Proud and Prejudice

[Turkish]

I think the jury is still out on Afghanistan, and we'll only really know whether we've achieved anything lasting after Western forces leave the country. It's widely accepted that Karzai doesn't have support across the multi-ethnic spectrum and that the Taliban will probably be in control of southern and eastern parts of Afghanistan once Western forces have vamoosed. We know for a fact that some of the very people we've trained as policemen have murdered British and American forces, and there were anti-US riots last week. You'll forgive me if I don't travel out to Kabul to witness this idyllic oasis of progress.

 

No-one is saying Islamic fundamentalists didn't exist before 2001. What I am saying is that there are now more people with a beef against the West, and that is a direct result of our foreign policy.

 

And there are many more people with a beef against Islamic fundaemtalists since 2001. Isn't that a direct result of 9/11 and cause by extremist that were already there?

Edited 1 March, 2012 by Turkish

[pap]

And there are many more people with a beef against Islamic fundaemtalists since 2001.

 

Absolutely. The EDL is a prime example, according to them.

 

The problems in the Middle East did not start with 9/11, and I haven't said this at any point. What are you trying to argue here exactly?

 

The problem here is that the situation in the Middle East has been screwed since the creation of Israel, and instead of addressing that one basic problem, our governments have piled mistake upon mistake. We have finally found ourselves here, in a time where all Muslims are under suspicion of being bomb-chucking extremists, and far-right groups get to legitimise their existence by pinning their mast to an issue they know will resonate with a scared public

 

What part of that didn't you get?

[alpine_saint]

Verbal and pap have obviously forgotten the type of people we have been fighting against in Afghanistan, with a UN mandate. So let me remind them :

 

[pap]

Hardly an argument, Alps.

 

Care to comment on the million plus dead in Iraq?

[Turkish]

Absolutely. The EDL is a prime example, according to them.

 

The problems in the Middle East did not start with 9/11, and I haven't said this at any point. What are you trying to argue here exactly?

 

 

 

What part of that didn't you get?

 

So actually based on what you've just said the Muslim extremists are to blame for the EDl, yes?

[alpine_saint]

That's strange, I could have sworn 9/11 happened before the UK/US were in Iraq. In fact, wasnt that the catalyst for the "war on terror"?

 

Nah- fundamentalism was well on the rise before Iraq, Afghanistan etc- the roots are far more complex than the lefty strawman story of a big bad blundering US trampling all over a poor, helpless Middle East.

 

 

 

Oh dear. P*ssing in pap's and Verbal's pool again. Very norty...

[pap]

No, because I don't believe for a second that the EDL actually care about extremism. The existence of Islamic extremism has given them some measure of legitimacy that they otherwise would not have had.

 

See below. I've quoted it again, but in bold.

 

We have finally found ourselves here, in a time where all Muslims are under suspicion of being bomb-chucking extremists, and far-right groups get to legitimise their existence by pinning their mast to an issue they know will resonate with a scared public

[Verbal]

Verbal and pap have obviously forgotten the type of people we have been fighting against in Afghanistan, with a UN mandate. So let me remind them :

 

 

An acquaintance of mine won an Oscar on Sunday night. It was for one of the minor categories admittedly - documentary short. The film was called 'Saving Face', and was about a plastic surgeon who repaired the damage to women's faces after acid attacks in Pakistan. Judging by your (admittedly bizarre) logic, I would have been dissuading her from making it.

 

The problem with you is you have a disordered mind and a tourrets-like posting style, so arguing with you is impossible. I'll leave it at that.

[alpine_saint]

Hardly an argument, Alps.

 

Care to comment on the million plus dead in Iraq?

 

Care to comment on the destruction by the Taliban of the Buddhist holy site of Bamiyan, and explain how that was due to big bag Uncle Sam provoking them ?

[Thedelldays]

 

The problem with you is you have a disordered mind and a tourrets-like posting style, so arguing with you is impossible. I'll leave it at that.

remember what you said last night about posting personal abuse...

[alpine_saint]

remember what you said last night about posting personal abuse...

 

Didnt you know that the Left are permitted to be abusive to others because they are so obviously right about everything, which must mean dissenters are stupid or malicious and deserve abuse ?

 

Verbal's post (which you unfortunately quoted) is just an another example of the mentality that give the UAF the self-righteous belief to cause violence at EDF rallyes. That they are enlightened, and its difficult to be respectful to morons.

[pap]

Care to comment on the destruction by the Taliban of the Buddhist holy site of Bamiyan, and explain how that was due to big bag Uncle Sam provoking them ?

 

Cultural vandalism driven by theocratic nutters. You can make the link to the US if you want, but I don't see one.

 

Since we're on the subject of cultural vandalism, what do you think about the destruction of the remains of Babylon?

[Thedelldays]

Cultural vandalism driven by theocratic nutters. You can make the link to the US if you want, but I don't see one.

 

Since we're on the subject of cultural vandalism, what do you think about the destruction of the remains of Babylon?

you really really want to blame the worlds wrongs on the US/UK don't you....

[Turkish]

No, because I don't believe for a second that the EDL actually care about extremism. The existence of Islamic extremism has given them some measure of legitimacy that they otherwise would not have had.

 

See below. I've quoted it again, but in bold.

 

Prehaps they do prehaps they dont. But the fact that they exist, grow and claim to have 100,000 followers, a not insubstancial number in the Uk and as you say, have some level of legitimacy when otherwise they would not have had, is down to extremism, yes?

[alpine_saint]

Cultural vandalism driven by theocratic nutters. You can make the link to the US if you want, but I don't see one.

 

 

Oooh, you dont see one ? And there was me thinking the likes of you and Verbal see a George W Bush look-alike Western Capitalist behind EVERYTHING on the planet that happens...

 

And it wasnt "cultural vandalism". It was sectarian intolerance.

[Thedelldays]

Prehaps they do prehaps they dont. But the fact that they exist, grow and claim to have 100,000 followers, a not insubstancial number in the Uk and as you say, have some level of legitimacy when otherwise they would not have had, is down to extremism, yes?

you only have to look all round europe...sadly, the far right is growing in numbers...russia is the another place where their popularity is swelling..mainly (you guessed it) on the issue of immigration to their country

[pap]

you really really want to blame the worlds wrongs on the US/UK don't you....

 

No, TDD - I want countries to be held accountable for their actions. Can you point to any nation responsible for more death in the last decade than the US?

[Verbal]

you really really want to blame the worlds wrongs on the US/UK don't you....

 

Okay detective, who WAS responsible?

[Turkish]

you only have to look all round europe...sadly, the far right is growing in numbers...russia is the another place where their popularity is swelling..mainly (you guessed it) on the issue of immigration to their country

 

But cant the Russians and the rest of Europe see that it's all their fault of their own people, like Pap says?

[alpine_saint]

you really really want to blame the worlds wrongs on the US/UK don't you....

 

Yep.. And in their possessed twisted petty minds, everything else, including the rights of a people to self-determination, are totally subservient to them getting their pound of flesh.

[Thedelldays]

No, TDD - I want countries to be held accountable for their actions. Can you point to any nation responsible for more death in the last decade than the US?

blame...well, (you won't like this) that also includes nations of the darker toned skin

[alpine_saint]

No, TDD - I want countries to be held accountable for their actions. Can you point to any nation responsible for more death in the last decade than the US?

 

Serbia ?

Zimbabwe ?

China ?

North Korea ?

Rwanda ?

[pap]

blame...well, (you won't like this) that also includes nations of the darker toned skin

 

One example of a nation that has caused more death. That's all I ask.

[pap]

Serbia ?

Zimbabwe ?

China ?

North Korea ?

Rwanda ?

 

Not even close.

[Turkish]

remember what you said last night about posting personal abuse...

 

Ironic that he could accuse others of having mental problems.

[alpine_saint]

One example of a nation that has caused more death. That's all I ask.

 

I've just given you FIVE.

[Thedelldays]

I would say Somalia....so much hate is bred there...which results in various things...but hey, you will dismiss that..right..?

[alpine_saint]

Not even close.

 

What is this, a football score ? Do we draw morals from the number of deaths involved ?

 

OK, let's estimate how many lives Western intevention has saved in :

 

Kossovo

Bosnia

Libya

Iraq

Afghanistan

 

and subtract them from your football scores.

[pap]

I've just given you FIVE.

 

Which you didn't qualify. How many people died as a result of those nation's wars?

 

You have a score of just over a million to beat.

[Thedelldays]

Which you didn't qualify. How many people died as a result of those nation's wars?

 

You have a score of just over a million to beat.

right, ok...your rules eh..?

[Turkish]

I would say Somalia....so much hate is bred there...which results in various things...but hey, you will dismiss that..right..?

 

Another example of the US/Uk spreading misery. The Somalian pirates are their fault as well you know Jamie.

[Thedelldays]

Another example of the US/Uk spreading misery. The Somalian pirates are their fault as well you know Jamie.

somalia is probably the most dangerous place on earth.......but hey, what do I know

[pap]

What is this, a football score ? Do we draw morals from the number of deaths involved ?

 

OK, let's estimate how many lives Western intevention has saved in :

 

Kossovo

Bosnia

Libya

Iraq

Afghanistan

 

and subtract them from your football scores.

 

How do you even qualify that? Let's take Iraq as one of your examples.

 

In all the time Saddam was in power, it is estimated that he killed 40,000 people. I've been generous here, and given you the higher estimate ( some peg it as low as 5,000 ).

 

During the most recent campaign against Iraq, over a million people died as a result of that conflict.

[View From The Top]

Prehaps they do prehaps they dont. But the fact that they exist, grow and claim to have 100,000 followers, a not insubstancial number in the Uk and as you say, have some level of legitimacy when otherwise they would not have had, is down to extremism, yes?

 

They also claim they're not racists neo-fascists.

[pap]

Right, I've got plenty to do today, so can't spend my time arguing the toss with people who are evidently not reading my responses anyway.

 

I will say this though:-

 

Some of the responses on here remind me of people who've walked in at the end of a film. They know what has happened, but they don't know why it has happened.

 

I've qualified pretty much every argument I've made on here. Says everything when the only critical responses you get back are critical of the poster, not the post.

 

Have fun discussing junior geopolitics, Alps, Turkish and TDD. You'll get a star if you study well.

[View From The Top]

Are you lot trying to pretend that the UK and US don't have blood on their hands regarding the war in Iraq?

 

The US led Neo-Cons have made the world a more divided and dangerous place and whilst none of us blames "America" it would be naive to suggest that much of the blame can't be laid at the door of right wing Republican elements in America.

[Verbal]

Which you didn't qualify. How many people died as a result of those nation's wars?

 

You have a score of just over a million to beat.

 

It's a bonkers list, pap. For a start, Kosovo and Bosnia were countries on whose soil other countries (Serbia) committed mass murder. Libya and Afghanistan do not, as you say, even come close. However, Iraq is the exception. The US-backed war it fought with Iran probably did exceed the million mark by some distance.

[Turkish]

Are you lot trying to pretend that the UK and US don't have blood on their hands regarding the war in Iraq?

 

The US led Neo-Cons have made the world a more divided and dangerous place and whilst none of us blames "America" it would be naive to suggest that much of the blame can't be laid at the door of right wing Republican elements in America.

 

Not at all. Just pointing out that Islamic Extremists are not entirely blameless either as it appears some are trying to claim.

[alpine_saint]

Right, I've got plenty to do today, so can't spend my time arguing the toss with people who are evidently not reading my responses anyway.

 

I will say this though:-

 

Some of the responses on here remind me of people who've walked in at the end of a film. They know what has happened, but they don't know why it has happened.

 

I've qualified pretty much every argument I've made on here. Says everything when the only critical responses you get back are critical of the poster, not the post.

 

Have fun discussing junior geopolitics, Alps, Turkish and TDD. You'll get a star if you study well.

 

Thanks for the departing post. It summarises perfectly your sneery, dismissive, patronising attitude that puts our backs up so easily. I couldnt care less if the points I've made in response to your biogted obsessed drivel are cogent or not. You've been dictating the direction and content of this discussion and now you are going home with your ball. F**k off, then.

[View From The Top]

Not at all. Just pointing out that Islamic Extremists are not entirely blameless either as it appears some are trying to claim.

 

Not in Iraq they didn't.

 

They only arrived after the war finished and "we" didn't know what to do with the peace and they were eventually run out of town / killed by the Sunni majority

[pap]

Thanks for the departing post. It summarises perfectly your sneery, dismissive, patronising attitude that puts our backs up so easily. I couldnt care less if the points I've made in response to your biogted obsessed drivel are cogent or not. You've been dictating the direction and content of this discussion and now you are going home with your ball. F**k off, then.

 

Quoting myself a lot today:-

 

I've qualified pretty much every argument I've made on here. Says everything when the only critical responses you get back are critical of the poster, not the post.

[pap]

It's a bonkers list, pap. For a start, Kosovo and Bosnia were countries on whose soil other countries (Serbia) committed mass murder. Libya and Afghanistan do not, as you say, even come close. However, Iraq is the exception. The US-backed war it fought with Iran probably did exceed the million mark by some distance.

 

I did some reading on the Iran-Iraq War a while back. If memory serves, the Iranians lost around 500K people. In total, it is close to a mil though.

[alpine_saint]

Yep, over a million people in Iraq have been killed by gun-toting, gum-chewing brainless red-neck arseholes, stiff-upper-lipped toffee-nosed chinless wonders from Eton, reformed car thieves from Birkenhead, or bomb rodeo-ing Slim Pickins look-alikes, and there has been no, I repeat no causalties whatsoever relating to IEDs in market places, revenge killings for collaboration, etc., etc.

 

[alpine_saint]

Quoting myself a lot today:-

 

Well apart from your fellow member of the Tooting Popular Front, the only person who isnt bored with your bigotry is yourself.

[Sour Mash]

Thanks for the departing post. It summarises perfectly your sneery, dismissive, patronising attitude that puts our backs up so easily. I couldnt care less if the points I've made in response to your biogted obsessed drivel are cogent or not. You've been dictating the direction and content of this discussion and now you are going home with your ball. F**k off, then.

Good post. Sums up a lot of the sneering "intellectuals" on this forum.

[pap]

Well apart from your fellow member of the Tooting Popular Front, the only person who isnt bored with your bigotry is yourself.

 

Rich coming from the man on a thousand ignore lists.

[Verbal]

I did some reading on the Iran-Iraq War a while back. If memory serves, the Iranians lost around 500K people. In total, it is close to a mil though.

 

I'm surprised it's so few, but I'll take your word for it. I love the alpine rationale (!) for the rest of the list though. By his logic, Poland was responsible for the holocaust.

[alpine_saint]

Rich coming from the man on a thousand ignore lists.

 

You offering to make it 1001 ?

[pap]

You offering to make it 1001 ?

 

There is no-one on my ignore list, nor will there ever be.

[alpine_saint]

There is no-one on my ignore list, nor will there ever be.

 

For the first time I respect you. Personally I think there is nothing to fear from the written word, so until recently didnt bother with an ignore list either. But in Verbals case I can visualise a Billy-No-Mates with a superior air managing (just about) to slum it on this site with the proles, so I'd rather limit my exposure.