Titanic Remembrance at Reading game

[SW11_Saint]

Interesting blog fom The Echo website a couple of months ago. Apologies if this has been highlighted before but couldn't see anything and thought it worth raising again.

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/view_from_the_chapel/9528467.Saints_and_Titanic___the_fabric_of_Southampton/

 

I tend to agree with the writer - given that the Titanic disaster was one of the biggest and most tragic events to hit the city, it would be fitting to marks the 100th anniversary while 30,000 or so with connections to Southampton are in one place.

 

Four out of every five crew members came from the city. 547 Sotonians died on 14 April 1912. There will surely be numerous people at SMS that night who have direct family ties with the disaster. Just a look at the interactive map of the city (below) showing who died/survived brings home just how huge the impact must have been.

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/heritage/titanic/crew/map/

 

Does anyone know if the club is going to mark the anniversary? I definitely think it would be fitting. Even if it was just the laying of a wreath prior to kick off. Perhaps we could lobby the club in some way? It is an important part of our city's heritage.

[Ohio Saint]

My Great Grandad was a survivor, so I'm all right Jack. Dunno what the fuss is about.

 

Seriously, it would be nice, but I can't see a silence being maintained well to be honest.

[Mowgli]

Please. Not again.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?35063-Titanic-Sinking-100th-Anniversary-at-SMS&highlight=Titanic

 

We need to get behind the team. Together as one. Stop trying to raise debate where people have perfectly legitimate opposing views. Can we just focus on the football?

[alpine_saint]

Please. Not again.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?35063-Titanic-Sinking-100th-Anniversary-at-SMS&highlight=Titanic

 

We need to get behind the team. Together as one. Stop trying to raise debate where people have perfectly legitimate opposing views. Can we just focus on the football?

 

Explain how 5 minutes commemorating this before kick-off prevents everyone getting behind the team.

 

Why have you got such a f**king problem about this ? I note you were the first to dismiss it on the original thread too.

 

I take it you had no relatives on the Titanic, like many of us had.

[Thedelldays]

no no and NO

[alpine_saint]

no no and NO

 

How about one "no" and a reasonable coherent explanation of your motivation ?

[Badger]

I think the general view on the previous thread, from memory and without re-reading it, was that yes, it would be fitting to do so, but no we probably will not be marking it.

 

Personally I think it appropriate given the city's maritime history and the scale of loss we suffered, but realistically a minutes silenced is unlikely to be observed , and NA/NC may feel it is a distraction from the business in hand.

[Mowgli]

Ok. Who had 16 minutes?

[Leicestersaint]

I fully support a moment's silence before the Reading match - I doubt there has been a single day when the city lost more people. This would help show that the Club can represent the wider city. I can't understand the opposition which just appears mindless. Let's do it - what email should we write to?

[CB Fry]

Anyone from our old guard remember any memorial for the fiftieth anniversary? Or the 75th? I don't recall anything for the 80th or 90th.

 

Can't say I am bothered either way, but I don't think the club have any obligation here.

[manji]

There are enough mawkish public demonstrations of grief (especially at football matches) as there is. I loved what the Man utd. fanzine The Red Issue called the people that go over-board about it ......."Grief Junkies" .

Edited 1 April, 2012 by manji

[richie]

Me neither. I think its something kids growing up should know about etc etc and I am facisnated by it and watch docu's when they are on tv but a minutes silence before a footie match, even its a saints match seems a bit over the top.

 

It was hardly WW1.

[The Kraken]

It's a sensitive subject; I certainly think the city should be doing a hell of a lot in terms of rememberance. I'm split on whether the club should or not, and can see the arguments on either side as to what SFC should do before the game.

 

If the club are going to do something, it needs to be built up so that people know its going to happen. Just having an off the cuff on the day "by the way, we're having a minute's silence for the Titanic" is inappropriate, it's all or nothing for me.

 

But in any case, I'm out of the country until May so it's not really something that affects me anyway...

[manji]

How about one "no" and a reasonable coherent explanation of your motivation ?

I would have thought DD (as a mariner) has a particular right to express his opinion.

[SW11_Saint]

There are enough mawkish public demonstrations of grief (especially at football matches) as there is. I loved what the Man utd. fanzine The Red Issue called the people that go over-board about it ......."Grief Junkies" .

Presume 'over-board' wasn't a bad taste pun? And is marking a historic tragic event once in hundred years really going over the top?!?

[SW11_Saint]

Please. Not again.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?35063-Titanic-Sinking-100th-Anniversary-at-SMS&highlight=Titanic

 

We need to get behind the team. Together as one. Stop trying to raise debate where people have perfectly legitimate opposing views. Can we just focus on the football?

In what sense do you think marking an historic event for 60 seconds detracts from supporting the team?!? Wibble...

Edited 1 April, 2012 by SW11_Saint

[Thedelldays]

In what sense do you think marking an historic even for 60 seconds detracts from supporting the team?!? Wibble...

why does it have to evolve around football...?

[The Kraken]

why does it have to evolve around football...?

You could ask the same question about Rememberance day, couldn't you?

[Thedelldays]

You could ask the same question about Rememberance day, couldn't you?

you could...fair point

[SW11_Saint]

why does it have to evolve around football...?

Biggest gathering of Sotonians in the city in one place between 10th and 14th April. Probably best you (re)read the blog (again), rather than me regurgitating it for you.

[Thedelldays]

Biggest gathering of Sotonians in the city in one place between 10th and 14th April. Probably best you (re)read the blog (again), rather than me regurgitating it for you.

stop getting all defensive...it seems the club are not really going to do anything (yet)...and not a great deal we can do

I'm sure there is a place in the city to go

[SW11_Saint]

You could ask the same question about Rememberance day, couldn't you?

Welll said.

[alpine_saint]

I would have thought DD (as a mariner) has a particular right to express his opinion.

 

You'll have to point out to me how that post of mine inferred he has no right to express his opinion, in fact, I encouraged him to drop the melodrama and elaborate further.

 

I note he has declined to do so. And I get accused of being a drama queen...

 

I also dispute his profession of choice somehow gives him the right to tell what the rest of us is appropriate or not.

 

Finally, I find it distasteful that the idea of a simple low-key commeration of a city-wide tragedy is compared to ridiculous acts of mawkishness such as following Dianas death and following Mwamaba's collapse.

[SW11_Saint]

stop getting all defensive...it seems the club are not really going to do anything (yet)...and not a great deal we can do

I'm sure there is a place in the city to go

Not getting defensive at all - merely pointing out it is a waste of (my) effort re-hashing Dan Kerins arguments.

[The Kraken]

Welll said.

 

Yes, but on the flip side, Rememberance Day is a time to reflect on the contributions made and lives lost of those in all wars, not just ones from years past. As I've said above, I can understand the arguments for and against. Overall, I think its much more important for the city to have a major event to commemorate the anniversary than it is for the football club to do so. If SFC choose to do something then great. If they don't, I wouldn't choose to criticise them for it.

[manji]

Presume 'over-board' wasn't a bad taste pun? And is marking a historic tragic event once in hundred years really going over the top?!?

Yes. I am very concious of this cities history. But then would you have a minutes silence for the people killed in Southamptons Blitz, Soldiers killed from local regiments and so on ? and as DD says why has got to be commemorated at a football match ? We have a Titanic memorial for example............

I am not in any way denigrating any of the people who have perished in any of these incidents. I just object to 1. Football being co-opted for these events and 2.The growing desire by the public to be seen to be doing a spot of public grieving. Another name for it is "Mourning Sickness" some say (including me ) the public displays of mourning are fake and are more for the benefit of the people grieving than for the victims.

[CB Fry]

Presume 'over-board' wasn't a bad taste pun? And is marking a historic tragic event once in hundred years really going over the top?!?

 

How come we only get to mark it once every hundred years. Was it not as important last year and is it all forgotten again in 2013? Either this is really important to the people of the city or it isn't. And I don't remember any minute silences for it before.

 

The point is the club could do something or they could do nothing. They will do what they like.

But a minutes silence seems to me ill fitting. Especially as there are no survivors left and the vast vast majority of people in the ground wont have even met a survivor. To me it's like having a minutes silence at Leicester City for the battle of Bosworth.

 

So I have no objection for something but I fail to see how a minutes silence is the only option.

Edited 1 April, 2012 by CB Fry
remove that tapatalk thing.

[Badger]

. Another name for it is "Mourning Sickness" some say (including me ) the public displays of mourning are fake and are more for the benefit of the people grieving than for the victims.

 

Agree with you to a point but I don't think you can compare Southampton marking a single event with those from another seafaring city who never miss an opportunity to wallow in self pity at every tragedy and event.

[SW11_Saint]

Yes, but on the flip side, Rememberance Day is a time to reflect on the contributions made and lives lost of those in all wars, not just ones from years past. As I've said above, I can understand the arguments for and against. Overall, I think its much more important for the city to have a major event to commemorate the anniversary than it is for the football club to do so. If SFC choose to do something then great. If they don't, I wouldn't choose to criticise them for it.

I would agree too, and there are other events going on in the city to mark the occasion. It just seems a little perverse to me that we'd pass up the chance to commemorate this event when 30k 'Sotonians' are in one place - even if it's jut applauding a few Titanic victims descendants laying a wreath at pitchside before the game.

[Leicestersaint]

How come we only get to mark it once every hundred years. Was it not as important last year and is it all forgotten again in 2013? Either this is really important to the people of the city or it isn't. And I don't remember any minute silences for it before.

 

The point is the club could do something or they could do nothing. They will do what they like.

But a minutes silence seems to me ill fitting. Especially as there are no survivors left and the vast vast majority of people in the ground wont have even met a survivor. To me it's like having a minutes silence at Leicester City for the battle of Bosworth.

 

So I have no objection for something but I fail to see how a minutes silence is the only option.

 

The Battle of Bosworth did not involve the deaths of over 500 Leicester people - and it wasn't 100 years ago!!

[SW11_Saint]

Yes. I am very concious of this cities history. But then would you have a minutes silence for the people killed in Southamptons Blitz, Soldiers killed from local regiments and so on ? and as DD says why has got to be commemorated at a football match ? We have a Titanic memorial for example............

I am not in any way denigrating any of the people who have perished in any of these incidents. I just object to 1. Football being co-opted for these events and 2.The growing desire by the public to be seen to be doing a spot of public grieving. Another name for it is "Mourning Sickness" some say (including me ) the public displays of mourning are fake and are more for the benefit of the people grieving than for the victims.

Think I, and others, have countered your points elsewhere, but again, I don't think subtly and sensitively marking the 100th anniversary of this tragic event that directly impacted hundreds of So'ton families falls into the "mourning sickness' type stuff that has you foaming at the mouth (again!).

[SW11_Saint]

So I have no objection for something but I fail to see how a minutes silence is the only option.

Not really sure anyone has said it's the only option, it is the most obvious one to suggest though I guess.

[CB Fry]

The Battle of Bosworth did not involve the deaths of over 500 Leicester people - and it wasn't 100 years ago!!

 

My point is a hundred years ago is a remarkably long time to wait before deciding this is something a football club needs to mark. Sure the council are doing stuff but that is as much about civic history rather than "remembrance" entirely. My point is it would resemble something that Ashby parish council (or whoever) would do about Bosworth. This is not remembrance really because no one remembers. Its History and human interest, which is all good. But in that scope I don't see any obligation from the club to participate.

[The Kraken]

My point is a hundred years ago is a remarkably long time to wait before deciding this is something a football club needs to mark. Sure the council are doing stuff but that is as much about civic history rather than "remembrance" entirely. My point is it would resemble something that Ashby parish council (or whoever) would do about Bosworth. This is not remembrance really because no one remembers. Its History and human interest, which is all good. But in that scope I don't see any obligation from the club to participate.

The more I think of it, the more I agree with this approach. And its not being cold-hearted or disrespectful of those who lost their lives, but I don't see how a minute's silence is particularly relevant to the SFC of today. It may be a poor comparison to make, but if we're now doing minute's silences for landmark anniversaries, would we also expect one for the various anniversaries of Ted Bates' passing? Or other club legends? Gone, but never forgotten, and we shouldn't need a minute's silence to remember that.

 

I still hope the city do something to commerorate the day; that is entirely appropriate.

[John Boy Saint]

Not really sure anyone has said it's the only option, it is the most obvious one to suggest though I guess.

There is nothing to celebrate, so silence is apt.

 

Southampton is a Maritime city with a very long history with the sea, this is the most notable maritime disaster that taught people so much, with a famous ship who's home city was Southampton. Although many folks were from elsewhere 4 out of 5 crew members were from Southampton. Of those who perished A Third were from Southampton.

 

Everyone got their knickers in a knot over Muamba, but 100 years ago this event devastated the city: My late Grandad was a nipper when she left Southampton he always recalled it like it was yesterday, also being under 10 at the time he always said about the numb devastation in the city after the event because everyone knew someone who died.

Southampton is famous throughout the world because of its maritime history, Titanic will never let people forget that throughout the world.......................A minutes silence will not cost anyone any inconvenience to remember those ordinary folks from our fine city.

[Marsdinho]

As I mentioned in the original thread, the "four out of every 5 crewe members were from Southampton" is massively misleading.

 

Most of the crew gave Southampton addresses, they weren't FROM Southampton, just lived here whilst they worked on the cruise ships and associated trades.

 

Im not saying this is why SFC should or shouldnt mark the occasion, just can we please get our facts straight before we get all hot under the collar.

[SW11_Saint]

Im not saying this is why SFC should or shouldnt mark the occasion, just can we please get our facts straight before we get all hot under the collar.

In which case, I am not even sure why you are making the point? Whether it's 2/5, 3/5 or 4/5 - and whether people were born & bred or mere residents (actual or on paper) - the event had a massive impact on the city, and that is really what we re talking about.

[SW11_Saint]

There is nothing to celebrate, so silence is apt.

 

Southampton is a Maritime city with a very long history with the sea, this is the most notable maritime disaster that taught people so much, with a famous ship who's home city was Southampton. Although many folks were from elsewhere 4 out of 5 crew members were from Southampton. Of those who perished A Third were from Southampton.

 

Everyone got their knickers in a knot over Muamba, but 100 years ago this event devastated the city: My late Grandad was a nipper when she left Southampton he always recalled it like it was yesterday, also being under 10 at the time he always said about the numb devastation in the city after the event because everyone knew someone who died.

Southampton is famous throughout the world because of its maritime history, Titanic will never let people forget that throughout the world.......................A minutes silence will not cost anyone any inconvenience to remember those ordinary folks from our fine city.

That is what I was thinking.

[alpine_saint]

There is nothing to celebrate, so silence is apt.

 

Southampton is a Maritime city with a very long history with the sea, this is the most notable maritime disaster that taught people so much, with a famous ship who's home city was Southampton. Although many folks were from elsewhere 4 out of 5 crew members were from Southampton. Of those who perished A Third were from Southampton.

 

Everyone got their knickers in a knot over Muamba, but 100 years ago this event devastated the city: My late Grandad was a nipper when she left Southampton he always recalled it like it was yesterday, also being under 10 at the time he always said about the numb devastation in the city after the event because everyone knew someone who died.

Southampton is famous throughout the world because of its maritime history, Titanic will never let people forget that throughout the world.......................A minutes silence will not cost anyone any inconvenience to remember those ordinary folks from our fine city.

 

In which case, I am not even sure why you are making the point? Whether it's 2/5, 3/5 or 4/5 - and whether people were born & bred or mere residents (actual or on paper) - the event had a massive impact on the city, and that is really what we re talking about.

 

Two great points.

 

I think it is irrelevant if some of those who died, historically viewed as Sotonians were actually from Liverpool or Belfast. The fact is that their familes grieved and had to pick up the pieces in this town. There was a very interesting article in one of the papers a while back, the link was posted on here somewhere, telling the stories of hardship and support that happened.

 

This was a massive event in the history of the city, and the football club carries the name of the city. For me there is nothing to debate; the club should mark the passing of the anniversary. I dont understand the controversy, and am putting down the nay-sayers motivation to simply being the usual contrary and cantankerous individuals.

[Marsdinho]

In which case, I am not even sure why you are making the point? Whether it's 2/5, 3/5 or 4/5 - and whether people were born & bred or mere residents (actual or on paper) - the event had a massive impact on the city, and that is really what we re talking about.

 

Nah, your right. Forgot this was the SWF, why let facts get in the way of a good moan.

[alpine_saint]

Nah, your right. Forgot this was the SWF, why let facts get in the way of a good moan.

 

It was an utterly irelevant fact.

[The Kraken]

Two great points.

 

I think it is irrelevant if some of those who died, historically viewed as Sotonians were actually from Liverpool or Belfast. The fact is that their familes grieved and had to pick up the pieces in this town. There was a very interesting article in one of the papers a while back, the link was posted on here somewhere, telling the stories of hardship and support that happened.

 

This was a massive event in the history of the city, and the football club carries the name of the city. For me there is nothing to debate; the club should mark the passing of the anniversary. I dont understand the controversy, and am putting down the nay-sayers motivation to simply being the usual contrary and cantankerous individuals.

 

Out of interest, assuming you won't be attending the game, what will you be doing to mark the occasion?

[SW11_Saint]

Nah, your right. Forgot this was the SWF, why let facts get in the way of a good moan.

Well "the facts" state that 4/5 crew members were from Southampton. You dispute that fact, and I am in no position to defend it or otherwise (not being an expert on the topic), but your challenge is just irrelevant. Also not sure who is moaning? We're just having a debate on whether the club should, or should not, acknowledge the centenary of the sinking of the Titanic, and the associated loss of life, as the Ships home port.

[Lighthouse]

No because:

 

- It has nothing to do with the football club. Yes a lot of the victims were from Southampton, but the Titanic had naff all to do with football.

- If you want to remember the victims, do it. Go to one of the many memorials around the world and lay some flowers, stand in silence or whatever. Nobody is stopping you.

- We're not remembering it, we're remembering the 100 year anniversary of it. It's just a nice convenient round number, why not remember the 87th anniversary?

- I've already had to sit through 3 seperate minutes silences just for Gary Speed. West Ham had a minutes applause for Muamba and he wasn't even dead. It's getting silly, I have to draw the line somewhere.

[Dr Who?]

Hope we do not get that sinking feeling!

[John Boy Saint]

No because:

 

- It has nothing to do with the football club. Yes a lot of the victims were from Southampton, but the Titanic had naff all to do with football.

- If you want to remember the victims, do it. Go to one of the many memorials around the world and lay some flowers, stand in silence or whatever. Nobody is stopping you.

- We're not remembering it, we're remembering the 100 year anniversary of it. It's just a nice convenient round number, why not remember the 87th anniversary?

- I've already had to sit through 3 seperate minutes silences just for Gary Speed. West Ham had a minutes applause for Muamba and he wasn't even dead. It's getting silly, I have to draw the line somewhere.

 

So Southampton Football Club have chuff all to with the City of Southampton and it's history!

 

Tut! Bloody Belgians

[Dellman]

I hope the City is making a commemoration (I know the new maritime museum is being opened that day with a Titanic memorial display) and I expect the local churches will mark the day and there are already five Titanic memorials in the city which will doubtless receive wreaths, the football club really doesn't need to do anything, it's not a church and it isn't home to any of the memorials

[John Boy Saint]

I hope the City is making a commemoration (I know the new maritime museum is being opened that day with a Titanic memorial display) and I expect the local churches will mark the day and there are already five Titanic memorials in the city which will doubtless receive wreaths, the football club really doesn't need to do anything, it's not a church and it isn't home to any of the memorials

 

You are right it's not a Church, It's a bloody Cathedral where these past few seasons we have witnessed the re birth of the Mesiah called Southampton Football Club!!!

 

Bloody Heretic's!!!!!

[CB Fry]

No because:

 

- It has nothing to do with the football club. Yes a lot of the victims were from Southampton, but the Titanic had naff all to do with football.

- If you want to remember the victims, do it. Go to one of the many memorials around the world and lay some flowers, stand in silence or whatever. Nobody is stopping you.

- We're not remembering it, we're remembering the 100 year anniversary of it. It's just a nice convenient round number, why not remember the 87th anniversary?

- I've already had to sit through 3 seperate minutes silences just for Gary Speed. West Ham had a minutes applause for Muamba and he wasn't even dead. It's getting silly, I have to draw the line somewhere.

 

 

This is a great post and sums it up beautifully. There is a lot of frothing at the mouth from the usual suspects who I suspect did naff all to commemorate the 99th, 98th or 80th, 75th or any other anniversary of this tragedy but are working themselves up in a frenzy about the club potentially ignoring it when it is being covered and marked comprehensively for anyone who wants to get involved elsewhere.

 

The Titanic commemoration is not "remembrance" - it's a civic history event marking a convenient historical landmark, which the council are marking. Portsmouth can (and do) mark similar things relating to the Victory or the Mary Rose. It's the fabric of history, not the remembrance of anyone anyone alive actually knew.

 

It is not required for the football club to do anything, much like the football club weren't required to send a hot air balloon up when the Balloon festival used to be on. Let the city mark the event.

Edited 1 April, 2012 by CB Fry

[CB Fry]

So Southampton Football Club have chuff all to with the City of Southampton and it's history!

 

Southampton Football Club is part of the history of the city but that doesn't mean it needs to appropriate every other piece of history of the city. Maybe the club should turn Tudor House into a club shop, and get Kelvin and Ricky to practice penalties in the gateway of the bargate of an evening.

 

Southampton FC has had 99 previous years to mark the passing of all those people on that boat, its a bit late for people to start complaining now.