Saint 76er Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 Further to FF's thread on the Staplewood redevelopment, that does bring into question how such major projects are to be funded. SW project will cost serious money, does anyone have a heads up on that value, 10 million+ perhaps? We know the Liebherrs don't do debt, which suggests there is a pot put aside for things such as this and rumour has it that Markus did make such an arrangement. Certainly, Cortese hasn't seemed to bat an eyelid as the SW plans became ever more grandiose. He must be very sure of his funding arrangements for this as NPC income won't pay for it, or probably PL income either as, although large, that will get eaten up in player and other admin expenses. Also NC, almost from day one, has spoken openly about expanding SMS or even a brand new stadium, which would involve really serious money! Can't see him going out and getting a loan for this though, which brings us back to the "pot", or internal funding already in place. A short while ago someone had a thread claiming inside knowledge of a really huge sum said to be available. The amount was so large as to make most of us dismiss it instantly and probably rightly so, however with SW underway and now with the PL looming talk is bound to increase of stadium redevelopment, so the question is ... exactly what funding arrangements does Cortese have with the Liebherrs for such major infrastructure projects, as the monetary figures involved will be simply huge and would normally be way beyond a club such as us, or at least a club such as we used to be ..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 No one knows and anyone that says they do is either guessing, a bull*****er or an attention seeker. Thread closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 No one knows and anyone that says they do is either guessing, a bull*****er or an attention seeker. Thread closed. To be honest, Turkish is very much on the money here, if you'll excuse the pun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint 76er Posted 25 March, 2012 Author Share Posted 25 March, 2012 No one knows and anyone that says they do is either guessing, a bull*****er or an attention seeker. Thread closed. Well, somebody may know something and with a potential return to the PL looming now is the time when all the whispers of ramping things up once we reach the promised land may start to become reality. The SW redevelopment may be the thin end of that particular wedge. Unlike Lowe, it may be that the Liebherrs are prepared to speculate on their investment in order to increase it's overall value. If that is the case then we are in for exciting times and discussion boards are exactly where fans might like to discuss such matters ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Made in Southampton Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 I know but I'm not tellin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 Not doing debt is not the same as not be ing prepared to invest in something that wilkl ake a return. Eg. Buy a plot of land for 100k - Spend another 150k build in a house out of your own cash, spend anouth 50K on fixtures and fittings. Total investment = 300k - value of property is now 400K sell and you have 100k profit. Even if you had borrowwwd tsay 250k from the bank, only spent 50k of your own cash, even after interest you might by 80k in profit. We should not confuse borrowing with debt - so even if the monies to build staplewood were borrowed from the Liebherr estate, provide the investment increases the value of the asset they own, they are always quids in. Its true, nobody knows what the nature of funding or directors loans are - all we have is that snipet from Nicola that Markus made 'provision' for the club - but what that is no body knows. If I were to speculate, it would be that spending money on Staplewood does increase the asset value + the investment made to help promotion does the same thing - so its most likely strategic and from a business perspective makes perfect sense as the value of SFC is now far greater that what Markus paid + the cash that has been spent eg approx 30mil spent, value after promotion around 50mil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSixty Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 I'd like the area around the stadium to be developed. Its a bit of a ****hole really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 The club are interested in the development opportunities around St Mary's including the waterfrontage and have discussed the matter with the City Council Understand that most of the properties are on long leases of are owned freehold which is a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 The club are interested in the development opportunities around St Mary's including the waterfrontage and have discussed the matter with the City Council Understand that most of the properties are on long leases of are owned freehold which is a problem Heard the same with the difference that some of the area around the ballast sites, leases come up next year. I wont add further as to what we intend to do there on the basis that I'm not sure my "barber" is a credible source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 Won't the end-of-year accounts show whether Staplewood is debt-financed or not? Even if it's counted as an asset, this wouldn't feature on the P&L accounts. That wouldn't answer how big some magical pot of Liebherr money might be, but it might indicate whether or not there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 I'm all for infrastructure projects and building for the future. For example I would much sooner see us spend 20 mil improving/expanding the stadium than spend it on players. You only have to look at Pompey as a prime example of a club with nothing to show for 6 years in the Premiership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 Thats a little harsh Dune, they did put a roof on the the away end with their 7 years (11 years if you include 4 years of parachute payments) of Premier League money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 (edited) No one knows and anyone that says they do is either guessing, a bull*****er or an attention seeker. Thread closed. A few years ago this forum was a nightmare with a little clique who were used by various noddy owners for PR purposes. I will never forget Keith starting a thread "Mike asked ME to ask YOU ....." and then him being jetted off to Sweden so he could write match reports from the pre-season tour. And half of them would just drop little hints along the lines of "I know something very important about XXXXXX but I can say no more" and then another cliquette would post to suggest they don't reveal any more followed by loads of grovelly posts and pms. It made me cringe. Edited 25 March, 2012 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 A few years ago this forum was a nightmare with a little clique who were used by various noddy owners for PR purposes. I will never forget Keith starting a thread "Mike asked ME to ask YOU ....." and then him being jetted off to Sweden so he could write match reports from the pre-season tour. Bit disengenous - Keith was pro Mike Wilde and Crouchie before he was even got to know them - so he was 'rewarded' for his positive PR effort. I met Mike Wilde and found him to be a genuine bloke, same as Crouch despite that fact that to this day I still believe that they were very niave about why we were in the sheite. We were in the mess because of relegation despite having many players on 1/2 wage relegation clauses - most blamed Lowe (ironically) for NOT spending big on the first team whilst in the prem, instead investing in staplewood, and the stadium... hindsight is a wonderful thing. Crouch and Wilde made mistakes, but they both had a fans perspective and the interests of the club at heart. The mistakes were the orange Tango man and his cronies and blowing the 7mil we had as cash on a promotion attempt - which interestingly had it come off, would probably see us still with Wilde and CRouch, but my estimate would be with around 40-50 mil of debt right now. Keith is sound. Never agreed with him, did not share his opinion, but he is fair and courteous in defending his opinions. Good debate is what this forum should be about. Some prefer mud slinging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 money on more projects ...? how about painting the gasometers red and white ? or, building SMS's own railway platform for fans to travel in...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 I know but I'm not tellin. GOOD ! ..keep it that way. There's no-one on this site is going to be asked to contribute... so no-one should worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 Further to FF's thread on the Staplewood redevelopment, that does bring into question how such major projects are to be funded. SW project will cost serious money, does anyone have a heads up on that value, 10 million+ perhaps? We know the Liebherrs don't do debt, which suggests there is a pot put aside for things such as this and rumour has it that Markus did make such an arrangement. Certainly, Cortese hasn't seemed to bat an eyelid as the SW plans became ever more grandiose. He must be very sure of his funding arrangements for this as NPC income won't pay for it, or probably PL income either as, although large, that will get eaten up in player and other admin expenses. Also NC, almost from day one, has spoken openly about expanding SMS or even a brand new stadium, which would involve really serious money! Can't see him going out and getting a loan for this though, which brings us back to the "pot", or internal funding already in place. A short while ago someone had a thread claiming inside knowledge of a really huge sum said to be available. The amount was so large as to make most of us dismiss it instantly and probably rightly so, however with SW underway and now with the PL looming talk is bound to increase of stadium redevelopment, so the question is ... exactly what funding arrangements does Cortese have with the Liebherrs for such major infrastructure projects, as the monetary figures involved will be simply huge and would normally be way beyond a club such as us, or at least a club such as we used to be ..? It won't cost anywhere near that and they will probably borrow the money from the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 A few years ago this forum was a nightmare with a little clique who were used by various noddy owners for PR purposes. I will never forget Keith starting a thread "Mike asked ME to ask YOU ....." and then him being jetted off to Sweden so he could write match reports from the pre-season tour. And half of them would just drop little hints along the lines of "I know something very important about XXXXXX but I can say no more" and then another cliquette would post to suggest they don't reveal any more followed by loads of grovelly posts and pms. It made me cringe. Yep. Made me ****ing puke. Especially when not all the media team at that time could go but he could. Just so, so wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 (edited) It won't cost anywhere near that. I bet you it actually costs more. It is a higher spec that the majority of Premier League training grounds, many of which were built recently and their costs would suggest a very high figure for what is being built at Staplewood. Cortese has even stated the resubmitted plans are 3 times the budget of the original plans which looked to already be impressive. A lot more is being done than originally planned. Edited 25 March, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 Bit disengenous - Keith was pro Mike Wilde and Crouchie before he was even got to know them - so he was 'rewarded' for his positive PR effort. I met Mike Wilde and found him to be a genuine bloke, same as Crouch despite that fact that to this day I still believe that they were very niave about why we were in the sheite. We were in the mess because of relegation despite having many players on 1/2 wage relegation clauses - most blamed Lowe (ironically) for NOT spending big on the first team whilst in the prem, instead investing in staplewood, and the stadium... hindsight is a wonderful thing. Crouch and Wilde made mistakes, but they both had a fans perspective and the interests of the club at heart. The mistakes were the orange Tango man and his cronies and blowing the 7mil we had as cash on a promotion attempt - which interestingly had it come off, would probably see us still with Wilde and CRouch, but my estimate would be with around 40-50 mil of debt right now. Keith is sound. Never agreed with him, did not share his opinion, but he is fair and courteous in defending his opinions. Good debate is what this forum should be about. Some prefer mud slinging. Retrospectively I don't disagree with much of that, but I wouldn't want those "nudge nudge wink wink" days back. The way the club is run now is how it should be in this respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 Crouch once carved up my friend on the road heading into Southampton from Marchwood, caused a serious accident. Turned round to my friend and said don't worry, find a nice car and I'll pay for it. Can't tell if that's nice of him or a bit underhand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up and away Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 Well, somebody may know something and with a potential return to the PL looming now is the time when all the whispers of ramping things up once we reach the promised land may start to become reality. The SW redevelopment may be the thin end of that particular wedge. Unlike Lowe, it may be that the Liebherrs are prepared to speculate on their investment in order to increase it's overall value. If that is the case then we are in for exciting times and discussion boards are exactly where fans might like to discuss such matters ... To me it does not look like the Liebherrs have an active interest in Saints and I cannot see any intelligent person with a knowledge of finance getting involved in investing in a football club without the passion. There are obviously links with the club and the family but I really doubt it extends to them dipping into their own pockets to invest in a football club. There is just not the personal interest from the family as we had with Markus. I am sure they wish us well, respect their fathers wishes and hope we are a success, but I cannot see things going any further, If you look at everything that transpired previously with Markus and his father it does provide clues. The Liebherr group was split up amongst the family. Some family members never became actively involved in the company and just took the shares / value and lived their life as they wanted, others took an active interest such as Markus. When Markus left the Liebherr group he gave back all the shares and assets of his Liebherr group holding to the remaining original family, having already successfully established MALI. Upon semi retiring from MALI he then did the same as his father with his own direct family members. He had a total wealth of around £3M and a personal wealth of some where around £1.2M. It was heavily stressed when Saints were bought that this all came from his personal wealth. Upon his death the MALI group was divided amongst the immediate family and some others. I would expect most of his personal wealth to have gone to his wife and what ever funds he left for Saints and other personal projects. Although the Liebherrs have accrued vast amounts of money, there is no sign they live any where near their means, being far more conservative and frugal. So how much of Lieberrs personal wealth was left for the development of Saints? Bearing in mind the projects and cost we have taken on at Saints and without short changing the current family, I would estimate we have a pot of £150M - £200M to draw upon. I don't believe there is any chance the Liebherrs will add to that figure out of what would be their own cash, but there will be links from the Liebherrs for administering this "trust". I don't believe Cortese will have complete freedom, but sufficient within a loose agenda and the family keeping a watching brief. If we wanted to develop / rebuild / move the existing stadium I believe that would have to be funded at least partially by private investment. I would expect we have sufficient capital to get Saints to work in the long term, something like 8 -10 years, but after that we will be on our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 To me it does not look like the Liebherrs have an active interest in Saints and I cannot see any intelligent person with a knowledge of finance getting involved in investing in a football club without the passion. There are obviously links with the club and the family but I really doubt it extends to them dipping into their own pockets to invest in a football club. There is just not the personal interest from the family as we had with Markus. I am sure they wish us well, respect their fathers wishes and hope we are a success, but I cannot see things going any further, If you look at everything that transpired previously with Markus and his father it does provide clues. The Liebherr group was split up amongst the family. Some family members never became actively involved in the company and just took the shares / value and lived their life as they wanted, others took an active interest such as Markus. When Markus left the Liebherr group he gave back all the shares and assets of his Liebherr group holding to the remaining original family, having already successfully established MALI. Upon semi retiring from MALI he then did the same as his father with his own direct family members. He had a total wealth of around £3M and a personal wealth of some where around £1.2M. It was heavily stressed when Saints were bought that this all came from his personal wealth. Upon his death the MALI group was divided amongst the immediate family and some others. I would expect most of his personal wealth to have gone to his wife and what ever funds he left for Saints and other personal projects. Although the Liebherrs have accrued vast amounts of money, there is no sign they live any where near their means, being far more conservative and frugal. So how much of Lieberrs personal wealth was left for the development of Saints? Bearing in mind the projects and cost we have taken on at Saints and without short changing the current family, I would estimate we have a pot of £150M - £200M to draw upon. I don't believe there is any chance the Liebherrs will add to that figure out of what would be their own cash, but there will be links from the Liebherrs for administering this "trust". I don't believe Cortese will have complete freedom, but sufficient within a loose agenda and the family keeping a watching brief. If we wanted to develop / rebuild / move the existing stadium I believe that would have to be funded at least partially by private investment. I would expect we have sufficient capital to get Saints to work in the long term, something like 8 -10 years, but after that we will be on our own. The most logical post i've read on here for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djharvey Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 No one knows and anyone that says they do is either guessing, a bull*****er or an attention seeker. Thread closed. Have to agree with this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djharvey Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 It won't cost anywhere near that and they will probably borrow the money from the bank. Stoke built something very similar recently and cost was over £5 million just for the main building. What we are doing will prob cost a fair bit more with all the other extras recently proposed so at an educated guess i would go for about £7.5 million as a minimum. The same architects AFL have also been employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 (edited) To me it does not look like the Liebherrs have an active interest in Saints and I cannot see any intelligent person with a knowledge of finance getting involved in investing in a football club without the passion. There are obviously links with the club and the family but I really doubt it extends to them dipping into their own pockets to invest in a football club. There is just not the personal interest from the family as we had with Markus. I am sure they wish us well, respect their fathers wishes and hope we are a success, but I cannot see things going any further, If you look at everything that transpired previously with Markus and his father it does provide clues. The Liebherr group was split up amongst the family. Some family members never became actively involved in the company and just took the shares / value and lived their life as they wanted, others took an active interest such as Markus. When Markus left the Liebherr group he gave back all the shares and assets of his Liebherr group holding to the remaining original family, having already successfully established MALI. Upon semi retiring from MALI he then did the same as his father with his own direct family members. He had a total wealth of around £3M and a personal wealth of some where around £1.2M. It was heavily stressed when Saints were bought that this all came from his personal wealth. Upon his death the MALI group was divided amongst the immediate family and some others. I would expect most of his personal wealth to have gone to his wife and what ever funds he left for Saints and other personal projects. Although the Liebherrs have accrued vast amounts of money, there is no sign they live any where near their means, being far more conservative and frugal. So how much of Lieberrs personal wealth was left for the development of Saints? Bearing in mind the projects and cost we have taken on at Saints and without short changing the current family, I would estimate we have a pot of £150M - £200M to draw upon. I don't believe there is any chance the Liebherrs will add to that figure out of what would be their own cash, but there will be links from the Liebherrs for administering this "trust". I don't believe Cortese will have complete freedom, but sufficient within a loose agenda and the family keeping a watching brief. If we wanted to develop / rebuild / move the existing stadium I believe that would have to be funded at least partially by private investment. I would expect we have sufficient capital to get Saints to work in the long term, something like 8 -10 years, but after that we will be on our own. I would estimate we don't have anywhere near that. It wouldn't surprise me if the family decided to sell the club in the summer, or failing that the summer after if we stay up. I think the Leibherrs have invested the money but entirely on the assumption that they would get the money back and this could happen sooner rather than later. There was lots of talk of a five year plan, and I've always seen this as a finite period - ie the club being sold at the end of that five year period. In business terms its kind of a venture capitalist/turnaround strategy. Buy a business cheap, turn it around and sell on for a profit. I have never had any doubt that this is Cortese's aim, and was how he sold the idea to Markus - let's see if we can get this club from L1 to the Prem, because if we do we can get our money back. I have never really bought into the romance bit. I'd say we are just ahead of schedule so we may well be sold sooner. Saints in admin in league one was a very rare opportunity to genuinely make money out of football - if they got it right and got into the Premier League within 3/4 seasons then they could get a decent return if they could sell the club on. So far, it is working like a dream for them. Edited 25 March, 2012 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 (edited) I would estimate we don't have anywhere near that. It wouldn't surprise me if the family decided to sell the club in the summer, or failing that the summer after if we stay up. I think the Leibherrs have invested the money but entirely on the assumption that they would get the money back and this could happen sooner rather than later. There was lots of talk of a five year plan, and I've always seen this as a finite period - ie the club being sold at the end of that five year period. In business terms its kind of a venture capitalist/turnaround strategy. Buy a business cheap, turn it around and sell on for a profit. I have never had any doubt that this is Cortese's aim, and was how he sold the idea to Markus - let's see if we can get this club from L1 to the Prem, because if we do we can get our money back. I have never really bought into the romance bit. Nicola Cortese denies most of what you just said in this interview... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/8565914.stm plus this interview... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/9269293.stm plus the statements on the OS after Markus Liebherr died Yes, that first interview was before Markus Liebherr died, however Cortese has stated since Markus' death nothing has changed in terms of plans or funding for the club. In actual fact since Markus' death the club resubmitted plans for the training ground/academy which now cost 3 times that of the plans submitted when Markus was alive. So for you to believe what you do, you must think Cortese is a lier, and what evidence do you have to support that? Edited 25 March, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpb Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 The club are interested in the development opportunities around St Mary's including the waterfrontage and have discussed the matter with the City Council A monkey petting zoo, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 25 March, 2012 Share Posted 25 March, 2012 This entire thread is speculation, basically. What did turkish say in the second post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 Nicola Cortese denies most of what you just said in this interview... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/8565914.stm plus this interview... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/9269293.stm plus the statements on the OS after Markus Liebherr died Yes, that first interview was before Markus Liebherr died, however Cortese has stated since Markus' death nothing has changed in terms of plans or funding for the club. In actual fact since Markus' death the club resubmitted plans for the training ground/academy which now cost 3 times that of the plans submitted when Markus was alive. So for you to believe what you do, you must think Cortese is a lier, and what evidence do you have to support that? What evidence have I got? What evidence? Funny, I thought I was giving an opionion on a football internet forum. Let's remember who it was who dismissed all talk of a rift between the club and Pardew as "unproven speculation" because there wasn`t a video interview about it on the OS. So my advice is stick to the computer games you f u c king weirdo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 I'm all for infrastructure projects and building for the future. For example I would much sooner see us spend 20 mil improving/expanding the stadium than spend it on players. You only have to look at Pompey as a prime example of a club with nothing to show for 6 years in the Premiership. Slightly disagree it is about balance, spending 20m to improve/expand stadium but still being in the championship/relegated from premiership would be pointless.Whilst having a healthy Balance Sheet is vital so is playing in the top flight to ensure long term sustainable growth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 There is always another angle. Simple "Commercial" logic of Project Finance. What is the cost and what is the return? I know that it has been posted & published many times, but the Highest Level of PL Academy attracts funding from the PL (I recall it being 2.5mil per year) So IF it costs 10 mil to build Staplewood then that is 4 years of the money. If you then take the Academy as a "Business Unit" within the "Greater Club" it has annual running costs - rent for the extended part we have on a long lease, rates utilities, Salaries for all the staff and the Youngsters etc. It then has income - Sponsorship and of course, Player Sales ANY businessman can look at the figures for the past 7 years and see the Maths - the Business Unit makes a profit, which then benefits the greater Football Club. As a stand alone, (keeping things simplistic) you could walk into Dragons Den and get the cash investment needed to expand, let alone a Bank. (Especially IF you as CEO happened to have been a reasonably successful Banker) Same COULD hold true IF a new Stadium was to be built. The Greater Football Club owns Jacksons Farm. Currently it is next to worthless. Go through the process (using this new planning law Coalition stuff) to get permission to build the new Stadium surrounded by a Mixed Use resdiential/Commercial development, sell off that part at a profit and the stadium cost could be halved. THEN look back at the rules on "Contaminated Land" SMS was built on the Gasworks because the land was cheap and there are rules about what can be built over what timeline. Now, some 10+ years later the land SMS occupies could become very valuable for a Hotel/Waterfront complex. The profit from the sale COULD mean that a new 45,000+ seater stadium costs the club Almost nothing. BUT of course to get to that final point, money HAS to be borrowed to cover the costs of the Project. BUT that is standard Commerce. It is a huge leap of IQ concept to understand that it is NOT being borrowed to buy Ferrari's for brainless muppets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 I would estimate we don't have anywhere near that. It wouldn't surprise me if the family decided to sell the club in the summer, or failing that the summer after if we stay up. I think the Leibherrs have invested the money but entirely on the assumption that they would get the money back and this could happen sooner rather than later. There was lots of talk of a five year plan, and I've always seen this as a finite period - ie the club being sold at the end of that five year period. In business terms its kind of a venture capitalist/turnaround strategy. Buy a business cheap, turn it around and sell on for a profit. I have never had any doubt that this is Cortese's aim, and was how he sold the idea to Markus - let's see if we can get this club from L1 to the Prem, because if we do we can get our money back. I have never really bought into the romance bit. I'd say we are just ahead of schedule so we may well be sold sooner. Saints in admin in league one was a very rare opportunity to genuinely make money out of football - if they got it right and got into the Premier League within 3/4 seasons then they could get a decent return if they could sell the club on. So far, it is working like a dream for them. I can see your point but I'm not so sure, why invest so much in the training ground if the goal was to maximise return on investment? Generally, those that pick up failing businesses, strip the fat and make them lean and profit making, certainly not interested in the extra frills which do little to add or maximise on the return. Currently, the training ground is adequate for the PL, perhaps a bit of investment to keep it at the high standard it already is, but why invest to make it the best at so much cost if you're only looking for a return? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 If you were planning to sell the club it would make little sense to spend 5-10 million on a project that from a business point of view doesn't have a guaranteed payback and return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 I know that it has been posted & published many times, but the Highest Level of PL Academy attracts funding from the PL (I recall it being 2.5mil per year) I beleive that is the funding (through grants) for all PL Enterprise Academies, not footballing ones. The University of Liverpool Management School estimates the cost to run a PL football academy to be £3-5m pounds a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 I've heard from a few fairly reliable "ITK" people that we've been up for sale for a little while - however my take on it (just a guess more than anything), is that any sale would be under a load of conditions from NC - basically him being allowed to continue in his role and with his "project". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 I bet you it actually costs more. It is a higher spec that the majority of Premier League training grounds, many of which were built recently and their costs would suggest a very high figure for what is being built at Staplewood. Cortese has even stated the resubmitted plans are 3 times the budget of the original plans which looked to already be impressive. A lot more is being done than originally planned. From memory the scheme is about 1,500 m2 of building. The build will cost c. £1,300 / m2 with the fixtures and fitting on top. I think there was also some minor external works and small pitch side stands for the training pitch, so I would estimate the facility to be about £2.5 to £3m, all in. NC wouldn't waste money in order to play bertie-big-********. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djharvey Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 From memory the scheme is about 1,500 m2 of building. The build will cost c. £1,300 / m2 with the fixtures and fitting on top. I think there was also some minor external works and small pitch side stands for the training pitch, so I would estimate the facility to be about £2.5 to £3m, all in. NC wouldn't waste money in order to play bertie-big-********. You are way off the mark. the Stoke building is about 1,600m2 of building and cost over £5million. I actually think our building may actually have more floor space (about 1,500 m2 per floor). And those minor works you speak of are a seperate new building for academy players changing facilities, some fairly small pitch stands and few other bits/bobs. Will easily top £7million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 I've heard from a few fairly reliable "ITK" people that we've been up for sale for a little while - however my take on it (just a guess more than anything), is that any sale would be under a load of conditions from NC - basically him being allowed to continue in his role and with his "project". If we're up for sale why are we investing so much money now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 If we're up for sale why are we investing so much money now? My take on it? Cortese has agreement to continue work on his "project" under the Liebherrs until a sale and probably will make it part of any sale that such plans are continued through. Don't think there is any rush to shift us to the first bidder that might come along, but I've heard a few bits from a few fairly reliable people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 My take on it? Cortese has agreement to continue work on his "project" under the Liebherrs until a sale and probably will make it part of any sale that such plans are continued through. Don't think there is any rush to shift us to the first bidder that might come along, but I've heard a few bits from a few fairly reliable people. My perspective is that this sort of investment won't increase the value of club in the short team - if anything spending club cash / taking on debt will reduce the value of the club. Hence it would be a strange move to make if you're actively trying to sell the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 (edited) My take on it? Cortese has agreement to continue work on his "project" under the Liebherrs until a sale and probably will make it part of any sale that such plans are continued through. Don't think there is any rush to shift us to the first bidder that might come along, but I've heard a few bits from a few fairly reliable people. So by saying that, you think Cortese has lied to us in his previous interviews with the BBC and the statement on the OS. Just saying "I've heard a few bits from a few fairly reliable people", doesn't make it credible to us, it is vague in the extreme. Edited 26 March, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 So by saying that, you think Cortese has lied to us in his previous interviews with the BBC and the statement on the OS. Just saying "I've heard a few bits from a few fairly reliable people", doesn't make it credible to us, it is vague in the extreme. I don't expect it to be taken as particularly credible, I can't support it with evidence, so as I say, it's my take on things, that's all. Cortese lie? I haven't said that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 My take on it? Cortese has agreement to continue work on his "project" under the Liebherrs until a sale and probably will make it part of any sale that such plans are continued through. Don't think there is any rush to shift us to the first bidder that might come along, but I've heard a few bits from a few fairly reliable people. Business just doesn't work like that and if/ when we are sold, it would be very unlikely that Cortese will be kept on after the normal transition period. We will be sold at some point, but it would be very strange to invest in things like the training ground now if they were actively looking to sell. They are so close to realising over five times what Markus paid for the club, that if there was an exit stratergy, it would make more sense to throw that money at bringing in superstars to get them over the line. Ironically though, it might (Very big might) be promotion that triggers the family to sell (Markus's wish /hopes/ dreams accomplished and a very healthy financial return on investment). I wouldn't worry about it too much though for the foreseable future, just enjoy what we've got and where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 You are way off the mark. the Stoke building is about 1,600m2 of building and cost over £5million. I actually think our building may actually have more floor space (about 1,500 m2 per floor). And those minor works you speak of are a seperate new building for academy players changing facilities, some fairly small pitch stands and few other bits/bobs. Will easily top £7million. I looked at the scheme at Stoke after your post and it seems as though they had major problems to overcome with all the statutory authorities (they had none and had to run all services in from a nearby town!) and flood plain drainage which, i suspect, added greatly to the cost, so i would be reluctant to use that as a guide. About £1,300 / m2 GIA would be right for this sort of facility (don't know what the GIA is though). The smaller academy players buildings would be c. £1,200 / m2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 Cortese lie? I haven't said that at all. Given what he said in his two interview with the BBC in 2010 (in March on Radio Solent and December on South Today/BBC Website) and the statement on the OS after Markus died, both you and him can't be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 Business just doesn't work like that and if/ when we are sold, it would be very unlikely that Cortese will be kept on after the normal transition period. We will be sold at some point, but it would be very strange to invest in things like the training ground now if they were actively looking to sell. They are so close to realising over five times what Markus paid for the club, that if there was an exit stratergy, it would make more sense to throw that money at bringing in superstars to get them over the line. Ironically though, it might (Very big might) be promotion that triggers the family to sell (Markus's wish /hopes/ dreams accomplished and a very healthy financial return on investment). I wouldn't worry about it too much though for the foreseable future, just enjoy what we've got and where we are. Oh please tell me how "business works"? What's the standard format that EVERY business agreement follows? What we've got in place currently isn't particularly "typical". NC being given pretty much free reign isn't "typical". I bet whatever the current arrangement between NC and the Liebherrs isn't "typical". I'm not suggesting we're going to be sold tomorrow. But as a business expert such as yourself must know, people are sounded out, provisional negotiations are made. In the same way that NC sold the project to Markus Liebherr, it wouldn't surprise me if he's looking to sell us on again to a similar contact. Like I say, my take on it is that NC will still stick around for a while and isn't interested in selling us to just anyone. Re, investing in infrastructure if we're going to be sold - my take on it is that ML would have written off a certain amount to be invested in Saints/infrastructure, either as part of his original purchase of the club or as part of his will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 Given what he said in his two interview with the BBC in 2010 (in March on Radio Solent and December on South Today/BBC Website) and the statement on the OS after Markus died, both you and him can't be right. Seriously lad, how old are you? You do realise that things can move on and change over time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 Oh please tell me how "business works"? What's the standard format that EVERY business agreement follows? What we've got in place currently isn't particularly "typical". NC being given pretty much free reign isn't "typical". I bet whatever the current arrangement between NC and the Liebherrs isn't "typical". I'm not suggesting we're going to be sold tomorrow. But as a business expert such as yourself must know, people are sounded out, provisional negotiations are made. In the same way that NC sold the project to Markus Liebherr, it wouldn't surprise me if he's looking to sell us on again to a similar contact. Like I say, my take on it is that NC will still stick around for a while and isn't interested in selling us to just anyone. Re, investing in infrastructure if we're going to be sold - my take on it is that ML would have written off a certain amount to be invested in Saints/infrastructure, either as part of his original purchase of the club or as part of his will. Well you started off by saying you thought the club was for sale, but that NC would want to be kept on and allowed to continue his project, which then changed to the Liebherrs would sell, but on the condition that the plans were continued. So first things first, The club is going to cost someone over 30 million, (Probably nearer 50 million + if we get promoted). So anyone with that sort of money is likely to want their own people running things or at the very least their own people on the ground. Secondly, you don't sell something for 30 million + and then say but you have to spend another 10 million over here and another 5 million over there etc. unless it's coming out of the asking price, so sorry sour mash, however much it annoyed you, as I said business just doesn't work like that. As for Cortese looking to sell us on to a similar contact, that would assume that either party (The Liebherrs & Cortese) isn't very happy with the other, or funds aren't available to match expectation or Cortese's vision, or simply that the Liebherrs want out. On the basis that Cortese has just been made an Executive Director of the group company, that would seem unlikely .The Billy Sharp signing , plus development work at Staplewood suggests that money is being invested and when you add those two bits together, it doesn't add up they are looking to get rid (Or have had the club up for sale for a while - Which was your original point). With regard to Markus writing off a certain amount to be invested in Saints, I assume you mean he allocated an amount to be invested, which is probably right (We know he created a 20 million loan note to draw down from) but as his family & Cortese are now running it, if the club were for sale, it just doesn't make any sense (Given our league position as well) to spend it on that side of things, if all they were trying to do was get rid You should also check with your sources about the senior management "Question and answer session" Cortese held a couple of weeks ago, I understand he went into quite some detail on the future and his / the families plans, goals aspirations etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 26 March, 2012 Share Posted 26 March, 2012 Well you started off by saying you thought the club was for sale, but that NC would want to be kept on and allowed to continue his project, which then changed to the Liebherrs would sell, but on the condition that the plans were continued. I haven't changed what I've said. Just my take on the situation, based on what I've heard. I certainly don't claim to be an "ITK", but have heard bits from a few different people I consider reliable. Also heard from the same people that NC is loving it here, hence that being my take on it. So first things first, The club is going to cost someone over 30 million, (Probably nearer 50 million + if we get promoted). So anyone with that sort of money is likely to want their own people running things or at the very least their own people on the ground. If the investor is brought in by NC, there is no reason Secondly, you don't sell something for 30 million + and then say but you have to spend another 10 million over here and another 5 million over there etc. unless it's coming out of the asking price, so sorry sour mash, however much it annoyed you, as I said business just doesn't work like that. Why not? As I've said, I don't think we'd be sold to just anyone and it would be NC selling his vision and project, in the same way he did to ML. Plenty of clubs have continued to be run by the same people after a change in ownership. As for Cortese looking to sell us on to a similar contact, that would assume that either party (The Liebherrs & Cortese) isn't very happy with the other, or funds aren't available to match expectation or Cortese's vision, or simply that the Liebherrs want out. On the basis that Cortese has just been made an Executive Director of the group company, that would seem unlikely .The Billy Sharp signing , plus development work at Staplewood suggests that money is being invested and when you add those two bits together, it doesn't add up they are looking to get rid (Or have had the club up for sale for a while - Which was your original point). No it doesn't assume that that anyone is "unhappy". Quite a basic approach to look at it that way. It is less likely that the Liebherr family will be involved long term now ML is no longer around. At some point the club's ownership will move on. It may be in a year, it might be in 5 years, would that mean at that point either party are unhappy? If the Lienherr family decide they no longer want a football club as part of their business portfolio, it doesn't mean they have fallen out with NC in anyway. Billy Sharp signing & Staplewood development? Two different ways of helping to establish us as a Premier League club. With regard to Markus writing off a certain amount to be invested in Saints, I assume you mean he allocated an amount to be invested, which is probably right (We know he created a 20 million loan note to draw down from) but as his family & Cortese are now running it, if the club were for sale, it just doesn't make any sense (Given our league position as well) to spend it on that side of things, if all they were trying to do was get rid I haven't said "all they were trying to do it get rid" You should also check with your sources about the senior management "Question and answer session" Cortese held a couple of weeks ago, I understand he went into quite some detail on the future and his / the families plans, goals aspirations etc. Ah, good point, I'd expect him to have divulged his future plans for the club's ownership at one of those dinners. Should have checked that. Answers in bold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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