Athletic Bilbao

[wagon 84]

Southampton's manager is Nigel Adkins, not Atkins. You did it twice so not a typo. Still amazing how many Saints fans can't spell Adkins, Seaborne and Connolly. Not that it matters...

 

Tell me fella who the **** really cares? now go & get a life!!

[Big Bad Bob]

What I'm saying is it doesn't bother me if it's Wales' or Wales's, it's a matter of style. I prefer the former for brevity and convenience.

 

Saw that article earlier, it's one of many conflicting sources. I've even ticked "Spanish" on my Google preferences and searched on Juan Eldoruy in case something unequivocal popped up - but as Athletic Club aren't confirming it, we're stuck with the conflicting reports until someone finds out for certain - and even then (like with the Herbert Chapman WM formation stuff and the myth that Man U changed kits in the 6-3 defeat) when someone disproves it the media just carries on reporting what they decided is the truth.

 

Never, there's never an "s" after and apostrophe if there is one before!!

 

Well, as the webstie is Athletic Channel (loosley translated) I was sort of guessing/assuming (I know, I know) that it was semi official.

[The9]

Tell me fella who the **** really cares? now go & get a life!!

 

Nigel Adkins almost certainly cares. I'm pretty sure anyone called Nigel Atkins cares too. Matthew Le God cares, I care. I know one of my mates' mates cares enough to make sure he deliberately spells it incorrectly every time he posts too just to wind people up. So that's five that I know of. It's just as arrogant to assume that no-one else is interested as it is that everyone else is interested.

 

As far as I'm concerned, with the people who aren't doing it on purpose, it's symptomatic of how little attention they pay to things, and it fundamentally weakens any argument they make, because I see "Atkins" and I think "why would I take any notice of anything else you say if it's as poorly observed as that?".

 

In this particular instance I'd give the OP the benefit of the doubt because he was claiming predictive text did it. Twice.

[The9]

Never, there's never an "s" after and apostrophe if there is one before!!

 

Well, as the webstie is Athletic Channel (loosley translated) I was sort of guessing/assuming (I know, I know) that it was semi official.

 

Like this place is for Saints history ?

 

THIS load of excessively pointless guff from Wiki is why I regard s' or s's as "a matter of style" :

 

Singular nouns ending with an "s" or "z" sound

This subsection deals with singular nouns pronounced with a sibilant sound at the end: /s/ or /z/. The spelling of these ends with -s, -se, -z, -ze, -ce, -x, or -xe.

Many respected authorities recommend that practically all singular nouns, including those ending with a sibilant sound, have possessive forms with an extra s after the apostrophe so that the spelling reflects the underlying pronunciation. Examples include Oxford University Press, the Modern Language Association, the BBC and The Economist.[18] Such authorities demand possessive singulars like these: Senator Jones's umbrella; Tony Adams's friend. Rules that modify or extend the standard principle have included the following:

If the singular possessive is difficult or awkward to pronounce with an added sibilant, do not add an extra s; these exceptions are supported by The Guardian[19], Yahoo! Style Guide[20], The American Heritage Book of English Usage[21]Such sources permit possessive singulars like these: Socrates' later suggestion; or Achilles' heel if that is how the pronunciation is intended.

Classical, biblical, and similar names ending in a sibilant, especially if they are polysyllabic, do not take an added s in the possessive; among sources giving exceptions of this kind are The Times[22] and The Elements of Style, which make general stipulations, and Vanderbilt University,[23] which mentions only Moses and Jesus. As a particular case, Jesus' is very commonly written instead of Jesus's – even by people who would otherwise add 's in, for example, James's or Chris's. Jesus' is referred to as "an accepted liturgical archaism" in Hart's Rules.

However, some contemporary writers still follow the older practice of omitting the extra s in all cases ending with a sibilant, but usually not when written -x or -xe.[24] Some contemporary authorities such as the Associated Press Stylebook[25] and The Chicago Manual of Style recommend or allow the practice of omitting the extra "s" in all words ending with an "s", but not in words ending with other sibilants ("z" and "x").[26] The 15th edition of The Chicago Manual of Style still recommended the traditional practice, which included providing for several exceptions to accommodate spoken usage such as the omission of the extra s after a polysyllabic word ending in a sibilant. The 16th edition of CMOS no longer recommends omitting the extra "s".[27]

Similar examples of notable names ending in an s that are often given a possessive apostrophe with no additional s include Dickens and Williams. There is often a policy of leaving off the additional s on any such name, but this can prove problematic when specific names are contradictory (for example, St James' Park in Newcastle [the football ground] and the area of St. James's Park in London). For more details on practice with geographic names, see the relevant section below.

Some writers like to reflect standard spoken practice in cases like these with sake: for convenience' sake, for goodness' sake, for appearance' sake, for compromise' sake, etc. This punctuation is preferred in major style guides. Others prefer to add 's: for convenience's sake.[28] Still others prefer to omit the apostrophe when there is an s sound before sake: for morality's sake, but for convenience sake.[29]

The Supreme Court of the United States is split on whether a possessive singular noun that ends with s should always have an additional s after the apostrophe, sometimes having an additional s after the apostrophe (for instance, based on whether the final sound of the original word is pronounced /s/ or /z/), or never having an additional s after the apostrophe. The informal majority view (5–4, based on past writings of the justices) has favoured the additional s, but a strong minority disagrees.[30]

 

It's just not worth knowing if even the academics can't decide. But I know for damn sure it's not Wale's.

Edited 16 March, 2012 by The9

[Bearsy]

There's been a lot of discussion here today about spelling and I think it's time for someone to man up and make a ruling. That bear is me!

 

From now on, you're only allowed to complain about a typo if it renders the sentence confusing. For example it is acceptable to spell Seaborne as Seabourne, Seaburns or Seabum up until we sign a player called Seeburn, then you'll have to take more care to avoid

 

The same ruling stands for random application of apostrophes, "atkinses" and all other associated offences. Any further non-authorised pendantry will result in sanctions!

[kpturner]

There's been a lot of discussion here today about spelling and I think it's time for someone to man up and make a ruling. That bear is me!

 

From now on, you're only allowed to complain about a typo if it renders the sentence confusing. For example it is acceptable to spell Seaborne as Seabourne, Seaburns or Seabum up until we sign a player called Seeburn, then you'll have to take more care to avoid

 

The same ruling stands for random application of apostrophes, "atkinses" and all other associated offences. Any further non-authorised pendantry will result in sanctions!

What about the use of "loose" instead of "lose", or "can I get" instead of "may I have", or "my bad".......or "PIN number"? Surely pedantry is allowed for these offenses?

[syd_barrett_saint]

Getting back to the point, yes Bilbao were excellent and Bielsa's probably my favourite "head coach" at the moment. Chile were great to watch during the World Cup as well. How they're only 7th in La Liga, who knows ? Probably because that level of energy and pressing is REALLY difficult to maintain for 90 minutes.

 

Great kit as well (except the horrible European patch on the back) - let's hope we all get to whinge about that rule in the near future again too.

 

I think they are only 7th because they didn't have a great start to the season... it took a while for the team to get used to Bielsa's ideas of constant pressing, possession and attack attack attack! I'd love Bielsa to be the next England manager... but it'll NEVER happen unfortunately. Maybe the next Saints manager when Adkins becomes England manager in a few years time? ;-)

[Bearsy]

What about the use of "loose" instead of "lose", or "can I get" instead of "may I have", or "my bad".......or "PIN number"? Surely pedantry is allowed for these offenses?

 

Use loose/lose in a sentence and I will make a ruling.

 

Under the authority of what people are already calling "The Bearsy Ruling" the use of "Can I get", "My bad" and "PIN number" are perfectly acceptable. The mods are granting me temporary mod privileges to enforce The Bearsy Ruling, I'm not thinking infractions though we're more going along the lines of increasing the annual subscription fee for pedantic posters! I hope ur rich kp cos you're already on my Most Wanted list!!!

[The9]

I think they are only 7th because they didn't have a great start to the season... it took a while for the team to get used to Bielsa's ideas of constant pressing, possession and attack attack attack! I'd love Bielsa to be the next England manager... but it'll NEVER happen unfortunately. Maybe the next Saints manager when Adkins becomes England manager in a few years time? ;-)

 

I wish. Not that I care about England particularly, I'd just love to see Adkins talk his management nonsense in that job and see what Bielsa could do with Saints... in the Prem. Think the language barrier would be too much for the level of tactics he'd want to implement - would be fine for Tadanari Lee though.

[The9]

There's been a lot of discussion here today about spelling and I think it's time for someone to man up and make a ruling. That bear is me!

 

From now on, you're only allowed to complain about a typo if it renders the sentence confusing. For example it is acceptable to spell Seaborne as Seabourne, Seaburns or Seabum up until we sign a player called Seeburn, then you'll have to take more care to avoid

 

The same ruling stands for random application of apostrophes, "atkinses" and all other associated offences. Any further non-authorised pendantry will result in sanctions!

 

I tend to adhere to these rules anyway, otherwise I'd go slowly insane. I think "Adkins" should be a minimum requirement for entry though. Unless you're Japanese, in which case basic English and excessive Chung-love is essential.

[The9]

Use loose/lose in a sentence and I will make a ruling.

 

Under the authority of what people are already calling "The Bearsy Ruling" the use of "Can I get", "My bad" and "PIN number" are perfectly acceptable. The mods are granting me temporary mod privileges to enforce The Bearsy Ruling, I'm not thinking infractions though we're more going along the lines of increasing the annual subscription fee for pedantic posters! I hope ur rich kp cos you're already on my Most Wanted list!!!

 

I don't actually have a problem with "can I get" or "my bad", as long as the user is aware they are ugly Americanisms, but use of the word "relegate" as a verb out of context : eg "when we relegate" instead of "when we are relegated" massively annoyed me on here and should result in firing squad.

 

PIN number is a tautology but used because "PI number" isn't recognised in conversation, so I think it should be allowable.

 

Loose/lose is a useful indicator of when you are dealing with an imbecile, so I'm in favour of a special rule which allows pedants free reign to tut and point, and to post about it on one in five occurrences, but no more.

 

Oh yeah, and the free movement between American and British English usage of license/licence and organisation/organization is fine, because even pedants don't usually pick up on those.

 

PS If Bearsy gets mod privileges on the Main Board I'm out.

Edited 16 March, 2012 by The9

[Big Bad Bob]

PIN number is a tautology but used because "PI number" isn't recognised in conversation, so I think it should be allowable.

 

"Can you enter your PIN please." is proper and right, anything else is WRONG.

 

What about SPARC systems? Scalable Processor Array RISC Computer, with RISC being Reduced Instruction Set Computer, so you get Scalable Processor Array Reduced Instruction Set Computer Computer.

 

Make my head explode it does!

[The9]

"Can you enter your PIN please." is proper and right, anything else is WRONG.

 

What about SPARC systems? Scalable Processor Array RISC Computer, with RISC being Reduced Instruction Set Computer, so you get Scalable Processor Array Reduced Instruction Set Computer Computer.

 

Make my head explode it does!

 

Tautologies generally don't bother me. In your first example, no-one has ever said "can you enter your PI number" to me...

[spyinthesky]

I was captivated about the Bilbao performance, the passion and colour of the crowd and the appluase for Rooney's goal

 

I was in Bilbao in the summer and liked the place especially when I was complemented by local tour guide for the saints motif on my T shirt

[Thedelldays]

I think they are only 7th because they didn't have a great start to the season... it took a while for the team to get used to Bielsa's ideas of constant pressing, possession and attack attack attack! I'd love Bielsa to be the next England manager... but it'll NEVER happen unfortunately. Maybe the next Saints manager when Adkins becomes England manager in a few years time? ;-)

their tactics can also be hit and miss....they lost to malaga before the man u game......

[VectisSaint]

I read up a few things on this when we played them in the summer, and I've seen variations on Sunderland/Southampton as the docks where Elorduy was waiting AND variations on whether Athletic Club (Bilbao) or Atletico (Madrid) got it first, and also one article which claimed Atletico Madrid were a junior club offshoot of Athletic Bilbao, which seems somewhat unlikely given the geography and social history of the areas, if not the club names.

 

The only consistencies across the stories are Juan Elorduy wanting Blackburn kits (their previous colours) and failing, so getting some red and white stripes from somewhere instead, and then giving them to at least one of the current La Liga clubs. But definitely not Gijon, as they already had those colours.

 

I'm still hung up on Charles Miller's South American tour and the similarities between the Saints sash kit and Peru's kit, tbh.

Every Spanish language site I can find mentions Southampton as the origin. Its only Wiki where some Mackem is currently making mischief that contradicts this. Elorduy was at college in southern England, there is no way that he would have gone to Sunderland to purchase the kit, and anyway there are plenty of references to him sailing from Southampton. There are even some strange references to the colours being connected to the White Star Line (Titanic etc), although this seems a little far-fetched given that the Titanic sailed in 1912, over 2 years after Elorduy allegedly departed from the same docks.

 

I am reasonably sure about the Bilbao/Madrid connection though. Athletico Madrid was a junior offshoot of the Bilbao Athletic Club for Basques in exile in Madrid.

[The9]

Every Spanish language site I can find mentions Southampton as the origin. Its only Wiki where some Mackem is currently making mischief that contradicts this. Elorduy was at college in southern England, there is no way that he would have gone to Sunderland to purchase the kit, and anyway there are plenty of references to him sailing from Southampton. There are even some strange references to the colours being connected to the White Star Line (Titanic etc), although this seems a little far-fetched given that the Titanic sailed in 1912, over 2 years after Elorduy allegedly departed from the same docks.

 

I am reasonably sure about the Bilbao/Madrid connection though. Atletico Madrid was a junior offshoot of the Bilbao Athletic Club for Basques in exile in Madrid.

 

Ok now that makes some sense. I just couldn't work out why a Basque club would have a team in Madrid. Next stop, Atletico's website.

[The9]

The wiki of Atletico mentions Eldoruy, Blackburn, Southampton, and a bunch of nonsense about them taking our black shorts and then changing to Blackburn's blue - when we were still playing in blue shorts until 1950... They also have the "mattress makers" nickname - which their website notes is from the 1920s (so after their red and white striped shirts were in use) : http://www.clubatleticodemadrid.com/Web/gestion/museo/en/escenografia.htm

 

It explains Atletico's blue and white halved change kit recently too, and they were founded by 3 Basque students.

 

Interesting that there's a link to Shanghai Shenhua on their website - and vice versa : http://www.shenhuafc.com.cn/en/ there's a strange link I wasn't aware of.

[MatthewStiles]

The Spanish link is actually from El Correo, a major newspaper in the Basque region. The journalist who wrote the article seems highly rated having won a prize http://www.elcorreo.com/vizcaya/20091022/sociedad/agiriano-gana-primer-premio-20091022.html. The Basques take their football pretty seriously so I would say it is highly probable.