Proud and Prejudice

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I would say many of the extremist views, that we saw in telly are infanct, far right.!!!!

 

All I asked for were some examples because UAF axist to tackle Britain's far-right element.

[Turkish]

All I asked for were some examples because UAF axist to tackle Britain's far-right element.

 

Islamic extremist are often British born, living in Britain so therefore a British far right element, no?

Edited 29 February, 2012 by Turkish

[Turkish]

Nothing wrong with that. My real world experience is that quite a few minority groups tend not to be very sociable and make no attempt to integrate at all. My dealings with families from India for example have largely been negative with them quite unfriendly and in some cases rude an hostile when they have been the ones in the wrong. I don't actually blame these families completely because sometimes they are unaware of British ways of doing things.

 

Those who have read previous posts know what I do.

 

You've done it now fella, you've stirred the beast. Hello Verbals next target! Anything but gushing praise for non white people and you're for it.

 

In my experience every Indian person I've come across have been sound apart from one who is a total cock and I'm actually planning a few weeks of travelling there this time next year. Although ad we've been told real life experience mean nothing and it's all about what you read about in the paper and say on Internet mong boards them I Might revise that view, If this is the case all Indian people must be arrogant, condescending c*nts with a chip on their shoulder, yes?

Edited 29 February, 2012 by Turkish

[hypochondriac]

You've done it now fella, you've stirred the beast. Hello Verbals next target! Anything but gushing praise for non white people and you're for it.

 

In my experience every Indian person I've come across have been sound apart from one who is a total cock and I'm actually planning a few weeks of travelling there this time next year. Although ad we've been told real life experience mean nothing and it's all about what you read about in the paper and say on Internet mong boards them I Might revise that view, If this is the case all Indian people must be arrogant, condescending c*nts with a chip on their shoulder, yes?

 

Ha. I'm certainly not saying that everyone who is Indian is like that as verbal likes to think I do. He mistakenly believes I am prejudice in some way towards minority groups which is quite frankly laughable. Everyone is welcome in my business no matter who they are.

 

However, as I said certain minority groups have no interest in integration and that is where the problems start. Even the polish people I work with state the same thing. Verbal assumes it is something I do despite knowing nothing about me, how I live my life or any of the people involved. I have a great working relationship with people in general including many born in India. My only issue is with those who dont want to associate with other cultures or try to learn anything about Britain. This is particularly true about those who do not speak any English. In my opinion this should be a basic requirement for coming into the country.

[pap]

Failure to integrate is not something we Brits have a great track record on either. The world is littered with Little Britain communities, British Schools and the like.

 

Ask yourself this. If you moved to another culture would you adopt or observe all the local customs? I can't honestly say that I would. I've been English everywhere I've gone. You don't suddenly become something else because you are somewhere else.

 

Should our ex-pat communities in Spain shed their British roots and go native? Should dubai_phil?

 

In many senses, the most realistic thing we can hope for when it comes to integration is that immigrants observe our laws. That's pretty much the deal with our people overseas.

 

Integration requires the consent and participation of both sides to fully work.

[Verbal]

Ha. I'm certainly not saying that everyone who is Indian is like that as verbal likes to think I do. He mistakenly believes I am prejudice in some way towards minority groups which is quite frankly laughable. Everyone is welcome in my business no matter who they are.

 

However, as I said certain minority groups have no interest in integration and that is where the problems start. Even the polish people I work with state the same thing. Verbal assumes it is something I do despite knowing nothing about me, how I live my life or any of the people involved. I have a great working relationship with people in general including many born in India. My only issue is with those who dont want to associate with other cultures or try to learn anything about Britain. This is particularly true about those who do not speak any English. In my opinion this should be a basic requirement for coming into the country.

 

All I can go on are the words on the pages, hypo - some of the best unintentional comedy from you in ages.

[hypochondriac]

All I can go on are the words on the pages, hypo - some of the best unintentional comedy from you in ages.

 

What part is unintentionally comedic?

[hypochondriac]

Failure to integrate is not something we Brits have a great track record on either. The world is littered with Little Britain communities, British Schools and the like.

 

Ask yourself this. If you moved to another culture would you adopt or observe all the local customs? I can't honestly say that I would. I've been English everywhere I've gone. You don't suddenly become something else because you are somewhere else.

 

Should our ex-pat communities in Spain shed their British roots and go native? Should dubai_phil?

 

In many senses, the most realistic thing we can hope for when it comes to integration is that immigrants observe our laws. That's pretty much the deal with our people overseas.

 

Integration requires the consent and participation of both sides to fully work.

 

Oh I can quite imagine that British people are similar. However if I moved to another country, I would make a concerted effort to learn about the culture and the language if it was a non English speaking country. I appreciate that not every British person would though.

 

That is also not to say that every immigrant is like this as that is not the case at all. It's more to do with a mindset. Those who have come to live here and make an effort to see what being British is all about are much easier to get along with and I believe much happier themselves.

[dubai_phil]

Failure to integrate is not something we Brits have a great track record on either. The world is littered with Little Britain communities, British Schools and the like.

 

Ask yourself this. If you moved to another culture would you adopt or observe all the local customs? I can't honestly say that I would. I've been English everywhere I've gone. You don't suddenly become something else because you are somewhere else.

 

Should our ex-pat communities in Spain shed their British roots and go native? Should dubai_phil?

 

In many senses, the most realistic thing we can hope for when it comes to integration is that immigrants observe our laws. That's pretty much the deal with our people overseas.

 

Integration requires the consent and participation of both sides to fully work.

 

Don't you go and drag me into this thread!

 

Oh sod it, actually here you go.

 

Integration is NOT the main issue.

 

It is RESPECT.

 

Many idiots come down here and act like they are still in UK. Similarly many Immigrants in UK act like they are still at home.

 

The missing ingredient is RESPECT. I Respect the local culture. I respect the fact that they allow us to have Bars & Churches. I don't go around criticising their systems in Publlic or demanding they abolish the Zero Tolerance Drink Driving Laws.

 

In the same way those in UK should Respect where they are and the Culture. they should not demand Sharia Law, forced marriages etc.

 

The real problem in the UK? So many people failed to understand that you can be Multi-Cultural and keep your core culture.

 

They alienated so many that if you asked an outsider today what UK culture was they'd say - Drunks vomitting in your high streets, Katie Price, Celebrity/Reality Television and Deep Fried Mars Bars, and having crap national Football teams.

 

Difficult to show respect to that even as a Brit these days.

 

(ironic winkey smiley thingy)

[Sour Mash]

Failure to integrate is not something we Brits have a great track record on either. The world is littered with Little Britain communities, British Schools and the like.

 

Ask yourself this. If you moved to another culture would you adopt or observe all the local customs? I can't honestly say that I would. I've been English everywhere I've gone. You don't suddenly become something else because you are somewhere else.

 

Should our ex-pat communities in Spain shed their British roots and go native? Should dubai_phil?

 

In many senses, the most realistic thing we can hope for when it comes to integration is that immigrants observe our laws. That's pretty much the deal with our people overseas.

 

Integration requires the consent and participation of both sides to fully work.

I don't have a great deal of time for our ex-pat communities either and I don't doubt they should make a much bigger effort to integrate. However, it really isn't comparable, due to the scale of the problem in this country. We're not talking about small communities here, but vast swathes of our major cities that have been completely taken over by cultures completely alien to those of ordinary English people. The simple fact is that this county has allowed far too much immigration, in too short a time for it to ever work in practice.

[hypochondriac]

I don't have a great deal of time for our ex-pat communities either and I don't doubt they should make a much bigger effort to integrate. However, it really isn't comparable, due to the scale of the problem in this country. We're not talking about small communities here, but vast swathes of our major cities that have been completely taken over by cultures completely alien to those of ordinary English people. The simple fact is that this county has allowed far too much immigration, in too short a time for it to ever work in practice.

 

And this is the exact view of the polish immigrants I work with.

[pap]

I don't have a great deal of time for our ex-pat communities either and I don't doubt they should make a much bigger effort to integrate. However, it really isn't comparable, due to the scale of the problem in this country. We're not talking about small communities here, but vast swathes of our major cities that have been completely taken over by cultures completely alien to those of ordinary English people. The simple fact is that this county has allowed far too much immigration, in too short a time for it to ever work in practice.

 

I'd agree with you on the timing. The problem is that we've never had time to catch our collective breath and consolidate, and if we continue to subscribe to the EU's principles of letting anyone live anywhere, we never will.

[hypochondriac]

I'd agree with you on the timing. The problem is that we've never had time to catch our collective breath and consolidate, and if we continue to subscribe to the EU's principles of letting anyone live anywhere, we never will.

 

It's yet another reason to oppose the EU in its current form. Australia's immigration policy is miles more sensible.

[SuperMikey]

People who come from other cultures do not always change our culture for the better. That is plainly rubbish.

 

Would you care to give an example of how a particular cultural group has had a negative effect on our culture?

 

I'm not saying all cultural changes are good, but multiculturalism and diversity is something that every nation should strive for.

[hypochondriac]

Nothing wrong with multiculturalism (as long as those involved have the correct mindset on both sides to make it work.) to suggest that in all cases people coming here and changing our culture is a good thing is plainly nonsense.

[hypochondriac]

I also believe in respecting a culture if you move into it as well. That would apply to Britons moving abroad as much as anyone else.

[Thedelldays]

Would you care to give an example of how a particular cultural group has had a negative effect on our culture?

 

I'm not saying all cultural changes are good, but multiculturalism and diversity is something that every nation should strive for.

 

why...?

[Orange]

IMO the thing that most people miss in an argument over multi-culturalism is who benefits from it most. It generally isnt the immigrants or the indigenous population it is the business class. It undermines the solidarity of the community. It provides a mass of hard working people who are prepared to work for lower wages. I dont believe for a minute that immigrants come over here to damage this country they are just pawns in a bigger conspiracy.

The trouble is as well is that if you dare criticise immigration you are immediately shouted down as a racist or a nazi .There is no real debate nd thats the way the ruling class wants it.

 

This is what the lefties don't seem to get, it widens the gap between rich and poor to a huge extent.

 

Tommy R looked like a f*cking idiot with his whole 'slipping the old bill..', then he seemed shocked to get a phone call, what the f*ck was he expecting?

I can see why a lot of young lads get attracted to the EDL, but it attracts far too many morons. Elements of what they say i agree with. What i hate is their sense of self importance 'we will be written in history books..' yeah of course..for getting ****ed up and singing Mohamid is a pedo..

 

The UAF are f*cking scum, and its a disgrace that they are funded by the governement, and have support from lots of politicians. They hate any form of national pride, infact their leader said something along the lines that flying the British flag is disgusting, he's made many hate speeches about Britain, have watched them on youtube. They glorify communism, the idealogy reasponsable for so many million deaths. A nasty bunch when you look past the name. They are also violent, and have beaten up Nick Griffin. I'm not BNP, but is it right the government support and fund an organisation that goes round beating people up who they don't agree with? People would be rolling in their graves.

[solentstars]

Don't you go and drag me into this thread!

 

Oh sod it, actually here you go.

 

Integration is NOT the main issue.

 

It is RESPECT.

 

Many idiots come down here and act like they are still in UK. Similarly many Immigrants in UK act like they are still at home.

 

The missing ingredient is RESPECT. I Respect the local culture. I respect the fact that they allow us to have Bars & Churches. I don't go around criticising their systems in Publlic or demanding they abolish the Zero Tolerance Drink Driving Laws.

 

In the same way those in UK should Respect where they are and the Culture. they should not demand Sharia Law, forced marriages etc.

 

The real problem in the UK? So many people failed to understand that you can be Multi-Cultural and keep your core culture.

 

They alienated so many that if you asked an outsider today what UK culture was they'd say - Drunks vomitting in your high streets, Katie Price, Celebrity/Reality Television and Deep Fried Mars Bars, and having crap national Football teams.

 

Difficult to show respect to that even as a Brit these days.

 

(ironic winkey smiley thingy)

 

Good post and I expect most people are of the same mind .you are always going to have doom and gloom merchants and I expect it depends if you have a postive or negative outlook.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[Orange]

Would you care to give an example of how a particular cultural group has had a negative effect on our culture?

 

I'm not saying all cultural changes are good, but multiculturalism and diversity is something that every nation should strive for.

 

Why?

[SuperMikey]

Because it helps understanding in humans. Your average person growing up in a multicultural area will have more knowledge of other cultures if he has neighbours and friends from around the world compared to those who have no contact with other cultures when growing up. I grew up in a village in North Hampshire, and the population there is pretty much 99.98% white. Only in the last 5 years or so have there been more people living in the area from more diverse ethnic backgrounds, and I think that's a great thing. In my year at school, there were 2 pupils from non-white backgrounds out of around 250 pupils in the year. That's why I love living in Southampton - the diversity of the people that you meet and see is great.

 

Also, widening the gene pool is never a bad thing.

[SuperMikey]

Nothing wrong with multiculturalism (as long as those involved have the correct mindset on both sides to make it work.) to suggest that in all cases people coming here and changing our culture is a good thing is plainly nonsense.

 

Well, do you have a particular example you want to point out as to how our culture has been negatively affected, or are you just going to repeat the statement you made earlier?

 

The only negative thing about culture being changed by people moving to this country is the people who can't change along with everything else. That's why you get groups like the EDL, BNP etc because they are scared of change.

[Thedelldays]

Well, do you have a particular example you want to point out as to how our culture has been negatively affected, or are you just going to repeat the statement you made earlier?

 

The only negative thing about culture being changed by people moving to this country is the people who can't change along with everything else. That's why you get groups like the EDL, BNP etc because they are scared of change.

not the UAF...? are they not scared of change of their own...?

[hypochondriac]

Well, do you have a particular example you want to point out as to how our culture has been negatively affected, or are you just going to repeat the statement you made earlier?

 

The only negative thing about culture being changed by people moving to this country is the people who can't change along with everything else. That's why you get groups like the EDL, BNP etc because they are scared of change.

 

That is so utterly ill informed. Extremist elements of certain cultures are extremely negative. Cultures that deny women certain rights for example. Calls for the implementation of sharia law, muslim factions that despise the west and routinely spout hate speeches. Look at the spate of honour killings for example to conclude that you don't want that element from that culture here for anyone. To suggest that there is no examples of cultures impacting negatively on this country is just untrue.

 

As to your second paragraph, I don't know where to begin...

[Sour Mash]

Well, do you have a particular example you want to point out as to how our culture has been negatively affected, or are you just going to repeat the statement you made earlier?

 

The only negative thing about culture being changed by people moving to this country is the people who can't change along with everything else. That's why you get groups like the EDL, BNP etc because they are scared of change.

Having areas completely swamped by cultures completely different to one's own would be considered a negative by most people. Why should people already living in this country have to change to fit in with those recently migrated into their country? Is that what you're suggesting? Ridiculous if it is.

[pap]

Hypo - have you ever thought how you might feel if you moved to another country, and then said country was involved in wars against the UK?

 

Do you think under such circumstances, you might feel annoyed at the actions of your adopted country?

[pap]

Having areas completely swamped by cultures completely different to one's own would be considered a negative by most people. Why should people already living in this country have to change to fit in with those recently migrated into their country? Is that what you're suggesting? Ridiculous if it is.

 

How else do you see it working?

[Thedelldays]

Hypo - have you ever thought how you might feel if you moved to another country, and then said country was involved in wars against the UK?

 

Do you think under such circumstances, you might feel annoyed at the actions of your adopted country?

he would be free to leave.....if he did not like said country

 

I really really fail to see the likes of old hooky and other 'hate' preachers...they hate the UK and what it does in the wide world so much, they collect benefits etc...

even old hooky tried to sneak on an RN ship when we were evacuating nationals from the Lebanon...

 

why. if he 'hates' the UK so much, why try so hard to come back and live here.

 

if I move to australia (which I am thinking about) and I "hate" the country. yep, back to the UK i come

[hypochondriac]

Hypo - have you ever thought how you might feel if you moved to another country, and then said country was involved in wars against the UK?

 

Do you think under such circumstances, you might feel annoyed at the actions of your adopted country?

 

Quite a large percentage of those I am talking about do not fall into that category, though I accept that some do. Even so, my girlfriend's father is Iraqi and feels no animosity towards this country, although the majority of his family were killed by Saddam.

[hypochondriac]

How else do you see it working?

 

I think that people coming to live in a new culture should adapt to integrate into that culture as best as they can (and often I believe they are more comfortable in that culture if they do that.) Obviously over time the original people who lived there will change as well as the feel the influence of those who have migrated and that can be a positive thing as well.

[pap]

I think that people coming to live in a new culture should adapt to integrate into that culture as best as they can (and often I believe they are more comfortable in that culture if they do that.) Obviously over time the original people who lived there will change as well as the feel the influence of those who have migrated and that can be a positive thing as well.

 

That's a bit of a wooly answer.

 

Can I trouble you for specifics? In your judgement, what constitutes a well-integrated immigrant?

[hypochondriac]

That's a bit of a wooly answer.

 

Can I trouble you for specifics? In your judgement, what constitutes a well-integrated immigrant?

 

It will differ depending on the individual and the situation, but learning or attempting to learn the language should be a basic requirement. Respecting the laws and customs of the place you are in. I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia for example and then do something likely to cause offense. Being polite and courteous to others where possible is also pleasant. I know that is difficult for most natives of this island as well, but if I went to live in another country, especially if I had come from reduced circumstances, then I would feel grateful towards that country for giving me the opportunity and would generally try and be pleasant (though that may be just myself rather than a rule for all immigrants to follow.)

 

Having the mindset of wanting to work and contribute to the society should be another basic requirement. I have a lot of respect for some Polish workers for example who come here with the intention of contributing and making the most of the opportunty they have been given. Sadly that is not the case for all immigrants.

 

Other ways of integration in my mind are optional things such as attending town meetings or public events such as summer fetes, fairs or charity events and learning and having a good knowledge of Britain, its values and even little pop culture things such as our history for making good comedies or famous figures in British history.

 

Adopting just some of those things if someone moves to a new country I believe makes you more integrated into the community and you are likely to be accepted far more. Like I said, my girlfriend has Iraqi roots and it was hard for her father who came here university on his own knowing nobody. He adapted really well, embraces British culture but keeps his own as well so it can be done.

[SuperMikey]

That is so utterly ill informed. Extremist elements of certain cultures are extremely negative. Cultures that deny women certain rights for example. Calls for the implementation of sharia law, muslim factions that despise the west and routinely spout hate speeches. Look at the spate of honour killings for example to conclude that you don't want that element from that culture here for anyone. To suggest that there is no examples of cultures impacting negatively on this country is just untrue.

 

As to your second paragraph, I don't know where to begin...

 

I think the clue is in the word 'extremist'. There are extremist elements of any culture, but they're not usually indicative of a culture on the whole. The presence of extremist Islam in this country is very minimal, but it's the focus and attention that it receives in the media which propagates the fear and worry that many feel about other cultures and people. You see headlines plastered all over the press about radical Islam, but when was the last time you saw a headline saying "Millions of Muslims practice their religion peacefully without harming anyone" ? As I said, it's the people who are afraid to change with the times and accept any alterations to what we perceive to be British culture that are a bigger threat than those actually of other cultures. There are white British people abusing kids, hitting their wives and raping and murdering people, but if anyone from another culture does the same it's obviously representative of their culture as a whole and a sign that we shouldn't have anyone from a different culture living here...

 

not the UAF...? are they not scared of change of their own...?

 

I didn't say anything about the UAF. My understanding of their group is that they protest against reactionary groups like the EDL who propagate the needless panic felt by people about cultural change. To be honest, I don't know that much more about them.

 

Having areas completely swamped by cultures completely different to one's own would be considered a negative by most people. Why should people already living in this country have to change to fit in with those recently migrated into their country? Is that what you're suggesting? Ridiculous if it is.

 

Altruism isn't a bad thing. I'm not saying people living in areas with high levels of migration have to change - it's not like i'm suggesting white Christian people living in Bradford should convert to Islam or anything. Our culture is expanding, but culture isn't a finite thing, it won't run out or burst if more elements are introduced to it. People should acknowledge that cultural expansion and make their peace with it imo. It's the people that bluntly refuse to accept others who cause tension in our society, not the people who are of those other cultures. Of course, i'm not saying the blame for cultural and racial tension lies entirely with one side - there are people who have narrow ideas about what is proper who spread trouble and unrest, but these people make up a miniscule proportion of those who are of other cultures.

[dune]

I know this is not the focus of this debate, but am surprised and disappointed by this attitude. I can not speak on behalf of other countries, only my own, but the British colonial legacy in Australia, in summary, is not something to be proud of and something that has not received the international attention it deserves. Under the Genocide Convention definition, the Colony committed genocide against the oldest living culture in the world, on the bases of inferiority, something that exists in our system still. If you listen and read old documents and tape recordings, there was a definite, premeditated and deliberate attempt to wipe out the Aboriginals here, including the deliberate release of diseases and discussions on rounding up Aboriginal people so that they would die out 'naturally'. Many Australians even are unaware of the extreme attempts and loss of life that shattered a mostly unprovoked, diverse Nations that I'm confident was not adequately covered in this documentary, otherwise you would not be so proud.

 

Since British colonial rule we have lost hundreds of languages, cultures and stories, compounded by the relative isolation and differences in Aboriginal Communities. They were wiped out in Tasmania, and the impacts are still here to see, with the average life expectancy of Indigenous peoples around 30 years less than us 'british' Australians. I will not go ranting any further, as this is not the direction of this thread but if this is something to be proud of, the wiping out of hundreds of different cultures and lifestyles, than I do not see how you are any better then any other extremist.

 

Nowadays such population adjustments would be frowned upon, but back then this was normal. You can go back throughout history and conquerers almost always comitted the odd atrocity to assert their domination. I look on such events in the context of the period in which they happened and i'm not sorry or apologetic as an Englishman for any of our colonial actions. In fact i'm very proud that we were the superior colonial power. The Roman Empire comitted atrocities, but that does not detract from the fact they were an awesome fighting and political force. Going back to the issue of Australia, as unpalateable as the reality might be to some, the fact is that our actions against the natives created the country we see today - a western christian civilised democracy - and if we had not embarked on a programme of population adjustment then it's reasonable to suggest that the country might have become Muslim as in Indonesia and certainly the Chinese communists would have armed the natives as they did in Rhodesia. In all probability Australia today would be a backward dictatorship, with a puppet leader whose strings were pulled in Peking.

[SuperMikey]

Nowadays such population adjustments would be frowned upon, but back then this was normal. You can go back throughout history and conquerers almost always comitted the odd atrocity to assert their domination. I look on such events in the context of the period in which they happened and i'm not sorry or apologetic as an Englishman for any of our colonial actions. In fact i'm very proud that we were the superior colonial power. The Roman Empire comitted atrocities, but that does not detract from the fact they were an awesome fighting and political force. Going back to the issue of Australia, as unpalateable as the reality might be to some, the fact is that our actions against the natives created the country we see today - a western christian civilised democracy - and if we had not embarked on a programme of population adjustment then it's reasonable to suggest that the country might have become Muslim as in Indonesia and certainly the Chinese communists would have armed the natives as they did in Rhodesia. In all probability Australia today would be a backward dictatorship, with a puppet leader whose strings were pulled in Peking.

 

 

Yeah, because Fiji, Tonga, Samoa and all the other countries around that region with native people still prominent in their population are all third-world fascist hellholes aren't they?

[dune]

 

Yeah, because Fiji, Tonga, Samoa and all the other countries around that region with native people still prominent in their population are all third-world fascist hellholes aren't they?

 

they are not as advanced as Australia and New Zealand though are they Super Dopper Mikey? The fact is Mikey that Australia is rich in natural resources and China would most certainly have armed the Aboriginals if there had been enough of them to have mounted a terrorist campaign. You are very naive young un.

[dune]

This is what the lefties don't seem to get, it widens the gap between rich and poor to a huge extent.

 

Tommy R looked like a f*cking idiot with his whole 'slipping the old bill..', then he seemed shocked to get a phone call, what the f*ck was he expecting?

I can see why a lot of young lads get attracted to the EDL, but it attracts far too many morons. Elements of what they say i agree with. What i hate is their sense of self importance 'we will be written in history books..' yeah of course..for getting ****ed up and singing Mohamid is a pedo..

 

The UAF are f*cking scum, and its a disgrace that they are funded by the governement, and have support from lots of politicians. They hate any form of national pride, infact their leader said something along the lines that flying the British flag is disgusting, he's made many hate speeches about Britain, have watched them on youtube. They glorify communism, the idealogy reasponsable for so many million deaths. A nasty bunch when you look past the name. They are also violent, and have beaten up Nick Griffin. I'm not BNP, but is it right the government support and fund an organisation that goes round beating people up who they don't agree with? People would be rolling in their graves.

 

Very well said. UAF march alongside Al Muhajiroun aka MAC aka . They are inherently anti British. Typical communists that seek a hardline nanny state that is only tolerant of hardline left wing nanny state views. It does not surprise me that Thorpe-le-saint and his ilk support them.

[SuperMikey]

they are not as advanced as Australia and New Zealand though are they Super Dopper Mikey? The fact is Mikey that Australia is rich in natural resources and China would most certainly have armed the Aboriginals if there had been enough of them to have mounted a terrorist campaign. You are very naive young un.

 

They're not as advanced because they don't have populations the size of Oz and NZ, and there isn't the level of industry in those countries that there are in others in the region.

 

I respect your mystic powers to predict a guerilla uprising of the native people of Australia though. I'm sure if they hadn't been massacred they wouldn't have negotiated with the British on land rights under any circumstances. Definitely not. I'm sure they would've preferred that their families were brutally slaughtered. Who wouldn't?

[dubai_phil]

I think that people coming to live in a new culture should adapt to integrate into that culture as best as they can (and often I believe they are more comfortable in that culture if they do that.) Obviously over time the original people who lived there will change as well as the feel the influence of those who have migrated and that can be a positive thing as well.

 

That's a bit of a wooly answer.

 

Can I trouble you for specifics? In your judgement, what constitutes a well-integrated immigrant?

 

This is actually an important point, Hypo's wooly ness actually nails it.

 

Down here the "Locals" are not all true born "Emiratis" hell back in 1967 there were not that many bumbling round the fishing & Pearl harbours. The first level of Emiratisation came with an influx of other Arab "Tribes" especially from Yemen. Yet we don't see "Locals" walking around with the Khandar (Yemeni Dagger) around their waist.

 

The Local culture has developed it's own depth and meaning and now there are very specific organisations that work very hard to MAINTAIN that culture. (Just compare that to the (in some places) problems caused by Flying an English Flag or even Prayers before a Council Meeting)

 

BUT, on TOP of that, the country has opened it's mind to other cultures. Foreign Influences impact upon and have helped build a culture. Be it the Arab Bag Pipe Band, local kids belting Gangsta Rap out of their souped up motors, Gary Rhodes Restaurant serving Arabic British Fusion Cuisine, all Nationalities eating at the Legendary Ravi's, ex-pats automatically adopting the Arabic way of hospitaility to a Visitor or traveller.

Horse Racing combines the Arabic Traditions with the grandeur of Royal Ascot, many locals now play golf and work with me doing "The Tiger Thing" or take their kids along to see Rory or Federer. We now have Emiratis playing in ouor Rugby 7's squad.

There will be as many locals at the upcoming Madonna gigs as there will be ex-pats, and many of us will be going to see the likes of Amr Diab in concert. So yes over time the core culture has taken on board influences, BUT us ex-pats are as supportive of the efforts to retain the identity and core Culture as the locals.

 

BUT, and this is the rub and where UK went so wrong.

 

Down here you adapt or you leave because you are not welcome. Immigrant. don't like the place or the culture, you don't complain, you leave or you are made to leave. THAT is the difference

[Rasiak-9-]

The EDL officially have a perfectly reasonable position. The problem is that they inevitably attract racists and thugs which just infest the group and reduce it to what may as well be the BNP.

 

However, I do have a degree of sympathy with their cause, if you liberals really do care about freedom and equality as much as you say you do, don't you think that a bunch of thugs threatening to execute homosexuals and Hindus should be protested against?

[View From The Top]

The EDL officially have a perfectly reasonable position. The problem is that they inevitably attract racists and thugs which just infest the group and reduce it to what may as well be the BNP.

 

However, I do have a degree of sympathy with their cause, if you liberals really do care about freedom and equality as much as you say you do, don't you think that a bunch of thugs threatening to execute homosexuals and Hindus should be protested against?

 

What a dumb question. Of course they should be objected to, hampered at every opportunity, harried, hassled and protested against and I've yet to meet any left winger who thinks otherwise.

 

Question is, do you want a group of half witted racist neo-Nazis doing it?

[Turkish]

What a dumb question. Of course they should be objected to, hampered at every opportunity, harried, hassled and protested against and I've yet to meet any left winger who thinks otherwise.

 

Question is, do you want a group of half witted racist neo-Nazis doing it?

 

And that's the problem, no one else is.

[Sour Mash]

What a dumb question. Of course they should be objected to, hampered at every opportunity, harried, hassled and protested against and I've yet to meet any left winger who thinks otherwise.

 

Question is, do you want a group of half witted racist neo-Nazis doing it?

Why do no "left-wingers" do it then?

[pap]

and that's the problem, no one else is.

 

mi5? Mi6?

[hypochondriac]

What a dumb question. Of course they should be objected to, hampered at every opportunity, harried, hassled and protested against and I've yet to meet any left winger who thinks otherwise.

 

Question is, do you want a group of half witted racist neo-Nazis doing it?

 

I think what people like is the double standards of the UAF. They are quite happy to dish it out to the likes of the EDF (who are idiots BTW and their valid points are completely overshadowed by their racist bits) but turn a blind eye and some actively support the extremists that the EDF protest against. It doesn't seem fair.

[View From The Top]

Why do no "left-wingers" do it then?

 

There are plenty of other ways other than manning the barricades. I spend Thursday afternoons at a mosque, probably the only non-Muslim on here that has even set foot in one, and I see how it's fought, from the inside.

 

I've seen, with my own eyes MAC, literally, run out of town, not by a bunch of half witted EDL members, but by ordinary mainstream Muslim men who don't want the loons anywhere near their kids or their mosques.

 

If you want fu ckwits like the EDL representing you then fill your boots but they don't represent the vast majority of left/right than MAC do of British Muslims.

Edited 29 February, 2012 by View From The Top
Can't ****ing spell!

[pap]

We are never going to solve Islamic extremism while we are are killing Muslims. The Iraq War will be regarded as a dark stain on the US and UK for generations. Any upcoming conflict in Iran is going to inflame sentiment further. I suspect the long term solution for achieving peace in that region is going to involve a settlement of the Palestinian question, contrition, reconciliation and many long years of wary dealings between former foes.

 

The EDL cannot achieve its stated objective.

 

I suspect that what they want to do is shut people up who are protesting against the actions of Western governments. I know it is uncomfortable to have to deal with Islamic extremists saying they want to destroy the West, but let's at least have a bit of perspective. Total up the bodycount wrought by "The Forces of Good" versus "The Evil Muslims" and the Islamic lot score so low they could be a rounding error.

 

The problem here is that the situation in the Middle East has been screwed since the creation of Israel, and instead of addressing that one basic problem, our governments have piled mistake upon mistake. We have finally found ourselves here, in a time where all Muslims are under suspicion of being bomb-chucking extremists, and far-right groups get to legitimise their existence by pinning their mast to an issue they know will resonate with a scared public.

 

This really isn't a new trick. Lots of very dangerous movements have started out in the same way, citing some nebulous nemesis that only they can conquer. I'm personally not comfortable with such organisations, whoever they claim to be against.

[Bearsy]

I know this is not the focus of this debate, but am surprised and disappointed by this attitude. I can not speak on behalf of other countries, only my own, but the British colonial legacy in Australia, in summary, is not something to be proud of and something that has not received the international attention it deserves. Under the Genocide Convention definition, the Colony committed genocide against the oldest living culture in the world, on the bases of inferiority, something that exists in our system still. If you listen and read old documents and tape recordings, there was a definite, premeditated and deliberate attempt to wipe out the Aboriginals here, including the deliberate release of diseases and discussions on rounding up Aboriginal people so that they would die out 'naturally'. Many Australians even are unaware of the extreme attempts and loss of life that shattered a mostly unprovoked, diverse Nations that I'm confident was not adequately covered in this documentary, otherwise you would not be so proud.

 

Since British colonial rule we have lost hundreds of languages, cultures and stories, compounded by the relative isolation and differences in Aboriginal Communities. They were wiped out in Tasmania, and the impacts are still here to see, with the average life expectancy of Indigenous peoples around 30 years less than us 'british' Australians. I will not go ranting any further, as this is not the direction of this thread but if this is something to be proud of, the wiping out of hundreds of different cultures and lifestyles, than I do not see how you are any better then any other extremist.

 

Them Australians are well bad for what they done to them aboriginals! I never knew about all that, I'll remember that the next time I'm watching Neighbours. I'm just glad we live in a civilised country.

[Thedelldays]

Them Australians are well bad for what they done to them aboriginals! I never knew about all that, I'll remember that the next time I'm watching Neighbours. I'm just glad we live in a civilised country.

didn't take long for deppo to be back

[Thedelldays]

We are never going to solve Islamic extremism while we are are killing Muslims. The Iraq War will be regarded as a dark stain on the US and UK for generations. Any upcoming conflict in Iran is going to inflame sentiment further. I suspect the long term solution for achieving peace in that region is going to involve a settlement of the Palestinian question, contrition, reconciliation and many long years of wary dealings between former foes.

 

The EDL cannot achieve its stated objective.

 

I suspect that what they want to do is shut people up who are protesting against the actions of Western governments. I know it is uncomfortable to have to deal with Islamic extremists saying they want to destroy the West, but let's at least have a bit of perspective. Total up the bodycount wrought by "The Forces of Good" versus "The Evil Muslims" and the Islamic lot score so low they could be a rounding error.

 

The problem here is that the situation in the Middle East has been screwed since the creation of Israel, and instead of addressing that one basic problem, our governments have piled mistake upon mistake. We have finally found ourselves here, in a time where all Muslims are under suspicion of being bomb-chucking extremists, and far-right groups get to legitimise their existence by pinning their mast to an issue they know will resonate with a scared public.

 

This really isn't a new trick. Lots of very dangerous movements have started out in the same way, citing some nebulous nemesis that only they can conquer. I'm personally not comfortable with such organisations, whoever they claim to be against.

 

it is that easy eh...you should work for the UN...they must have missed these points