Airline Tax

[Thedelldays]

Due to come in next month

 

if like me, you use Airlines all the time, this will f-ing hurt

 

this country is such a rip-off

[mightysaints]

Its a total rip off and has nothing to do with green issues.

[Saint in Paradise]

Due to come in next month

 

if like me, you use Airlines all the time, this will f-ing hurt

 

this country is such a rip-off

 

Thought you used submarines to get around?

[SOTONS EAST SIDE]

Due to come in next month

 

if like me, you use Airlines all the time, this will f-ing hurt

 

this country is such a rip-off

I agree, the airline tax is an attack on the poorer people who want to go abroad. Then find themselves priced out of it by the tax!! The Govt are trying to make airtravel/cars the rich man/woman only club!!!

[Thedelldays]

I agree, the airline tax is an attack on the poorer people who want to go abroad. Then find themselves priced out of it by the tax!! The Govt are trying to make airtravel/cars the rich man/woman only club!!!

air line tax

crazy fuel prices

trains hugely expensive

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this country is so expensive

[Saint in Paradise]

Is this something to do with a sort of EU carbon tax? I see the Chinese have said

that they aren't going to pay it and are just about going to cancel their A380 orders.

Well Hong Kong Airways is doing what the mainland Chinese have told them to do.

[dubai_phil]

It is insane.

 

It also shows "blinkered thinking"

 

Flying is NOT only about going from UK to Europe, it is a business that is about moving People from Point A to Point B via Point C - as an eg If I wish to travel from here to the US I can fly with one stop via Europe or UK I can also go direct.

 

It ALREADY costs me 100 pounds EXTRA if I wish to fly via the UK due to Green Taxes than to fly via Frankfurt Paris or Amsterdam.

Result? Myself & many many other passengers choose NOT to use BA or Virgin. For Business Travellers (who at the end of the day are the ones that really keep full service airlines running) have to then justify even HIGHER taxes to use UK airlines.

 

Likewise to get from here to Europe I can fly direct or choose to fly via the UK. It now costs more to come with one stop via the UK. So I go via EU (or even when going to Poland) Non-Eu countries and save money.

 

Sure you Brits have no choice BUT an average BA flight from ME to UK has around 35% of it's tickets bought HERE. (First Class sales percentages are probably higher) Those passengers now use alternative routes - Airline numbers in UK drop, Profits Drop, less taxes overall.

 

Less profits? Less spare cash for CSR or Internal Green initiatives, more harm to the Environment as well

 

Stupid

[SOTONS EAST SIDE]

It is insane.

 

It also shows "blinkered thinking"

 

Flying is NOT only about going from UK to Europe, it is a business that is about moving People from Point A to Point B via Point C - as an eg If I wish to travel from here to the US I can fly with one stop via Europe or UK I can also go direct.

 

It ALREADY costs me 100 pounds EXTRA if I wish to fly via the UK due to Green Taxes than to fly via Frankfurt Paris or Amsterdam.

Result? Myself & many many other passengers choose NOT to use BA or Virgin. For Business Travellers (who at the end of the day are the ones that really keep full service airlines running) have to then justify even HIGHER taxes to use UK airlines.

 

Likewise to get from here to Europe I can fly direct or choose to fly via the UK. It now costs more to come with one stop via the UK. So I go via EU (or even when going to Poland) Non-Eu countries and save money.

 

Sure you Brits have no choice BUT an average BA flight from ME to UK has around 35% of it's tickets bought HERE. (First Class sales percentages are probably higher) Those passengers now use alternative routes - Airline numbers in UK drop, Profits Drop, less taxes overall.

 

Less profits? Less spare cash for CSR or Internal Green initiatives, more harm to the Environment as well

 

Stupid

This is how stupid its got, tickets for 2 people to San Francisco from Heathrow before tax £1200 (14 days) after tax £2500!!! INSANE!!

[buctootim]

This is how stupid its got, tickets for 2 people to San Francisco from Heathrow before tax £1200 (14 days) after tax £2500!!! INSANE!!

 

Nice story, let down only by being not true. Total tax per person round trip to US is around £115 - around £65 UK and £50 US. You have more likely been suckered by the airline who want to try and make out that a big proportion of the fare they are charging is a tax - by using euphemisms such as fuel surcharge, air facility fee etc. In reality it is just money going to the airline to pay for things such as fuel and use of the airport - who'd have thunk it? Its like a taxi driver claiming their fare Southampton to Glasgow is £10 then charging you additionally for fuel, use of car, driver, tyres, insurance etc.

 

The Chicago Convention made aviation fuel tax free globally in an attempt to develop civil aviation in the post war period. One passenger's share of the fuel for flying from London to San Francisco is around 350 gallons (1450 litres). If you scrapped all current and future airline ticket taxes and just taxed aviation kerosene at the same rate as petrol or diesel for cars the price of tickets to west coast US would rise by £800. Aviation is incredibly lightly taxed compared with cars or even public transport. Time for the real cost of flying to be levied imo.

Edited 12 March, 2012 by buctootim

[Verbal]

Nice story, let down only by being not true. Total tax per person round trip to US is around £115 - around £65 UK and £50 US. You have more likely been suckered by the airline who want to try and make out that a big proportion of the fare they are charging is a tax - by using euphemisms such as fuel surcharge, air facility fee etc. In reality it is just money going to the airline to pay for things such as fuel and use of the airport - who'd have thunk it? Its like a taxi driver claiming their fare Southampton to Glasgow is £10 then charging you additionally for fuel, use of car, driver, tyres, insurance etc.

 

The Chicago Convention made aviation fuel tax free globally in an attempt to develop civil aviation in the post war period. One passenger's share of the fuel for flying from London to San Francisco is around 350 gallons (1450 litres). If you scrapped all current and future airline ticket taxes and just taxed aviation kerosene at the same rate as petrol or diesel for cars the price of tickets to west coast US would rise by £800. Aviation is incredibly lightly taxed compared with cars or even public transport. Time for the real cost of flying to be levied imo.

 

Exactly. Ia it convenient that people, when they complain, forget that aviation fuel is tax-free, or is this kept so quiet that they don't realise?

[dubai_phil]

Just did a quick check online

 

Taxes from Dubai to Paris AED 350

Taxes from Dubai to London AED 670

 

all but double.

 

Take a family to the US? Ain't using a British Airline

[Whitey Grandad]

Yup, absolutely insane. Welcome to ripoff Britain.

[Whitey Grandad]

Exactly. Ia it convenient that people, when they complain, forget that aviation fuel is tax-free, or is this kept so quiet that they don't realise?

 

Why should it be taxed?

[Verbal]

Why should it be taxed?

 

Why should what be taxed?

[Thedelldays]

leave then

just so easy isn't it.....

 

 

saying that, may have an opportunity in Perth, Australia next year

[buctootim]

The tax for economy is £65, about half the amount you quoted.

http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/as2011_rates_and_thresholds_201213.pdf

 

 

(in reply to Phil)

[buctootim]

Why should it be taxed?

 

Why should anything be taxed? Lets scrap all public services and have a feral existence killing and robbing each other.

[Whitey Grandad]

Why should what be taxed?

 

Aviation fuel.

[Minty]

There are some good points above, but equally some glaring omissions IMO.

 

The breaks that aviation already gets, versus other modes of transport, is estimated to be worth about £9 billion (fuel duty + VAT exemption). If you travel from London to Edinburgh, you pay about £25 in tax on the fuel... you pay £11 tax as an passenger on a plane.

 

There is a lot wrong with the taxation in this country IMO, and I'm personally in favour of simplifying the whole system, but even before you discuss the environmental aspects, at a very basic level it seems appropriate that aviation should be made to pay it's way in terms of tax, just like other modes of transport. Shipping should be brought into line also.

[Whitey Grandad]

Why should anything be taxed? Lets scrap all public services and have a feral existence killing and robbing each other.

 

Life's one big bowl of taxes for you, isn't it?

 

Once you've raised enough for essential services, anything else is plain greed.

 

(There's a lot of killing and robbing in our 'civilised' society)

[buctootim]

ThShipping should be brought into line also.

 

Exactly. Tax free aviation and shipping really distorts the market - not least making imports artificially cheap.

[buctootim]

Life's one big bowl of taxes for you, isn't it?

 

Once you've raised enough for essential services, anything else is plain greed.

 

(There's a lot of killing and robbing in our 'civilised' society)

 

Not really. Im not saying the tax burden overall should be higher - but its clearly anomalous that we pay, for example, VAT on nearly all purchases but not on airline travel. We pay duty on car and private yacht fuel, but not on commercial shipping and aviation.

[Micky]

Nice story, let down only by being not true. Total tax per person round trip to US is around £115 - around £65 UK and £50 US. You have more likely been suckered by the airline who want to try and make out that a big proportion of the fare they are charging is a tax - by using euphemisms such as fuel surcharge, air facility fee etc. In reality it is just money going to the airline to pay for things such as fuel and use of the airport - who'd have thunk it? Its like a taxi driver claiming their fare Southampton to Glasgow is £10 then charging you additionally for fuel, use of car, driver, tyres, insurance etc.

 

The Chicago Convention made aviation fuel tax free globally in an attempt to develop civil aviation in the post war period. One passenger's share of the fuel for flying from London to San Francisco is around 350 gallons (1450 litres). If you scrapped all current and future airline ticket taxes and just taxed aviation kerosene at the same rate as petrol or diesel for cars the price of tickets to west coast US would rise by £800. Aviation is incredibly lightly taxed compared with cars or even public transport. Time for the real cost of flying to be levied imo.

 

This. Although I can see why people do get confused as to 'where the money is going'.

 

Airlines are very good at hiding costs or making themselves 'non attributable' for them (some to the point of criminality as far as I am concerned (no names no pack drills - irish tw*t)) - time for total transparancy as far as I am concerned. Time to abolish all of the so called add on's, just tell me:

 

The total cost of the flight

How much is going to the government in taxes

 

Other than that - I don't want it all dressed up as this charge, that charge or whatever - just tell me the f*ckin' truth.

[Whitey Grandad]

Not really. Im not saying the tax burden overall should be higher - but its clearly anomalous that we pay, for example, VAT on nearly all purchases but not on airline travel. We pay duty on car and private yacht fuel, but not on commercial shipping and aviation.

 

The difference here is that international transport involves different tax regimes and if we're not careful the rest of the world will pass us by, if it hasn't already.

[Viking Warrior]

Its a bloody insult and has been an evil tax

 

I get charged four times for my flights in the UK . Blame Blair and BRown they introduced it

 

I have to pay airport Tax for my flight from Kirkwall to Edinbug. /Glasgow/ or Aberdeen then the same tax again for getting from there to Heathrow or Southampton and the same back again and I have not even left UK airspace

then new grencarbon tax is going to crucify us . It will cost me around £500 for a return trip to watch saints.

 

F***ing scandalous

[Viking Warrior]

Oh and Flybe are a huge ripoff company

 

I have an air discount card but it cheaper to use normal FLYBE flights than use my card to get off Orkney

Flybe have the Franchise , bring back Bristish airways

[Minty]

The difference here is that international transport involves different tax regimes and if we're not careful the rest of the world will pass us by, if it hasn't already.

It's a complicated issue, but the worlds position on air travel is unsustainable. The rest of the world could well pass/may already have passed us by, but things can't continue as they are indefinitely. The problem is that no one wants to be the first to actually face up to that. The EU are trying... I don't necessarily agree with the way they're going about it, but putting heads in the sand doesn't help.

 

Air travel is far more expensive than it is perceived to be. Public perception has been skewed beyond belief by budget carriers, and the airports/airlines' complaints are all about marketing and public perception than genuine concern for what is best for the industry in the long term.

 

This tax is not ideal. It is like a sticking plaster over a much bigger zit that is waiting to burst. I don't have a perfect solution... there probably isn't one, but we have to accept that, like with food and many other things, cheaper is not better, and taxes (or whatever we want to call them) need to be devised that take into account of all the relevant factors, including external costs and long term effects.

[Verbal]

Aviation fuel.

 

Tim and Minty have addressed this. The question should rather be: why should airlines be a special case?

Edited 12 March, 2012 by Verbal

[SOTONS EAST SIDE]

Nice story, let down only by being not true. Total tax per person round trip to US is around £115 - around £65 UK and £50 US. You have more likely been suckered by the airline who want to try and make out that a big proportion of the fare they are charging is a tax - by using euphemisms such as fuel surcharge, air facility fee etc. In reality it is just money going to the airline to pay for things such as fuel and use of the airport - who'd have thunk it? Its like a taxi driver claiming their fare Southampton to Glasgow is £10 then charging you additionally for fuel, use of car, driver, tyres, insurance etc.

 

The Chicago Convention made aviation fuel tax free globally in an attempt to develop civil aviation in the post war period. One passenger's share of the fuel for flying from London to San Francisco is around 350 gallons (1450 litres). If you scrapped all current and future airline ticket taxes and just taxed aviation kerosene at the same rate as petrol or diesel for cars the price of tickets to west coast US would rise by £800. Aviation is incredibly lightly taxed compared with cars or even public transport. Time for the real cost of flying to be levied imo.

Well Tim if you could find me a cheaper flight or site i'd use them!!

[buctootim]

Well Tim if you could find me a cheaper flight or site i'd use them!!

 

 

Tbh it does sound quite a lot of money - unless you're going premium economy or higher!

http://www.kayak.co.uk is a good price comparison website I use a lot, worth checking out.

[skintsaint]

 

saying that, may have an opportunity in Perth, Australia next year

 

then you will be whinging about the price of things - get ready for a six and half quid pint, 17 quid for a crappy pub lunch etc etc.

[Whitey Grandad]

It's a complicated issue, but the worlds position on air travel is unsustainable. The rest of the world could well pass/may already have passed us by, but things can't continue as they are indefinitely. The problem is that no one wants to be the first to actually face up to that. The EU are trying... I don't necessarily agree with the way they're going about it, but putting heads in the sand doesn't help.

 

Air travel is far more expensive than it is perceived to be. Public perception has been skewed beyond belief by budget carriers, and the airports/airlines' complaints are all about marketing and public perception than genuine concern for what is best for the industry in the long term.

 

This tax is not ideal. It is like a sticking plaster over a much bigger zit that is waiting to burst. I don't have a perfect solution... there probably isn't one, but we have to accept that, like with food and many other things, cheaper is not better, and taxes (or whatever we want to call them) need to be devised that take into account of all the relevant factors, including external costs and long term effects.

 

Why is it unsustainable? I see no problems with air travel.

[Whitey Grandad]

then you will be whinging about the price of things - get ready for a six and half quid pint, 17 quid for a crappy pub lunch etc etc.

 

To be fair, most of the world is expensive these days, mainly because the £ is worth bugger all.

[Minty]

Why is it unsustainable? I see no problems with air travel.

Depends how deep you're looking.

 

As it currently stands, the mixture of:

 

- Demand for growth (aircraft size / airport size / runway slots / airspace)

- Peak oil / fuel resources

- Environmental impacts

- Unrealistic pressure on prices (as evidenced on this thread)

 

... mean aviation is not sustainable in it's current form.

 

Now, I'm not saying technologies won't improve, and that alternative fuels/fuel efficiencies won't be found, but if the industry itself is reluctant to change or invest in its future, then it comes down to governments to do so. And as I said above, I don't necessarily think they're doing it the right way, but unless something major happens, airlines and aircraft manufacturers will continue to do what they need to do to make short-term profits, and leave the longer term problems to 'someone else'.

 

They're not alone in this obviously, but this thread is about the aviation industry.

[ericofarabia]

Depends how deep you're looking.

 

As it currently stands, the mixture of:

 

- Demand for growth (aircraft size / airport size / runway slots / airspace)

- Peak oil / fuel resources

- Environmental impacts

- Unrealistic pressure on prices (as evidenced on this thread)

 

... mean aviation is not sustainable in it's current form.

 

Now, I'm not saying technologies won't improve, and that alternative fuels/fuel efficiencies won't be found, but if the industry itself is reluctant to change or invest in its future, then it comes down to governments to do so. And as I said above, I don't necessarily think they're doing it the right way, but unless something major happens, airlines and aircraft manufacturers will continue to do what they need to do to make short-term profits, and leave the longer term problems to 'someone else'.

 

They're not alone in this obviously, but this thread is about the aviation industry.

 

Don't forget the wages paid to Jizz Mopping Mongs

[Minty]

Don't forget the wages paid to Jizz Mopping Mongs

Well of course. That jizz won't mop itself!

 

(How many years ago did Bateman come up with that now?! lol)

[JustMike]

we already pay ridiculous prices for it as it is, especially during school holidays!! And now this?? Trouble is, people will still continue to pay for things like this, it would need to take a lot of people to say "actually, **** it, i am not paying for (insert whatever it is that you feel is too much here) before anyone of importance actually takes note!

[dubai_phil]

then you will be whinging about the price of things - get ready for a six and half quid pint, 17 quid for a crappy pub lunch etc etc.

 

Oh how we DREAM of only paying six and a half quid for a pint

[hutch]

One passenger's share of the fuel for flying from London to San Francisco is around 350 gallons (1450 litres).

Only if they fly them empty.

 

An average 747 will burn around 100 tonnes on a 10-hour trip, with say 300 passengers on board. Do the sums.

 

And that's a 30 year old 4-engined long hauler. The modern twins are much more efficient.

 

Statistics, eh?

[buctootim]

Only if they fly them empty.

 

An average 747 will burn around 100 tonnes on a 10-hour trip, with say 300 passengers on board. Do the sums.

 

And that's a 30 year old 4-engined long hauler. The modern twins are much more efficient.

 

Statistics, eh?

 

I accidentally quoted stats based on european hops (less cruising, more takeoffs) -admittedly long haul is more efficient. However even if your burn rate is correct, based on an 11 hour flight to SF and 1.4 litres of kerosene per kilo that still gives a per passenger fuel use of 513 litres. If taxed at 59p per litre as for petrol /diesel this would add £302 to the price of each ticket. So it is true to say that if you abolished all existing aviation taxes and just put duty on fuel at the same rate as cars the price of a London-SF ticket would rise substantially - by about 30% in the case of economy. The whole premise of air travel being unfairly taxed and a rip off is nonsense. What is true is that some airlines are deceiving their passengers.

Edited 13 March, 2012 by buctootim

[dubai_phil]

I accidentally quoted stats based on european hops (less cruising, more takeoffs) -admittedly long haul is more efficient. However even if your burn rate is correct, based on an 11 hour flight to SF and 1.4 litres of kerosene per kilo that still gives a per passenger fuel use of 513 litres. If taxed at 59p per litre as for petrol /diesel this would add £302 to the price of each ticket. So it is true to say that if you abolished all existing aviation taxes and just put duty on fuel at the same rate as cars the price of a ticket London - SF would rise substantially - by about 30% in the case of an economy ticket. The whole premise of air travel being unfairly taxed and a rip off is nonsense.

 

Your argument is also seriously flawed.

 

Petrol & Other Fuel Taxes vary by Country, depsite their best efforts the EU has not harmonised tax structures in every EU Nation yet.

 

Unilaterally include a fuel tax on planes in the UK? Well there goes most of your Fruit & Veg from Supermarkets in the Winter. Most of your Flower Industry.

 

The Electronics Gadget market will be badly hit, everyone ghaving to wait an extra 6 to 8 weeks after a new model is launched.

 

Then of course the few planes left flying out of the UK would shedule aircraft to stop off in lower tax nations and over fill there, becoming less green (carrying more weight and of course reducing profits and jobs at UK Fuel Distribution and Airline Service companies.

 

Another economic mastermind idea by UK Inc

[buctootim]

Your argument is also seriously flawed.

 

Petrol & Other Fuel Taxes vary by Country, depsite their best efforts the EU has not harmonised tax structures in every EU Nation yet.

 

Unilaterally include a fuel tax on planes in the UK? Well there goes most of your Fruit & Veg from Supermarkets in the Winter. Most of your Flower Industry.

 

The Electronics Gadget market will be badly hit, everyone ghaving to wait an extra 6 to 8 weeks after a new model is launched.

 

Then of course the few planes left flying out of the UK would shedule aircraft to stop off in lower tax nations and over fill there, becoming less green (carrying more weight and of course reducing profits and jobs at UK Fuel Distribution and Airline Service companies.

 

Another economic mastermind idea by UK Inc

 

Where have I said the UK should unilaterally introduce a fuel tax Phil? Straw man argument, must do better. I was simply pointing out that aviation is not highly taxed. Im happy to see the 'departure tax' at around current levels. Heathrow will always be a major hub, simply because its the first major city you hit when you travel over the north atlantic. If it loses a little bit of traffic around the margins that isnt a big deal imo as the economic benefits of having millions of transfer passengers flying in, spending two hours in transit and flying out again are minimal - especially in an airport which is already struggling with capacity and night flight problems.

Edited 13 March, 2012 by buctootim

[CB Saint]

Due to come in next month

 

if like me, you use Airlines all the time, this will f-ing hurt

 

this country is such a rip-off

 

Completely agree, the taxes charged for first class are absolutely ridiculous. I have had to tell the wife that she can only bring two nannys when we go to Sandy Lane this year.

[Whitey Grandad]

Completely agree, the taxes charged for first class are absolutely ridiculous. I have had to tell the wife that she can only bring two nannys when we go to Sandy Lane this year.

 

First class is where the arllines make a lot of their profits. Reduce that and the economy cattle have to pay more.

[dune]

Due to come in next month

 

if like me, you use Airlines all the time, this will f-ing hurt

 

this country is such a rip-off

 

Sadly these are the prices you have to pay following a Labour governments mismanaging of the economy.

[Whitey Grandad]

Sadly these are the prices you have to pay following a Labour governments mismanaging of the economy.

 

That statement will be applied to any argument for the next 10 to 15 years.

[dubai_phil]

First class is where the arllines make a lot of their profits. Reduce that and the economy cattle have to pay more.

 

Tax the Rich!

So they don't fly so much or go Business/Virgin Upper Class and pay less to the airlines unless they are "uber-rich or Bankers"

 

So airlines have to put up their ticket prices at the back, and it's always the poor damned foot soldiers who get made redundant/have new working practices imposed on them

 

So the poor dumb workers pay anyway. As they'll be paying extra for their "fresh fruit & Veg" airfreighted in from warmer climes during the winter months.

 

Still going back to local grown will be so much more eco-friendly. Heating bills for Greenhouses, Diesel truck to market not withstanding of course

[dubai_phil]

Oh.

And another thing

 

Nobody see the irony that these Airline Taxes were introduced and voted for by people who have their Air Travel paid for by you lot?

 

When did an MEP last have to pay for an Airticket to go to work?

[Minty]

For those trying to calculate the cost of flying, I suggest you do some research on Cost per Available Seat Mile (CASM).

[Petersfield Saint]

Oh.

And another thing

 

Nobody see the irony that these Airline Taxes were introduced and voted for by people who have their Air Travel paid for by you lot?

 

When did an MEP last have to pay for an Airticket to go to work?

 

This!!!