dune Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 The Conservative Party needs to be forced to the right and such moves will scare the living daylights out of them. I'm afraid this is the only way to restore the Conservative Party to what it should be. I applaud in advance those who stand by their convictions and join the UKIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 April, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 April, 2012 http://order-order.com/2012/04/11/toryukip-defection-runners-and-riders/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchen Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Great news. Anything that weakens this coalition of the damned is to be welcomed. Especially if it leads to a general election before the Tories have finished gerrymandering the constituency boundaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 I agree with the OP that the current crop of Conservatives are not traditional Conservatives. There have been a couple of good debates on Radio 4 about where the traditional values of the left and right have gone. Most commentators conclude that all parties are in thrall to the tenets of neo-liberalism, and that we don't have any real left or right to speak of. That's a real problem. Wholesale reform of the market economy is off the table, as is the question of Europe. I think traditional Conservative voters would have loved to have had a referendum on the question of Europe. Cameron and his cohort were anti-EU in the run-up to the election, yet crapped their pants when forced to debate it in the Commons, betraying a large number of their voters into the bargain. I have a lot of respect for the 80-something rebels who called on Cameron to listen to the public's views. It'll be very interesting to see how many defect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 They should resign and rerun an election sanding under a UKIP mandate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 They should resign and rerun an election sanding under a UKIP mandate. What? On the basis that they are not delivering on the manifesto they promised? You'd have to unseat most of Parliament with that justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 I agree with the OP that the current crop of Conservatives are not traditional Conservatives. There have been a couple of good debates on Radio 4 about where the traditional values of the left and right have gone. Most commentators conclude that all parties are in thrall to the tenets of neo-liberalism, and that we don't have any real left or right to speak of. That's a real problem. Wholesale reform of the market economy is off the table, as is the question of Europe. I think traditional Conservative voters would have loved to have had a referendum on the question of Europe. Cameron and his cohort were anti-EU in the run-up to the election, yet crapped their pants when forced to debate it in the Commons, betraying a large number of their voters into the bargain. I have a lot of respect for the 80-something rebels who called on Cameron to listen to the public's views. It'll be very interesting to see how many defect. NOt sure why there are any folk/voters/party members left that are still obsessed by their 'traditional' positions... These are the blinkered few from both sides be they raging tories, or stalwart socilaists - time, the global economy and culture have made both 'traditions' out dated, look ignorant and unelectable. We do not live in dickensian times without any workers rights that created the socialist cause, nor do we live in time where industrialists or land pwners can simply not give a flying feck how they treat their workers - The Japanese showed how productivity can be INCRESED by effective and trusting ralationships between workers and management - sadly for the UK we never learnt the lesson and the Unions fecked whole industries - as did the complete and utter ack of any compassion or understanding of the impact on society of Thatcher's crushing of them... two opposites that had such negative impacts on the country - the unions crippling R+D and development, Thatcher whole communities - plenty of estates where everyone worked at the car plant or coal mine - small decent communities turnied in to wastelands of joy riders and litter in under 5 years of thatchers policy... and yes the Unions were in part to blame.... Politics should never be about 'old traditions' but about offereing the best policies and approches for OUR country in the CURRENT global economy, which a compassion for the electorate. Sadly too many voters and political wonnabees on all sides seem stuck in some victorian time warp, ingrained with views of howTHEIR party has and always should act and behave... and forgetting that anything that does not evolve - becomes extinct. I look forward to teh day when traditional tory values as well as old school socialism are extinct as they are ineffective in the modern world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 What? On the basis that they are not delivering on the manifesto they promised? You'd have to unseat most of Parliament with that justification. Nope. I know that technically MPs can do what they like, but switching from Conservative to a one issue party is a bold move. They should get a mandate to back up such a statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Nope. I know that technically MPs can do what they like, but switching from Conservative to a one issue party is a bold move. They should get a mandate to back up such a statement. Did this government ever bring in the rule they banged on about, namely if enough people petitioned it, a bye-election could be called? If this wholesale defection actually happens, that'll be the end of Dave, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 NOt sure why there are any folk/voters/party members left that are still obsessed by their 'traditional' positions... These are the blinkered few from both sides be they raging tories, or stalwart socilaists - time, the global economy and culture have made both 'traditions' out dated, look ignorant and unelectable. We do not live in dickensian times without any workers rights that created the socialist cause, nor do we live in time where industrialists or land pwners can simply not give a flying feck how they treat their workers - The Japanese showed how productivity can be INCRESED by effective and trusting ralationships between workers and management - sadly for the UK we never learnt the lesson and the Unions fecked whole industries - as did the complete and utter ack of any compassion or understanding of the impact on society of Thatcher's crushing of them... two opposites that had such negative impacts on the country - the unions crippling R+D and development, Thatcher whole communities - plenty of estates where everyone worked at the car plant or coal mine - small decent communities turnied in to wastelands of joy riders and litter in under 5 years of thatchers policy... and yes the Unions were in part to blame.... Politics should never be about 'old traditions' but about offereing the best policies and approches for OUR country in the CURRENT global economy, which a compassion for the electorate. Sadly too many voters and political wonnabees on all sides seem stuck in some victorian time warp, ingrained with views of howTHEIR party has and always should act and behave... and forgetting that anything that does not evolve - becomes extinct. I look forward to teh day when traditional tory values as well as old school socialism are extinct as they are ineffective in the modern world. PS... This is not about a 'middle ground in a lib dem sense either - about as ineffective, wet feck wits as there ever was - this is about accepting and understanding the way teh world has evolved and offereing something that is effctive, realistic and not affraid to ditch and challenge 'traditional' party values. I would even go so far as to suggest that those stuck in their 'traditional party' view are so far up their own arseholes that they should be banned from having a vote in the first place - would make the outcome more democratic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Did this government ever bring in the rule they banged on about, namely if enough people petitioned it, a bye-election could be called? If this wholesale They are planning too, but it wouldn't be applicable for something like this. It is in the case of them being found guilty of some sort of misconduct. It effectively stops people who want to cling on rather than resigning from doing so, for example if someone got just under the minimum jail sentence etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 PS... This is not about a 'middle ground in a lib dem sense either - about as ineffective' date=' wet feck wits as there ever was - this is about accepting and understanding the way teh world has evolved and offereing something that is effctive, realistic and not affraid to ditch and challenge 'traditional' party values. I would even go so far as to suggest that those stuck in their 'traditional party' view are so far up their own arseholes that they should be banned from having a vote in the first place - would make the outcome more democratic![/quote'] The middle way was supposed to be New Labour... the so called Third Way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 PS... This is not about a 'middle ground in a lib dem sense either - about as ineffective' date=' wet feck wits as there ever was - this is about accepting and understanding the way teh world has evolved and offereing something that is effctive, realistic and not affraid to ditch and challenge 'traditional' party values. I would even go so far as to suggest that those stuck in their 'traditional party' view are so far up their own arseholes that they should be banned from having a vote in the first place - would make the outcome more democratic![/quote'] Some of the more colourful representatives on the site dune linked referred to the main parties as the LibLabCon. I'm with you brother. Everything must go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 The middle way was supposed to be New Labour... the so called Third Way. No. this is not about a 'third way or middle way' but about recognistion that we need to have a clearer less party orientated way about looking at the UKs place in a global economy and ensuring we look after our people through and a policy that balances our competve edge with serious compassion for our people - no one has got that right, and no one is saying it would be easy - Blair though about it, but still could not resist sticking his tongue, ***** or whatever else was required up Dubbyas arsehole to position himself as a global player - Cameron is a wet, ineffective ****, who has the lib dems up his ringpiece and is only in power because anyone on the planet could have beaten Gorden Brown.... a raving looney that ****ged the rotting corpses of nuns would have been more electable that Gorden Brown - despite the fact he's not a bad bloke, just a crap politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 tell you what frank. why don't you tell us what you really think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 ... and yes I have been drinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 tell you what frank. why don't you tell us what you really think I'm a tryin' brother.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 They should resign and rerun an election sanding under a UKIP mandate. I agree with you in principle, but frankly, it would be funnier if they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Promising news. I will hopefully be meeting Farage at a UKIP event on friday. In Basingstoke, open entry if anyone fancies it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Promising news. I will hopefully be meeting Farage at a UKIP event on friday. In Basingstoke, open entry if anyone fancies it.. 'open entry' - would be carefull there - especially with these uKIP types - went to public schools you know and they is secon only in the buggary stakes to prisons... or so I am told... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Who can say no to an open entry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 'open entry' - would be carefull there - especially with these uKIP types - went to public schools you know and they is secon only in the buggary stakes to prisons... or so I am told... Calm down, UKIP has a wide mix of 'social backgrounds' if its that important to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 April, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Promising news. I will hopefully be meeting Farage at a UKIP event on friday. In Basingstoke, open entry if anyone fancies it.. I was a member of UKIP, but let it lapse when the tories got back in, reckon i'll rejoin at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Calm down, UKIP has a wide mix of 'social backgrounds' if its that important to you. twas a stab at humour - maybe not so good, but then that is why I ain't making a fortune in stand up - but humour nonetheless.... there are many form working classs families that attend private schools - parents just have to hold down 4 jobs betwen them to pay for it - and good on them for to for putting their kids education ahead of 46 inch plasma tellies, Sky and boob jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 I was a member of UKIP, but let it lapse when the tories got back in, reckon i'll rejoin at some point. Although i by no means agree with everything UKIP say, they seem like the best option for me at the moment. People mock Farage but he's been speaking out about things like ridiculous levels of public spending for years. I like the fact he can actually have a laugh too, unlike so many of what you'd call the liberal elite. The party has great potential for growth, look at the 2 and a half million votes in the last European elections. I think Daniel Hannan would be a great edition to the party, i hope he is one of them in talks. He makes some cracking speeches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 twas a stab at humour - maybe not so good' date=' but then that is why I ain't making a fortune in stand up - but humour nonetheless.... there are many form working classs families that attend private schools - parents just have to hold down 4 jobs betwen them to pay for it - and good on them for to for putting their kids education ahead of 46 inch plasma tellies, Sky and boob jobs.[/quote'] Apologies, techy mood! Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Apologies, techy mood! Agreed. NO worries, I might not agree with your politics, but your manners are sound! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 April, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 April, 2012 (edited) Although i by no means agree with everything UKIP say, they seem like the best option for me at the moment. People mock Farage but he's been speaking out about things like ridiculous levels of public spending for years. I like the fact he can actually have a laugh too, unlike so many of what you'd call the liberal elite. The party has great potential for growth, look at the 2 and a half million votes in the last European elections. I think Daniel Hannan would be a great edition to the party, i hope he is one of them in talks. He makes some cracking speeches. I cannot see the Conservative Party allowing them to grow to a level that challenges them more than they already do. If you look in key marginals such as Southampton the UKIP vote stopped the Tories winning a majority. But the Tories need a little push and defections to the UKIP combined with a strengthening of support will eventually see a decent leader elected. Someone like David Davies was just what the party needed. He would've been a real vote winner amongst the working classes. The Labour voters who put a cross next to the Tory candidate in the 80's on polling day but never admitted it. Edited 15 April, 2012 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 April, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Are the 'swivel-eyed cranks and fruitcakes' about to take revenge? The Cameroon abuse of UKIP is a dangerous game Michael Howard branded them 'cranks and gadflies'. David Cameron dubbed them 'fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists'. Now energy minister and uber-modernising Cameroon lieutenant Greg Barker has condemned their 'swivel-eyed' rhetoric. We are talking about Nigel Farage's UK Independence Party, best known for its enthusiasm for pulling Britain out of the European Union. It would appear the Tory establishment is less than enamoured of UKIP given the vitriol it periodically hurls in their direction. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2130149/Are-swivel-eyed-cranks-fruitcakes-revenge-The-Cameroon-abuse-UKIP-dangerous-game.html#ixzz1s8ogFnQX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 April, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 April, 2012 (edited) Another good article. I've been saying all this for ages, and quite why the Blue Labour Tories can't see it just shows how out of touch they are with reality. They pour scorn on UKIP, yet the truth of the matter is that they are so far removed from the reality and gravity of the situation that the scorn is actually on their own incompetence. The closing paragraph is on the money. UKIP is a very real threat and the Tories should mock UKIP views at their peril. In contrast to the current über-moderniser analysis, George Osborne, as the Conservative party's election supremo, has always taken the threat seriously. Ahead of the 2008 local elections, he was obsessed with trying to ensure that Ukip did not jeopardise Tory progress against Gordon Brown. Now the Conservative leadership faces a strategic dilemma. In 2008 and in 2010 they could play the Eurosceptic card and say that Cameron was determined to govern as a robust opponent of further EU integration. To what extent will such promises be believable this time? Don't all answer at once. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100150336/the-rise-of-ukip-is-a-nightmare-for-david-cameron/ Edited 15 April, 2012 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 April, 2012 Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Dune, why are you not an advocate for evolution? - forget words like 'modernization' or 'change' - but evolution away from political rhetoric of all 'traditional' party policy - policy that was developed in different eras and under vastly different social and economic circumstance... the same applies to all parties by the way, not just the right - perhaps even more so the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 April, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 April, 2012 Dune' date=' why are you not an advocate for evolution? - forget words like 'modernization' or 'change' - but evolution away from political rhetoric of all 'traditional' party policy - policy that was developed in different eras and under vastly different social and economic circumstance... the same applies to all parties by the way, not just the right - perhaps even more so the left.[/quote'] I am an advocate of evolution. All this chasing of the so called middle ground is very out of date. MP's like Bill Cash and kate Hoey are what people want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 16 April, 2012 Share Posted 16 April, 2012 I am an advocate of evolution. All this chasing of the so called middle ground is very out of date. MP's like Bill Cash and kate Hoey are what people want. Middle ground suggests 'compromise' and loss of principles which is why some on both sides are looking to the party traditionalists - BUt I am not talking about compromise or loss of principles but about recognition and working towards a NEW set of principles and policy that are not stuck in a victorian time warp - and are based on the NEEDS of Britain in the current and future global economy - Businesses, horizon scan, try and anticipate the future market trends and ensure tehy are well placed to meet them and thus ensure long term profitability. Political parties are all too often constrained by their own baggage of history and rhetoric and **** it from adult debate around letting real electorate and Country needs define policy... affaid they lose their 'hard core' traditional voters, rather than focussing on gaining new supporters who are enlightened enough to base their voting choice on policy that is fit for purpose in a modern society.... rather than following ingrained party lines, no matter how hopeless the candidates might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 April, 2012 Share Posted 16 April, 2012 (edited) Superb. Bring it on. I sometimes wonder if Clegg and Cameron actually discussed manifesto compatability before agreeing to a coallition. Everything the Tories said they would do, they have renegged upon. The LibDems have a ridiculous amount of power considering just how many MPs they bring to the parliament majority. I suppose it at least got rid of Brown. They are full of power hungry control freaks that leak to the press as soon as they fail to stop something. A eunuch has more balls than Cameron thanks to them. This government aint working. The Tories should call a spade a spade and call an election and fight it on real Conservative policies. Make David Davis leader. Call it now before the stupid Labour party and unions finally wake up to the total irrelevance and unelectability of Ed Millband. In the meantime, UKIP should field a full number of candidates and get out there canvassing. They might get a few seats, and if so maybe they can tip the balance. Edited 16 April, 2012 by alpine_saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 16 April, 2012 Share Posted 16 April, 2012 Farage is a fruit loop and inadvertently Ed Miliband's biggest friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaford Saint Posted 16 April, 2012 Share Posted 16 April, 2012 I love Dune's posts. On and on and on. I have no one to vote for.....there is no substantial difference betwen any party - why Dune insists there is is beyond me I do believe that the EU Europe, the US and the UK finished. Too much debt exists....I went to the Holocaust exhibition at the Imperial War Museum and it crossed my mind that once the full effect of the cuts take effect we open oursleves up to the posibility of Nazis, Neo Nazi's and right wing elements coming into power promising the earth etc. It won't be the Jews who get marginalisd it will be foreigners instead. Never mind.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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