Minty Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Get a room you two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 See post #345 That doesn't answer what will happen after these audits and the clubs are dictated to about who they can and can't pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 The audits are carried out by an independent company, the rules were written and largely influenced by the heads of the top academies. Even still, Newcastle look to be missing out on cat 1 status after the first audit. That decision will stand if that is what the audit company tell the FA to do. What happens when a club is dictated to about who they can pick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 (edited) That doesn't answer what will happen after these audits and the clubs are dictated to about who they can and can't pick. What happens when a club is dictated to about who they can pick? They aren't dictated to, clubs can pick who they want. However if they refuse to use any youth players in the first team they lose cat 1 status. Sounds entirely reasonable to base an academy rating partly on the production line rather than solely the bricks/mortar and staffing. Ofsted don't award schools "outstanding" overall, if their students don't get good grades despite having superb teachers and facilities. Edited 28 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 They aren't dictated to, clubs can pick who they want. However if they refuse to use any youth players in the first team they lose cat 1 status. Sounds entirely reasonable to base an academy rating partly on the production line rather than solely the bricks and mortar. Ofsted don't award schools "outstanding" overall, if their students don't get good grades despite having superb teachers and facilities. Yes they are, they have to pick youth products or lose cat 1 status. Do you think this is going to happen to Man U, City or Chelsea, who by your own admission practically wrote the whole EPP thing anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 What happens when a club is dictated to about who they can pick? I would guess this: If the manager doesn't play any youth products, the club run the risk of losing category 1 status. They aren't forcing clubs to use youth products, but they will lose category one privileges if they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 I would guess this: If the manager doesn't play any youth products, the club run the risk of losing category 1 status. They aren't forcing clubs to use youth products, but they will lose category one privileges if they don't. Never going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 (edited) Yes they are, they have to pick youth products or lose cat 1 status. Do you think this is going to happen to Man U, City or Chelsea, who by your own admission practically wrote the whole EPP thing anyway. Never going to happen. Well those clubs are clearly happy with it, hence why they played a large part in the creation of EPPP. The whole thing is mainly so that Premier League clubs can save money by getting the best youth players early and cheap in light of financial fair play regulations coming in. It was originally the FA's idea to improve the England side but the Premier League are using it for their own benefit. These teams aren't spending money on the academies and facilities for nothing, they intend to use their own youth players. Man Utd already have a very good record for this so it is odd you picked them. Edited 28 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Never going to happen. I expect they will come up with a loophole or an amendment so that clubs can loan out players and this counts. Clubs like Chelsea struggle to blood youngsters but have too much money and power not to be CAT 1. MLG likes rules things in black and white and being in the know. He therefore thinks that if it is written in must be true. In reality money talks and they will change it to suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Fan CaM Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 And how do you propose this will be inforced? The FA won't be able to dictate who a manager picks for their first team. Can you imagine the FA threaten Alex Ferguson and Man United with removing their cat A status if he refuses to pick certain youth players for the first team? Are you for real?!?!? How the flock is this guy supposed to be 'the enforcer'?!? You're making yourself sound like a petulant little boy with statements like that. Jeez this forum is being ruined - sorry, has been ruined - with every other thread hijacked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Never going to happen. The top clubs already fill their FA cup/League Cup/CL group games with youth and reserve players anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Are you for real?!?!? How the flock is this guy supposed to be 'the enforcer'?!? You're making yourself sound like a petulant little boy with statements like that. Jeez this forum is being ruined - sorry, has been ruined - with every other thread hijacked... And you've made a fine contribution there yourself, if I may say so. Turkish has a very good point. How will the FA make managers pick a team? They've tried and failed in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Turkish has a very good point. How will the FA make managers pick a team? I've already answered that, they aren't "making a manager pick youth players". It is entirely his choice (although club policy may now influence him), should the club not give games to youth products the category one status will be downgraded. They've tried and failed in the past. Have they? How, when and is it comparable to EPPP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 In reality money talks and they will change it to suit. Nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 And you've made a fine contribution there yourself, if I may say so. Turkish has a very good point. How will the FA make managers pick a team? They've tried and failed in the past. The point is that with all the money, time and effort going into getting the academies up to Cat 1 status these clubs should WANT to see a return anyway. If the players they're producing aren't good enough for the first team squad, they might as well lower the budget and drop to a Cat 2. I'm not sure they have to be in the starting 11 anyway, just the match day squad. And as I said above - FA and League cup and early CL games are filled with younger players anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 (edited) They aren't dictated to, clubs can pick who they want. However if they refuse to use any youth players in the first team they lose cat 1 status. Sounds entirely reasonable to base an academy rating partly on the production line rather than solely the bricks/mortar and staffing. Ofsted don't award schools "outstanding" overall, if their students don't get good grades despite having superb teachers and facilities. Yes they are, they have to pick youth products or lose cat 1 status. Do you think this is going to happen to Man U, City or Chelsea, who by your own admission practically wrote the whole EPP thing anyway. If the players they're producing aren't good enough for the first team squad, they might as well lower the budget and drop to a Cat 2. This is a key point. Why bother hanging on to category one status if you aren't using the benefits that cat 1 provides to your advantage? Edited 28 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Have they? How, when and is it comparable to EPPP? Wolves changed nearly their entire 11 to play Manchester United and were fined. Did it stop there? No. Blackpool made ten changes and lost 3 - 2 to Aston Villa, were fined £25,000. Stuart McCall got it in the neck for fielding what was deemed a 'weakened team' in the Johnstone's Paint Trophy. An entire dossier was compiled on the incident and a punishment followed. If they're not examples then I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Wolves changed nearly their entire 11 to play Manchester United and were fined. Did it stop there? No. Blackpool made ten changes and lost 3 - 2 to Aston Villa, were fined £25,000. Stuart McCall got it in the neck for fielding what was deemed a 'weakened team' in the Johnstone's Paint Trophy. An entire dossier was compiled on the incident and a punishment followed. If they're not examples then I don't know what is. Of course they aren't examples. They have nothing to do with the auditing procedure of an academy for what tier of a youth system it goes into. If clubs choose not to blood youngsters when a new audit is carried out by the independent company separate from the FA, they will be downgraded. Simple. As I pointed out, Saint Clark makes a good point above, if a club isn't blooding youngsters why would it be so desperate to hold onto category 1 status? It may aswell save money and downgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleonothing Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Appologies if already asked How often will the acadamies be audited at have their status adjusted accordingly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 When I worked at AFC Bournemouth, Eddie Howe was spitting feathers about the introduction of seven substitutes in the Football League. It actually did more harm than good, according to him, and he had a point. It's been brought back on the basis that it allows youngsters to have a better chance of getting first team football, but back when it was introduced no one saw it like that. Bournemouth had such a **** poor squad in terms of quality and numbers, Howe ended up naming Jayden Stockley as a substitute, and had to get permission from his parents as he had a lot of homework to do - I think he was about 16, maybe even younger. Half the time, Bournemouth didn't name seven subs because they couldn't, whilst their opponents could, and not only could they make the numbers up, they had better players and therefore more options to bring on and change games. As I say, it's now been reintroduced with some bright spark saying 'hang on, it's a chance for youngsters'. I doubt it will be used like that in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Of course they aren't examples They're not examples of the football authorities not trying and failing to enforce the rules? I think you'll find that's exactly what they are. Was I talking about auditing? No I was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Appologies if already asked How often will the acadamies be audited at have their status adjusted accordingly? Every 2 to 3 years iirc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 When I worked at AFC Bournemouth, Eddie Howe was spitting feathers about the introduction of seven substitutes in the Football League. It actually did more harm than good, according to him, and he had a point. It's been brought back on the basis that it allows youngsters to have a better chance of getting first team football, but back when it was introduced no one saw it like that. Bournemouth had such a **** poor squad in terms of quality and numbers, Howe ended up naming Jayden Stockley as a substitute, and had to get permission from his parents as he had a lot of homework to do - I think he was about 16, maybe even younger. Half the time, Bournemouth didn't name seven subs because they couldn't, whilst their opponents could, and not only could they make the numbers up, they had better players and therefore more options to bring on and change games. As I say, it's now been reintroduced with some bright spark saying 'hang on, it's a chance for youngsters'. I doubt it will be used like that in the real world. It's not the rest of the leagues fault that one or two clubs can't afford to name a full squad though (bearing in mind they're under no obligation to do so - I believe you don't even "have" to name a full starting 11, the minimum is something like 8 players). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 They're not examples of the football authorities not trying and failing to enforce the rules? I think you'll find that's exactly what they are. It isn't a "rule", it is categorising a youth system based on strict criteria by an independent auditing body separate from the FA. The two situations are not at all comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 (edited) It's not the rest of the leagues fault that one or two clubs can't afford to name a full squad though (bearing in mind they're under no obligation to do so - I believe you don't even "have" to name a full starting 11, the minimum is something like 8 players. Did I say it was their fault? All I'm saying is it's a flawed concept. Someone comes along and says 'this will give youth a chance' when in reality it's quite unlikely. It isn't a "rule", it is categorising a youth system based on strict criteria by an independent auditing body separate from the FA. The two situations are not at all comparable. Here we go again... The two situations are not comparable because you either don't want to understand what I'm saying or do, but can't accept it. It was about whether or not it can be enforced. I've given three examples of how the authorities attempting to enforce something hasn't worked. Edited 28 June, 2012 by Crazy Diamond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Did I say it was their fault? All I'm saying is it's a flawed concept. Someone comes along and says 'this will give youth a chance' when in reality it's quite unlikely. I know you didn't, but tbh if true Howes reaction seems a tad ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 They're not examples of the football authorities not trying and failing to enforce the rules? So if something is not not failing dat means it's... erm help me out here kermie are you pro or con whatever we is arguing about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 I know you didn't, but tbh if true Howes reaction seems a tad ridiculous. Well at the time, he was working with a small, not very talented squad, wasn't allowed to sign players and the club was yet to pay off its debts. At the same time he had to field a team, keep it competitive, avoid relegation. I think a lot of their players were injured as well - Howe himself couldn't kick a ball properly because of a long standing injury, but amazingly played on for longer than he was advised to. I'm not sure you can blame someone for taking it badly when suddenly the opposition is given an advantage over you when all that's happening. Of course, Bournemouth should never have been allowed to get into that situation in the first place, I grant you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Here we go again... The two situations are not comparable because you either don't want to understand what I'm saying or do, but can't accept it. It was about whether or not it can be enforced. I've given three examples of how the authorities attempting to enforce something hasn't worked. "Enforce"? Enforce what? It isn't a "rule", clubs do not have to blood youngsters. However if they don't then they will be downgraded in an independent auditing procedure. You also haven't answered this... If a club isn't blooding youngsters why would it be so desperate to hold onto category 1 status? It may aswell save time, money and effort and downgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 So if something is not not failing dat means it's... erm help me out here kermie are you pro or con whatever we is arguing about? Sorry Mr. Bear, I'm saying that the footballing authorities can say they'll do this or do that, but in the past, they've set an example - fining teams for certain actions - and it's not stopped those actions happening again. I'm not talking about audits or whatever ******** that the maths teacher is prattling on about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 "Enforce"? Enforce what? It isn't a "rule", clubs do not have to blood youngsters. However if they don't then they will be downgraded in an independent auditing procedure. You also haven't answered this... If a club isn't blooding youngsters why would it be so desperate to hold onto category 1 status? It may aswell save money and downgrade. the very same reason why chelsea plough loads of cash into their development squad...one day, they may unearth a world star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Sorry Mr. Bear, I'm saying that the footballing authorities can say they'll do this or do that, but in the past, they've set an example - fining teams for certain actions - and it's not stopped those actions happening again. I'm not talking about audits or whatever ******** that the maths teacher is prattling on about. But the fact is that if they're downgraded, they're downgraded. The clubs have no say in the matter. Or are you saying that you think they'll continue signing up young players from areas they're not allowed to, regardless of academy status? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Sorry Mr. Bear, I'm saying that the footballing authorities can say they'll do this or do that, but in the past, they've set an example - fining teams for certain actions - and it's not stopped those actions happening again. If a club is downgraded what "actions" will it repeat in the future? There is a difference between classification and rules/rule enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 If a club isn't blooding youngsters why would it be so desperate to hold onto category 1 status? It may aswell save time, money and effort and downgrade. Reputation. Do you think clubs with fantastic records of producing good young players on a consistent basis will like to be told they're second rate under new criteria? No. At the same time they've got a team to field and games to compete in, all whilst trying to achieve results. Middlesbrough is a good example. Would Middlesbrough like to be told after producing lots of good players over a period of time that they're not one of the best academies, which could harm their intakes of players and such like? No they would not. At the same time, their bigger priority is to get back to the Premier League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 But the fact is that if they're downgraded, they're downgraded. The clubs have no say in the matter. Or are you saying that you think they'll continue signing up young players from areas they're not allowed to, regardless of academy status? here is one...arsenal still have not been given CAT1 status...lest say they don't... will their reputation be degraded....not a chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 the very same reason why chelsea plough loads of cash into their development squad...one day, they may unearth a world star And if they are downgraded they won't be allowed to do this. Chelsea were one of the main players forcing through EPPP. I'm sure they are more than happy with it and how it fits with their future strategy as they played a key role in writing it. here is one...arsenal still have not been given CAT1 status...lest say they don't... will their reputation be degraded....not a chance Same applies to Arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Sorry Mr. Bear, I'm saying that the footballing authorities can say they'll do this or do that, but in the past, they've set an example - fining teams for certain actions - and it's not stopped those actions happening again. I'm not talking about audits or whatever ******** that the maths teacher is prattling on about. Oh yeah I get that, if like Man Utd decide their youth ain't as good as ours they is just gonna buy ours, **** off theirs to pompey and if the football mods complain they is just going to tell them to go **** themselves. There is no way they're getting their academy downgraded either cos they're man utd and what they is really after is getting a scholes or giggs come through every 10 years and they is not giving a **** what it costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Or are you saying that you think they'll continue signing up young players from areas they're not allowed to, regardless of academy status? Yeah, I think that might well happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Yeah, I think that might well happen. just move the family nearer......good old says, eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 just move the family nearer......good old says, eh Chelsea were buying new houses and on one occasion a new kitchen for parents of players they wanted to sign. Do people seriously think that they can stop that kind of thing happening? Let's not forget that Mark Chamberlain moved his son on to us when it was good for him. I even know of a player whose parents signed him a top, top agent when he was playing in the Ryman Premier League at enormous expense, all because they wanted their kid to have a career in the game. He got a move to a Championship club, made one appearance in the FA Cup, dropped down to League Two. They got what they wanted and were willing to buy the services of an agent that represented players in the England team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 But the fact is that if they're downgraded, they're downgraded. The clubs have no say in the matter. Or are you saying that you think they'll continue signing up young players from areas they're not allowed to, regardless of academy status? Yeah, I think that might well happen. They won't be allowed to register them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Yeah, I think that might well happen. just move the family nearer......good old says, eh I must admit, I was wondering about whether this would happen myself. With every new initiative there's problems that need ironing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 I must admit, I was wondering about whether this would happen myself. With every new initiative there's problems that need ironing out. I've been at Staplewood when a scout from Liverpool was banging on the security gate trying to get Gareth Bale's attention so he can 'have a word'. I've stood on the touchline at youth matches where a scout is on the phone saying 'yeah we'll have him, maybe give him a trial'. If people think that sort of thing will stop overnight then they're plain wrong. They won't be allowed to register them. They won't be allowed to register a player that say comes from Newcastle but is at a London club? Fine, so as we were discussing just now, what if the family move to London, which has happened many times before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latter day saint Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 do any of you ever do any work ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 do any of you ever do any work ? Says the man with almost 3500 posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Sticking to the subject of Staplewood, as per the thread title, I'd be interested to see what the site looks like now. Players are about to come back for fitness tests aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 Sticking to the subject of Staplewood, as per the thread title, I'd be interested to see what the site looks like now. Players are about to come back for fitness tests aren't they? Half were in today for tests and half tomorrow. Youth team and development squad came back a week or so ago and many already have tests done. Training for the 1st team properly starts next week and they go to Champney's for a week like they did last year, before the Liebherr tournament on the 14th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 What's the expected completion date of the training ground? Will certainly be interesting to see the extent of the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 (edited) What's the expected completion date of the training ground? Will certainly be interesting to see the extent of the changes. June 2013 has been given as a date, although the second phase hasn't been given planning permission yet. You can see the extent of the changes in detail on the New Forest website... Phase One... http://web3.newforest.gov.uk/planningonline/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeDocs&TheSystemkey=178604 Phase Two... http://web3.newforest.gov.uk/planningonline/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeDocs&TheSystemkey=178603 Edited 28 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 28 June, 2012 Share Posted 28 June, 2012 June 2013 has been given as a date, although the second phase hasn't been given planning permission yet. You can see the extent of the changes in detail on the New Forest website... Phase One... http://web3.newforest.gov.uk/planningonline/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeDocs&TheSystemkey=178604 Phase Two... http://web3.newforest.gov.uk/planningonline/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeDocs&TheSystemkey=178603 I meant actually seeing it in real life; rather than just as a planning design. Will be rather impressive when its all done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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