Staplewood

[SaintBobby]

Wolves are making Molineux bigger by knocking down 3 stands one by one and starting again for a lot less than that.

 

 

They have nearly finished one stand at a cost of £15m. All three stands will cost £50m in total and take capacity to 38,000. If they do the fourth stand it takes them to 50,000.

 

http://www.molineuxpride.co.uk/

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, I've never been to a match at Wolves, but aren't the current facilities at Molineux pretty awful in terms of e.g. corporate hospitality? From what I can see on that site, they also need things like a megastore.

 

If St. Mary's was a crumbling 1950s stadium with a capacity of 32,000 but with Dell-like facilities, I could see the case for a major makeover in the Premiership - increasing corporate capacity from 200 to 2,000; making sure the club shop isn't a Scout Hut, ensuring the toilet facilities aren't just a concrete wall and a gutter etc etc.

 

It might also be that in undertaking such a revamp, you take the one-off opportunity to increase capacity by 5k or 10k.

 

But St. Mary's isn't a crumbling 1950s stadium. It's pretty damned modern (I'm not sure I'd describe it as state-of-the-art, but it's definitely "fit for purpose").

 

If Wolves are undertaking this exercise solely (or primarily) to increase capacity, that seems pretty odd to me as they are only averaging 26,000 this season (3K below capacity) and I'd imagine this will fall if (as seems very likely) they get relegated from the top flight.

[Matthew Le God]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I've never been to a match at Wolves, but aren't the current facilities at Molineux pretty awful in terms of e.g. corporate hospitality? From what I can see on that site, they also need things like a megastore.

 

If St. Mary's was a crumbling 1950s stadium with a capacity of 32,000 but with Dell-like facilities, I could see the case for a major makeover in the Premiership - increasing corporate capacity from 200 to 2,000; making sure the club shop isn't a Scout Hut, ensuring the toilet facilities aren't just a concrete wall and a gutter etc etc.

 

It might also be that in undertaking such a revamp, you take the one-off opportunity to increase capacity by 5k or 10k.

 

But St. Mary's isn't a crumbling 1950s stadium. It's pretty damned modern (I'm not sure I'd describe it as state-of-the-art, but it's definitely "fit for purpose").

 

Molineux isn't a "crumbling 1950's stadium". It was rebuilt entirely between 1991 and 1993 after the Taylor report about the Hillsborough disaster. It is therefore only 8 to 10 years older than St Mary's.

 

If Wolves are undertaking this exercise solely (or primarily) to increase capacity, that seems pretty odd to me as they are only averaging 26,000 this season (3K below capacity) and I'd imagine this will fall if (as seems very likely) they get relegated from the top flight.

 

They were building the new stand into this season. That reduced the capacity temporarily which will have a knock on to the average attendance.

Edited 29 March, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[SaintBobby]

Molineux isn't a "crumbling 1950's stadium". It was rebuilt entirely between 1991 and 1993 after the Taylor report about the Hillsborough disaster. It is therefore only 10 years older than St Mary's.

 

Sorry, wasn't suggesting that Molineux was a 1950s stadium - was just generally saying updating facilities after several decades makes more sense than doing so after barely ten years.

 

If they are undertaking this revamp entirely to expand capacity, I don't understand their business plan (why do they need a 38K - 50K stadium when only 26K turn up in the Premier League?)

 

If the main aim and cost is to rejuvenate corporate facilities and other key revenue schemes (megastore, bars etc) than I guess I can see what they're doing.

 

But these facilities at St Mary's seem pretty adequate to me.

[Matthew Le God]

If they are undertaking this revamp entirely to expand capacity, I don't understand their business plan (why do they need a 38K - 50K stadium when only 26K turn up in the Premier League?)

 

As I said earlier...

 

They were building the new stand into this season. That reduced the capacity temporarily which will have a knock on to the average attendance.

 

If the main aim and cost is to rejuvenate corporate facilities and other key revenue schemes (megastore, bars etc) than I guess I can see what they're doing.

 

It will be a mixture of raising both ticket sales and the other revenue streams you listed, which is what Saints would also look to do.

 

But these facilities at St Mary's seem pretty adequate to me.

 

They could be better, and people have suggested the corporate facilities will receive an overhaul at St Mary's on a return to the top flight. The Markus Liebherr suite has already been built for a start.

 

Saints also averaged 30k+ in a 32k stadium in all four seasons in the top flight at St Mary's. A large number of games sold out in advance of match-day and the club even averaged over 30k in 2004/05 when it finished 20th and was relegated.

 

In 2011/12 only 10 English teams average more than 30,000. If Saints are in the Premier League in 2012/13 they will be added to that list for that season.

Edited 29 March, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[SaintBobby]

As I said earlier...

 

They were building the new stand into this season. That reduced the capacity temporarily which will have a knock on to the average attendance.

 

 

 

It will be a mixture of raising both ticket sales and the other revenue streams you listed, which is what Saints would also look to do.

 

 

 

They could be better, and people have suggested the corporate facilities will receive an overhaul at St Mary's on a return to the top flight. The Markus Liebherr suite has already been built for a start. Saints also averaged 30k+ in a 32k stadium in all four seasons in the top flight at the stadium. A large number of games sold out in advance of match-day and the club even averaged over 30k in 2004/05 when it finished 20th and was relegated.

 

Right - but whatever the knock on on overall capacity, they haven't sold out in the Premier League and they are about to be playing Barnsley rather than Man Utd.

 

My guess would be that 32,000 is probably just a little on the small side for Saints in the top flight. But that doesn't mean it's worth spending a fortune on increasing capacity to, say, 38K.

 

Basic economic laws of supply and demand tell us that prices would tend to be lower if capacity expands - so revenues don't increase proportionately with an increase in capacity.

 

If (and it's an absolutely HUGE "if"), we were able to get 38K rather than 32K for every game in the top flight, the extra revenue stream would be about £150K per game or around £3m per annum, which is not huge when compared to SKY revenues of £30m a year. In practice, of course, we'd probably only sell out for the top clubs and so it would probably be more like an extra £1.5m or so. You'd also need to be confident that we could keep up such a level of popularity consistently for many, many years (e.g. not get relegated for three decades or so).

 

This leads me to believe that £40m would be better to be invested in stocks and shares at the moment than in expanding the stadium (in terms of rate of return on investment).

 

I agree that the corporate facilities could do with a makeover though (but I imagine that's a pretty tiny outlay - a few hundred grand? maybe a million?).

 

Also, it may become plain that we really can consistently shift 40K+ tickets a game over the course of the next few years, so we should keep the whole thing under permanent review (which I guess is exactly what Cortese is doing!)

[Faz]

Right - but whatever the knock on on overall capacity, they haven't sold out in the Premier League and they are about to be playing Barnsley rather than Man Utd.

 

My guess would be that 32,000 is probably just a little on the small side for Saints in the top flight. But that doesn't mean it's worth spending a fortune on increasing capacity to, say, 38K.

 

Basic economic laws of supply and demand tell us that prices would tend to be lower if capacity expands - so revenues don't increase proportionately with an increase in capacity.

 

If (and it's an absolutely HUGE "if"), we were able to get 38K rather than 32K for every game in the top flight, the extra revenue stream would be about £150K per game or around £3m per annum, which is not huge when compared to SKY revenues of £30m a year. In practice, of course, we'd probably only sell out for the top clubs and so it would probably be more like an extra £1.5m or so. You'd also need to be confident that we could keep up such a level of popularity consistently for many, many years (e.g. not get relegated for three decades or so).

 

This leads me to believe that £40m would be better to be invested in stocks and shares at the moment than in expanding the stadium (in terms of rate of return on investment).

 

I agree that the corporate facilities could do with a makeover though (but I imagine that's a pretty tiny outlay - a few hundred grand? maybe a million?).

 

Also, it may become plain that we really can consistently shift 40K+ tickets a game over the course of the next few years, so we should keep the whole thing under permanent review (which I guess is exactly what Cortese is doing!)

 

But their owner is a property developer with gangs of navvies sat on thier thumbs at the moment, and building materials at rock bottom prices. Makes sense.

[mesaint]

You have diverted!!? You said AV didnt spend much but finished 6th..... They did spend, they spent big - £48m (08/9) and £38m (09/10) another £32m year after

 

Yes but in between 2006 to 2012 they have had 3 managers, thats a turn around in playing personnel that goes with manager changes, plus the owner changed in 2006 & brought o'neill out of semi retirement. He will have had to promise o'neill serious funding to get him to come back to work so immediately came under pressure to spend to show his committment & spend big. imho

[VectisSaint]

Similar model to the Tory party.

 

Labour = Pompey

 

Tories = Southampton

 

Simple.

 

(sorry, I've had a few glasses of port this evening so probably talking more b*****ks than usual)

Certainly hope so, please don't ever associate that bunch of ******s with Saints.

[shurlock]

Similar model to the Tory party.

 

Labour = Pompey

 

Tories = Southampton

 

Simple.

 

(sorry, I've had a few glasses of port this evening so probably talking more b*****ks than usual)

 

Alternatively

 

Southampton = good Mittelstand capitalism, a vindication of everything that is attractive about Europe.

 

Skates = the short-term, Anglo-Saxon way and why this country is going to the dogs.

 

No more bollix than you

Edited 29 March, 2012 by shurlock

[The Kraken]

Also, it may become plain that we really can consistently shift 40K+ tickets a game over the course of the next few years, so we should keep the whole thing under permanent review (which I guess is exactly what Cortese is doing!)

 

You just hit the nail on the head.

 

At the moment, despite what anyone says, no-one has any realistic idea as to what sort of regular crowds we could achieve. There are estimates we can all make (and have done to death), but for now that's all they are.

 

What we can be sure will happen over the next 2 or 3 years is that Cortese will certainly be monitoring the situation very closely, in terms of:

 

How many season ticket holders we have.

How quickly the home seats sell out.

What sort of level of applications there are for tickets beyond that.

Plus various other methods (e.g. online ballot for tickets) which would give an indication as to what a realistic capacity stadium is for us in the top flight.

 

If the numbers are proved feasible, then I'm sure a very good case will be put forward for increasing the stadium capacity. If it turns out the numbers don't stack up, then I'm sure we'll look to maximising other revenue streams.

Edited 29 March, 2012 by The Kraken

[Saint Without a Halo]

If true, it's an incredible / ridiculous amount of money to invest for a club with our income etc. If Les Reed wants to talk about boom or bust then this is an example of it if £15m is the figure. Something like 100% of income on the facilities? Crazy.

 

Although I would find it hard to believe it will cost £15m, more like £5m.

 

 

If it attracts just one future Walcott, Chambairlain or Bale it more than pays for itself!

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Why is it crazy? This adds value to the company, helps achieve category one academy status and helps attract players to the club and first team and academy level.

 

- "Crazy" would be spending 7 years in the top flight like Pompey did and still not owning a training ground or decent stadium after having years of Premier League TV money.

- "Crazy" would be spending £15m on players wages and transfer fees and not investing in infrastructure for the long term benefit of the club like Pompey.

 

 

 

You only need to look at the plans on the New Forest website to see it would cost a lot more than £5m. Other Premier League and Championship clubs have made training ground including far less than Staplewood will for prices over £5m.

 

Bit late replying to this due to my three posts a day limit.

 

In terms of this project as an idea and vision it is outstanding. I don't see any negatives to it whatsoever other than the cost of it, which is what I was worried about. If it really is £15m then I just don't think it is wise for a club with our revenues at this point in time to commit to it. Now if the owners want to plough lots of money in and turn it into shares then fine, but from a business perspective it's effectively committing 75% of yearly income to a project which is crazy. But if the owners underwrite everything then it doesn't matter.

 

Given the news we had this morning I'm far more comfortable with it than I was yesterday.

[Neil]

It was announced long before Chamberlain was sold. It was actually first announced in late 2009 before Chamberlain even made his debut.

 

Cortese has stated that even before Markus Liebherr bought the club the intention was to redevelop Staplewood.

 

Thanks, but for clarity I wasn't suggesting that selling Oxo was the trigger to go ahead and start rebuilding Staplewood. Just wondering if the fee would conveniently enough cover the cost, which with add-ons etc even at the quoted £15m it may be close to.

[djharvey]

Sorry, wasn't suggesting that Molineux was a 1950s stadium - was just generally saying updating facilities after several decades makes more sense than doing so after barely ten years.

 

If they are undertaking this revamp entirely to expand capacity, I don't understand their business plan (why do they need a 38K - 50K stadium when only 26K turn up in the Premier League?)

 

If the main aim and cost is to rejuvenate corporate facilities and other key revenue schemes (megastore, bars etc) than I guess I can see what they're doing.

 

But these facilities at St Mary's seem pretty adequate to me.

 

Surely you have realised that Nicola doesn't do Adequate!

[djharvey]

You just hit the nail on the head.

 

At the moment, despite what anyone says, no-one has any realistic idea as to what sort of regular crowds we could achieve. There are estimates we can all make (and have done to death), but for now that's all they are.

 

What we can be sure will happen over the next 2 or 3 years is that Cortese will certainly be monitoring the situation very closely, in terms of:

 

How many season ticket holders we have.

How quickly the home seats sell out.

What sort of level of applications there are for tickets beyond that.

Plus various other methods (e.g. online ballot for tickets) which would give an indication as to what a realistic capacity stadium is for us in the top flight.

 

If the numbers are proved feasible, then I'm sure a very good case will be put forward for increasing the stadium capacity. If it turns out the numbers don't stack up, then I'm sure we'll look to maximising other revenue streams.

 

There is already some pretty hard data on this available from our last stint in the top flight @ St Mary's. They just have to factor in estimates of the anticipated extra demand from the success/progress they are striving for. I gaurentee this has already been done

[Saint Garrett]

So MLG, which other teams will be category 1. Was having a chat with a Palace and a Watford fan, and they reckon they'll also be getting category 1 status?

[supersonic]

So MLG, which other teams will be category 1. Was having a chat with a Palace and a Watford fan, and they reckon they'll also be getting category 1 status?

 

It depends if they have the funds to upgrade their current facilities. I've been to Watford's training ground/youth facilities and they are pretty adequate. They may produce good players, but that doesn't warrant them gaining grade 1. As far as I am aware, it's Us, Man City and 1 other which will originally gain cat 1 status.

[Saint Garrett]

Oh right. What does Cat1 consist of ? Is it just the facilities and reputation, or is it also to do with education and other things ? I'm not very up on this to be honest.

[supersonic]

Oh right. What does Cat1 consist of ? Is it just the facilities and reputation, or is it also to do with education and other things ? I'm not very up on this to be honest.

 

as far as I'm aware, it's just facilities. Which include playing pitches, and education facilities. Nothing to do with reputation, hence why Man City are cat 1 ahead of people like Palace/Crewe etc

[stu0x]

I doubt it. Watford are hopeful of getting Cat 1, although its pretty unlikely they'll achieve it (a Cat 1 facility will cost 2.3m a year just to run, I doubt Watford have that?)

 

But Steve Parish at Crystal Palace has been very outspoken against EPPP on the basis that it will allow wealthy Prem clubs to cherry pick players away from the likes of Palace.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/crystal-palace/8956789/The-new-Elite-Player-Performance-Programme-is-bad-for-the-future-of-the-English-game.html

 

He'd hardly be saying all that if he envisaged Palace being Cat 1 themselves...

[Saint Garrett]

But surely if the opportunity comes up for them to try and gain Cat1 status, then they will take it? Whether Parish agrees with it or not ?

[Saint Charlie]

You also have to commit to spending a certain amount on the Academy per year, quite a bit if I remember about 3m.

 

Stoke are currently upgrading their Academy to be in line with Cat1 requirements.

[Matthew Le God]

So MLG, which other teams will be category 1. Was having a chat with a Palace and a Watford fan, and they reckon they'll also be getting category 1 status?

 

17 Premier League clubs and 6 Championship clubs have applied for category one status. All 23 will now be audited by an independent Belgian company. I am very confident Saints will get category one status as they have gone over and beyond what is required in the EPPP document I have seen.

Edited 12 April, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[CB Fry]

There is already some pretty hard data on this available from our last stint in the top flight @ St Mary's. They just have to factor in estimates of the anticipated extra demand from the success/progress they are striving for. I gaurentee this has already been done

 

You mean the hard data where we achieved nowhere near the level of season ticket sales (let alone anything like a waiting list) that would justify expansion. You are right there is plenty of data.

[Thedelldays]

You mean the hard data where we achieved nowhere near the level of season ticket sales (let alone anything like a waiting list) that would justify expansion. You are right there is plenty of data.

how do you know they are using ST ticket sale as a basis..?

 

even this season....if we have a for example a 38k seater stadium...would our average attendance this year be greater....would we have had more people through the turnstiles over a whole season.....

 

yes, we more than likely would have........and even more so in the premier league.

 

 

not that I think it will happen...just saying look at it another way

[dubai_phil]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/9201250/Southampton-using-Barcelona-as-template-for-success-as-they-stand-on-the-cusp-of-Premier-League-return.html

 

We ARE the new Barcelona

 

The Southampton Way.

 

Crikey what a cracking article

[Gingeletiss]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/9201250/Southampton-using-Barcelona-as-template-for-success-as-they-stand-on-the-cusp-of-Premier-League-return.html

 

We ARE the new Barcelona

 

The Southampton Way.

 

Crikey what a cracking article

 

Loved this quote..............

 

“I’m used to delivering a bit more than I promise,” he says. “Yes, promotion would put as ahead of the plan but being ahead of a plan is never an issue, being behind a plan is an issue.

[dubai_phil]

I think we should ask the Council in Marchwood to change the name of the road outside Staplewood to "The Southampton Way"

[Saint Paul C]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/9201250/Southampton-using-Barcelona-as-template-for-success-as-they-stand-on-the-cusp-of-Premier-League-return.html

 

We ARE the new Barcelona

 

The Southampton Way.

 

Crikey what a cracking article

 

That article makes you so proud to be a Southampton fan. Thank the lord for Markus and Nicola, the true modern day saviours of our fantastic football club.

[paris]

Great article ....

[rooney]

Enjoyed reading that.

[Petersfield Saint]

That article makes you so proud to be a Southampton fan. Thank the lord for Markus and Nicola, the true modern day saviours of our fantastic football club.

 

This

[The Cat]

I got quite excited reading that.

[Minty]

Good old Jezza Wilson.

[djharvey]

You mean the hard data where we achieved nowhere near the level of season ticket sales (let alone anything like a waiting list) that would justify expansion. You are right there is plenty of data.

 

Do you really think expansion is justified by the data from season ticket sales and waiting lists alone?

[Turkish]

Do you really think expansion is justified by the data from season ticket sales and waiting lists alone?

 

I think even Cortese would find your naivety and blind hero worship of him cringworthy.

[Verbal]

Cringeworthy, dearest.

[djharvey]

I think even Cortese would find your naivety and blind hero worship of him cringworthy.

 

Your opinion means nothing to me! I realised after meeting you (yes, i actually did without you realising who i was) that you are just a buffoon and a figure of fun on here!

[Turkish]

Your opinion means nothing to me! I realised after meeting you (yes, i actually did without you realising who i was) that you are just a buffoon and a figure of fun on here!

 

When was this and why didn't you say who you were?

[djharvey]

When was this and why didn't you say who you were?

 

move along now theres a good lad!

[Thedelldays]

Turkish is getting mugged off

[Turkish]

Turkish is getting mugged off

 

If being mugged off is some gobby Internet oddball claiming to meet you blut remain anonymous then I guess I have been.

[Turkish]

move along now theres a good lad!

 

Utter ****** then.

[Saint Garrett]

And I thought I brought this thread back up to discuss academies....

[Tokyo-Saint]

If being mugged off is some gobby Internet oddball claiming to meet you blut remain anonymous then I guess I have been.

 

Ha! you have then. That is actually the dictionary definition of being mugged off. What a mug!

[Turkish]

Ha! you have then. That is actually the dictionary definition of being mugged off. What a mug!

 

Bug*er.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Bug*er.

 

That's not a Smiths lyric I know

[Flyer]

Please please please do NOT compare us with. QPR. **** club, dodgy owners, pushed the prices up. Treated managers like ****. Deserve what's coming to them. Did you not see BBC prog 'the four year plan'?

 

I think you are confusing Tango and Cash with the club.

 

As it happens, Ferdnades has got the chief scout from Man City, is building a new training ground and academy and is going to build a new stadium in the next few years. Exactly what Saints have done or are doing soon.

[Dark Munster]

You also have to commit to spending a certain amount on the Academy per year, quite a bit if I remember about 3m.

 

Stoke are currently upgrading their Academy to be in line with Cat1 requirements.

So I guess that rules Cheats FC out for now?

[Matthew Le God]

So I guess that rules Cheats FC out for now?

 

They are going to be category 3.

 

Which means Saints can sign up all the best youth players in Hampshire even more easily than they are already.