Kristallnacht today- and lessons.

[hypochondriac]

I'm sure you're not a Little Englander but I am genuinely interested why you feel the need to 'celebrate' it?

 

Nothing wrong with celebrating your country. Patriotism is a good thing. To call it "un-English" is just ridiculous stereotyping.

[Robsk II]

OK - out of interest - can you explain why being patriotic is inherently a good thing?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I'm sure you're not a Little Englander but I am genuinely interested why you feel the need to 'celebrate' it?

 

I presume that this question could be asked of anybody?

 

Might it be that even though one might settle in a country other than the one of your origin you might feel an enhanced affinity to your birth country? Which may be the reason that we perceive other nationalities celebrating their nationality,individuality, high days and holidays more openly than we do?

 

Do we ask why we feel the need to celebrate our nationality because we, as a nation generally, are rather laid back about things?

 

I feel that we should be able to celebrate our nationality, heritage and culture without having to justify it to anybody. What needs questioning, maybe, would be the manner in which we do so?

 

Remember back only a few years, how the crowds gathered in London to celebrate the Queen's Golden (?) Jubilee. I'm not a Royalist but it was nice to see all those happy, smiling faces. Celebrating our culture.

 

Celebrating is one thing, preventing it from being hijacked by Rabid Right Wingers or Us Loony Lefties for our own political ends is another matter

[Guest Hacienda]

OK - out of interest - can you explain why being patriotic is inherently a good thing?

 

One could argue that it celebrates a sense of shared beliefs that manifest themselves as a cultural identity and those shared beliefs bond people together.

[miserableoldgit]

I'm sure you're not a Little Englander but I am genuinely interested why you feel the need to 'celebrate' it?

I suppose it depends on your interpretation of "celebrate". Is showing love of ones country and culture celebrating? I am English. I love what this country stands for.I am proud of (most) of our history. I love the English psyche so if saying all this is celebrating my country then I am celebrating as much as a Saints fan celebrates his team by wearing a red and white striped shirt.

[stthrobber]

I agree with the first bit but the rest is just ******** (as is most of the ****e written in this thread). Where are your figures to show that female circumcision is 'common practice'? Sensationalist nonsense.

 

You're right there are racists in every country - and probably more so in Japan and China than many others but this might have something to do with the fact that they were culturally isolated from the rest of the world until the early 20th century - their choice but nevertheless they're playing catch up in the tolerance stakes. Anyway, your point is what? That they're really racist so it's OK if we're a bit racist?

 

The reason most people don't celebrate St George's Day is because we don't need to. We haven't been colonised or conquered (not for nearly a 1000 years anyway) and we haven't been oppressed as a people. St Patrick's Day is widely celebrated precisely because the Irish have been colonised and oppressed - they have a need to express their identity. FWIW I have a lot of Irish blood in my family but I couldn't give a **** about St Patrick's Day - I was born in England and am English and find it a bit cringeworthy when people suddenly proclaim themselves Irish.

 

Likewise with the US - very patriotic, mainly because they are a young nation and unsure of their place in the world - give them a few hundred years (or 4 years of Obama) and that might be more bearable and a bit less insecure.

 

I love living in England - warm beer, milk maids, cricket greens and all that and I would shed every last drop of blood for my country if it was invaded but I don't need to shout it from the rooftops. It's embarrassing and very un-English.

 

Of course I can't produce figures to show it's common just as you can not produce figures to show it isn't. It is their custom to do this and it happens over here. For you to dismiss it as "sensationalist nonsense" shows your ignorance. I suppose you'll be telling me next that young girls of Bangladeshi and Pakistani backgrounds are not routinely forced to marry people not of their choosing, and often whisked out of this country against their will to do it?

 

For info Japan has had outsiders in their lands for several hundred years. They chose not to adapt to the ways of the outsiders until last century, but that didn't mean they were isolated. I can't comment on Chinese history as I don't know much about it, but having many years in Hong Kong I certainly do know about their psyche and their customs.

 

I'm not saying racism is acceptable anywhere, but it seems that it's only in this country that it we are having our laws and customs gradually eroded and without that, we begin to lose our identity.

 

I'm not talking about shouting our Britishness from the rooftops, I'm talking about not letting our Britishness disappear from our country. I say Britishness because I live in Wales where St David's Day is well celebrated and I see nothing wrong in celebrating St George's day. I couldn't shout it from the rooftops here as the English are routinely disliked

[TopGun]

To be honest the Kristallnacht episode was something that I may not have understood properly when I was at school but here are some fairly horrifying images of the Jewish extermination program that followed in WWII in Germany, Poland and Russia.

 

They were mainly committed by the Einsatzgruppen who were a specialist Jewish genocide unit Hitler and his cohorts put together. I imagine a number of the perpetrators were not identified and tried after 1945 and could still be alive now.

 

 

 

Edited 14 November, 2008 by TopGun

[Robsk II]

One could argue that it celebrates a sense of shared beliefs that manifest themselves as a cultural identity and those shared beliefs bond people together.

 

Indeed one could. The problem with this, for me, is that it seems a lot of beliefs I hold, and that I believe to be quite British in many ways, are not held by an increasing number of people. I am British, though, as are they. I am patriotic in a way that is different to some. I support the values I hold to be British over the country itself - that is true patriotism on my view. This is why I do not support military action I deem unjust or not needed, for example. Blindly following your country - read government or whatever - isn't really doing the best thing for the country. If a dictator took over this country waving the flag, and I resisted, I would be labelled a traitor and anti-British, perhaps - yet I would believe I was being quite the opposite. A real patriot.

[Guest Hacienda]

Indeed one could. The problem with this, for me, is that it seems a lot of beliefs I hold, and that I believe to be quite British in many ways, are not held by an increasing number of people. I am British, though, as are they. I am patriotic in a way that is different to some. I support the values I hold to be British over the country itself - that is true patriotism on my view.

 

This is why I do not support military action I deem unjust or not needed, for example. Blindly following your country - read government or whatever - isn't really doing the best thing for the country.

 

If a dictator took over this country waving the flag, and I resisted, I would be labelled a traitor and anti-British, perhaps - yet I would believe I was being quite the opposite. A real patriot.

 

The millions who took to the streets in the anti war protests over Iraq (myself included) are no less patriotic than those who didn't so I cannot see the relevance of the point you raised.

[Robsk II]

I never mentioned any specific conflict. I know you love being contrary at all possible opportunities but that wasn't one. I also think you fail to see my point. I was actually suggesting that those who support British values rather than British policy could be considered more patriotic - so I would support or resist policy based on what I think of it, and also whether it matches the values I, as a Briton, hold dear. I wouldn't support it just because Britain did it, as I would deem that to be less patriotic - just jingoistic.

[TheCholulaKid]

Of course I can't produce figures to show it's common just as you can not produce figures to show it isn't. It is their custom to do this and it happens over here. For you to dismiss it as "sensationalist nonsense" shows your ignorance.

 

I'm not talking about shouting our Britishness from the rooftops, I'm talking about not letting our Britishness disappear from our country. I say Britishness because I live in Wales where St David's Day is well celebrated and I see nothing wrong in celebrating St George's day. I couldn't shout it from the rooftops here as the English are routinely disliked

 

Quite frankly, it's not up to me to show any figures. It was your (ludicrous) statement - you back it up. If you haven't got anything to back it up with then I think I'm quite justified in calling it sensationalist nonsense. It's exactly that kind of reactionary nonsense that has the more feeble minded baying for blood.

 

As for the Welsh - it refers back to my previous post - they've been oppressed for centuries hence their enthusiasm for celebrating St David's Day. Unless I'm mistaken the English haven't been oppressed or threatened in recent centuries or am I missing something? (85% of the population refer to themselves as British White btw, according to the 2001 census)

 

I thoroughly enjoyed Bonfire night in the company of several thousand people in Lewes this year celebrating something that has a history peculiar to England of hundreds of years - I also saw people of different ethnic origin enjoying themselves there too. It was great.

[Robsk II]

As a kind of intermediary between StT and TCK.. some countries in Africa do still have a high prevalence of the practise of female circumcision.

 

 

FGC is an umbrella term for female genital cutting, and it takes place to varying degrees of severity. Some is relatively unobtrusive, some if, from a Western viewpoint, barbaric. Also, Africa is not the only place it occurs - Iraq, Iran, Syria etc all still have communities which do this, for example. Also Egypt! Guinea, Eritrea and the Sudan have 90% + prevalence.

 

So this is at least largely fact.

 

The original statement:

 

"Do people here realise that it is a custom for Somalis to cut off the ****oris of their daughters, and this is a common practice over here that is carried out in crude conditions, but it's their custom, so where do we draw the line? In some countries it is acceptable and common practice for children to get married and have children when they reach puberty, yet we find it distasteful and horrific."

 

As it happens, Somalia isn't generally held to be one of the nations where it is prevelent, so maybe that part isn't accurate - but certainly it is acceptable, if sometimes taboo, in many countries (though in most, there is also groing opposition). So going back to your point, yes - where do we draw the line? Ultimately, we have every right to not do it here and not consider it valid or acceptable here. Do we have the right to force other nations to stop doing it? Setting ourselves up as the best moral force in the world, the most advanced culture, etc.. is dangerous business. We've often only intervened in places for economic or politcal reasons, and then used humanitarianism - and examples of abuses etc - as an excuse.

[TheCholulaKid]

I never queried the fact that it happens abroad. More the fact the Throbber said it was common practice here - in some way suggesting that Somalis are bringing their multitude of revolting practices here and inflicting them upon the rest of us. I've no doubt that there are cases of it happening over here but using terms such as 'common practice' is misguided at best and dangerous at worst.

 

Clearly it's not something we want going on here (or anywhere for that matter) but statements like that breed prejudice (unfortunately).

[Mole]

I love the old Pathe news reels - makes you proud to be British. The following catalogue our struggle against Mau Mau terrorists. Subsequently we set up concentration camps like the NAZI's. Were we so wrong to do this? I'm don't think so as we were only protecting our imperial rights in Kenya. Yes we were harsh, but our methods were needed to preserve peace in the colony.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ktWxdPH6naI

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5EWbJthDQNc&feature=related

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eL-YpRQbj3c&feature=related

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7JGSFZ7BunE&feature=related

[Guest Hacienda]

I never mentioned any specific conflict. I know you love being contrary at all possible opportunities but that wasn't one. I also think you fail to see my point. I was actually suggesting that those who support British values rather than British policy could be considered more patriotic - so I would support or resist policy based on what I think of it, and also whether it matches the values I, as a Briton, hold dear. I wouldn't support it just because Britain did it, as I would deem that to be less patriotic - just jingoistic.

 

How does being patriotic mean supporting policy as opposed to values?

 

Where has anyone said that to be patriotic you must blindly support policy?

[Guest Hacienda]

I never queried the fact that it happens abroad. More the fact the Throbber said it was common practice here - in some way suggesting that Somalis are bringing their multitude of revolting practices here and inflicting them upon the rest of us. I've no doubt that there are cases of it happening over here but using terms such as 'common practice' is misguided at best and dangerous at worst.

 

Clearly it's not something we want going on here (or anywhere for that matter) but statements like that breed prejudice (unfortunately).

 

There was a C4 programme earlier this year, or last year, about this and the conclusions were that in large sections of the Somali population in the UK it was still a fairly common practice.

 

They had film of it ( a young UK girl) and I had to turn it off.

 

The reporter was a female Somali.

 

Disgusting practice.

[Robsk II]

How does being patriotic mean supporting policy as opposed to values?

 

Where has anyone said that to be patriotic you must blindly support policy?

 

Stop being so mindlessly agressive to anything anyone else says. If you bothered to infer meaning instead of venting your vitriol so mindlessly, you would understand that what I'm saying is this: Many people do consider supporting the actions of a country - ie the government, etc... to be patriotic, whether here or abroad. If one does or says anything against actions suppossedly carried out 'under the flag' then some misguided people consider that always to be unpatriotic... In various wars, governments and so-called patriots have lambasted war protesters and so on as enemies of the state even though the protesters would say that their view more accurately represented the founding ideals of the nation. Vietnam protesters were routinely described as 'un-american', 'reds' and so on.

[Guest Hacienda]

Stop being so mindlessly agressive to anything anyone else says. If you bothered to infer meaning instead of venting your vitriol so mindlessly, you would understand that what I'm saying is this: Many people do consider supporting the actions of a country - ie the government, etc... to be patriotic, whether here or abroad. If one does or says anything against actions suppossedly carried out 'under the flag' then some misguided people consider that always to be unpatriotic... In various wars, governments and so-called patriots have lambasted war protesters and so on as enemies of the state even though the protesters would say that their view more accurately represented the founding ideals of the nation. Vietnam protesters were routinely described as 'un-american', 'reds' and so on.

 

The simple fact is you don't like your pathetically leftie views challenged.

 

You've decided that patriotic means blindly following the governments decisions, which is frankly ******s, but most of the things you post are ******s so it comes as no surprise.

[Robsk II]

If you read what I was saying AT ALL instead of sticking your nazi fingers in your ears, you thick f*ck, you'd understand by now that this is exactly NOT my point. There's no point in entering into a discussion or debate with you whatsoever because you're just retarded.

 

I have DECIDED that patriotism is in fact NOT about blindly following any flag waving, that's my point, moron. Also, most of what I post is a damn sight more considered, informed and evidenced than your daily hate inspired sh*t spewing rubbish.

[benjii]

If you read what I was saying AT ALL instead of sticking your nazi fingers in your ears, you thick f*ck, you'd understand by now that this is exactly NOT my point. There's no point in entering into a discussion or debate with you whatsoever because you're just retarded.

 

I have DECIDED that patriotism is in fact NOT about blindly following any flag waving, that's my point, moron. Also, most of what I post is a damn sight more considered, informed and evidenced than your daily hate inspired sh*t spewing rubbish.

 

I think what you've decided is that most common manifestations of patriotism are exactly that, but you have a different one which is "true" and better. Hmm.

 

There is a risk of a relativistic paradox whenever one has these sorts of discussions.

 

I've enjoyed the thread though - some good meaty posts all round.

[stthrobber]

I never queried the fact that it happens abroad. More the fact the Throbber said it was common practice here - in some way suggesting that Somalis are bringing their multitude of revolting practices here and inflicting them upon the rest of us. I've no doubt that there are cases of it happening over here but using terms such as 'common practice' is misguided at best and dangerous at worst.

 

Clearly it's not something we want going on here (or anywhere for that matter) but statements like that breed prejudice (unfortunately).

 

It is a common practice here. In my work I do get to hear about many such cases of incidents that we consider disgusting, but my point was not that these things take place, but in a multi cultural society, where do we draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not. Clearly this practice to us is disgusting, but if it is a Somali custom then who are we to label it disgusting because we aren't comfortable with it.

 

Statements like this are not misguided but made from personal cases and experiences that I've come across at work.

 

Nor was I in any way suggesting that I find Somalis bringing their revolting practices here. I was saying that it happens, as it happens, clandestinely as things stand. I do find it abhorrent and even cruel, but if it is a custom that is carried out in Africa then who are we to condemn?

[benjii]

It is a common practice here. In my work I do get to hear about many such cases of incidents that we consider disgusting, but my point was not that these things take place, but in a multi cultural society, where do we draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not. Clearly this practice to us is disgusting, but if it is a Somali custom then who are we to label it disgusting because we aren't comfortable with it.

 

Statements like this are not misguided but made from personal cases and experiences that I've come across at work.

 

Nor was I in any way suggesting that I find Somalis bringing their revolting practices here. I was saying that it happens, as it happens, clandestinely as things stand. I do find it abhorrent and even cruel, but if it is a custom that is carried out in Africa then who are we to condemn?

 

Therein lies the paradox though.

 

If you can't draw a line then you can't condemn anything. Nazis, terrrorists, rapists.

 

The only option is to have the courage to say "I disagree, and I want this stopped". There's no comfort blanket of metaphysical or moral justification - you just have to stand-up.

 

Very Sartrean I know, and most people don't like it... but there you go.

[stthrobber]

Therein lies the paradox though.

 

If you can't draw a line then you can't condemn anything. Nazis, terrrorists, rapists.

 

The only option is to have the courage to say "I disagree, and I want this stopped". There's no comfort blanket of metaphysical or moral justification - you just have to stand-up.

 

Very Sartrean I know, and most people don't like it... but there you go.

 

Which is why, in my opinion, a multi cultural society can't work. We have our laws and our customs and people who come to our country should adapt to us, as we have to adapt to their laws when we go to their countries.

[Kadeem Hardison]

One could argue that it celebrates a sense of shared beliefs that manifest themselves as a cultural identity and those shared beliefs bond people together.

 

Coming from one of the most divisive individuals I've ever come across, I'm assuming you aren't referring to you as the "one" that could argue this?

[Mole]

Which is why, in my opinion, a multi cultural society can't work. We have our laws and our customs and people who come to our country should adapt to us, as we have to adapt to their laws when we go to their countries.

 

I agree completely. Multiculturalism is a failed experiment. Enoch Powell was right.

[TopGun]

I agree completely. Multiculturalism is a failed experiment. Enoch Powell was right.

 

So where are the practical alternatives?

 

Personally as a guy who is a Celt I feel ****ed off that some MP in Wales is calling for the removal of the word "Britain". If he had any sense he would know that the Welsh are the Britons and until about 1100 the term Brythonic was widespread as a term for the Celts who had been shoved into Wales and Cornwall by the Saxons, who became the English.

Edited 15 November, 2008 by TopGun

[Mole]

So where are the practical alternatives?

 

Personally as a guy who is a Celt I feel ****ed off that some MP in Wales is calling for the removal of the word "Britain". If he had any sense he would know that the Welsh are the Britons and until about 1100 the term Brythonic was widespread as a term for the Celts who had been shoved into Wales and Cornwall by the Saxons, who became the English.

 

I can't reply as DSM has sent me a waring for my post.

 

Dear Stanley,

 

You have received a warning at Saints Web.

 

Reason:

-------

Pushing the boundaries

 

You really are pushing it today. Any more cr*p and I'll drop down on you like a ton of bricks, £5 or no £5.

-------

 

Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.

 

All the best,

Saints Web

[TopGun]

That doesn't surprise me in the least Stanley. Dicks are dicks.

[Guest Hacienda]

If you read what I was saying AT ALL instead of sticking your nazi fingers in your ears, you thick f*ck, you'd understand by now that this is exactly NOT my point. There's no point in entering into a discussion or debate with you whatsoever because you're just retarded.

 

I have DECIDED that patriotism is in fact NOT about blindly following any flag waving, that's my point, moron. Also, most of what I post is a damn sight more considered, informed and evidenced than your daily hate inspired sh*t spewing rubbish.

 

Tut tut hippy. Going off in a huff because your warped views are bested is a tad silly.

[Guest Hacienda]

I think what you've decided is that most common manifestations of patriotism are exactly that, but you have a different one which is "true" and better. Hmm.

 

He clearly believes that "his" sort of patriotism is the superior one and woebehold anyone who says differently as he'll get all ranty on your ass!

[Guest Hacienda]

Coming from one of the most divisive individuals I've ever come across

 

Thanks for the accolade. I'll cherish it.

[Guest Hacienda]

So where are the practical alternatives?

 

I worked in one of the most diverse areas of the UK and regularly attend events at the local Bengali, Yemeni and Indian centres and there seems to be a common agreement that the idea of every culture being separate led to a sort of impasse where the immigrant groups stayed isolated as everything would be supplied in their language etc and that in itself led many groups staying in poverty as they never gathered enough skills to function in wider society.

 

Now that it no longer happens, English is becoming more needed and that leads to better understanding etc.

 

Hopefully it's the first steps to having an inclusive multicultural society.

[Kadeem Hardison]

Thanks for the accolade. I'll cherish it.

 

It's up there with "bedroom general".

[TheCholulaKid]

Which is why, in my opinion, a multi cultural society can't work. We have our laws and our customs and people who come to our country should adapt to us, as we have to adapt to their laws when we go to their countries.

 

Didn't I read somewhere else that you're a copper? Kind of makes sense now.

[hypochondriac]

Didn't I read somewhere else that you're a copper? Kind of makes sense now.

Which part do you disagree with. Seems very sensible to me.

[Mole]

Didn't I read somewhere else that you're a copper? Kind of makes sense now.

 

No he's not. Stthrobber is sound as a pound.

[miserableoldgit]

Didn't I read somewhere else that you're a copper? Kind of makes sense now.

Yeah because all coppers are right wing Nazis aren`t they? We would be far better off without the Police wouldn`t we?

[stthrobber]

Didn't I read somewhere else that you're a copper? Kind of makes sense now.

 

No I don't think you've read that anywere. I am not a copper but I do work in a police station and I'm not going to rise to your bait.

 

I only wish you could work in the same environment that I do and see the things I see.

 

It seems you resent people having opinions which don't dovetail in with your own views. I've already said, I'm a normal bloke with normal views, and those are views widely echoed by many of my friends and colleagues, including those of muslim backgrounds.

 

Sorry you seem to find that so disagreeable.

[Robsk II]

Hacienda - I'm pretty certain you haven't 'bested' my views anywhere. I'm also fairly certain that you're unlikely to best most people in any intellectual regard. I say again, you have entirely failed, quite deliberately, perhaps, to take the meaning from my posts. Maybe you struggle to read, or with the language?

[Mole]

Maybe you struggle to read, or with the language?

 

In English please.

[Kadeem Hardison]

In English please.

 

Thicko.