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Lee "Chung"


farawaysaint

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Just how good is he? I had comments from a couple of Watford mates at the game that he seemed a class above (particularily his off the ball movement and his work rate.) They said he'll be in the premier league very soon wither with us or not. Soert of begs the question why no-one has taken a gamble before but he seems to be a great free signing. Thoughts anyone?

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not taken the chances he has worked so hard to create. More clinical and he'd have 5 goals. Immense work rate, sharp if not lightening quick, puts himself about and has a decent touch. Plays on the shoulder so presents a different challenge to defenders to Ricky. We look more dangerous with him in the side. Not sure I would say he is a class above. Liking him a lot.

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Tbh I was not wildly impressed yesterday - he made lots of runs and he was energetic and enthusiastic so fair play there but he didn't actually achieve anything other than win a dubious penalty. He lacks composure and consequently missed a sitter too, but I suppose any striker can do that; just look at Sharp's miss at WHU. For me we will get more out of him as an impact player and when Sharp is fully up to speedand Do Prado recovers from malaria (or whatever his illness is) those two will be better starting options...at least for now. Lee will take a while to settle, it must be a helluva job acclimatising from Tokyo to Watford.

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The more Saints fans that are unimpressed by him initially the better IMO.

 

Gives more pleasure later when he proves people wrong.

 

:-)

 

If a player shows better form after 6 months in a new team and environment than they did on arrival it does not prove those who were initially unimpressed with him "wrong".

 

It simply means that initially they were unimpressive.

 

HTH

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Tbh I was not wildly impressed yesterday - he made lots of runs and he was energetic and enthusiastic so fair play there but he didn't actually achieve anything other than win a dubious penalty. He lacks composure and consequently missed a sitter too, but I suppose any striker can do that; just look at Sharp's miss at WHU. For me we will get more out of him as an impact player and when Sharp is fully up to speedand Do Prado recovers from malaria (or whatever his illness is) those two will be better starting options...at least for now. Lee will take a while to settle, it must be a helluva job acclimatising from Tokyo to Watford.

 

Only acknowledging direct contribution there, an unfair judge of performance in my view. I thought his constant running, "niggling" at defenders and off-the-shoulder play created much more time and space for Lambert, Lallana et al to strut their stuff - defenders must hate playing against such energy. I do see where you're coming from re his composure in front of goal, but that's something I'm sure Adkins'll work on :)

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If a player shows better form after 6 months in a new team and environment than they did on arrival it does not prove those who were initially unimpressed with him "wrong".

 

It simply means that initially they were unimpressive.

 

HTH

 

Not really.

 

If fans conclude a dismissive opinion on a player after a handful of games, then their OWN knee jerk shortcomings should be highlighted in hindsight after a reasonable amount of time.

 

Case in point Jos Hooiveld.

 

HTH...

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IMO we expect to be in the Premier League, either this season or next. Signing a guy with Premier League potential from Japan, and giving him 6 months to acclimatise is such good sense.

 

In fact, I'm seeing PL quality right through the team. Or perhaps I'm just over-excited.

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I thought he was fantastic yesterday. Sat on the half way line, I thought his movement and overall contribution to the game was very impressive. He did get some rough treatment, which he is going have to get more used to. Has a tendency to stay down after being fouled. Got to harden up a bit.

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Not really.

 

If fans conclude a dismissive opinion on a player after a handful of games, then their OWN knee jerk shortcomings should be highlighted in hindsight after a reasonable amount of time.

 

Case in point Jos Hooiveld.

 

 

HTH...

 

Not really.

 

Being unimpressed is not a "knee-jerk shortcoming"; it is merely being unimpressed.

 

There have been plenty of Saints players that have not impressed me on first sight who have later shown themselves to be excellent players. I am extremely happy to, in your view, be 'proved wrong'. It does not mean, however, that on the evidence of a couple of games I have dismissed them as having no ability or potential. It simply means I have been unimpressed by their performance - probably because it was unimpressive and not because of my faulty judgement.

 

HTH.

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I thought he was fantastic yesterday. Sat on the half way line, I thought his movement and overall contribution to the game was very impressive. He did get some rough treatment, which he is going have to get more used to. Has a tendency to stay down after being fouled. Got to harden up a bit.

 

Don't recall too much of that! apart from when he collected some nice stud marks on his lower stomach.

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Not really.

 

Being unimpressed is not a "knee-jerk shortcoming"; it is merely being unimpressed.

 

There have been plenty of Saints players that have not impressed me on first sight who have later shown themselves to be excellent players. I am extremely happy to, in your view, be 'proved wrong'. It does not mean, however, that on the evidence of a couple of games I have dismissed them as having no ability or potential. It simply means I have been unimpressed by their performance - probably because it was unimpressive and not because of my faulty judgement.

 

HTH.

 

Being in the minority speaks volumes about your 'judgement'

 

HTH.

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If a player shows better form after 6 months in a new team and environment than they did on arrival it does not prove those who were initially unimpressed with him "wrong".

 

It simply means that initially they were unimpressive.

 

HTH

 

HTH? Yes, lots. Many thanks.

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I am unimpressed that without any evidence you have judged me to be in the minority.

 

You may be proved wrong.

 

Well, allow me to direct you to the evidence. The majority of people on here (and many outside of this forum) have commented on the positive impression our new Japanese friend has made in his short stay with the club to date. You, however say he has been unimpressive. I simply point to the fact that you ARE in the minority here.

 

In my humble opinion, like the other minority as exampled in Hooiveld's case, you too will no doubt be (happily) proved wrong in the six month time you allude to.

 

HTH.

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Tbh I was not wildly impressed yesterday - he made lots of runs and he was energetic and enthusiastic so fair play there but he didn't actually achieve anything other than win a dubious penalty. He lacks composure and consequently missed a sitter too, but I suppose any striker can do that; just look at Sharp's miss at WHU. For me we will get more out of him as an impact player and when Sharp is fully up to speedand Do Prado recovers from malaria (or whatever his illness is) those two will be better starting options...at least for now. Lee will take a while to settle, it must be a helluva job acclimatising from Tokyo to Watford.

 

An impact player is harsh & unfair. He's done enough to warrant a start, hence Saturday & it looks as though it wasn't a mistake by Adkins. He shows signs of being quite a player, his work rate & determination are superb. Positional play fantastic. He should have finished a few chances but same can be said for Sharp who's also miss controlled quite a few passes but look at his scoring record. They'll all come good. We've quite a strike force now.

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He's had 3 sub appearances and 2 starts now? (one league and one cup start)

 

To be honest I think he's looked amazing, a completely different type of striker than we've seen at the club for a while. He's amazingly energetic, but instead of the Barnard type of running about trying to get the ball, he his placing him self to be given the ball in all sorts of interesting places. He seems ok to run about and get it if needs be but his running especially seem's more focused on being the man that beats the offside trap or creates the space from a difficult ball/run. (Cardiff at home was where I was most impressed with this latching on to the end of a clearance to the corner flag in the 80th min that lead to a chance)

 

For team mate comparisons I see him as a cross between a better De Ridder and maybe Barnard, but either way give him a little while to get used to England, the team and playing a summer-summer fixture list (instead of a spring-winter one) and I think we have a prem partnership between him and Lambert

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Well, allow me to direct you to the evidence. The majority of people on here (and many outside of this forum) have commented on the positive impression our new Japanese friend has made in his short stay with the club to date. You, however say he has been unimpressive. I simply point to the fact that you ARE in the minority here.

 

In my humble opinion, like the other minority as exampled in Hooiveld's case, you too will no doubt be (happily) proved wrong in the six month time you allude to.

 

HTH.

 

You're really not listening are you? Being "unimpressed" is not "writing someone off". Equally, if Lee turns out to be something special (which Victor has not ruled out), he will not have been "proved wrong". We all revise opinions on things constantly - what's wrong with that?

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Not really.

 

If fans conclude a dismissive opinion on a player after a handful of games, then their OWN knee jerk shortcomings should be highlighted in hindsight after a reasonable amount of time.

 

Case in point Jos Hooiveld.

 

HTH...

 

No one dismissed Jos after a handful of games. They expressed initial reservations based on Celtic fan comments. Big difference.

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You're really not listening are you? Being "unimpressed" is not "writing someone off". Equally, if Lee turns out to be something special (which Victor has not ruled out), he will not have been "proved wrong". We all revise opinions on things constantly - what's wrong with that?

 

Nothing wrong with holding an opinion but an unqualified one is right to be discussed.

 

A majority opinion is much more likely to be closer to the point than a minority one.

 

The issue here has got little to do with distinctions but wholly to do with opinions which belonging to Victor, I wholeheartedly disagree with.

 

Seeing as though you are his spokesperson now, fee free to relay this back to him.

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No one dismissed Jos after a handful of games. They expressed initial reservations based on Celtic fan comments. Big difference.

 

At the risk of going through this again for the hundredth time, irrespective of how much back tracking you do, I don't think there are many forum members unclear as to what your EXACT position on Jos was.

 

Now deal with it and move on.

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no, they were very underwhelmed before his first game...

 

Based on the comments of the Celtic fans yes. So at no point did anyone write Jos off either before he kicked a ball or subsequent to that. In fact, some said that although they were initially underwhelmed, they were more than prepared to give him a chance to see what he could do and hoped he did well.

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Based on the comments of the Celtic fans yes. So at no point did anyone write Jos off either before he kicked a ball or subsequent to that. In fact, some said that although they were initially underwhelmed, they were more than prepared to give him a chance to see what he could do and hoped he did well.

you are so full of shyt.......

but hey, he is very good and proved many wrong..

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Nothing wrong with holding an opinion but an unqualified one is right to be discussed.

 

A majority opinion is much more likely to be closer to the point than a minority one.

 

The issue here has got little to do with distinctions but wholly to do with opinions which belonging to Victor, I wholeheartedly disagree with.

 

Seeing as though you are his spokesperson now, fee free to relay this back to him.

 

Interesting! I would agree with nearly all of that ( not sure about the majority being more likely to be correct though, but that's another discussion altogether). I would add that any opinion is "right to be discussed", not just an unqualified one. Surely nobody would argue with your right to hold different opinions to Victor, me or anybody else; and to state them publicly (it is a forum after all). The point is not whether you or he are right concerning the quality of Lee, it is whether you are correct in accusing him of, "writing him off" merely because he passed an early opinion based on (admitted) limited knowledge.

 

It reminds me of lowly prem managers (McCarthy & Hollaway spring to mind) who have got on their high horses accusing pundits of "writing them off" simply because they have "predicted" (a very different verb) that they will struggle.

 

Now take that out of your mouth Victor, I have something to tell you.

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At the risk of going through this again for the hundredth time, irrespective of how much back tracking you do, I don't think there are many forum members unclear as to what your EXACT position on Jos was.

 

Now deal with it and move on.

 

My exact position is the same now as it was at the time. I said it countless times but the likes of yourself still continue to read what they want to read. I was underwhelmed by Jos signing based on the Celtic fans and what they said about him. At no point did I write him off. I'm not sad enough to go back and find the first comment I made about Jos but it was something like 'pretty underwhelmed but I'm prepared to give him a chance and I hope he comes good.' Rewrite history all you like but those are the facts.

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Interesting! I would agree with nearly all of that ( not sure about the majority being more likely to be correct though, but that's another discussion altogether). I would add that any opinion is "right to be discussed", not just an unqualified one. Surely nobody would argue with your right to hold different opinions to Victor, me or anybody else; and to state them publicly (it is a forum after all). The point is not whether you or he are right concerning the quality of Lee, it is whether you are correct in accusing him of, "writing him off" merely because he passed an early opinion based on (admitted) limited knowledge.

 

It reminds me of lowly prem managers (McCarthy & Hollaway spring to mind) who have got on their high horses accusing pundits of "writing them off" simply because they have "predicted" (a very different verb) that they will struggle.

 

Now take that out of your mouth Victor, I have something to tell you.

 

Funnily enough (or maybe not so much so) I too agree with elements of your post but the point you still seem to miss is that distinctions are not the quintessential factor here as you so rigorously appear to refer back to. The point of the message is what is important.

 

It is very simple here, 'Chung' Lee has impressed most, whilst in his own words, Victor, is 'unimpressed'

 

Now to quote another good soul, 'it's as simple as that!'

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you are so full of shyt.......

but hey, he is very good and proved many wrong..

 

Who wrote him off before he kicked a ball? If you think there were numerous people writing him off (not me, since the FIRST comment I made about him stated that whilst it seemed disappointing, I was prepared to give him a chance and see how he did) then I'm sorry TDD but once again you are the one talking rubbish. He has been really great this season and shown that Celtic fans were too hasty to write him off, something that I did not do before he had played for us.

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My exact position is the same now as it was at the time. I said it countless times but the likes of yourself still continue to read what they want to read. I was underwhelmed by Jos signing based on the Celtic fans and what they said about him. At no point did I write him off. I'm not sad enough to go back and find the first comment I made about Jos but it was something like 'pretty underwhelmed but I'm prepared to give him a chance and I hope he comes good.' Rewrite history all you like but those are the facts.

 

 

 

Lol...

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Interesting! I would agree with nearly all of that ( not sure about the majority being more likely to be correct though, but that's another discussion altogether). I would add that any opinion is "right to be discussed", not just an unqualified one. Surely nobody would argue with your right to hold different opinions to Victor, me or anybody else; and to state them publicly (it is a forum after all). The point is not whether you or he are right concerning the quality of Lee, it is whether you are correct in accusing him of, "writing him off" merely because he passed an early opinion based on (admitted) limited knowledge.

 

It reminds me of lowly prem managers (McCarthy & Hollaway spring to mind) who have got on their high horses accusing pundits of "writing them off" simply because they have "predicted" (a very different verb) that they will struggle.

 

Now take that out of your mouth Victor, I have something to tell you.

 

Precisely. There is a very obvious distinction between looking at the available facts and forming an initial opinion or making an initial prediction whilst being very open to revise that opinion once more information has become available (such as seeing a player play), and writing off a players chances before they have kicked a ball. I'm not particularly surprised that the same old faces do not understand this and it's happening with Lee now (though I happen to believe that Lee looks very good)

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just few hypo quotes on hooiveld.....will let you make up your own mind...

 

Sounds pretty awful but prepared to see what he is like

Clearly the backup option

Very disappointed TBH and what started as a promising window has gone downhill.

we have to settle for Celtic's fourth choice CB which on the face of it doesn't sound very good at all.

Then why have other managers been able to sign half decent players?

and we have a reserve team CB to show for it when what we desperately needed was real quality next to Fonte to form a partnership.

Nice to see I am getting a bit less abuse than normal. I have been totally consistent throughout the window, a quality permanent CB and optionally a striker was what was needed and for whatever reason, if we are honest with ourselves we haven't delivered in the market in that area.

we have wasted an opportunity to push on from our great start

I hope he will do a decent job despite my initial feelings of disappointment

 

well done you for giving him a chance......maybe not dish out your WRONG feelings in future...?

don't worry, we all do it...I was sure wotte was going to keep us up......just admit, you thought he was a flop before watching him play...despite you pre-fixing your comments with "hope he does well" and "i hope I am wrong"

 

 

:D

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just few hypo quotes on hooiveld.....will let you make up your own mind...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

well done you for giving him a chance......maybe not dish out your WRONG feelings in future...?

don't worry, we all do it...I was sure wotte was going to keep us up......just admit, you thought he was a flop before watching him play...despite you pre-fixing your comments with "hope he does well" and "i hope I am wrong"

 

 

:D

 

And he protests at why people laugh at him...

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He scored a cracking goal when coming on for 45 minutes last week. Earned a penalty and countless free kicks for the team yesterday. He looks to have very sharp reactions and is pretty quick and makes clever runs. I think he has showed plenty of promise. Given that he has come to the UK with little English and to an alien culture both in football terms and generally I think he is doing very well.

 

Not sure how much more we could ask of him.

 

He has my support.

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My exact position is the same now as it was at the time. I said it countless times but the likes of yourself still continue to read what they want to read. I was underwhelmed by Jos signing based on the Celtic fans and what they said about him. At no point did I write him off. I'm not sad enough to go back and find the first comment I made about Jos but it was something like 'pretty underwhelmed but I'm prepared to give him a chance and I hope he comes good.' Rewrite history all you like but those are the facts.

But why do you allow yourself to be underwhelmed based on comments by another bunch of fans as opposed to backing the judgement of our scouts and manager who, I suspect, have better football credentials?

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Sounds pretty awful but prepared to see what he is like- nothing wrong there. Celtic fans made him seem awful but I WAS PREPARED TO SEE WHAT HE WAS LIKE.

 

Clearly the backup option- Certainly appeared that way at the time. Prepared to accept I was wrong although it is perfectly conceivable that he was our secondary target.

Very disappointed TBH and what started as a promising window has gone downhill.- Certainly appeared that way at the time. IMO our excellent January window negated our lack of strength in depth in the summer. Thankfully we didn't have an injury crisis until November and December when our form suffered dramatically.

we have to settle for Celtic's fourth choice CB which on the face of it doesn't sound very good at all.- On the face of it it didn't sound good. Ultimately it was Celtic's judgement that was found to be flawed.

 

Then why have other managers been able to sign half decent players?

Not sure what that is in response to, again I imagine I was commenting on initial feelings of disappointment stemming from the sources I have already mentioned.

 

and we have a reserve team CB to show for it when what we desperately needed was real quality next to Fonte to form a partnership. - again, no evidence of writing him off. Expressed disappointment based on the initial facts.

Nice to see I am getting a bit less abuse than normal. I have been totally consistent throughout the window, a quality permanent CB and optionally a striker was what was needed and for whatever reason, if we are honest with ourselves we haven't delivered in the market in that area - I still believe we could have got a topclass striker in the summer and if we lose out on promotion, that dip in form could prove very costly. Quite prepared to admit I should not have said that Jos was not quality. Based on my previous comments though, it is obvious that I was basing those comments on the evidence available. I had already said I am prepared to give him a chance.

we have wasted an opportunity to push on from our great start - and ultimately that blip in November and December could still prove costly.

I hope he will do a decent job despite my initial feelings of disappointment- The clearest evidence yet that I hoped he would do a good job and that whilst I was initially disappointed, I was prepared to give him a chance. It's what I said from the beginning.

 

 

So in those quotes, only once did I make a judgement about Jos' quality for us, the rest were based on an initial judgement from the Celtic fans. For the comment about Jos' future ability I do apologise but at the time AS I HAVE SAID CONSISTENTLY I was initially disappointed but prepared to give him a chance.

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But why do you allow yourself to be underwhelmed based on comments by another bunch of fans as opposed to backing the judgement of our scouts and manager who, I suspect, have better football credentials?

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with making an initial judgement about a player based on rival fans who have seen him play. Plenty of times I have done similar and the comments have proven to be accurate. It just so happens that this time this was not the case. One example is Jonathon Forte. S****horpe fans thought he was not very good and they were proven correct, despite our scouts and manager with better football credentials thinking he was worth giving a long term contract too.

 

Asking other fans is a quick and easy way to get an initial opinion about a player before you see him play. My initial opinion was based on that and I see no harm in having that stance, even if subsequently those opinions turn out not to be accurate.

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He scored a cracking goal when coming on for 45 minutes last week. Earned a penalty and countless free kicks for the team yesterday. He looks to have very sharp reactions and is pretty quick and makes clever runs. I think he has showed plenty of promise. Given that he has come to the UK with little English and to an alien culture both in football terms and generally I think he is doing very well.

 

Not sure how much more we could ask of him.

 

He has my support.

 

Absolutely my feelings too. I've been impressed with how well he has adapted and would much rather have him up front away from home than Guly.

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He scored a cracking goal when coming on for 45 minutes last week. Earned a penalty and countless free kicks for the team yesterday. He looks to have very sharp reactions and is pretty quick and makes clever runs. I think he has showed plenty of promise. Given that he has come to the UK with little English and to an alien culture both in football terms and generally I think he is doing very well.

 

Not sure how much more we could ask of him.

 

He has my support.

 

The condition of the park yesterday didn't allow us to play our normal passing game, so we had to revert to the odd hoof. What Chung offered yesterday was the option to play the ball long into the channels rather than long for Rickie in the centre.If Chung didn't get on the end of it he was putting immediate pressure on the full back.

 

He has great energy and work rate and he'll do for me.

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