St Mary's - What we might expect to see happen (and possibly announced soon)...

[suewhistle]

I'm sure you could make a slight tweak so that it isn't by putting more of the load on the new foundations if needed.

 

It doesn't matter. SMS was designed with expansion in mind.

[Wes Tender]

None of us really know what is being planned.

 

Comparing a football club to a discount airline or hotel group really is nuts, unless the headcount costs of Easyjet is running at 93% of turnover. Those business are run as close to the bone as is humanly possible, a business model that is as far removed from a football club as you can possibly get.

Only as far away as possible because the football club has the massive advantage that you ignore; that the fans will have far more loyalty to the brand than ever they would to the airline or the hotel group.

 

Being that we have been running massively under capacity this season, how come the club did so little to attract these little kiddie-winkie future supporters this season? We had 6,000 odd seats to play with for the last eight months or so to do just that.

 

Why do we have to build seats to get these loyal supporters of the future through the door when we could have been aiming for maxing out the stadium with them this season? Just asking. Nothing in anything Cortese has so far done has shown a particular desire to devalue his product to bring people in, so I doubt that kids for a quid or anything like it is particularly on his radar.

 

You answered your own question. He probably didn't want to devalue the product in this division. But when the increased capacity is available in the Premiership, then that will be the time to consider whether it is better to have a policy of reduced price tickets for the kids if the capacity for some bronze matches allows it.

 

And I can question Cortese if I like, just like people on here question Adkins, or players, or previous managers, or polititians or anything. It's an internet message board, I'm dishing out opinions as creatively as I can to wind people like you up. So point and laugh, at you, I will.

So I take it that the refusal to answer my enquiry about what qualifies you to question the financial astuteness of Cortese or the Liebherr family is probably because your qualifications would look stupid when compared against theirs. So point and laugh at you I will, until you come up with something more plausible as reasons to question their ambitions. Winding me up? I'm afraid not sonny.

[Matthew Le God]

Jesus MLG, why must you drag this up every now and again? It's been done to death.

 

Your best point ( and it's a bad one) is to point to what reading and wolves have done. We are not them so the reference is meaningless.

 

Why is it meaningless? Have you ever seen an episode of Dragon's Den? On numerous occasions they question what the competitors to the contestant's businesses are doing. It is entirely relevant for Saints to look at examples of expansions at other clubs to gage how it might work for them.

 

It's also been made clear that the return on the cost of expansion just isn't there.

 

Isn't it? Given enough time it would be, plus it raises the profile of the club, helps attract sponsors, players, fans and other revenue streams. Also it adds to the value of the company.

 

Our club nearly died as a result of expenditure above income, primarily on the back of a stadium.

 

St Mary's was originally funded by a mortgage and the chairman at the time put very little if any money into the club himself. Cortese/Liebherr don't do debt, the club is debt free and things are paid for outright.

 

We have been rescued by prudent business people who will not risk our future on a costly expansion that we do not need, and more importantly is not commercially viable.

 

Did we not need a £15m expansion of Staplewood and category one status? That was announced whilst Saints were in League One, being constructed whilst in the Championship and not funded by debt.

 

Explain why Cortese contradicts you then?

 

Have you listened to the BBC interview I linked to earlier? (listen from 36:00)

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/8565914.stm

 

Have you heard the feedback from the fans dinners?

Edited 19 April, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[CB Fry]

You very conveniently ignore the fact that we more than doubled our capacity when we moved from the Dell, if your logic had been applied we would have built a smaller stadium than we did.Ccontrolling supply when demand is high is a high risk strategy and not very common, why not have a 10k stadium (a lot less overhead) and charge £200 a seat? a bit far fetched i Know but it illustrates my point. I want to give the maximum number of fans the chance to watch the saints at affordable prices.

 

That's funny, when have I ever said anyhthing about St Mary's being too big, "my logic" is not being applied in your stupid example.

 

There are still people on here that say we should have moved to Stoneham (25k) and there was an absolute torrent of people saying that after we were relegated and they watched Pompey storm up the league with no infrastructure whatsoever - plenty then were saying our ground was too big for us then.

 

Increasing the £ per seat in the Premier League on zero revenue is a far, far, far, far lower risk than spunking god knows how much on capital expenditure on infrastructure that we may or may not need. All the "risk" is in your suggestions, not mine.

 

And managed, controlled supply is not "not very common" but it is very, very common. Most businesses I know do not go out to sell as much of their thing as is humanly possible. They go out to sell what they can make in the most profitable way possible. Apple could easily sell three times more ipads than they do now. But it almost certainly wouldn't make them more money. Controlled supply is a business principle in pretty much every walk of life from packets of crisps to Range Rovers.

 

Why don't we have a 100,000 capacity stadium on £2 a seat? We can all make dopey extrapolations.

[egg]

We've done this on other threads.

 

This is not dragons den. It's the real world.

 

The geography has been done to the death. We have a much lesser catchment area than most other clubs.

 

The return is simple arithmetic based on realistic ( not your pie in the sky 44k every game ) crowd numbers throughout the season in relation to development costs.

 

If it were likely we would sell 44k every week then great, but it won't happen. 44k against Wigan, Bolton,Blackburn, Swansea, Norwich etc ain't gonna happen. Man U and Man C would only come to town once a season and you do not expand for raritys.

 

Loans. We lost 33m last year. Yes it was converted to shares but we still lost it. That loss was incurred to get us up and looks like a risk that was worth taking and will give a massive return on promotion. Expansion won't give a return. Figures please.

 

Staplewood. I never mentioned it! Money well spent though. We have always developed players whether for us or profit. That facility, our existing stadium, track record and ambition will help attract great kids to justify (if needed) the cost.

Edited 19 April, 2012 by egg

[suewhistle]

You very conveniently ignore the fact that we more than doubled our capacity when we moved from the Dell, if your logic had been applied we would have built a smaller stadium than we did.

 

From 14k to 32k and we still often sold out (ignoring away allocations). Now NC will know how many different people have actually bought tickets this year, they'll have done market research and have a better idea than all of us what the potential is. They'll know their own plans for investment in the team, potential corporate revenue, etc. The last 4 games of the season at home are sell outs, we're averaging a deal more than Reading (let alone Wigan or QPR!) and even got 30k+ in Div 1. We've got tremendous potential (and Pompeys demise wont harm!). Success at Boro on Saturday and all of us overseas fans, the Tadanari fan club etc. will be watching on TV next season and boosting ad revenues. These guys aren't unrealistic Russian money-launderers; they may not succeed with all their plans but that won't be down to lack of professionalism.

[CB Fry]

 

Only as far away as possible because the football club has the massive advantage that you ignore; that the fans will have far more loyalty to the brand than ever they would to the airline or the hotel group.

 

You answered your own question. He probably didn't want to devalue the product in this division. But when the increased capacity is available in the Premiership, then that will be the time to consider whether it is better to have a policy of reduced price tickets for the kids if the capacity for some bronze matches allows it.

So I take it that the refusal to answer my enquiry about what qualifies you to question the financial astuteness of Cortese or the Liebherr family is probably because your qualifications would look stupid when compared against theirs. So point and laugh at you I will, until you come up with something more plausible as reasons to question their ambitions. Winding me up? I'm afraid not sonny.

 

 

Of course people have loyalty to a football club, that's why price hikes work, and running it like a discount airline would be ridiculous.

 

And of course, how silly of me. He's waiting until we get to the biggest league in the world, and waiting until we've spent £xx million on a gigantic capital expenditure project and then he'll start devaluing the product. Of course he will.

 

My qualifications is I understand supply and demand better than most of you divs on here, including you. You seem to think you are channelling Nicola Cortese's thoughts butyou have absolutely no idea he is planning reducing ticket prices to attract the kids on any kind of regular basis or that he looks at the club like a BMIBaby. Don't ever forget that you are speculating just as much as me sunshine.

[Frank's cousin]

Ha ha! For increased revenue, you need increased capacity. Not really, no.

 

Ha ha would you care to explain? Of course you can simply increase price in simple supply and demand terms, but this is fooball and there is already a feeling atht the empty seats at various grounds in teh prem is due to simple economics - folk dont have the spare cash at £40+ a ticket - extra capacity means more potential revnue at a lower price point... so what are you laughing at?

[CB Fry]

Ha ha would you care to explain? Of course you can simply increase price in simple supply and demand terms' date=' but this is fooball and there is already a feeling atht the empty seats at various grounds in teh prem is due to[b'] simple economics[/b] - folk dont have the spare cash at £40+ a ticket - extra capacity means more potential revnue at a lower price point... so what are you laughing at?

 

Folk don't have the spare cash at £40+ a ticket and there are empty seats, so lets spend lots more money on new seats and charge less for them.

 

Yes Frank, that is, without doubt, simple economics.

 

Christ almighty.

[Matthew Le God]

This is not dragons den. It's the real world.

 

Dragon's Den is the real world. Yes it a TV show, but they are still venture capitalists doing real deals and all venture capitalists would look at how rivals in the market are doing. Looking at Wolves, Reading etc makes very good business sense. I used Dragon's Den as a reference because people would be familiar with it, it is still relevant.

 

We have a much lesser catchment area than most other clubs.

 

Do we? Justify such a statement.

 

The return is simple arithmetic based on realistic ( not your pie in the sky 44k every game ) crowd numbers throughout the season in relation to development costs.

 

If it were likely we would sell 44k every week then great, but it won't happen. 44k against Wigan, Bolton,Blackburn, Swansea, Norwich etc ain't gonna happen. Man U and Man C would only come to town and you do not expand for raritys.

 

Why is it not equally "pie in the sky" to say Saints couldn't average 40k? Against sides similar to those you list Southampton have sold out before. If you can sell out that means there will be people left disappointed. Saints sold out in those games with Rupert Lowe as chairman not investing in the team.

 

Loans. We lost 33m last year.

 

No they didn't.

 

Yes it was converted to shares but we still lost it. That loss was incurred to get us up and looks like a risk that was worth taking and will give a massive return on promotion. Expansion won't give a return. Figures please.

 

That £33m was the total figure of investment by the Liebherr's from 2009 to 2011. It includes the cost of buying the club and everything else the Liebherr's spent.

 

Have you listened to the interview with the financial officer at the club? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17547804

 

I suggest that you do listen to it as you appear confused by the £33m. 50% of that money has gone on things that will increase future revenue, some of the rest has gone on things that are assets that have increased in value. The £33m is an investment, an investment that should Saints be promoted in the next 10 days will be a massive bargain.

Edited 19 April, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[sotonjoe]

There are other ways to increase revenue other than increase capacity. Instead, you try and get the same amount of people to spend more on a match day visit. This can be achieved through ticket prices as well as refreshments and other merchandise. I expect we'll see the much rumoured account card / pre pay card for match day refreshments soon which is intended to make it easier for fans to buy refreshments at the stadium, and should therefore see individuals spending more on each visit.

 

I honestly don't think we should be that preoccupied with investigating stadium expansion in the short term. The possibility of having an expanded stadium with significant costs, but then finding ourselves unable to fill it due to relegation or other factors, is a much worse set of circumstances than finding ourselves in the Prem and selling out all our home games.

[CB Fry]

There are other ways to increase revenue other than increase capacity. Instead, you try and get the same amount of people to spend more on a match day visit. This can be achieved through ticket prices as well as refreshments and other merchandise. I expect we'll see the much rumoured account card / pre pay card for match day refreshments soon which is intended to make it easier for fans to buy refreshments at the stadium, and should therefore see individuals spending more on each visit.

 

I honestly don't think we should be that preoccupied with investigating stadium expansion in the short term. The possibility of having an expanded stadium with significant costs, but then finding ourselves unable to fill it due to relegation or other factors, is a much worse set of circumstances than finding ourselves in the Prem and selling out all our home games.

 

Sensible comment alert. Unfortunately you will be set upon by simpletons who have decided that anyone saying anything they don't agree with must upload their CV and have it compared to a millionaire.

[Frank's cousin]

Loans. We lost 33m last year. Yes it was converted to shares but we still lost it. That loss was incurred to get us up and looks like a risk that was worth taking and will give a massive return on promotion. Expansion won't give a return. Figures please.

 

.

 

er no we did not - we 'lost' 18mil over the last 3 years - with the original purchace price of 15 mil being added to that to give 33 mil that has been converted to equity - no differnt form if they had spent 33 mil o buying teh club about to be promoted to the premier league.

 

Increased capacity only equates to increased revenues if you increase attendence - logical and you can increase attendence if the product is better value. Doing teh figures is for accountants, but the principles are straightforward. Even with the additional attraction of the premier league, there is a max sustainable price point in football - when you reach that, as we have seen at other clubs, you get empty seats. Capacity give you more flexibilty in terms of price point - the simple logic (excluding additional overheads for stewarding, policing and services) is simple 30k x £40 = 1.2mil max (but chances are you will never sell 30K at £40 so why not (20k x £30 + 10k x £35 10k x £25 = 1.2 mil - which is more likely... yes these are simple figures, but you get the drift - more fans equals greater spendin shops and concourses

Yes this is all potentially pipe dreams, but there is a comercail logic to expansion IF the fans are likely to repsaond to it with at an appropriate price point.

 

I have no idea whether NC was simply placating the media with grandiose statements, whether he belives its possible or not, but if I also dont believ they woudl enteratin such major investment if they had not done their homework - if it happens in teh future, you can bet NC will have done his sums and will make it work -

[Hatch]

I don't want this expansion bo!!ox, it's not the Southampton I know and love.

[egg]

Investment. Let's assume your correct that the 33m is that. That's not the issue. The topic is stadium expansion.

 

Crowds. Stupid question. The point is whether there is evidence that we will attract bigger crowds consistently. There is none.

 

Catchment. Look at a map. We can draw from 3 sides only. Folks won't come from pompey.

[egg]

There are other ways to increase revenue other than increase capacity. Instead, you try and get the same amount of people to spend more on a match day visit. This can be achieved through ticket prices as well as refreshments and other merchandise. I expect we'll see the much rumoured account card / pre pay card for match day refreshments soon which is intended to make it easier for fans to buy refreshments at the stadium, and should therefore see individuals spending more on each visit.

 

I honestly don't think we should be that preoccupied with investigating stadium expansion in the short term. The possibility of having an expanded stadium with significant costs, but then finding ourselves unable to fill it due to relegation or other factors, is a much worse set of circumstances than finding ourselves in the Prem and selling out all our home games.

 

FFs joe, common sense has no place on this site!

[doddisalegend]

From 14k to 32k and we still often sold out (ignoring away allocations). Now NC will know how many different people have actually bought tickets this year, they'll have done market research and have a better idea than all of us what the potential is. They'll know their own plans for investment in the team, potential corporate revenue, etc. The last 4 games of the season at home are sell outs, we're averaging a deal more than Reading (let alone Wigan or QPR!) and even got 30k+ in Div 1. We've got tremendous potential (and Pompeys demise wont harm!). Success at Boro on Saturday and all of us overseas fans, the Tadanari fan club etc. will be watching on TV next season and boosting ad revenues. These guys aren't unrealistic Russian money-launderers; they may not succeed with all their plans but that won't be down to lack of professionalism.

 

Well of course they are we are challegning to be champions....something we won't be doing in the PL. The club has a massive feel good factor we may carry that over in to the first season in the PL but after the novelty has worn of and were fighting it out to finish tenth I'm not so sure people will be so desperate to go espeically if ticket prices are going up.

[Frank's cousin]

Folk don't have the spare cash at £40+ a ticket and there are empty seats, so lets spend lots more money on new seats and charge less for them.

 

Yes Frank, that is, without doubt, simple economics.

 

Christ almighty.

 

Would you actually care to explain rather that patronise? If research were to show (and you can bet NC would carry out the necessary due diligence way before considering such future plans) that demnd wer there at an appropriate price point, and it was comemrcially viable, there is logic having greater flexibilty in a pricing model available to you. Of course it does not factor in the cost of the infrastructure development - but that is not what is being debated - its a simple case of whether there is actually a need. Would we get a 35 -40k average at a price point that provides a decent surplus? You tell me as you seem to be a 'master' of this economcs malarky.... Jeez...

[Doctoroncall]

Surely this is only one piece of the strategy that NC has considered and is dependent on the others. It will only happen if, firstly the success on the pitch is there, the southampton style is seen, and the player development continues to improve (shaw, ward-prowse, sinclair etc).

 

Give the fans something good to watch, home grown talent, perhaps a few stars and even a bit of success and they will come, otherwise it'll be like before a mid ranking club selling out a 32k stadium on most matches.

[Matthew Le God]

Would be a lot easier if you answered my replies point by point like I do in quotations!

 

Investment. Let's assume your correct that the 33m is that.

 

Listen to the interview.

 

Crowds. Stupid question. The point is whether there is evidence that we will attract bigger crowds consistently. There is none.

 

What evidence did Rupert Lowe have when we were at the Dell? That it was selling out each game? Well that is what we had at St Mary's between 2001 and 2005. It is also what we will have in 2012/13. Heck, we even have in the Championship, our last 4 games of the season have been soldout.

 

Catchment. Look at a map. We can draw from 3 sides only.

 

That is a very naive way to look at it. The phrase you used was "We have a much lesser catchment area than most other clubs". Putting aside for a moment the poor English, you still haven't even come close to justifying that statement yet.

Edited 19 April, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[CB Fry]

Would you actually care to explain rather that patronise? If research were to show (and you can bet NC would carry out the necessary due diligence way before considering such future plans) that demnd wer there at an appropriate price point' date=' and it was comemrcially viable, there is logic having greater flexibilty in a pricing model available to you.[b'] Of course it does not factor in the cost of the infrastructure development - but that is not what is being debated [/b]- its a simple case of whether there is actually a need. Would we get a 35 -40k average at a price point that provides a decent surplus? You tell me as you seem to be a 'master' of this economcs malarky.... Jeez...

 

Well, I am debating the cost of the infrastructure development, because it would cost a lot of money. You don't need to be a "master" of ecomics to understand that.

 

And what any sensible business does not do is establish the need by spending a load of money on infrastructure and hoping.

[CLOTH EARS]

There is little doubt that NC is ambitious, Staplewood attests to this. There have been many posts on here about catchment area and potential, expansion has little to do with us current fans it is all about new fans and armchair fans. Whilst the ubber fans will moan and criticise it is this constituency that must be cattered for and attracted to the SM and the only way is to provide more opportunity to get tickets. The Reading plans are of real significance to us, our catchment areas overlap and non committed fans who want to watch premiership football will watch the club that provides easiest access and the best facilities. When we moved from the Dell few thought we would average over 30k (in the prem) at SM, they got that wrong, the only way we will find out what level of support we can sustain is to expand and expand as soon as possible.

 

I remember all those who said that a 32.000 stadium would be to big and we'd never fill it...and we did!!!( that lot along the coast were also saying it ), We filled St Marys nigh on everyweek between 2001 & 2005. IF the club are showing genuine ambition then new fans will be attracted to fill the extra space. Someone on this thread commented that we'd need to charge quids for kids to fill an expanded stadium, i think that is a little OTT, there does have to be a balance somehow between a pricing policy that works and ambition on the field. I think we all know that next season ( if we go up ) you will not get much change out of £40 for 1st team home games if you buy on a match to match basis, but in a couple of years in a 45000 stadium could could offer a discount for loyalty scheme of some sort, especialy for ST holders but we Can offer discounts to new fans too to entice them from their armchairs. It can be done where the club raise a decent revenue and the supporters feel as if they are getting something also. Imagination is what is needed.

[Frank's cousin]

Sensible comment alert. Unfortunately you will be set upon by simpletons who have decided that anyone saying anything they don't agree with must upload their CV and have it compared to a millionaire.

 

You really are pathetic at times.... yes that post was totally sensible - of course that is the logical way to increase revenue.. but it also has a ceiling as individual punters all have their limits and prices and merchandising/food and beverage sales tended to remain static at most games whether we sold out or not when last in the prem. in part because of max capaicty/queues etc, in part because there are only a certain number of folk willing to risk the cruddy pies.

 

I have no idea whether we could regularly get a 40K gate in the prem or not, none whatsoever, and no one is advocating spalshing 60-100mil tomorrow on a new stadum or expansion on the off chance. But why some of you fly off the handle and act all superior simply because some which to discuss the possibilties of this is beyond me. Feckin laughable you sat there going 'how dare they suggest this is again, have they no economic brain, we dont have the fan base blah blah blah' - football has ALWAYs been about dreams and aspirations for your club, without them its pointless. Yes we alll like to assume the club is bigger than the realistic gate receipts suggest and if only we had success we would fill a bigger ground....etc.

 

But whose to say we would not or do you feel that selling out 32K for most weeks when last in the prem was our max possible for all games?

[egg]

Mate that is a ridiculous response. Not one point deals with the issues. If you want/need the last word then please be my guest. If you have a fragment of logic or evidence to support what you say please post it.

[Frank's cousin]

Well, I am debating the cost of the infrastructure development, because it would cost a lot of money. You don't need to be a "master" of ecomics to understand that.

 

And what any sensible business does not do is establish the need by spending a load of money on infrastructure and hoping.

 

And do you believe that any sensible business would carry out infrastructure development without due diligence? Do you belive that NC would sanction such a 'risky startegy' - Do you not think that those who are encouraged by anecdotal quotes, might also be realistic enough to appreciate that due diligence would be necessary?

 

Any infrastructure development is as you say and major investment - but there IS the issue of 'predicting demand' and ensuring the business is set up to service it rather than losing potential revenue whilst you try and catch up with production.

 

How it is funded is a different matter, but given the desire to see a self sustaining club that is competitive (NCs words not mine), its not beyond the realms of possibilty that there is provison in MLs will for such investment... I dont know, but its a thought

[Doctoroncall]

But whose to say we would not or do you feel that selling out 32K for most weeks when last in the prem was our max possible for all games?

 

It's a question of whether the other components of NCs plan is a success. If that does not happen, is there any point of expansion just for an extra 3,000 or so. I just cannot see a reason for expansion to 45-50k if nothing else changes.

[Matthew Le God]

Mate that is a ridiculous response. Not one point deals with the issues. If you want/need the last word then please be my guest. If you have a fragment of logic or evidence to support what you say please post it.

 

I answered all of your points in posts #103, #110 and #120

 

In those posts I asked you a number of questions which you still are yet to answer. It really isn't that hard to break down posts into quotations like I did in #103, #110 and #120. Would be interesting to see you reply to all of them.

[sotonjoe]

You really are pathetic at times.... yes that post was totally sensible - of course that is the logical way to increase revenue.. but it also has a ceiling as individual punters all have their limits and prices and merchandising/food and beverage sales tended to remain static at most games whether we sold out or not when last in the prem. in part because of max capaicty/queues etc, in part because there are only a certain number of folk willing to risk the cruddy pies.

 

I have no idea whether we could regularly get a 40K gate in the prem or not, none whatsoever, and no one is advocating spalshing 60-100mil tomorrow on a new stadum or expansion on the off chance. But why some of you fly off the handle and act all superior simply because some which to discuss the possibilties of this is beyond me. Feckin laughable you sat there going 'how dare they suggest this is again, have they no economic brain, we dont have the fan base blah blah blah' - football has ALWAYs been about dreams and aspirations for your club, without them its pointless. Yes we alll like to assume the club is bigger than the realistic gate receipts suggest and if only we had success we would fill a bigger ground....etc.

 

But whose to say we would not or do you feel that selling out 32K for most weeks when last in the prem was our max possible for all games?

 

You're right there is a ceiling to what people will spend. I think what I'm hoping is that the club would be happy that they had done what they could to extract the most cash from supporters on match days and decided that those revenue streams were insufficient before commiting themselves to a programme of stadium expansion.

 

I think we'd all like to sees Saints in a bigger stadium with bigger crowds, but I just think that some people are getting caught up in the excitement of this idea and are demanding it way too early. One of the interesting things that has come up in my discussions with other football fans is that attendances really aren't the be all and end all when it comes to revenue like they once were. I'm not saying they are not important, but alongside the measures I've already referred to which could increase an individual's match day spend, there are other ways the club could increase revenue. Of course, the TV money in the Prem is key, but merchandising is also massive, especially in emerging international markets. Sorting out shirt distribution in the Far East and hoping that Tadanari starts banging them in in the Prem could prove significant.

 

So yeh, I'm sure we'll do something with regards to capacity or a new ground in the future, but I think we need to concentrate on securing a Prem position and maximising other revenue streams before we commit to expansion plans. Regular capacity crowds of 32.5k plus healthy additional revenue streams should really be enough to see us cement a Premiership place as long as we've got the right personnel in place to know how to guide our club. I'd be surprised if we saw things happens with regards to stadium expansion before we'd been in the Prem for three years; and I don't mean some mickey mouse document like Reading made!

[Frank's cousin]

Mate that is a ridiculous response. Not one point deals with the issues. If you want/need the last word then please be my guest. If you have a fragment of logic or evidence to support what you say please post it.

 

hey? Nothing to do with ahving a last word... the issues are simple - do we have demand? Y/N, do we have demand at what price point Y/N? Is that price point sustainable and enough to generate increased revenues when the infrastructure development cost is factored in over x years? Y/N, Is the investment requires sustainable if revenues fall such as on relegation etc Y/N - thos eare very simple questions. Its all very well dismissing the concept of expansion, but those suggesting its foolhardy have yet to provide any 'data' to suggest they have the answers either.

[sotonjoe]

FFs joe, common sense has no place on this site!

 

Only when the souper fans aren't around me old mucker.

[Matthew Le God]

It's a question of whether the other components of NCs plan is a success. If that does not happen, is there any point of expansion just for an extra 3,000 or so. I just cannot see a reason for expansion to 45-50k if nothing else changes.

 

Expanding the stadium will help Cortese achieve other components in the overall plan, they are interconnected and isn't a simple matter of doing one then moving on to another. Just like the spending of £15m on Staplewood will help other areas of the club i.e. recruitment of players at first team and youth level.

[sotonjoe]

Sensible comment alert. Unfortunately you will be set upon by simpletons who have decided that anyone saying anything they don't agree with must upload their CV and have it compared to a millionaire.

 

 

Oh well!

[Frank's cousin]

It's a question of whether the other components of NCs plan is a success. If that does not happen, is there any point of expansion just for an extra 3,000 or so. I just cannot see a reason for expansion to 45-50k if nothing else changes.

 

True, there has to be sufficient progress in all areas to provide a product of superior quality capable of sustained success to ensure sustained demand at a decent price point - all very logical and no one is suggesting otherwise - just that its a worthwhile discussion bevcause so much else is rasied by it - IF NC is serious in his words, what will he do to ensure we get to that point where expansion could be realistically considered? Thats the interesting part and I dont believe any of us know that right now - step one is the development of Staplewood. If that bares fruit then I for one am looking forward to step 2 whatever that may be.

[Frank's cousin]

You're right there is a ceiling to what people will spend. I think what I'm hoping is that the club would be happy that they had done what they could to extract the most cash from supporters on match days and decided that those revenue streams were insufficient before commiting themselves to a programme of stadium expansion.

 

I think we'd all like to sees Saints in a bigger stadium with bigger crowds, but I just think that some people are getting caught up in the excitement of this idea and are demanding it way too early. One of the interesting things that has come up in my discussions with other football fans is that attendances really aren't the be all and end all when it comes to revenue like they once were. I'm not saying they are not important, but alongside the measures I've already referred to which could increase an individual's match day spend, there are other ways the club could increase revenue. Of course, the TV money in the Prem is key, but merchandising is also massive, especially in emerging international markets. Sorting out shirt distribution in the Far East and hoping that Tadanari starts banging them in in the Prem could prove significant.

 

So yeh, I'm sure we'll do something with regards to capacity or a new ground in the future, but I think we need to concentrate on securing a Prem position and maximising other revenue streams before we commit to expansion plans. Regular capacity crowds of 32.5k plus healthy additional revenue streams should really be enough to see us cement a Premiership place as long as we've got the right personnel in place to know how to guide our club. I'd be surprised if we saw things happens with regards to stadium expansion before we'd been in the Prem for three years; and I don't mean some mickey mouse document like Reading made!

 

OK thats all fair and well reasoned - but I think there is some confusion with respect to timeframe here. I dont believe even the OP was suggesting tomorrow as a date for getting the spades out. These sort of investment plans take years in planning (literally) especilly given our situation/location etc - even if archtects had plans drawup tomorrow and all duediligence was done, we still would be unlikey to to see an opening befor 2018/19 and thats asuming we would WANT to start planning tomorrow. The irony though in your post (although the logic is sound) is that 'extracting every last penny form fans before such plans are considered' goes against what many fans/customers would expect. Its a cultural thing maybe in football, but many fans dont like the idea that they are being exploited in such a way. Sure its naive to think anything else, but it still makes many uncomfortable, and no business should ignore the opinions of its customers.

 

If we stay up for 3 years and see progress - the quality of the 'product' improve, and demand reach capacity, then I am sure that preliminary conceptual plans amy be made and appropriate feasibilty studies conducted. Until then, fans like nothing more than seeing mocked up archtectual drawings and grandiose staements - its feeds the dream, feeds the excitement and what are football fans but a bunch of dreamers?

[sotonjoe]

OK thats all fair and well reasoned - but I think there is some confusion with respect to timeframe here. I dont believe even the OP was suggesting tomorrow as a date for getting the spades out. These sort of investment plans take years in planning (literally) especilly given our situation/location etc - even if archtects had plans drawup tomorrow and all duediligence was done, we still would be unlikey to to see an opening befor 2018/19 and thats asuming we would WANT to start planning tomorrow. The irony though in your post (although the logic is sound) is that 'extracting every last penny form fans before such plans are considered' goes against what many fans/customers would expect. Its a cultural thing maybe in football, but many fans dont like the idea that they are being exploited in such a way. Sure its naive to think anything else, but it still makes many uncomfortable, and no business should ignore the opinions of its customers.

 

If we stay up for 3 years and see progress - the quality of the 'product' improve, and demand reach capacity, then I am sure that preliminary conceptual plans amy be made and appropriate feasibilty studies conducted. Until then, fans like nothing more than seeing mocked up archtectual drawings and grandiose staements - its feeds the dream, feeds the excitement and what are football fans but a bunch of dreamers?

 

I agree. Of course, maximising revenue means maximising it without the fans moaning that they're being ripped off. If you get that far, then the club have gone too far in trying to extract cash from people!

 

[There's room here for somebody to insert a sarcastic comment about car parking charges or booking fees if they feel it appropriate]

[egg]

I answered all of your points in posts #103, #110 and #120

 

In those posts I asked you a number of questions which you still are yet to answer. It really isn't that hard to break down posts into quotations like I did in #103, #110 and #120. Would be interesting to see you reply to all of them.

 

I can't be arsed to respond point by point. I'm sure I've dealt with your points but if I haven't please clarify but do remember the issue is simply whether we need to expand our stadium, nothing else.

[Frank's cousin]

I agree. Of course, maximising revenue means maximising it without the fans moaning that they're being ripped off. If you get that far, then the club have gone too far in trying to extract cash from people!

 

[There's room here for somebody to insert a sarcastic comment about car parking charges or booking fees if they feel it appropriate]

 

Well ...its interesting when some talk of maximising revenues...as it was not that long ago that a certain ex chaiman invested in a radio station that when purchased had potential for increased advertising revenues, and set up an insurance service, and went on about the quality of the catering in the corpoartes to attact more into the expensive seats... see that's the problem, we dont like non football revenue streams, even if teh investment to set them up is minmal - its a 'distraction' - why many on her and older forums also complained about the 1.6mil a year it cost to run the academy - that gave us bridge, bale, walcott Surman... players sold ye, but players sold for close to 25 mil - they would have rather seem that 1.6 mil dissappear into the pockets of players - so we need to be careful with such business strategies;)

[Micky]

Ahhh the good old stadium expansion thread - AGAIN. I am amazed that we are now well into page 3 based on the fact that Reading have some tentative plans to upgrade their stadium - mind boggling.

[sotonjoe]

Well ...its interesting when some talk of maximising revenues...as it was not that long ago that a certain ex chaiman invested in a radio station that when purchased had potential for increased advertising revenues' date=' and set up an insurance service, and went on about the quality of the catering in the corpoartes to attact more into the expensive seats... see that's the problem, we dont like non football revenue streams, even if teh investment to set them up is minmal - its a 'distraction' - why many on her and older forums also complained about the 1.6mil a year it cost to run the academy - that gave us bridge, bale, walcott Surman... players sold ye, but players sold for close to 25 mil - they would have rather seem that 1.6 mil dissappear into the pockets of players - so we need to be careful with such business strategies;)[/quote']

 

You're right to make some links between the Cortese regime and the Lowe one; I've often thought that myself. I don't think it's a case of what we like as football fans with regards to football club business models, I think it's more to do with making sure off the pitch matters are balanced with on the pitch matters. I don't think many people would have been complaining vociferously about the Lowe regime had he continued to deliver the goods on the pitch post-2003.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with Cortese implementing a similar strategy ( and I think he is clearly doing that with talk of home grown players dominating the squad and significant training ground investment), but he has to ensure that he invests in the playing squad in the short term before the long term investments bear fruit. Lowe took his eye off the ball (excuse the pun) in this regard, signing a whole host of below standard players between the Cup final and when we went down, and this is fundamentally why his rule turned sour. Anyway, enough of the Dark Lord!

[CB Fry]

Lets all remember that , this season, with 6,000 odd seats to fill for many games, there has been little, essentially none at all, in the way of "flexible pricing" to increase gates.

 

Why you people think Cortese is going to spend fifteen million quid on seats and THEN introduce it I struggle to understand. Lots of talk about increased burger sales in the Cortesedome but again not a something we went for this season when we had ample opportunity. Any ideas, geniuses?

[Pilchards]

I got the impression that a great business man will always look at ways to raise his companies profits in the long term?

Larger stadium, more people, more merchandise sold, better players attracted etc.

Yeah why not?

 

I remember last season he said we will go up as champions, I laughed as I thought he was mad.

Edited 20 April, 2012 by Pilchards

[Panda]

An interesting debate, despite the usual personal acrimony between posters and no doubt I will attract some too!

 

The fact is we have too little information but the club will certainly have it. In general though, the difference is surely going to be whether we have to borrow to expand (as RL had to) and pay interest or whether we have people with the money to invest and create a return on that investment (per ML model).

 

For example, IF it costs another £15m to expand SMS and I want a return of 15% per annum I am looking for additional income generation of £2.25m per season. If the average spend per person per game is, say £40 with programmes, refreshments, etc on top of ticket then I need to increase the average attendance by 1400 people a game more than it would be if the stadium was not expanded. If ten times a season we go over the current capacity to around 38k we would get the return we want.

 

Whether that is what happens will depend on NC and the Leibhier funds chosen strategy.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

It worked for Sunderland...

[CB Fry]

Just remembered Cortese's big idea this season to increase gates for unattractive games.

 

It was to force people to buy a second ticket at full price if they wanted to buy a derby game ticket.

 

Which is as far from " kids for quid because children are the fans of the future" as you can possibly get.

 

We may be planning to expand sometime. But people need to forget the idea that we are doing it to make tickets cheaper for everyone.

[Thedelldays]

Lets all remember that , this season, with 6,000 odd seats to fill for many games, there has been little, essentially none at all, in the way of "flexible pricing" to increase gates.

 

Why you people think Cortese is going to spend fifteen million quid on seats and THEN introduce it I struggle to understand. Lots of talk about increased burger sales in the Cortesedome but again not a something we went for this season when we had ample opportunity. Any ideas, geniuses?

 

Dunno

But not many predicted then just writing off all of £33m did they

 

I always go down the line of a bigger SMS will simply mean a bigger average attendance at the very least. Which is a certainty

[egg]

hey? Nothing to do with ahving a last word... the issues are simple - do we have demand? Y/N' date=' do we have demand at what price point Y/N? Is that price point sustainable and enough to generate increased revenues when the infrastructure development cost is factored in over x years? Y/N, Is the investment requires sustainable if revenues fall such as on relegation etc Y/N - thos eare very simple questions. Its all very well dismissing the concept of expansion, but those suggesting its foolhardy have yet to provide any 'data' to suggest they have the answers either.[/quote']

 

Not intended for you.

[Wes Tender]

Would you actually care to explain rather that patronise? If research were to show (and you can bet NC would carry out the necessary due diligence way before considering such future plans) that demnd wer there at an appropriate price point' date=' and it was comemrcially viable, there is logic having greater flexibilty in a pricing model available to you. Of course it does not factor in the cost of the infrastructure development - but that is not what is being debated - its a simple case of whether there is actually a need. Would we get a 35 -40k average at a price point that provides a decent surplus? You tell me as you seem to be a 'master' of this economcs malarky.... Jeez...[/quote']

 

He certainly gets the award for most patronising poster on here, doesn't he? And we are to take it that he knows more about supply and demand than the average poster on here. Although he is a bit cagey about how this extensive knowledge has been acquired, he is confident that his prowess in this area qualifies him to know better what will work for the future of this club than either the people running it, or the owners and those who are probably hired as consultants to advise them. Perhaps he ought to approach the club and offer his services as a consultant, considering that his expansive knowledge of supply and demand is better than most peoples'.

 

There really is no point in debating this stadium expansion further, as CB Fry has already made up his mind that it is a waste of effort.

[Joensuu]

I can understand the passion of arguing for a larger capacity, but what motivates those who argue against it? Is it spite? Is it just for sake of having an argument?

 

Also don't forget money spent on tangible assets will be written off as shares. This means an increased hypothetical sale price, and increased revenues each season until then. I think it more likely than not that our capacity will increase in the next 5 years.

[Thedelldays]

He certainly gets the award for most patronising poster on here, doesn't he? And we are to take it that he knows more about supply and demand than the average poster on here. Although he is a bit cagey about how this extensive knowledge has been acquired, he is confident that his prowess in this area qualifies him to know better what will work for the future of this club than either the people running it, or the owners and those who are probably hired as consultants to advise them. Perhaps he ought to approach the club and offer his services as a consultant, considering that his expansive knowledge of supply and demand is better than most peoples'.

 

There really is no point in debating this stadium expansion further, as CB Fry has already made up his mind that it is a waste of effort.

 

Can't see why it would be a waste of time. A bigger SMS would mean more fans going through the turnstiles every season. That would be a fact

 

We will have what... 18 home games. I would say we would have at 12 sell outs

Let's say 6-8 of those sell outs could have sold another 4k at least

 

Then our average attendance would rocket which is good.

 

I doubt they plan all this on whether we will sell out against Wigan or not

[Wes Tender]

Just remembered Cortese's big idea this season to increase gates for unattractive games.

 

It was to force people to buy a second ticket at full price if they wanted to buy a derby game ticket.

 

Which is as far from " kids for quid because children are the fans of the future" as you can possibly get.

 

We may be planning to expand sometime. But people need to forget the idea that we are doing it to make tickets cheaper for everyone.

 

Did anybody suggest "kids for a quid" anywhere in this debate? I must have missed it.

 

Did anybody suggest the notion that the expansion of the stadium was for the pourpose of making tickets cheaper for everyone? Again, I must have missed it.