Is Britain a Christian country?

[saintbletch]

"Dormant Christian" sounds quite positive. I would use the more negative term "vestigial". What you describe is people using the church, or Church, when it suits their need or purpose - like a cultural tradition, or a social club. Church-going, in that sense, served an important social function in the past.

 

I didn't get married in a church because I don't believe in, or hold to, the words the priest or minister says. I don't want to be a hypocrite. Likewise, ISaint. didn't get my children baptised because I don't believe in those sacraments anymore. Again, don't want to be a hypocrite and say or promise things I don't believe in. The only time I'm in churches these days, sadly, is to attend funerals for family and friends.

 

Many people who participate in these "religious" events don't believe in them. They do it for social reasons. They are "religious" in the most mundane and debased way. They are certainly not Christians. Paying lip-service to a tradition because it's convenient or makes you feel nice and sentimental for a few minutes does not translate into Christian belief or a true religious attitude.

 

Spot on IMO Hamilton Saint.

[Turkish]

So to sum up, Turkish, this thread is yet another of your accidental announcements that your poor social skills and low self-esteem have led you to a bizarre conclusion about the world you only marginally appear to live in.

 

Have the courage to step outside your bedroom, and when (or if) you do happen to meet people, listen to them (rather than chuck your usual garbage at them), because they may tell you that it is no longer 1953. Among the things you will learn is that religion is basically quite unimportant - and that people can live quite happily without the constrictions imposed by the more authoritarian and censorious incarnations of 'the Church'.

 

All kinds of benefits will follow from opening up whatever it is that stands in for your mind. You won't for example, feel the need to try, quite so pathetically, to bully younger posters on threads here, or sneer at women (I can see you have some 'difficulties' there), or fail entirely to grasp some frankly fairly simple counter-arguments to your inadequately expressed 'thoughts'.

 

And when you come back indoors, consider your failure a wake-up call.

 

In short - and I say this with the best of intentions - pull yourself together.

 

[Verbal]

Sorry but that was an interpretation of the survey by a rather spiteful atheist trying to form an argument.

 

On the contrary, Sergei. The trends identified in the Census indicate a clear and sharp decline in religious belief. And Census data in nine other countries suggest that religion there is actually heading for extinction.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You are kidding, right?!

 

You're telling me that all those people who answer in the census that they are "Christians" are even remotely Christian in their philosophy of life? As I said before, they're just vestigial Christians. I mean, are any of the so-called Christian churches (of whatever denomination) really Christian in character? And I mean believers in the radical, social views of the prophet Jesus Christ. Not adherents to a Church, or intermittent visitors to a church.

 

They are dormant Christians.

[Jonnyboy]

They are dormant Christians.

 

or extinct christians?

[Hamilton Saint]

They are dormant Christians.

 

 

So you said! Dormant as in sleeping, right?! But as Jesus said, "Get off your f***king bed and walk!"

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

On the contrary, Sergei. The trends identified in the Census indicate a clear and sharp decline in religious belief. And Census data in nine other countries suggest that religion there is actually heading for extinction.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

 

I would not contest that there is a decline in religious belief but 54% is still a majority. I feel is a great shame and a reflected in the deterioration in moral values. I think that extinction is a rather crude assumption. Religious revivals happen, like the one in the Welsh valleys where they had to turn the police force into bands because crime dried up.

[pap]

When you see religious people clinging to the results of the last census by their nails, the direction of this country is pretty apparent. Dawkins was talking about the way a flat percentage is being used to justify Bishops being in the House of Lords, etc. He argues that not everyone who put Christian on the census is especially religious. 72% of people said they were Christian. Church attendances are falling - around 15% attend once per month or more, according to this article. Out of deference to Hamilton Saint's plea for some terms of reference, I think Church attendance is a pretty good indicator of where we're at. It's effort, time - it shows that you give a crap, basically. Then there's the fact that the message is being renewed at the congregation, and affirmed by others that share your belief.

 

We were 4th from bottom in the Church League table attendance in a 2004 survey, and something notnowcato said earlier rings true; when he said that our church attendances were being boosted by Eastern European migrants. Poland is at the top of that league table, with around 75% church attendance. I think they'd be entirely justified in calling themselves a Christian country. The missing 57 percent shortfall in our numbers might say a prayer when they're in the sh*t, but Dawkins was right to suggest that's a poor basis for deciding the composition of the Government.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Dawkins goes on about actions and how you ask the questions in a survey. What do you think would be the answer if you asked people if they wanted a spiritual or religious ceremony to their funeral? I would argue that the figure would be pretty high.

[View From The Top]

I don't know a single, solitary church goer. I don't know a single, solitary person who would call themselves Christian.

 

Know plenty of Sikhs who define themselves by their religion and plenty of Hindus and Muslims who attend the Temple and Mosque on a regular basis but no Christians.

[Verbal]

I would not contest that there is a decline in religious belief but 54% is still a majority. I feel is a great shame and a reflected in the deterioration in moral values. I think that extinction is a rather crude assumption. Religious revivals happen, like the one in the Welsh valleys where they had to turn the police force into bands because crime dried up.

 

Claiming that our 'moral values' come from organised religion is like saying poetry came from Ghengis Khan. Moral values clearly predate organised religion, and can still be seen to do so from tribal communities that have long existed outside the reach of missionary zealots. And just as well too, otherwise how would we have recovered from the genocides of the Cathar Crusades or the Conquistadors on the New World? What essentially Christian moral values can be discerned in horrors of the Inquisition? In what way did the deeply religious General Franco further these 'moral values' when, with his endorsement from the Catholic Church, he conducted his massacre in Guernica?

 

Or what of the Catholic Church's acquiescence to the Nazis' mass murder of enslaved Jews, 'Slavs' and the disabled? (This began when Hitler declared in 1933 that Christian belief is the 'unshakeable foundation of the moral and ethical life of our people'. The Catholic Church's response was for the Papal higher ups to conclude a 'Concordat', which effectively gave Hitler carte blanche, with the church's blessing, or at least, non-intervention.)

 

As for the 'crude assumption', the prediction is neither crude nor an assumption, but a carefully argued, peer-reviewed, statistically based hypothesis based on clearly visible trends.

[View From The Top]

Nope, I was wrong, I know one, a black lass of Jamaican origin, who attends an Pentecostal church.

 

I, for one, look upon church goers/believers as, well, odd. Akin to adults believing in Father Xmas or the tooth fairy but I appreciate that Faith is a powerful commitment and live and let live seems appropriate.

[saintbletch]

Sorry but that was an interpretation of the survey by a rather spiteful atheist trying to form an argument.

 

That may be the case Sergei Gotsmanov, but the survey was carried out by Ipsos MORI and is statistically significant with a likely error of +/- 2%.

 

Whether we agree with the terms or the motives behind the commissioning, it is 'proper research' and the details are on Dawkins' foundation's site, so I think dismissing it with such an easy hand is lazy, clumsy or based on another agenda.

 

But whilst we're debunking primary research, I seem to remember reading that in the 2001 census somewhere close to 1% of the population claimed to be Jedi.

[View From The Top]

That may be the case Sergei Gotsmanov, but the survey was carried out by Ipsos MORI and is statistically significant with a likely error of +/- 2%.

 

Whether we agree with the terms or the motives behind the commissioning, it is 'proper research' and the details are on Dawkins' foundation's site, so I think dismissing it with such an easy hand is lazy, clumsy or based on another agenda.

 

But whilst we're debunking primary research, I seem to remember reading that in the 2001 census somewhere close to 1% of the population claimed to be Jedi.

 

Guilty.

[pap]

But whilst we're debunking primary research, I seem to remember reading that in the 2001 census somewhere close to 1% of the population claimed to be Jedi.

 

I was, but gave it up and became an atheist instead. Do you know what the Jedi Order does to apostates?

[saintbletch]

I was, but gave it up and became an atheist instead. Do you know what the Jedi Order does to apostates?

 

Are you ex-wing-communicated?

[pap]

Link to Dawkins' press release.

[pap]

Are you ex-wing-communicated?

 

I'm not sure. There is apparently a Jedi Temple over in Anglesey. Keep worrying that some Welsh bloke with a lightsaber will come to strike me down.

[saintbletch]

Guilty.

 

Ha!

 

Well according to Wiki (I know, I know), 2.6% of Brighton's population was Jedi in 2001 and Jedi was the fourth largest religion in the UK ahead of Sikhism, Judaism and Buddhism.

[Turkish]

Some great comments by our leader as to why you are wrong. In the Guaridan as well so it must be true.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/16/cameron-king-james-bible-anniversary

[trousers]

Over 220 posts. Pretty good going IMO. Would like to see it hit the 300 mark though if poss.

[solentstars]

simple answer we are a atheist country and and our original pagan beliefs of the anglo-saxons have been left out of the history books but i,m glad people of all faiths can practise their religions and not force their beliefs on the rest of us. can practise their religions freely.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Claiming that our 'moral values' come from organised religion is like saying poetry came from Ghengis Khan. Moral values clearly predate organised religion, and can still be seen to do so from tribal communities that have long existed outside the reach of missionary zealots. And just as well too, otherwise how would we have recovered from the genocides of the Cathar Crusades or the Conquistadors on the New World? What essentially Christian moral values can be discerned in horrors of the Inquisition? In what way did the deeply religious General Franco further these 'moral values' when, with his endorsement from the Catholic Church, he conducted his massacre in Guernica?

 

Or what of the Catholic Church's acquiescence to the Nazis' mass murder of enslaved Jews, 'Slavs' and the disabled? (This began when Hitler declared in 1933 that Christian belief is the 'unshakeable foundation of the moral and ethical life of our people'. The Catholic Church's response was for the Papal higher ups to conclude a 'Concordat', which effectively gave Hitler carte blanche, with the church's blessing, or at least, non-intervention.)

 

As for the 'crude assumption', the prediction is neither crude nor an assumption, but a carefully argued, peer-reviewed, statistically based hypothesis based on clearly visible trends.

 

You are rather naive if you think that Hitler was a pious man.

 

I will simplify it for you Verbal by saying that people with close religious associations to the mainstream religions are less likley to be involved in crime than those that are not. Would you agree?

[pap]

I think you're missing the point, Sergei, which is that Hitler used religion to get people on his side, and managed to get tacit approval to do whatever he liked from the world's largest Christian church. He'd angled for this for some time, after Mussolini had secured a similar arrangement when the Fascist regime swept to power.

[Turkish]

so to summarise this thread the evidence that this a christian country is as follows;

 

We have 4 national public holidays a year to celebrate christian festivals

1,000's of people get christened every year in christian churches

1,000's of people get married every year in christian churches

1,000's of people get cremated and buried every year in christian churches

The majority of this country (54% i believe) consider themselves Christian, even if not practising

the vast majority of this country celebrate christian frstivals of christmas and easter

The QUeen is a christian

THe prime minister says we are a christian country

When we are in court we are asked to swear to tell the truth on the christian bible

Our children are in nativty plays at Christmas, despite christmas apparantly having nothing to do with Jesus anymore.

The Queen swears to uphold gods law when she is coronated

 

The collective voice of our Saints web experts say it isn't because

 

 

Pap, our resident trekie and self confessed geek has a "annual gift giving day" which just happens to be on the same day on christmas day

Andy, our 19 year old single virgin says people only get married in churches because the pictures look nice

For information on when our annual public holidays to celebrate Jewish, Buddist, Islamic and Hindu festivals, i suggest you PM Bexy.

and not forgetting our resident madman and therapist season ticket holder, Verbals, whose arguements that we aren't a christian country because he knows it all and only a madman would disagree with him. How ironic.

Along with the other compelling arguments, that we were only a christian country in our history, god doesn't exist, something about the romans burning some houses down 2,000 years ago, no one tells me what sort of country i live in, some Romanian bird saying that England isn't as religious as Romania, something about Jesus wasn't born in december anyway, something about Charles Dickens.

 

Does that sum it up?

[pap]

Not really, but don't beat yourself up over it.

 

No-one was hopeful.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I think you're missing the point, Sergei, which is that Hitler used religion to get people on his side, and managed to get tacit approval to do whatever he liked from the world's largest Christian church. He'd angled for this for some time, after Mussolini had secured a similar arrangement when the Fascist regime swept to power.

 

Then what is the relevance of Verbal's point?

[pap]

Then what is the relevance of Verbal's point?

 

You're making the link between morality and religion, specifically Christianity. Religion and specifically, the largest Christian church in the world, stood by and watched while one of the world's most immoral acts took place.

[trousers]

simple answer we are a atheist country

 

Agnostic rather than atheist, surely?

 

Atheism itself is a belief / faith system.

 

Agnostic is the most logical state of mind. 99.9% Fact.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You're making the link between morality and religion, specifically Christianity. Religion and specifically, the largest Christian church in the world, stood by and watched while one of the world's most immoral acts took place.

 

That is a great generalisation. I would suggest that you do some reading on the subject.

[pap]

That is a great generalisation. I would suggest that you do some reading on the subject.

 

Already done that. What am I missing here?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Already done that. What am I missing here?

 

that was quick for such a broad topic. So what were your thoughts on the buring anxiety statement?

[saintbletch]

so to summarise this thread the evidence that this a christian country is as follows;

 

We have 4 national public holidays a year to celebrate christian festivals

1,000's of people get christened every year in christian churches

1,000's of people get married every year in christian churches

1,000's of people get cremated and buried every year in christian churches

The majority of this country (54% i believe) consider themselves Christian, even if not practising

the vast majority of this country celebrate christian frstivals of christmas and easter

The QUeen is a christian

THe prime minister says we are a christian country

When we are in court we are asked to swear to tell the truth on the christian bible

Our children are in nativty plays at Christmas, despite christmas apparantly having nothing to do with Jesus anymore.

The Queen swears to uphold gods law when she is coronated

 

The collective voice of our Saints web experts say it isn't because

 

 

Pap, our resident trekie and self confessed geek has a "annual gift giving day" which just happens to be on the same day on christmas day

Andy, our 19 year old single virgin says people only get married in churches because the pictures look nice

For information on when our annual public holidays to celebrate Jewish, Buddist, Islamic and Hindu festivals, i suggest you PM Bexy.

and not forgetting our resident madman and therapist season ticket holder, Verbals, whose arguements that we aren't a christian country because he knows it all and only a madman would disagree with him. How ironic.

Along with the other compelling arguments, that we were only a christian country in our history, god doesn't exist, something about the romans burning some houses down 2,000 years ago, no one tells me what sort of country i live in, some Romanian bird saying that England isn't as religious as Romania, something about Jesus wasn't born in december anyway, something about Charles Dickens.

 

Does that sum it up?

 

Can I ask you a question Turkish?

 

How do you reconcile such a passionate defence of our nation's status as a Christian country - given that you mentioned lower down the thread that you are 'not religious'.

 

(OK several supplemental questions)

 

What has motivated you to engage with the posters above and argue so passionately on this thread in defence of a belief system you don't ascribe to?

 

I can understand that you might, as a someone who is not religious, still recognise our inherited trappings of Christianity. And you might even post in defence of them. But why go to such lengths to defend the Christian status of our nation?

 

Just thinking out loud here so please don't take offence, but...is it possible that you can see that if Christianity is no longer the number one actively practised religion in our country, then it may in years come to be replaced by other religions/faiths from other immigrant cultures?

 

I only ask because I can see that day coming - not for some considerable time probably, but given the trends it'll likely happen.

 

I can also see those of other faiths pointing at future census results to try to use the parliamentary system to get rights and funding for their own religions in much the same way that the Christian faith benefits today.

 

And the one constant will be that those who are 'not religious' will be forced to see their state wasting time and money on things that, from their perception, is just superstition.

 

Much as it is today in fact.

[Turkish]

Can I ask you a question Turkish?

 

How do you reconcile such a passionate defence of our nation's status as a Christian country - given that you mentioned lower down the thread that you are 'not religious'.

 

(OK several supplemental questions)

 

What has motivated you to engage with the posters above and argue so passionately on this thread in defence of a belief system you don't ascribe to?

 

I can understand that you might, as a someone who is not religious, still recognise our inherited trappings of Christianity. And you might even post in defence of them. But why go to such lengths to defend the Christian status of our nation?

 

Just thinking out loud here so please don't take offence, but...is it possible that you can see that if Christianity is no longer the number one actively practised religion in our country, then it may in years come to be replaced by other religions/faiths from other immigrant cultures?

 

I only ask because I can see that day coming - not for some considerable time probably, but given the trends it'll likely happen.

 

I can also see those of other faiths pointing at future census results to try to use the parliamentary system to get rights and funding for their own religions in much the same way that the Christian faith benefits today.

 

And the one constant will be that those who are 'not religious' will be forced to see their state wasting time and money on things that, from their perception, is just superstition.

 

Much as it is today in fact.

 

because it's a laugh.

Edited 22 February, 2012 by Turkish

[solentstars]

Agnostic rather than atheist, surely?

 

Atheism itself is a belief / faith system.

 

Agnostic is the most logical state of mind. 99.9% Fact.

 

True:)

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[Verbal]

You are rather naive if you think that Hitler was a pious man.

 

I will simplify it for you Verbal by saying that people with close religious associations to the mainstream religions are less likley to be involved in crime than those that are not. Would you agree?

 

Where did you get the idea that Hitler was a 'pious man'?! Hitler was clearly Hitler - a horror story beyond description. I was talking about the acquiescence and ultimately collaboration of the Catholic Church (via the Concordat and later pronouncements) and how that hardly made such a great basis for claiming that there's any kind of intimate connection between church and morality. I'd go further and say that the Church's behaviour indicates a deep-seated moral bankruptcy. A few Catholic priests in Germany protested, as well as a few more from other Christian sects, such as (famously) Martin Niemoller, who actually began as something of an anti-semite. But he was ultimately responsible for one of the most telling quotations about the Holocaust:

 

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

 

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[solentstars]

Not really, but don't beat yourself up over it.

 

No-one was hopeful.

 

I expect its his youth doubt it will be long before he has another tantrum before callling us the liberal elite or mongs in his paranoid world lol

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[Verbal]

because it's a laugh.

 

You didn't read it, did you.

[Turkish]

You didn't read it, did you.

 

[Verbal]

Not really, but don't beat yourself up over it.

 

No-one was hopeful.

 

V. funny. And true.

[saintbletch]

because it's a laugh.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

[pap]

that was quick for such a broad topic. So what were your thoughts on the buring anxiety statement?

 

Actually, it was bedtime reading last night.

 

But, by "Burning Anxiety", I take it that you're referring to the 1937 statement from the Pope Pius XI ( the same person who validated the regime in 1933 ).

 

Yes, I've read it. Reading between the lines, I'd take it as an "oh sh*t, what have we let ourselves in for" more than anything else.

 

Since we're on the subject, have you read the part of the Concordat where the Vatican details its plans for its clergy in the event of full mobilisation? There is a damn good argument that the Vatican knew that the Nazis were heading to war, and blessed them anyway.

 

It was only when they realised that Hitler's influence surpassed their own that they were bothered.

[Turkish]

V. funny. And true.

 

[pap]

V. funny. And true.

 

Glad to see the old humour training is finding a receptive audience.

 

My old Uni has asked me if I want to go back and do a PhD. Apparently, at the end of it, I'll be so funny that I'll know how to post the same YouTube video after each and every one of your posts.

[Turkish]

Glad to see the old humour training is finding a receptive audience.

 

My old Uni has asked me if I want to go back and do a PhD. Apparently, at the end of it, I'll be so funny that I'll know how to post the same YouTube video after each and every one of your posts.

 

If you spend a bit more time sucking Verbals cyber c*ck you might also learn to be as arrogant, patronising and dull as him as well. But at least you'll know absolutely everything there is to know on the planet. You might even get 2-4-1 discount at his shrink.

[Saintandy666]

And we've descended into personal abuse again.

[pap]

If you spend a bit more time sucking Verbals cyber c*ck you might also learn to be as arrogant, patronising and dull as him as well. But at least you'll know absolutely everything there is to know on the planet. You might even get 2-4-1 discount at his shrink.

 

And if you learn to treat people with a bit of respect, you might actually get a friend.

[solentstars]

And if you learn to treat people with a bit of respect, you might actually get a friend.

 

Agree I think the guy needs to see a shrink to deal with his anger problems

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[acersaint]

Celebrating and giving gifts at Christmas time and celebrating at Easter are both much older traditions than Christmas and Easter themselves. Humans have a natural desire to be thankful at both of these times, the halfway point of the hardest season of the year and the beginning of Spring.

 

I'm an atheist, but I think Britain is a Christian society and I'm very happy for it to remain so. I like a bit of pomp. I also have favourite hymns, so I have no problem with that thread. There's no sense at all to saying non-Christians are being hypocritical to celebrate at Christmas, though. It's always been a celebration then and Christians don't own it, their version has just become dominant in this part of the world.

 

Spot on. My sentiments entirely.

[sfcuk fan]

Just thinking out loud here so please don't take offence, but...is it possible that you can see that if Christianity is no longer the number one actively practised religion in our country, then it may in years come to be replaced by other religions/faiths from other immigrant cultures?

 

I only ask because I can see that day coming - not for some considerable time probably, but given the trends it'll likely happen.

 

I can also see those of other faiths pointing at future census results to try to use the parliamentary system to get rights and funding for their own religions in much the same way that the Christian faith benefits today.

 

And the one constant will be that those who are 'not religious' will be forced to see their state wasting time and money on things that, from their perception, is just superstition.

 

Much as it is today in fact.

 

 

This part I can whole heartedly agree with !

 

I was raised as a christian, I was in the church choir from 8 till 12, baptized, confirmed, all that, but do I believe ? Hell no.

 

In the early days when lightning flashed and thunder struck people believed the gods were angry.

Up until the 15th 16th century people believed if you kept sailing west you would drop off the edge of the ' flat ' world.

 

Nowadays we are a bit more educated and we understand what thunder is and we know that the earth is a globe.

 

Yet we still persist in believing in ridiculous religions which have one common factor . . . where is their god ? Why are they always invisible / historical.

 

I believe that Jesus existed, but I do not believe he was the son of god. I think of him as the Paul Daniels of zero ad where people saw his tricks as miracles, they were easily fooled in those days, and yet to this day people still believe him to be the son of a god that we have never seen ?

 

In Islam, do these numbnuts really believe that in martydom there are 20 odd virgins waiting for them ? I mean come on, thats playground stuff !

 

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and I respect that, but personally, I can get through life quite happily as an athiest thank you and don't want to be labelled the christian that I am not !

 

 

( all my own views and no offence meant to anyone ! )