kwsaint Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 I'm trying not to be biased here but let's consider it for a moment. 1) We are in no debt. We have a brilliant manager who isn't requesting a stupid number of players. A chairmen who knows what he's doing and gets on with people while at the same time charging decent rates for games. An owner who isn't looking like they are going to run out of money any time soon. 2) Structure. Southampton is built around and sound structure. That is not "let's buy now and hope we do well" but "let's build steadily and continuously at a rate which we, one day, will be able to sustain ourselves". 3) Our facilities are becoming state-of-the-art. Staplewood is getting a complete overhall and St Marys is already a UEFA 4-star stadium. 4) Position in the league. 1st and with a long-term plan. It's not simply, let's get promoted but let's get promoted and invest in the future (bringing in the likes of Lee, Sharp etc.) 5) Academy. We have one of the best academies in England. There seems to be a growing number of players coming through at premier league level and this number will probably continue to increase if we go up. 6) Fan base. Southampton is one of the biggest clubs in the south of England (excl. London). We regularly get 27k to Sat games and 22k to Tues games and this number will also continue to grow if we go up. Our away fans are also high in number since I believe we have the 2nd highest away attendance in the league. All in all, in my opinion, Southampton is kind of the perfect club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 you are trying to be biased Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 More biased then the leaning tower of Pisa. I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madruss Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 It's a pretty awesome football club, I completely agree (more than a bit biased with it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpturner Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 No they are not the perfect club - but I like 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 There is a loan out against the club from Markus I believe? We are in debt if the family chooses to collect right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 There is a loan out against the club from Markus I believe? We are in debt if the family chooses to collect right? Big 'if,' it depends on Markus Liebherr's wishes and will after death. We will almost certainly never know the details of that though considering how private his estate is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 There is a loan out against the club from Markus I believe? We are in debt if the family chooses to collect right? To my knowledge, no-one on here will have seen the agreements that were drawn up by Cortese and Liebherr, so we'll probably never know whether it was a 'loan' in the true sense of the word. My hunch (based on no fact whatsoever) is that it was a 'gift' but was declared as a 'loan' for accounting reasons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Big 'if,' it depends on Markus Liebherr's wishes and will after death. We will almost certainly never know the details of that though considering how private his estate is. the loan is £20m and is due by 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Agree except for point 1 Southampton FootballClub is in debt but we do not know if or when it is repayable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 the loan is £20m and is due by 2015 You know what i'm going to say....... ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greedyfly Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 There is a loan out against the club from Markus I believe? We are in debt if the family chooses to collect right? Unless someone wishes to correct me this is a not a loan in the sense that we borrowed it from a bank say. This is an accounting thing where the loan has come down from the top company/entity to a subsidiary and although it appears as a loan in the accounts it's really only redeemable on sale of the club for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Unless someone wishes to correct me this is a not a loan in the sense that we borrowed it from a bank say. This is an accounting thing where the loan has come down from the top company/entity to a subsidiary and although it appears as a loan in the accounts it's really only redeemable on sale of the club for example. ^ This (my hunch but much better articulated) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 The only part I disagree with is that we regularly get 27k for Saturday matches. We have done that a few times this season but, in general, it's more like 21k to 24k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 the loan is £20m and is due by 2015 Why do you think that? The only public reference to the shareholder's loan that I've seen was in our accounts which said it was not due within 5 years. That doesn't mean it is for a term of 5 years (it might be, I don't know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stepgar Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 We are what good looks like in terms the perfect football club. I think places like Reading and Stoke are also in the mould. You start to add a bit of silverware and regularly challenging for honours whether it be Europe or cups and there you have it. Good times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 the loan is £20m and is due by 2015 Importantly 'Not Before 2015'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Agree except for point 1 Southampton FootballClub is in debt but we do not know if or when it is repayable How many times has Cortese said publicly we are not in debt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 How many times has Cortese said publicly we are not in debt? apart from the £20m "loan" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 apart from the £20m "loan" I must have missed that interview.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 How many times has Cortese said publicly we are not in debt? Not as many times as people have mistaken the word 'loan' on an accountant's spreadsheet for the word 'debt'... ...in much the same way that a student loan for tuition fees isn't a debt per se... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 I believe that it includes the purchase price of all SLH assets, redeeming the stadium mortgage from Aviva, paying off debts and an injection of working capital to be repaid not before 2015. There also was a mention of being converted to equity in due course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 I must have missed that interview.... must have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewell Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 No offence but what a load of arrogant and bias tripe. The sort of post that reminds me of the Lowe years. I just hope Adkins and Cortese both continue to do a magnificent job, do not take their eye off the ball and are not as complacent as this post. COYR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Unless someone wishes to correct me this is a not a loan in the sense that we borrowed it from a bank say. This is an accounting thing where the loan has come down from the top company/entity to a subsidiary and although it appears as a loan in the accounts it's really only redeemable on sale of the club for example. Loans from parent companies to subs are still loans in the taxman's eyes unfortunately, the family has 3 choices, write off the loan in which case we still have to pay CGT on the full amount of the loan, (30% for you lot for companies I think so only 3million but still not exactly "free") claim some of it or sell the club and transfer the debt (reducing their fee for the club.) The debt is still there guys it's just a lot more friendly than a bank loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 must have Maybe re-post a link to the source information so those who aren't aware of this "£20m loan" can see it with their own eyes...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellman Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 One big thing the OP missed in his 'perfect club' analysis: the club's charitable foundation has raised a million pounds this year and now supports 35000 local people in one way or another, that is just what top clubs should do, and makes me even more proud. Whatever NC critics say (if there are any left) he has turned our club round at every level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Loans from parent companies to subs are still loans in the taxman's eyes unfortunately, the family has 3 choices, write off the loan in which case we still have to pay CGT on the full amount of the loan, (30% for you lot for companies I think so only 3million but still not exactly "free") claim some of it or sell the club and transfer the debt (reducing their fee for the club.) The debt is still there guys it's just a lot more friendly than a bank loan. Do we know what the repayment term for Liebherr's "loan" is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up and away Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 apart from the £20m "loan" Abramovich has loaned Chelsea £740M and can pull that out at any time. But when you own the club as well, you can have zero loans and still sell the club off as you wish. Abramovich is not worrying about repaying Abramovich, but it is an indicator of how self sustaining the club is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Abramovich has loaned Chelsea £740M and can pull that out at any time. But when you own the club as well, you can have zero loans and still sell the club off as you wish. Abramovich is not worrying about repaying Abramovich, but it is an indicator of how self sustaining the club is. ok, that is all well and good if we had abramovic....what about hicks and gillet...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Have I missed something here in the great scheme of things. I must admit that I do not pay too much attention to the financial side and I am more interested whats happening on the field but......................................... since when has the Liebherr's buying the club changed from an investment to a loan/debt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singeon Sears Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Have I missed something here in the great scheme of things. I must admit that I do not pay too much attention to the financial side and I am more interested whats happening on the field but......................................... since when has the Liebherr's buying the club changed from an investment to a loan/debt? I don't think you have missed anything. Some people are jumping to all sorts of odd conclusions based on, well, nothing. This forum is better viewed as a comedy club, it makes more sense then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/southampton-saints-alive.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 I don't think you have missed anything. Some people are jumping to all sorts of odd conclusions based on, well, nothing. This forum is better viewed as a comedy club, it makes more sense then. Its the way dey tell 'em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 I don't think you have missed anything. Some people are jumping to all sorts of odd conclusions based on, well, nothing. This forum is better viewed as a comedy club, it makes more sense then.http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/9100616.Good_news_for_Saints_amongst___7_7m_loss/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 But it also states the amount owed in more than five years is £20.4m as a loan to be repaid to the shareholder – that is £12m on top of what Southampton Football Club Limited owes. ummmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityRanger Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 A brilliantly titled thread imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up and away Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 ok, that is all well and good if we had abramovic....what about hicks and gillet...? One very subtle difference, it was not Hicks and Gillettes money that was actually used. The term loan has been used for possible tax and accountancy issues, but means nothing of significance to the fans when it's one person who owns the club and "lends" the money. Originally Posted by farawaysaint Loans from parent companies to subs are still loans in the taxman's eyes unfortunately, the family has 3 choices, write off the loan in which case we still have to pay CGT on the full amount of the loan, (30% for you lot for companies I think so only 3million but still not exactly "free") claim some of it or sell the club and transfer the debt (reducing their fee for the club.) The debt is still there guys it's just a lot more friendly than a bank loan. The debt as in Abramovich's case is meaningless. As the club is not making a profit, just how can these loans cost the club any extra tax. That loan can stay on the books for as long as they want, no ones going to pay any extra tax. The only real benefit these loans can make as I see it, being that if the club were sold the Liebherrs can deduct those loans from the sale price and only be subject to tax on the difference. Being that our £20M loan includes the purchase price etc, it's even of less relevance. There is no threat to Saints the club here, just the belief in the owners as with any other club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 How can we be a perfect club when we have no radio station? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singeon Sears Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Thank you Delldays - that was the very article. It's no doubt factually correct but some people have jumped to strange conclusions since. Please don't quote the "loan" sentence I have seen it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 20mil of sharelholder loan - as I understand it.... Possibly the best way to think about is to consider that Markus bought the club for £1. Already agreed via the administrator was how much Aviva and Barclays would agree to settle their positions - approximately 13 mil - ML paid this and all other minor creditors in FULL, but this cash in effect became a 'loan' to the club - In addition he also loaned approx 6 mil to the club as working capital to get us moving again - hense the 20 mil - with the proviso that this was repayable by 2015. So Markus' 'investment' in the club to date has been 20 mil including the purchase price, which is in effect converted to equity on any future sale.... We owe no one else anything. I also suspect that there may be additional funds available for Staplewood, but at this time its not clear whether this was money set aside in that original 20 mil, is in addition or is from our turnover - I suspect its additional cash to be loaned from a fund set up to fund the club which has now become Markus' legacy. So paying it back - It may be that the family (Markus's estate) wish to receive that money back from the back + their profit by selling the club in the future - As a premiership club we would probably be worth around 40 mil - so in effect the Liebherr estate is 20 mil in profit - that is in effect 100% return in 4 years - so you can see why Markus was so successful in business! - If teh club was sold tomorrow for 20 mil, we would be debt free and the Liebherr estate would have broken even - If the club was sold in 2 years time as a mid table stable prem club for 50 mil, the club would be debt free, and the Liebherr estate 30 mil in profit... thats teh way I understand it. The only slightly worrying thing is that IF the club were to be sold, a new owner could as we have seen at other clubs leverage the club and we could find ourselves once again in debt to the tune of the purchase price... Where my theory falls down is that it states that the loan is repayable by 2015 - If the club decide to use part of the prem revenues (should we get there) to repay this to the Liebherr estate, do they still 'own' the club? I guess they do so it would be like taking a dividend... so not sure about this. What I do know is this - Markus was a deeply honorable man or high morals an high integrity - he wanted to see us flourish and in Nicola, he had a trusted friend, a hard business head for sure, but almost certainly someone of the same moral standards - the provison made and legacy he left, we may never know the details, but I believe we can be sure we aint going to be in any financial trouble because of it - as long as we work towards a self sustaining model. Any sale I believe would only be to those who have those same ideals and standards. I think we have a lot more to thank Markus for, than just the saving of the club - I believe his approach and his trust in Nicola has also secured our future as one of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambol2K9 Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Its a directors loan, a common way to inject capital into a business without having having to pay tax on it when you draw it back out. Not the same as a standard loan, no interest etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 I'm trying not to be biased here but let's consider it for a moment. 1) We are in no debt. We have a brilliant manager who isn't requesting a stupid number of players. A chairmen who knows what he's doing and gets on with people while at the same time charging decent rates for games. An owner who isn't looking like they are going to run out of money any time soon. 2) Structure. Southampton is built around and sound structure. That is not "let's buy now and hope we do well" but "let's build steadily and continuously at a rate which we, one day, will be able to sustain ourselves". 3) Our facilities are becoming state-of-the-art. Staplewood is getting a complete overhall and St Marys is already a UEFA 4-star stadium. 4) Position in the league. 1st and with a long-term plan. It's not simply, let's get promoted but let's get promoted and invest in the future (bringing in the likes of Lee, Sharp etc.) 5) Academy. We have one of the best academies in England. There seems to be a growing number of players coming through at premier league level and this number will probably continue to increase if we go up. 6) Fan base. Southampton is one of the biggest clubs in the south of England (excl. London). We regularly get 27k to Sat games and 22k to Tues games and this number will also continue to grow if we go up. Our away fans are also high in number since I believe we have the 2nd highest away attendance in the league. All in all, in my opinion, Southampton is kind of the perfect club. How long did you spend with Nigel Adkins? Talk about "Taking the positives" & "Controlling the controllable's" Are you hoping to be invited for a job interview as er... Head of PR? Nicely put 'though but none of it "wins a game of football" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Nicely put 'though but none of it "wins a game of football" Maybe not every single one, but I do like the look of the league table right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsterdam Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 How can we be a perfect club when we have no radio station? Hmmm... And I've been to SMS a few times this season and STILL no sign of the chicken monkey petting zoo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Hmmm... And I've been to SMS a few times this season and STILL no sign of the chicken monkey petting zoo... Don't forget the boil in the bag burgers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulSaint Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Surely to be a perfect club we'd need a 25 strong team of nude cheerleaders, some models, some girls next door, some blonde, some brunette, some reds, some shaved, some brazillian'ed but none with seventies hair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djharvey Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 Hmmm... And I've been to SMS a few times this season and STILL no sign of the chicken monkey petting zoo... You couldn't see it, cos you were in it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwsaint Posted 22 March, 2012 Author Share Posted 22 March, 2012 No offence but what a load of arrogant and bias tripe. The sort of post that reminds me of the Lowe years. I just hope Adkins and Cortese both continue to do a magnificent job, do not take their eye off the ball and are not as complacent as this post. COYR Wait so even though everything I have said is true you disagree with it? Mate, seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 22 March, 2012 Share Posted 22 March, 2012 We have the 2nd lowest stadium in the country though, so rising sea levels might scupper us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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