Kristallnacht today- and lessons.

[Robsk II]

If you're not interested, don't read the following, and don't bother to comment.

 

As we remember those who have died in wars, don't forget the victims of genocides throughout history. Across the evening of the 9th November and into the 10th, 1938, Nazi's rampaged through the streets of Germany, burning, smashing, destroying all things Jewish, murdering 90, burning 200 Synagogues. Most normal Germans, most of whom were uncomfortable with events, including police and fire crews, looked on and did nothing, not wanting to get involved or risk the Nazi's ire.

 

"Indifference is the first step towards endangering essential values.... xenophobia, racism and anti-Semitism must never be given an opportunity in Europe again." - Angela Merkel.

 

Take note, racist idiots, xenophobes and those who think that those against the above are just "PC gone mad".

 

Some political correctness is over the top, and it's a stupid term anyway. The fact of the matter is that ignorance can escalate, so some try to draw a line to ensure it doesn't, even over what seems innocent enough.

 

Those who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. We've seen the Americans do it in Iraq, after Vietnam - and despite many thinking that Vietnam was the first time they f*cked up, you'd be wrong. Even as a fledgling nation, the US did something very similar in the Philippines. This led to many civilian deaths, had suspect motivations and means, and despite superior US military power, and sometimes brutal suppression of local people (including cases of shooting any male over ten in the vicinity), the conflict rumbled on via guerilla warfare for some time after the messy official end. Mark Twain said the following about the conflict

 

"I wanted the American eagle to go screaming into the Pacific ...Why not spread its wings over the Philippines, I asked myself? ... I said to myself, Here are a people who have suffered for three centuries. We can make them as free as ourselves, give them a government and country of their own, put a miniature of the American Constitution afloat in the Pacific, start a brand new republic to take its place among the free nations of the world. It seemed to me a great task to which we had addressed ourselves. But I have thought some more, since then, and I have read carefully the treaty of Paris [which ended the Spanish-American War], and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem. It should, it seems to me, be our pleasure and duty to make those people free, and let them deal with their own domestic questions in their own way. And so I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land."

 

If Mark Twain could see things like this 100 years ago, it is a shame that so many, even in this country, with all our education and freedoms and supposed enlightenment, cannot.

[Jillyanne]

Good post Rob.

[Guest Hacienda]

Nice anti-American rant there.

 

I can see how it fits it with your anti-racism/xenophobia message.

[miserableoldgit]

If you're not interested, don't read the following, and don't bother to comment.

 

As we remember those who have died in wars, don't forget the victims of genocides throughout history. Across the evening of the 9th November and into the 10th, 1938, Nazi's rampaged through the streets of Germany, burning, smashing, destroying all things Jewish, murdering 90, burning 200 Synagogues. Most normal Germans, most of whom were uncomfortable with events, including police and fire crews, looked on and did nothing, not wanting to get involved or risk the Nazi's ire.

 

"Indifference is the first step towards endangering essential values.... xenophobia, racism and anti-Semitism must never be given an opportunity in Europe again." - Angela Merkel.

 

Take note, racist idiots, xenophobes and those who think that those against the above are just "PC gone mad".

 

Some political correctness is over the top, and it's a stupid term anyway. The fact of the matter is that ignorance can escalate, so some try to draw a line to ensure it doesn't, even over what seems innocent enough.

 

Those who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. We've seen the Americans do it in Iraq, after Vietnam - and despite many thinking that Vietnam was the first time they f*cked up, you'd be wrong. Even as a fledgling nation, the US did something very similar in the Philippines. This led to many civilian deaths, had suspect motivations and means, and despite superior US military power, and sometimes brutal suppression of local people (including cases of shooting any male over ten in the vicinity), the conflict rumbled on via guerilla warfare for some time after the messy official end. Mark Twain said the following about the conflict

 

"I wanted the American eagle to go screaming into the Pacific ...Why not spread its wings over the Philippines, I asked myself? ... I said to myself, Here are a people who have suffered for three centuries. We can make them as free as ourselves, give them a government and country of their own, put a miniature of the American Constitution afloat in the Pacific, start a brand new republic to take its place among the free nations of the world. It seemed to me a great task to which we had addressed ourselves. But I have thought some more, since then, and I have read carefully the treaty of Paris [which ended the Spanish-American War], and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem. It should, it seems to me, be our pleasure and duty to make those people free, and let them deal with their own domestic questions in their own way. And so I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land."

 

If Mark Twain could see things like this 100 years ago, it is a shame that so many, even in this country, with all our education and freedoms and supposed enlightenment, cannot.

I am no lover of America, but where would we have been in 1918 or 1945 without them? Nothing is black or white. Where would we have been during the Cold War without the backing of the Americans? Would Russian influence have spread further into Europe? Unfortunately, America is a neccessary evil.

[Robsk II]

This isn't an anti-America rant. It's more about letting boundaries of prejudice etc slip, and lessons of history. I'm glad the US came into WW2, but that war was, in my view, about defending people, not subjugating them, at least from our point of view. Sure, there would have been hidden agendas, but I mention the Philippine thing in the same breath as Vietnam, not WW2. As much as anything else, my point was that, regardless of whether or not it was 'right' to go into Iraq, they've conducted it in a way that has led to it being another 'Nam. It seems clear to me, at least, that they could have taken what they learned in the 60's and 70's about local populations, guerilla opposition, insurgency and so on and implemented it in a better, more sensitive way. For example, that Abu Ghraib **** should never have happened. granted, it's the acts of individuals and not the whole - but the whole had to be more accountable.

[miserableoldgit]

This isn't an anti-America rant. It's more about letting boundaries of prejudice etc slip, and lessons of history. I'm glad the US came into WW2, but that war was, in my view, about defending people, not subjugating them, at least from our point of view. Sure, there would have been hidden agendas, but I mention the Philippine thing in the same breath as Vietnam, not WW2. As much as anything else, my point was that, regardless of whether or not it was 'right' to go into Iraq, they've conducted it in a way that has led to it being another 'Nam. It seems clear to me, at least, that they could have taken what they learned in the 60's and 70's about local populations, guerilla opposition, insurgency and so on and implemented it in a better, more sensitive way. For example, that Abu Ghraib **** should never have happened. granted, it's the acts of individuals and not the whole - but the whole had to be more accountable.

Sadly, the biggest problem with the Americans is that they don`t learn from history. Because they are the biggest, most powerful country on earth, this is their answer to everything. I just know, however, that if this country has to align itself to anyone, it has to be the U.S. I am not happy about it but what are the choices?

[Robsk II]

Again, that's not my point. In pragmatic terms, it makes much sense to consider them allies politically and economically. Also, to be fair, some of them do learn, but as a power, I guess you need to be slapped before you truly do. These decisions weren't easy, though, I'm well aware. It's more like.. WW1 generals, going by the proscribed doctrine rather than adapting to the self-evident new conditions of war. That was such a massive thing that thinking HAD to change. I hope the West doesn't need a slap of that magnitude.

 

My main point was to draw a parallel with the state of play at the moment, and the reminder about Kristallnacht, how racial hate starts, where it can lead etc. Just wanted to point out that rememberance day is not just about the soldiers, but about the innocent victims to - and it's a good time to reflect on history and remember.

 

Remembering is a pointless and does not respect to those who have laid down their lives if we don't seek to learn the lessons their blood was spilled for.

[benjii]

There seems to be a slight assumption that Iraq is unequivocally a failure.

 

Maybe those behind the whole expedition are quite happy with how it turned out?

[Robsk II]

Why does everyone seek to deviate!!? I'm not judging the Iraq thing in totality, but some of it has been a debacle. History won't recall it that favourably, I'm sure, though there have been small successes. If those behind it truly regard it as a success, in most senses of the word, it wouldn't surprise me, because they are exactly the kind of people who don't give a **** about loss of life - particularly loss of life of those from other countries, or, worse, those that don't directly impact on them.

[benjii]

Why does everyone seek to deviate!!? I'm not judging the Iraq thing in totality, but some of it has been a debacle. History won't recall it that favourably, I'm sure, though there have been small successes. If those behind it truly regard it as a success, in most senses of the word, it wouldn't surprise me, because they are exactly the kind of people who don't give a **** about loss of life - particularly loss of life of those from other countries, or, worse, those that don't directly impact on them.

 

Yes, I agree. That was largely my point.

[miserableoldgit]

Again, that's not my point. In pragmatic terms, it makes much sense to consider them allies politically and economically. Also, to be fair, some of them do learn, but as a power, I guess you need to be slapped before you truly do. These decisions weren't easy, though, I'm well aware. It's more like.. WW1 generals, going by the proscribed doctrine rather than adapting to the self-evident new conditions of war. That was such a massive thing that thinking HAD to change. I hope the West doesn't need a slap of that magnitude.

 

My main point was to draw a parallel with the state of play at the moment, and the reminder about Kristallnacht, how racial hate starts, where it can lead etc. Just wanted to point out that rememberance day is not just about the soldiers, but about the innocent victims to - and it's a good time to reflect on history and remember.

 

Remembering is a pointless and does not respect to those who have laid down their lives if we don't seek to learn the lessons their blood was spilled for.

 

Totally agree.

[Guest Hacienda]

Remembering is a pointless and does not respect to those who have laid down their lives if we don't seek to learn the lessons their blood was spilled for.

 

As there hasn't been a worldwide conflagration since 1945, nor have we had a fascist state in Europe I'd suggest that we'd learned the lessons perfectly well.

[Robsk II]

I'm pretty certain 1,000,000 Rwandans, and more, would disagree, as would those who died in Srebrenica, those under Pol Pot's reign, those in the Congo today, thousands in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Iraq... the list goes on. It doesn't need to be a conflict that encompasses the glove to show that the world has not learned. Many people on this board are up to levels as far as 3 on this: http://www.genocidewatch.org/8stages.htm

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

I'm pretty certain 1,000,000 Rwandans, and more, would disagree, as would those who died in Srebrenica, those under Pol Pot's reign, those in the Congo today, thousands in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Iraq... the list goes on. It doesn't need to be a conflict that encompasses the glove to show that the world has not learned. Many people on this board are up to levels as far as 3 on this: http://www.genocidewatch.org/8stages.htm

 

One of the most interesting things I have read in ages. I've only ever been involved in Human Rights in an individual capacity but it was thought provoking to see where some sections of our society would be on that list. At level three and thankfully no further as they are very unlikely to be elected to power.

[Guest Hacienda]

I'm pretty certain 1,000,000 Rwandans, and more, would disagree, as would those who died in Srebrenica, those under Pol Pot's reign, those in the Congo today, thousands in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Iraq... the list goes on. It doesn't need to be a conflict that encompasses the glove to show that the world has not learned. Many people on this board are up to levels as far as 3 on this: http://www.genocidewatch.org/8stages.htm

 

That does not mean that we haven't learnt the lessons of two World Wars.

 

The much maligned EU, UN and Nato are good examples of that.

 

You despair of human nature, not of unlearned lessons.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

Sadly, the biggest problem with the Americans is that they don`t learn from history. Because they are the biggest, most powerful country on earth, this is their answer to everything. I just know, however, that if this country has to align itself to anyone, it has to be the U.S. I am not happy about it but what are the choices?

 

Align to the EU. We can be so much more than we have chosen to be on the European stage.

[stthrobber]

You make some interesting points here, and we should never forget the millions of innocent people killed by despots filled by hatred and greed.

 

Anti semitism in Germany may be one example, but it was around before Hitler. It was certainly rife over here during Victorian times and I've just been reading about a Jewish soldier who could have stayed in South Africa for the duration of WW1 and lived a very comfortable life writing poetry, but he chose to join the British army and was badly treated by his colleagues despite his bravery.

 

Having said that, whilst we in this country try to embrace multi culturalism and politically correct doctrines, we are losing our own laws and customs that others should adapt to when they come here.

 

There was a couple imprisoned in Dubai for having sex on the beach recently. They didn't adhere to the laws of that country and paid the price. What they did was offensive to the muslims over there and showed complete disregard for their laws and customs.

 

Over here it seems we just change the law so that we try to be all things to all people, and in doing so, we are actually fuelling racial bigotry rather than combating it.

 

Apparently, the Royal Navy is to patrol the coast of Somalia in order to combat the threat of piracy there which is rife and costly, yet they will not be detaining any pirates for fear that they can claim asylum under current European Human Rights laws.

 

We see the phrase "Happy Holidays" etc instead of Happy Christmas for fear of offending minorities. It's things like this which continue to ensure that racial hatred will not be eradicated.

 

We should be able to welcome all peoples here, from inside and outside of the EU, but they should observe our laws and our customs and if they don't, then they have the option of going home again or mabye to another country sympathetic to their views etc.

 

Every Friday lunchtime, hundreds of muslims descend on the area where my police station is. They park where they like, often cause obstructions and they are given license to do this by the council and police. An elderly lady asked a warden recently if she could park in a residents bay whilst she went to Church and was advised sadly that she couldn't. When she asked the warden why muslims could get away with it, he was unable to give her a reply.

 

I don't consider myself a bigot, nor a racist, but if I can see that such policies as the above only cause more hatred, then imagine how much that hatred will be magnified in countries which we would consider less advanced and humane than ours.

[Thedelldays]

stthrobber..

 

I was out in the indian ocean with work around april this year...and what you said is true about detaining pirates...

 

i was involved in an op regarding ths issue and the carrier HMS Illustrious was in area and their helos were following a hijacked boat (it was a massive luxury liner and it was on the news) and the RN would not get more involved despite having an RN battle group of one carrier, two frigates, one destroyer, two mine sweepers and two RFAs with one hunter killer sub.....they (we) would not get involved because of the very reason you said and you can see the hatred by the command towards the stupid PC rules being enforced on the forces...

 

the Yanks dealt with the pirates and did what they did...

[miserableoldgit]

You make some interesting points here, and we should never forget the millions of innocent people killed by despots filled by hatred and greed.

 

Anti semitism in Germany may be one example, but it was around before Hitler. It was certainly rife over here during Victorian times and I've just been reading about a Jewish soldier who could have stayed in South Africa for the duration of WW1 and lived a very comfortable life writing poetry, but he chose to join the British army and was badly treated by his colleagues despite his bravery.

 

Having said that, whilst we in this country try to embrace multi culturalism and politically correct doctrines, we are losing our own laws and customs that others should adapt to when they come here.

 

 

There was a couple imprisoned in Dubai for having sex on the beach recently. They didn't adhere to the laws of that country and paid the price. What they did was offensive to the muslims over there and showed complete disregard for their laws and customs.

 

Over here it seems we just change the law so that we try to be all things to all people, and in doing so, we are actually fuelling racial bigotry rather than combating it.

 

Apparently, the Royal Navy is to patrol the coast of Somalia in order to combat the threat of piracy there which is rife and costly, yet they will not be detaining any pirates for fear that they can claim asylum under current European Human Rights laws.

 

We see the phrase "Happy Holidays" etc instead of Happy Christmas for fear of offending minorities. It's things like this which continue to ensure that racial hatred will not be eradicated.

 

We should be able to welcome all peoples here, from inside and outside of the EU, but they should observe our laws and our customs and if they don't, then they have the option of going home again or mabye to another country sympathetic to their views etc.

 

Every Friday lunchtime, hundreds of muslims descend on the area where my police station is. They park where they like, often cause obstructions and they are given license to do this by the council and police. An elderly lady asked a warden recently if she could park in a residents bay whilst she went to Church and was advised sadly that she couldn't. When she asked the warden why muslims could get away with it, he was unable to give her a reply.

 

I don't consider myself a bigot, nor a racist, but if I can see that such policies as the above only cause more hatred, then imagine how much that hatred will be magnified in countries which we would consider less advanced and humane than ours.

 

Good sensible post. Mind you, you do realise that you will now be branded "A Daily Mail Reader"!

[Robsk II]

Hacienda, perhaps you're right, but maybe I live in hope that human nature itself can move forwards.

 

MOG and StThrobber, I'm all for sensible debate based in reality and with people open to the facts. I am not 'loony left' just because I deplore hate crime etc. I always say I'm a pragmatist above all else, and I stand by this. As it happens, I've made points elsewhere about capitalism left to run wild, and other things, has led to an increased hegemony of cultures - it's quite true that nations are in danger of losing some of their cultural heritage. One question that is pertinent here is - and this is a tricky one - does is actually matter, and why? Is this not progress? What is the point of conservatism for its own sake?

 

Also - I am actually in total agreement that some of the stuff has gone [the oft-said] 'too far'. I've always said that if you make a choice to live in another country, you make a choice to abide by its laws and the social constructs that are key to the nation. Equally, you should be allowed to freely practice your own cultures, have your own values and beliefs etc, provided it doesn't impact negatively on that already in place. I have no idea about that Muslim story and the police station, but what I would say is this - why blame the muslims? It seems to me to be more a result of daft policy-making and so on. If there are idiots within their community who make a song and dance if they get rightly ticketed, then lambast them - not the whole group. That's where prejudice and lazy thinking come in (and I'm not saying you were doing this, by the way - just suggesting a course of action). The 'happy holidays' bull**** is not something I agree with. I am not a christian, yet I'm happy to say 'happy christmas', because for me, it's a social convention, not a religious one. Wishing someone a happy christmas shouldn't offend - there is a duty on the receiver to also be sensitive - and actually, in this country, whether we or anyone else like it or not, we ARE approaching the christmas period. Also, sure - some of the EU laws are rubbish. Yet I would suggest a note of caution in being too critical - for all the problems inherent with them and human rights laws, they have done more good than harm to the majority of people.

 

You're quite right about anti-semitism being around before Hitler. There's a great tradition of it, in fact! We can see such negative stereotypes in older things, like Shakespeare's "Merhcant of Venice", and before. The Jews had genuinely been subject to a whole lot of persecution for hundreds and hundreds of years, historically. Bringing up Kristallnacht etc was purely because of the anniversary, and now is as good a time to remember that these ethnic hatreds etc are baseless and boil up into something very quickly given the right environment of ignorance, hatred, scapegoating etc.

 

Before we get on at the lawmakers and so on - I would urge you to consider the motivations, the original intents, behind them. No-one wants false asylum seekers or terrorists here. No-one sensible wants preferential treatment given to a certain demographic. Also, these things are far from resulting soley from the EU or labour governments. In my view, it's all interlinked with capitalism and globalisation, and the irony is that these things have brought about great positives in some place - yet these themselves have enabled these later issues. For example - we'd not be jetting around the world and so on if it weren't for free trade, we'd not have information sharing and so on as advanced as we do if not for it, we'd not have the internet and everything else. Yet these great advancements have led to things like mass movement of peoples, gross disparities in economical climates, indiscriminate sale of advanced weapon technologies etc. It's all a bit complex, in short, and there's never an easy answer to any of it. nice one.

[miserableoldgit]

Hacienda, perhaps you're right, but maybe I live in hope that human nature itself can move forwards.

 

MOG and StThrobber, I'm all for sensible debate based in reality and with people open to the facts. I am not 'loony left' just because I deplore hate crime etc. I always say I'm a pragmatist above all else, and I stand by this. As it happens, I've made points elsewhere about capitalism left to run wild, and other things, has led to an increased hegemony of cultures - it's quite true that nations are in danger of losing some of their cultural heritage. One question that is pertinent here is - and this is a tricky one - does is actually matter, and why? Is this not progress? What is the point of conservatism for its own sake?

 

Also - I am actually in total agreement that some of the stuff has gone [the oft-said] 'too far'. I've always said that if you make a choice to live in another country, you make a choice to abide by its laws and the social constructs that are key to the nation. Equally, you should be allowed to freely practice your own cultures, have your own values and beliefs etc, provided it doesn't impact negatively on that already in place. I have no idea about that Muslim story and the police station, but what I would say is this - why blame the muslims? It seems to me to be more a result of daft policy-making and so on. If there are idiots within their community who make a song and dance if they get rightly ticketed, then lambast them - not the whole group. That's where prejudice and lazy thinking come in (and I'm not saying you were doing this, by the way - just suggesting a course of action). The 'happy holidays' bull**** is not something I agree with. I am not a christian, yet I'm happy to say 'happy christmas', because for me, it's a social convention, not a religious one. Wishing someone a happy christmas shouldn't offend - there is a duty on the receiver to also be sensitive - and actually, in this country, whether we or anyone else like it or not, we ARE approaching the christmas period. Also, sure - some of the EU laws are rubbish. Yet I would suggest a note of caution in being too critical - for all the problems inherent with them and human rights laws, they have done more good than harm to the majority of people.

 

You're quite right about anti-semitism being around before Hitler. There's a great tradition of it, in fact! We can see such negative stereotypes in older things, like Shakespeare's "Merhcant of Venice", and before. The Jews had genuinely been subject to a whole lot of persecution for hundreds and hundreds of years, historically. Bringing up Kristallnacht etc was purely because of the anniversary, and now is as good a time to remember that these ethnic hatreds etc are baseless and boil up into something very quickly given the right environment of ignorance, hatred, scapegoating etc.

 

Before we get on at the lawmakers and so on - I would urge you to consider the motivations, the original intents, behind them. No-one wants false asylum seekers or terrorists here. No-one sensible wants preferential treatment given to a certain demographic. Also, these things are far from resulting soley from the EU or labour governments. In my view, it's all interlinked with capitalism and globalisation, and the irony is that these things have brought about great positives in some place - yet these themselves have enabled these later issues. For example - we'd not be jetting around the world and so on if it weren't for free trade, we'd not have information sharing and so on as advanced as we do if not for it, we'd not have the internet and everything else. Yet these great advancements have led to things like mass movement of peoples, gross disparities in economical climates, indiscriminate sale of advanced weapon technologies etc. It's all a bit complex, in short, and there's never an easy answer to any of it. nice one.

I think that it is very important that people are able to hold on to their cultural heritage. It is the very diversity of cultures that make this world interesting. I realise that this can also be a negative (tribalism, religious/racial intolerence etc) but don`t think that having a "Lowest Common Denominator" world cultural heritage would make for a better world. Celebrate what makes/made you what you are and respect what makes everyone else what they are.

[Guest Hacienda]

Hacienda, perhaps you're right, but maybe I live in hope that human nature itself can move forwards.

 

I believe that we all hope for that.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

You make some interesting points here, and we should never forget the millions of innocent people killed by despots filled by hatred and greed.

 

Anti semitism in Germany may be one example, but it was around before Hitler. It was certainly rife over here during Victorian times and I've just been reading about a Jewish soldier who could have stayed in South Africa for the duration of WW1 and lived a very comfortable life writing poetry, but he chose to join the British army and was badly treated by his colleagues despite his bravery.

 

Having said that, whilst we in this country try to embrace multi culturalism and politically correct doctrines, we are losing our own laws and customs that others should adapt to when they come here.

 

There was a couple imprisoned in Dubai for having sex on the beach recently. They didn't adhere to the laws of that country and paid the price. What they did was offensive to the muslims over there and showed complete disregard for their laws and customs.

 

Over here it seems we just change the law so that we try to be all things to all people, and in doing so, we are actually fuelling racial bigotry rather than combating it.

 

Apparently, the Royal Navy is to patrol the coast of Somalia in order to combat the threat of piracy there which is rife and costly, yet they will not be detaining any pirates for fear that they can claim asylum under current European Human Rights laws.

 

We see the phrase "Happy Holidays" etc instead of Happy Christmas for fear of offending minorities. It's things like this which continue to ensure that racial hatred will not be eradicated.

 

We should be able to welcome all peoples here, from inside and outside of the EU, but they should observe our laws and our customs and if they don't, then they have the option of going home again or mabye to another country sympathetic to their views etc.

 

Every Friday lunchtime, hundreds of muslims descend on the area where my police station is. They park where they like, often cause obstructions and they are given license to do this by the council and police. An elderly lady asked a warden recently if she could park in a residents bay whilst she went to Church and was advised sadly that she couldn't. When she asked the warden why muslims could get away with it, he was unable to give her a reply.

 

I don't consider myself a bigot, nor a racist, but if I can see that such policies as the above only cause more hatred, then imagine how much that hatred will be magnified in countries which we would consider less advanced and humane than ours.

 

Good sensible post. Mind you, you do realise that you will now be branded "A Daily Mail Reader"!

 

I'm a 'loony, tree hugging leftie' but I agree with St Throbber, and I'm not a reader of the Daily Hate!

 

We are too often held back for fear of being criticised for lack of PC.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

Can anyone sum that up for me in 1 or 2 bullet points?

 

It's not very likely. 20 or 30 maybe.

[Guest Hacienda]

Can anyone sum that up for me in 1 or 2 bullet points?

 

Luv everybody = good.

 

Being nasty = bad.

[Robsk II]

Again, Shane - if anything longer than a few words is too much for you, or you have no interest in anything other than how best to be an idiot, don't bother to read the thread.

 

Miserableoldgit, I actually agree that cultural heritage is important - I was raising it as a concept, because most people don't even think about that. yet most of our cultures are melting pots anyway. I guess that we would retain some local heritage regardless of how far down the hegemonic trail we go, but the 'smaller' the world becomes, the less diversity there would be - at least in the traditional sense. maybe different forms of cultural artefact would manifest themselves, I suppose it all depends on what happened. It's an interesting question - why do we think of it as important? Is it due to primal feelings of belonging, tribalism etc? In real terms - cold, technical ones - it might not be that important. The thing is, we feel that it is, and within that, it must be. I'm actually not that fussed about nationalism. I am proud to be English in my own way, love the country in my own way, but I'm not so stupid to think I wouldn't feel the same if I'd been born anywhere else, pretty much. I genuinely think of myself as a citizen of the world first, england second. That's not as loony as it might sound! But it means I try to be objective about my nationality, and as such, I do recognise that in the grand scheme of things - on a pure efficiency level - culture is both not that relevent and due to shift and change hugely over long terms anyway. Again, this isn't about my views - that's with my head rather than my heart! And I reiterate that I believe there will always be diversity - I would argue that geographic, economic, social conditions dictate that, not to mention human nature. We will always resist hegemony in some way. I'm never quite sure how aggressively we should safeguard our own now in the light of that fact. What parts should we hold on to, what should we allow to evolve and shift? A lot of people would hold onto parts that others would perceive as negative.

[miserableoldgit]

Again, Shane - if anything longer than a few words is too much for you, or you have no interest in anything other than how best to be an idiot, don't bother to read the thread.

 

Miserableoldgit, I actually agree that cultural heritage is important - I was raising it as a concept, because most people don't even think about that. yet most of our cultures are melting pots anyway. I guess that we would retain some local heritage regardless of how far down the hegemonic trail we go, but the 'smaller' the world becomes, the less diversity there would be - at least in the traditional sense. maybe different forms of cultural artefact would manifest themselves, I suppose it all depends on what happened. It's an interesting question - why do we think of it as important? Is it due to primal feelings of belonging, tribalism etc? In real terms - cold, technical ones - it might not be that important. The thing is, we feel that it is, and within that, it must be. I'm actually not that fussed about nationalism. I am proud to be English in my own way, love the country in my own way, but I'm not so stupid to think I wouldn't feel the same if I'd been born anywhere else, pretty much. I genuinely think of myself as a citizen of the world first, england second. That's not as loony as it might sound! But it means I try to be objective about my nationality, and as such, I do recognise that in the grand scheme of things - on a pure efficiency level - culture is both not that relevent and due to shift and change hugely over long terms anyway. Again, this isn't about my views - that's with my head rather than my heart! And I reiterate that I believe there will always be diversity - I would argue that geographic, economic, social conditions dictate that, not to mention human nature. We will always resist hegemony in some way. I'm never quite sure how aggressively we should safeguard our own now in the light of that fact. What parts should we hold on to, what should we allow to evolve and shift? A lot of people would hold onto parts that others would perceive as negative.

I think probably because it is something that is yours. Something that is part of your identity. A lot of people do not care about ther own cultural heritage but to a lot of others (including me) it is a part of what makes me who I am so I am going to guard it. It saddens me that culturally, the English have lost sight of English culture and traditions when the Irish, Scots and Welsh for example celebrate their own. Sadly too many American influences are prevelant in England and it is not just part of the natural melting pot process. It down to aggresive marketing.

[Robsk II]

Agreed. It's exactly what I'm talking about, the aggressive, unrestricted nature of capitalism, the globalisation that follows, and the more immoral side of it. It needs to be regulated in some way, IMO, or this will continue to be the case. We won't, and shouldn't, stop media artefacts and so on - but we should be seeking to ensure that our own cultural devices are as influential as those from elsewhere. We have litigation culture here now as well, another example of stupid informational flow from the US. I would say, though, that it's hard for us to say what does and does not constitute the 'natural melting pot' these days, seeing as the world we live in facilitates such rapid transit of such vast quantities of information that there's nothing to compare it to historically. In some ways, if it happens at all, it absolutely is 'natural' in this regard. It's just very destabilising and hugely impacting, but it is just how the world is now, for better or worse.

 

Also - I personally would worry that any attempts to celebrate being English would inherently condemn other cultures. That's always the problem with nationalism of any form. Too many people don't actually get it.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

 

Also - I personally would worry that any attempts to celebrate being English would inherently condemn other cultures. That's always the problem with nationalism of any form. Too many people don't actually get it.

 

I don't think that celebrating Englishness naturally condemns other cultures. It is however, often perceived to be so by people wanting to believe that there is an inherent persecution in such a celebration. All too often these people are English themselves, for example councils refusing to fly the Cross of St George in case it 'offends' Muslims, yet being happy to celebrate Diwali with a council-organised festival. Both of these celebrations should be allowable as far as I see it. In nearly all cases the supposedly offended group has no problem with what is happening at all.

 

In response to Stthrobber, what the council is doing regarding parking on Fidays outside Mosques and disallowing a woman to park outside a church is nothing more or less that racial discrimination (although they would call it positive discrimination or some such spin). This is ILLEGAL and the lady concerned could justifiably report it to the Equality and Human Rights Commission for action.

[Robsk II]

I don't think it always does, DSM - I just think that many people who do celebrate English culture and tradition miss the point a bit and end up being negative towards others. It certainly shouldn't have to condemn others, I totally agree. I also agree that many councils get the balance totally wrong.

[miserableoldgit]

I think that the point that most people forget is that Britain is probably the most tolerant country in the world. What other country allows people of any creed, colour or religion in, allowing and supporting them to set up their own places of worship and accepting them into our society completely. Of course there is some racism here, but not as much as some people would have us believe, and not as much as in many other countries. I have no problem with this at all - in fact I am quite pround of this. However, I do feel that what we are fostering here is a form of inverted racism where it is perceived that "native" Britons are becoming an "ethnic minority" - that they cannot do what they have always done (flying the flag of St George on April 23rd for example) for fear of offending the people that we are welcoming into "our home". It is easy to dismiss this as these people being "Dail Mail Reading Little Englanders" but the problem is there. In such circumstances are Nazi Parties spawned.

[Robsk II]

Hmm, I'm not sure I see the last part as being true, ie, the environment in which the NSDAP was formed - surely that had a whole lot more to do with weak politics elsewhere, the massive financial crash at the end of Weimar, and, of course, resentment after Versailles etc?

 

But I agree in the most part. Despite the more genuine 'daily mail readers' ( ) here trying to label anyone with any balance as a loony leftie, I totally agree that people should be able to fly the St George, etc. Equally, those that do it in a way to deliberately intimidate ethnic minorities etc (which does happen in isolated cases) should also be dealt with - but because of the intent, not the tradition itself. We are a very tolerant country for the most part, and that's one thing that makes me proud of the UK too - but - and this was the point of the post in some ways - amidst an increase in immigrant population as a perceived 'problem', we should be even more mindful than usual of prejudice, hate crime, lazy "us and them" thinking, mindless jingoism etc, than usual.

[thesaint sfc]

You make some interesting points here, and we should never forget the millions of innocent people killed by despots filled by hatred and greed.

 

Anti semitism in Germany may be one example, but it was around before Hitler. It was certainly rife over here during Victorian times and I've just been reading about a Jewish soldier who could have stayed in South Africa for the duration of WW1 and lived a very comfortable life writing poetry, but he chose to join the British army and was badly treated by his colleagues despite his bravery.

 

Having said that, whilst we in this country try to embrace multi culturalism and politically correct doctrines, we are losing our own laws and customs that others should adapt to when they come here.

 

There was a couple imprisoned in Dubai for having sex on the beach recently. They didn't adhere to the laws of that country and paid the price. What they did was offensive to the muslims over there and showed complete disregard for their laws and customs.

 

Over here it seems we just change the law so that we try to be all things to all people, and in doing so, we are actually fuelling racial bigotry rather than combating it.

 

Apparently, the Royal Navy is to patrol the coast of Somalia in order to combat the threat of piracy there which is rife and costly, yet they will not be detaining any pirates for fear that they can claim asylum under current European Human Rights laws.

 

We see the phrase "Happy Holidays" etc instead of Happy Christmas for fear of offending minorities. It's things like this which continue to ensure that racial hatred will not be eradicated.

 

We should be able to welcome all peoples here, from inside and outside of the EU, but they should observe our laws and our customs and if they don't, then they have the option of going home again or mabye to another country sympathetic to their views etc.

 

Every Friday lunchtime, hundreds of muslims descend on the area where my police station is. They park where they like, often cause obstructions and they are given license to do this by the council and police. An elderly lady asked a warden recently if she could park in a residents bay whilst she went to Church and was advised sadly that she couldn't. When she asked the warden why muslims could get away with it, he was unable to give her a reply.

 

I don't consider myself a bigot, nor a racist, but if I can see that such policies as the above only cause more hatred, then imagine how much that hatred will be magnified in countries which we would consider less advanced and humane than ours.

 

Totally agree with this post. Particularly this bit. Moving away from the first point some what, but that IMO is the problem with the way this country is going. Our laws are no longer respected and change as often as the media and multi cultural diversity pushes it. I don't like the way Americans deal with things - however they are a much stronger nation than us and I think the reason behind that is that they don't change like we do to adapt to new culture. America is always described as an arrogant country - I think we could do with a bit more arrogance about ourselves.

Edited 10 November, 2008 by thesaint sfc

[Robsk II]

Like what, exactly? The US has generally been called arrogant because they don't seem to give a **** about other people or certain groups in their foreign and domestic policy. That's hardly ideal imo.

[thesaint sfc]

Also out of interest, how would we celebrate being English? What would we do? I like my history but I honestly couldn't come up with many English traditions that we could celebrate as our own individually.

[thesaint sfc]

Like what, exactly? The US has generally been called arrogant because they don't seem to give a **** about other people or certain groups in their foreign and domestic policy. That's hardly ideal imo.

 

Hardly ideal depending on which way you look at it. I disagree with countries who only care about themselves politically like China who treat their people terribly. However you look at America and they have a strong healthy civilization who are supported and cared for by their country. The way this country changes rules and laws to support other cultures shows total lack of respect for the English citizens. I am in total support of cultural acceptance, but as pointed out many times above, the way we allow some religions to be celebrated and other traditional celebrations to be ignored is a damn disgrace IMO. I'm all for diversity but the way this country is going about it is wrong. I'm not saying we need to go American but we do need to keep a certain amount of arrogance to show more respect to the English people IMO.

[Robsk II]

it's an interesting point; one we and the media have discussed before. The interesting thing is that many of the greatest things about our nation in recent history have been things that have been about attitudes, not specific things. I feel proud of our variety of cultures, I feel proud of our role in WW2, defying dictatorship etc, I feel proud of our history in terms of being an early democracy and so on, I feel proud that we had equal rights in many things earlier than quite a lot of other countries. I even feel proud of some of more outdated things, like Waterloo, Trafalgar and so on - but not because it was against the Frenchies, you know? The problem, as I said, is that too many people interpret that kind of thing as a license to continue to be hostile towards the old enemy rather than celebrate the positives from our side. It's the same with the world wars. The same old antipathy towards the Germans remains with many people, and it's insane, particularly for younger generations. The Euro 96 coverage of our game with them, with Psycho on the back and all the war imagery - the cheap digs and nazi references - it was sickening in my opinion, and thankfully there was some backlash at the time.

[Robsk II]

An awful lot of citizens in the US feel very disenfranchised SFC. They don't have a national health service as we do. There are areas of real economic problems. Unemployment. I honestly don't see why you hold them up as a shining beacon, because they are far from it, surely? There are good things about them, but so are there about us, and the Germans, and the French, and the Chinese. A bit of balance is always nice. And while the 'marginalising of the hegemony' is occasionally an issue, I think it's pretty myopic to suggest that, in the bigger picture, English citizens are really done that harsh a deal. The facts show that we are still the most well off, the demographic with, as a whle, the better opportunities in education and employment and so on. yes, you can point to some examples where there are exceptions, but overall, it doesn't hold water. There are issues that need resolving, but saying that we change all our laws to support other cultures is sort of an empty statement. I think the vast majority of our laws our very much English in nature... Again, there are exceptions, but not that many. It is simply false to say any Government has shown a 'total lack of Respect for the English citizens', to be honest. Also - most ethnic minorities are English citizens, and most English citizens who are white were still the result of mass immigrations hundreds of years ago. We ARE a melting pot, and in many ways it has been what made us strong. The ability to merge other cultures into our own has, in a lot of ways, been the hallmark of our history itself.

[Guest Hacienda]

I don't think it always does, DSM - I just think that many people who do celebrate English culture and tradition miss the point a bit and end up being negative towards others.

 

You would care to supply evidence to support your hypothesis?

[miserableoldgit]

Also out of interest, how would we celebrate being English? What would we do? I like my history but I honestly couldn't come up with many English traditions that we could celebrate as our own individually.

If anyone wants to actually look for it, there is an incredible amount of music, song, dance and tradition that is English (not British), Sunday Roasts, pints of real ale, walking in some of the most beautiful countryside in the world, Christmas (not Winterval), Guy Fawkes Night, there are so many things that are particularly and peculiarly English. Why do so many English people celebrate St Patricks Day and not St Georges Day. St Georges Day IS NOT a Fascist celebration!

[Guest Hacienda]

Why do so many English people celebrate St Patricks Day and not St Georges Day. St Georges Day IS NOT a Fascist celebration!

 

Because the PC brigade bought into multiculturalism in such a way it excluded celebrations of the indigenous Anglo-Saxons as they were deemed oppressive.

 

Thankfully, now the credo of multiculturalism has been unmasked as the charlatan that it always was, a happy medium is being struck where we are all free to celebrate the things that we, as individuals hold dear.

 

Birmingham, for example, holds celebrations for Eid, Diwali, St Patrick's and St Georges.

 

A few years ago the idea that B'ham Council would support St Georges day would be laughable.

 

Sandwell, as multi ethnic as it comes and used to be the very idea of PC gone mad, also has St Georges celebrations.

[stthrobber]

Hacienda, perhaps you're right, but maybe I live in hope that human nature itself can move forwards.

 

MOG and StThrobber, I'm all for sensible debate based in reality and with people open to the facts. I am not 'loony left' just because I deplore hate crime etc. I always say I'm a pragmatist above all else, and I stand by this. As it happens, I've made points elsewhere about capitalism left to run wild, and other things, has led to an increased hegemony of cultures - it's quite true that nations are in danger of losing some of their cultural heritage. One question that is pertinent here is - and this is a tricky one - does is actually matter, and why? Is this not progress? What is the point of conservatism for its own sake?

 

Also - I am actually in total agreement that some of the stuff has gone [the oft-said] 'too far'. I've always said that if you make a choice to live in another country, you make a choice to abide by its laws and the social constructs that are key to the nation. Equally, you should be allowed to freely practice your own cultures, have your own values and beliefs etc, provided it doesn't impact negatively on that already in place. I have no idea about that Muslim story and the police station, but what I would say is this - why blame the muslims? It seems to me to be more a result of daft policy-making and so on. If there are idiots within their community who make a song and dance if they get rightly ticketed, then lambast them - not the whole group. That's where prejudice and lazy thinking come in (and I'm not saying you were doing this, by the way - just suggesting a course of action). The 'happy holidays' bull**** is not something I agree with. I am not a christian, yet I'm happy to say 'happy christmas', because for me, it's a social convention, not a religious one. Wishing someone a happy christmas shouldn't offend - there is a duty on the receiver to also be sensitive - and actually, in this country, whether we or anyone else like it or not, we ARE approaching the christmas period. Also, sure - some of the EU laws are rubbish. Yet I would suggest a note of caution in being too critical - for all the problems inherent with them and human rights laws, they have done more good than harm to the majority of people.

 

You're quite right about anti-semitism being around before Hitler. There's a great tradition of it, in fact! We can see such negative stereotypes in older things, like Shakespeare's "Merhcant of Venice", and before. The Jews had genuinely been subject to a whole lot of persecution for hundreds and hundreds of years, historically. Bringing up Kristallnacht etc was purely because of the anniversary, and now is as good a time to remember that these ethnic hatreds etc are baseless and boil up into something very quickly given the right environment of ignorance, hatred, scapegoating etc.

 

Before we get on at the lawmakers and so on - I would urge you to consider the motivations, the original intents, behind them. No-one wants false asylum seekers or terrorists here. No-one sensible wants preferential treatment given to a certain demographic. Also, these things are far from resulting soley from the EU or labour governments. In my view, it's all interlinked with capitalism and globalisation, and the irony is that these things have brought about great positives in some place - yet these themselves have enabled these later issues. For example - we'd not be jetting around the world and so on if it weren't for free trade, we'd not have information sharing and so on as advanced as we do if not for it, we'd not have the internet and everything else. Yet these great advancements have led to things like mass movement of peoples, gross disparities in economical climates, indiscriminate sale of advanced weapon technologies etc. It's all a bit complex, in short, and there's never an easy answer to any of it. nice one.

 

In my opinion it is vital for us to retain our Britishness, our heritage, our laws and customs etc and whilst people coming into our country should be welcomed, they should adapt to us and not the other way around.

 

Do people here realise that it is a custom for Somalis to cut off the ****oris of their daughters, and this is a common practice over here that is carried out in crude conditions, but it's their custom, so where do we draw the line? In some countries it is acceptable and common practice for children to get married and have children when they reach puberty, yet we find it distasteful and horrific.

 

Let's not forget that racism is not solely a British thing. The Japanese and Chinese are far worse than us, they regard us as barbarians. In fact, I reckon that there is a bit of racism in every nation, but it seems that only over here is it an issue. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that's the feeling I get.

 

As for the parking issue, it is blatantly wrong for one group to be given preferential treatment over another. The muslims attending Friday prayers have complained every time the police have issued fixed penalties and it seems that rather than face a muslim outcry, certain Inspectors have told their officers to turn a blind eye. In fact, only last Friday, our officers had a blitz on parking during Friday prayers and issues loads of tickets. A fax arrived from a local councillor today asking for the "blind eye" policy to be reinstated. I hope to god our leaders tell him where to go, it must be either all park there, or nobody does. After all, it is a restricted area with single and double yellow lines, put there to keep traffic moving and Friday lunchtimes are chaos.

 

If people want to eradicate racism, then everyone must have equal treatment and our services should not try to be all things to all people.

 

Who would like to travel to Saudi and walk down the street drinking beer? It's not allowed there and if we told them they should be a multi cultural society, they would quite rightly tell us to sod off and if we raised the spectre of "human rights" they would laugh in our faces, yet over here we allow ourselves to be walked all over by immigrants, many of whom accept our hospitality and spit it out in our faces. I see myself as a reasonable bloke, extremely tolerant, but this kind of thing drives me crazy

[stthrobber]

In my opinion it is vital for us to retain our Britishness, our heritage, our laws and customs etc and whilst people coming into our country should be welcomed, they should adapt to us and not the other way around.

 

Do people here realise that it is a custom for Somalis to cut off the ****oris of their daughters, and this is a common practice over here that is carried out in crude conditions, but it's their custom, so where do we draw the line? In some countries it is acceptable and common practice for children to get married and have children when they reach puberty, yet we find it distasteful and horrific.

 

Let's not forget that racism is not solely a British thing. The Japanese and Chinese are far worse than us, they regard us as barbarians. In fact, I reckon that there is a bit of racism in every nation, but it seems that only over here is it an issue. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that's the feeling I get.

 

As for the parking issue, it is blatantly wrong for one group to be given preferential treatment over another. The muslims attending Friday prayers have complained every time the police have issued fixed penalties and it seems that rather than face a muslim outcry, certain Inspectors have told their officers to turn a blind eye. In fact, only last Friday, our officers had a blitz on parking during Friday prayers and issues loads of tickets. A fax arrived from a local councillor today asking for the "blind eye" policy to be reinstated. I hope to god our leaders tell him where to go, it must be either all park there, or nobody does. After all, it is a restricted area with single and double yellow lines, put there to keep traffic moving and Friday lunchtimes are chaos.

 

If people want to eradicate racism, then everyone must have equal treatment and our services should not try to be all things to all people.

 

Who would like to travel to Saudi and walk down the street drinking beer? It's not allowed there and if we told them they should be a multi cultural society, they would quite rightly tell us to sod off and if we raised the spectre of "human rights" they would laugh in our faces, yet over here we allow ourselves to be walked all over by immigrants, many of whom accept our hospitality and spit it out in our faces. I see myself as a reasonable bloke, extremely tolerant, but this kind of thing drives me crazy

 

By way of an update over the Friday parking issue that I referred to, whilst I was away on hols last week, the wardens had a blitz on these cars and booked the lot of them.

 

We had the leader of Cardiff Council and a muslim leader at the station yesterday urging that police allow them to park in restricted areas again because it has been a custom for many years, but our boss has quite clearly (at last) stood up to them and said no. Permission should never have been given in the first place and in future, any vehicles parked in a restricted area over the Friday prayers will be issued with a fixed penalty as the police can no longer justify giving preferential treatment to minorities at the expense of local residents.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

By way of an update over the Friday parking issue that I referred to, whilst I was away on hols last week, the wardens had a blitz on these cars and booked the lot of them.

 

We had the leader of Cardiff Council and a muslim leader at the station yesterday urging that police allow them to park in restricted areas again because it has been a custom for many years, but our boss has quite clearly (at last) stood up to them and said no. Permission should never have been given in the first place and in future, any vehicles parked in a restricted area over the Friday prayers will be issued with a fixed penalty as the police can no longer justify giving preferential treatment to minorities at the expense of local residents.

 

Well! That does seem a more sensible attitude.

[Toomer]

I had a problem with parking during the summer, we have a church 200 yards up the road from us. One Sunday morning we had one of the church goers park in front of our drive, my first thought was to march into the church and shout out, will the cvnt that owns the blue Astra reg ******* feckin well move it.

 

But as my wife and daughter both work for SCC we had a direct number to get it towed away, the OB turned up and said lift it. I was told that what I did was not very christian by the owner, my reply was and the £150.00 you will have to cough up to get your back won't be christian either.

[Thedelldays]

yet over here we allow ourselves to be walked all over by immigrants, many of whom accept our hospitality and spit it out in our faces. I see myself as a reasonable bloke, extremely tolerant, but this kind of thing drives me crazy

that sums it up for me

[stthrobber]

But as my wife and daughter both work for SCC we had a direct number to get it towed away, the OB turned up and said lift it. I was told that what I did was not very christian by the owner, my reply was and the £150.00 you will have to cough up to get your back won't be christian either.

 

That's a bit rich isn't it? Having the car towed away was not very Christian, but then, parking and obstructing someone's drive for an hour or so is also not very Christian. It's also extremely inconsiderate and selfish.

 

'Kin hard luck I say

[TheCholulaKid]

In my opinion it is vital for us to retain our Britishness, our heritage, our laws and customs etc and whilst people coming into our country should be welcomed, they should adapt to us and not the other way around.

 

Do people here realise that it is a custom for Somalis to cut off the ****oris of their daughters, and this is a common practice over here that is carried out in crude conditions, but it's their custom, so where do we draw the line? In some countries it is acceptable and common practice for children to get married and have children when they reach puberty, yet we find it distasteful and horrific.

 

Let's not forget that racism is not solely a British thing. The Japanese and Chinese are far worse than us, they regard us as barbarians. In fact, I reckon that there is a bit of racism in every nation, but it seems that only over here is it an issue. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that's the feeling I get.

 

I agree with the first bit but the rest is just ******** (as is most of the ****e written in this thread). Where are your figures to show that female circumcision is 'common practice'? Sensationalist nonsense.

 

You're right there are racists in every country - and probably more so in Japan and China than many others but this might have something to do with the fact that they were culturally isolated from the rest of the world until the early 20th century - their choice but nevertheless they're playing catch up in the tolerance stakes. Anyway, your point is what? That they're really racist so it's OK if we're a bit racist?

 

The reason most people don't celebrate St George's Day is because we don't need to. We haven't been colonised or conquered (not for nearly a 1000 years anyway) and we haven't been oppressed as a people. St Patrick's Day is widely celebrated precisely because the Irish have been colonised and oppressed - they have a need to express their identity. FWIW I have a lot of Irish blood in my family but I couldn't give a **** about St Patrick's Day - I was born in England and am English and find it a bit cringeworthy when people suddenly proclaim themselves Irish.

 

Likewise with the US - very patriotic, mainly because they are a young nation and unsure of their place in the world - give them a few hundred years (or 4 years of Obama) and that might be more bearable and a bit less insecure.

 

I love living in England - warm beer, milk maids, cricket greens and all that and I would shed every last drop of blood for my country if it was invaded but I don't need to shout it from the rooftops. It's embarrassing and very un-English.

[miserableoldgit]

I agree with the first bit but the rest is just ******** (as is most of the ****e written in this thread). Where are your figures to show that female circumcision is 'common practice'? Sensationalist nonsense.

 

You're right there are racists in every country - and probably more so in Japan and China than many others but this might have something to do with the fact that they were culturally isolated from the rest of the world until the early 20th century - their choice but nevertheless they're playing catch up in the tolerance stakes. Anyway, your point is what? That they're really racist so it's OK if we're a bit racist?

 

The reason most people don't celebrate St George's Day is because we don't need to. We haven't been colonised or conquered (not for nearly a 1000 years anyway) and we haven't been oppressed as a people. St Patrick's Day is widely celebrated precisely because the Irish have been colonised and oppressed - they have a need to express their identity. FWIW I have a lot of Irish blood in my family but I couldn't give a **** about St Patrick's Day - I was born in England and am English and find it a bit cringeworthy when people suddenly proclaim themselves Irish.

 

Likewise with the US - very patriotic, mainly because they are a young nation and unsure of their place in the world - give them a few hundred years (or 4 years of Obama) and that might be more bearable and a bit less insecure.

 

I love living in England - warm beer, milk maids, cricket greens and all that and I would shed every last drop of blood for my country if it was invaded but I don't need to shout it from the rooftops. It's embarrassing and very un-English.

 

For me it is not about "shouting it from the rooftops". It is about the gradual pressure to erase the national identity of the English. For years now, on any form, for example, when asked for your nationality you have no choice but to choose the GB or UK option rather than English. The Cross of St George IS NOT the fascist symbol that many would have you believe. It is the flag of our country which mustn`t be seen as "offensive" to anyone living here. Guy Fawkes Night is to celebrate the uncovering of the Gunpowder Plot in 1605. It is not to celebrate stories from Indian folklore or anything else. TV always shows Chinese New Year celebrations but not any English Mayday celebrations. People have been trying for years to get "Land of Hope and Glory" etc removed from "The Last Night of the Proms" because these works are seen as too jingoistic and might offend somebody. The list of seemingly small issues is endless. As I have said before on this thread, I am not a "Little Englander" and I am quite proud that this country shows great tolerance and encouragement toward other cultures, but I want to be able to "celebrate" mine without being made to feel like I am doing something wrong. This is not "racism" or if it is, it is an inverted sort.

[TheCholulaKid]

As I have said before on this thread, I am not a "Little Englander" and I am quite proud that this country shows great tolerance and encouragement toward other cultures, but I want to be able to "celebrate" mine without being made to feel like I am doing something wrong. This is not "racism" or if it is, it is an inverted sort.

 

 

I'm sure you're not a Little Englander but I am genuinely interested why you feel the need to 'celebrate' it?