Lord Duckhunter Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 You were asked if you wanted to though and most do, why? If we aren't a christian country. It was more a question of "what oath do you want to take"? rather than "Do you want to use a bible". We have moved on and I'm sure more and more people will not want to use the bible. In my case I thought ,"this book is meaningless to me, so swearing an oath on it is pointless" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Any chance of a poll, mods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 It is a ridiculous statement to say the UK is a christian country as our legislation is based on entirely secular values, some of which happen to also be those listed in the bible. Individuals may be christians, the state and nation is clearly not. It doesn't surprise me that Dune and Delldays have difficulty understanding this though! Agree - this country's legislation does not support Christian beliefs more than any other religious beliefs, in fact they make it illegal to do so! There are probably a much lower percentage of 'Christians' in this country, who actively follow their religion than other religions. I know a Sikh family who go carol singing. I love Christmas, do not believe in god. Each to their own. Society has many Christian traditions. I believe in community, and tradition and celebrations. You do not need to agree with the origins to enjoy a festival. Without religion good people do good things, bad people do bad things - religion can make good people do bad things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Agree - this country's legislation does not support Christian beliefs more than any other religious beliefs, in fact they make it illegal to do so! There are probably a much lower percentage of 'Christians' in this country, who actively follow their religion than other religions. I know a Sikh family who go carol singing. I love Christmas, do not believe in god. Each to their own. Society has many Christian traditions. I believe in community, and tradition and celebrations. You do not need to agree with the origins to enjoy a festival. Without religion good people do good things, bad people do bad things - religion can make good people do bad things So you agree that by celebrating the many christian traditions and celebrations society has, then we are fundementally a christian society, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 So you agree that by celebrating the many christian traditions and celebrations society has, then we are fundementally a christian society, yes? As usual, someone makes a point that is crystal clear. Turkish is still confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Now you may be trying to wind me up by suggesting that Ms pap wears the trousers. That's a vicious rumour doing the rounds to which I'd like to take this opportunity to refute unreservedly. Not that I'm saying that your missus doesn't have good taste of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 That's a vicious rumour doing the rounds to which I'd like to take this opportunity to refute unreservedly. Not that I'm saying that your missus doesn't have good taste of course. It's always pleasing when left and right arrive on common ground. Now if you don't get out from under my bed, and sharpish, there'll be trouble. (don't forget to give Ms pap her trousers back) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Politeness, n. The most acceptable hypocrisy. ~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 The true hypocrite is the one who ceases to perceive his deception, the one who lies with sincerity. ~André Gide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. ~Alfred Adler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. ~Alfred Adler Step away from the google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Hypocrisy is an homage that vice renders to virtue. ~François, Duc De La Rochefoucauld, Maximes, 1678 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Just remember, there's a right way and a wrong way to do everything and the wrong way is to keep trying to make everybody else do it the right way. ~M*A*S*H, Colonel Potter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy. Benjamin Disraeli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 (edited) An ounce of hypocrisy is worth a pound of ambition. Michael Korda Edited 21 February, 2012 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 As usual, someone makes a point that is crystal clear. Turkish is still confused. Not confused at all. Someone has confirmed that this country has a lot of christian traditions and celebrations. How many Jewish, Muslim, Buddist celebrations and traditions do we celebrate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Discretion is the polite word for hypocrisy. Christine Keeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Even modern English people are imperious, superior, ridden by class. All of the hypocrisy and the difficulties that are endemic in being British also make it an incredibly fertile place culturally. A brilliant place to live. Sad but true. Pete Townshend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Hypocrisy is a value that I think has been embraced by the Republicans. We get lectured by people all day long about moral values by people who have their own moral shortcomings. Howard Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I find capitalism repugnant. It is filthy, it is gross, it is alienating... because it causes war, hypocrisy and competition. Fidel Castro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Not confused at all. Someone has confirmed that this country has a lot of christian traditions and celebrations. How many Jewish, Muslim, Buddist celebrations and traditions do we celebrate? You clearly don't get out of your presumably scuzzy bedroom much if you don't get in invited to other people's festivals, religious celebrations, etc. Shall I invite you to one? It might do you some good to meet people. You'll have to shape up first though. Let me know when you're presentable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 You clearly don't get out of your presumably scuzzy bedroom much if you don't get in invited to other people's festivals, religious celebrations, etc. Shall I invite you to one? It might do you some good to meet people. You'll have to shape up first though. Let me know when you're presentable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckasaurus Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 F**K RELIGION................ Why? where would you like me to start? The middle east? The fact that it has held back the human race for thousands of years The crusades The catholic church is probably the most evil organisation on the planet. Do you now what,i could write for hours on this subject but i'm trying to watch the cricket,that's the thing with religion it engulfs EVERYTHING it touches so all i am going to say is EXPLAIN THE F***ING dinosaurs. C'mon god where the f**k are you then F**k jesus,F**K the pope,F**K allah,F**K 'em all GOD DOESN'T EXSIST Get over it and let's explore the universe for the good of all mankind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 F**K RELIGION................ Why? where would you like me to start? The middle east? The fact that it has held back the human race for thousands of years The crusades The catholic church is probably the most evil organisation on the planet. Do you now what,i could write for hours on this subject but i'm trying to watch the cricket,that's the thing with religion it engulfs EVERYTHING it touches so all i am going to say is EXPLAIN THE F***ING dinosaurs. C'mon god where the f**k are you then F**k jesus,F**K the pope,F**K allah,F**K 'em all GOD DOESN'T EXSIST Get over it and let's explore the universe for the good of all mankind It's a fair enough point of view. However, I just don't feel it's necessary to crap on other people's sensitivities if they happen to be religious in one way or another - largely because religion as practised around us is largely de-fanged and diverse. I personally rather enjoy going to Diwali or Eid events, or to Hanukkah at 'Christmas' time. More broadly, you'd have to be beyond gormless to believe that this all adds up to Britain being a 'Christian' country. So the idea of an 'established' religion is dead in all but name. Which seems to me a fair result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Just remember, there's a right way and a wrong way to do everything and the wrong way is to keep trying to make everybody else do it the right way. ~M*A*S*H, Colonel Potter "It's nice to be nice to the nice". M*A*S*H, Frank Burns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Our country is founded on Christian law and morals and is therefore Christian. That would change if the day ever comes when we chose to move over to Sharia, Halacha or Hindi law. Whether we like it or not, Christianity rules until the day the people vote or rise up to change things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 1) For the majority of people, religion, like nationality, is an accident of birth. 2) If Britain is a 'christian' country, is that Protestant christian or Catholic christian ? The constitution, such as it is, still has restrictions on accession to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Our country is founded on Christian law and morals and is therefore Christian. That would change if the day ever comes when we chose to move over to Sharia, Halacha or Hindi law. Whether we like it or not, Christianity rules until the day the people vote or rise up to change things. Give one example of a 'Christian law' - aside from the blasphemy law, which is a travesty. Those laws that are the result of enacted legislation (as opposed to common law) are not rooted in 'Christian values', or at least not the sense you must mean, because those values are basically shared across most cultures. How is the Police and Criminal evidence Act, for example, 'Christian'? Or the Prevention of Terrorism Acts? Or the Sale of Goods Act?, etc etc. People don't need to 'rise up' because there's really precious little to rise up about. (Dump the useless monarchy certainly, and 'disestablish' the CofE, but these are ultimately marginal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckasaurus Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Our country is founded on Christian law and morals and is therefore Christian. That would change if the day ever comes when we chose to move over to Sharia, Halacha or Hindi law. Whether we like it or not, Christianity rules until the day the people vote or rise up to change things.What the f**k are "christian morals" surley they are human morals (i don't beleive in god so they cannot be christian morals) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 The Church of Scotland Sucks . Talk of a secret organisation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Our country is founded on Christian law and morals and is therefore Christian. That would change if the day ever comes when we chose to move over to Sharia, Halacha or Hindi law. Whether we like it or not, Christianity rules until the day the people vote or rise up to change things. Sorry mate, you're wrong. Verbal, andy666 and Bexy have spoken and they know More than us and the Prime Minister and the queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latter day saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 The Church of Scotland Sucks . Talk of a secret organisation i thought that was the Catholics ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 The Church of Scotland Sucks . Talk of a secret organisation Never heard of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 What the f**k are "christian morals" No frivolous swearing on football forums (Matthew 3.17) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 So I decided to speak to my Romanian friend at work who is a Christian. I asked her if she thought the UK was a Christian country. She said no, and actually said it was a bit of a culture shock coming over here at just how non-religious we are compared to her country. She said it was not as she imagined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 So I decided to speak to my Romanian friend at work who is a Christian. I asked her if she thought the UK was a Christian country. She said no, and actually said it was a bit of a culture shock coming over here at just how non-religious we are compared to her country. She said it was not as she imagined. You should invite her down to your local church to take few nice photos and see of she feels the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 So I decided to speak to my Romanian friend at work who is a Christian. I asked her if she thought the UK was a Christian country. She said no, and actually said it was a bit of a culture shock coming over here at just how non-religious we are compared to her country. She said it was not as she imagined. I thought the communists tried to clamp down on religion? Perhaps thats what kept it alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 It is truly astonishing how ignorant and uninformed some people are on here. Some people don't seem to understand, for example, the basic notion of the separation between church and state. Or the meaning of the term "Christian". Or the difference between Old Testament and New Testament. Or the principles of the Enlightenment. If you can't define your terms, or articulate the meaning of some of these basic distinctions, don't bother arguing about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I thought the communists tried to clamp down on religion? Perhaps thats what kept it alive? All the Romanians at work are quite strongly religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 It is truly astonishing how ignorant and uninformed some people are on here. Some people don't seem to understand, for example, the basic notion of the separation between church and state. Or the meaning of the term "Christian". Or the difference between Old Testament and New Testament. Or the principles of the Enlightenment. If you can't define your terms, or articulate the meaning of some of these basic distinctions, don't bother arguing about them. Thankyou for bringing up the enlightenment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Sorry mate, you're wrong. Verbal, andy666 and Bexy have spoken and they know More than us and the Prime Minister and the queen. What kind of gormless fool trolls his own thread? If you really try, you can engage in sensible debate - not with me, if you want, but at least with all those who've put up reasonable objections to your hopeless thesis (for want of a better word). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Don't you be so sure latter day . They are just as bad as the Catholics if not worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I would argue that most people in this country are dormant Christians. Every Parish has a Church and most of us make use of it when we want to get our children Christened or when we want to get married and times of bereavement. Birth, marriage and death are the key points of peoples lives and the church is where most of us head for at these times. During times of crisis and remembrance the local church or cathedral is a focal point. In the main we remain a Christian nation even if we are not as active as we once were. I would also suggest that those who were genuinely god fearing were always in the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 What kind of gormless fool trolls his own thread? If you really try, you can engage in sensible debate - not with me, if you want, but at least with all those who've put up reasonable objections to your hopeless thesis (for want of a better word). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I would argue that most people in this country are dormant Christians. Every Parish has a Church and most of us make use of it when we want to get our children Christened or when we want to get married and times of bereavement. Birth, marriage and death are the key points of peoples lives and the church is where most of us head for at these times. During times of crisis and remembrance the local church or cathedral is a focal point. In the main we remain a Christian nation even if we are not as active as we once were. I would also suggest that those who were genuinely god fearing were always in the minority. "Dormant Christian" sounds quite positive. I would use the more negative term "vestigial". What you describe is people using the church, or Church, when it suits their need or purpose - like a cultural tradition, or a social club. Church-going, in that sense, served an important social function in the past. I didn't get married in a church because I don't believe in, or hold to, the words the priest or minister says. I don't want to be a hypocrite. Likewise, I didn't get my children baptised because I don't believe in those sacraments anymore. Again, don't want to be a hypocrite and say or promise things I don't believe in. The only time I'm in churches these days, sadly, is to attend funerals for family and friends. Many people who participate in these "religious" events don't believe in them. They do it for social reasons. They are "religious" in the most mundane and debased way. They are certainly not Christians. Paying lip-service to a tradition because it's convenient or makes you feel nice and sentimental for a few minutes does not translate into Christian belief or a true religious attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 "Dormant Christian" sounds quite positive. I would use the more negative term "vestigial". What you describe is people using the church, or Church, when it suits their need or purpose - like a cultural tradition, or a social club. Church-going, in that sense, served an important social function in the past. I didn't get married in a church because I don't believe in, or hold to, the words the priest or minister says. I don't want to be a hypocrite. Likewise, I didn't get my children baptised because I don't believe in those sacraments anymore. Again, don't want to be a hypocrite and say or promise things I don't believe in. The only time I'm in churches these days, sadly, is to attend funerals for family and friends. Many people who participate in these "religious" events don't believe in them. They do it for social reasons. They are "religious" in the most mundane and debased way. They are certainly not Christians. Paying lip-service to a tradition because it's convenient or makes you feel nice and sentimental for a few minutes does not translate into Christian belief or a true religious attitude. You seem to be talking about yourself. All we can go with is the last census and that showed that you are in the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 You seem to be talking about yourself. All we can go with is the last census and that showed that you are in the minority. The survey at the beginning of this thread, and which set off this debate, points towards what we said. Maybe will label themselves Christian in a sentimental way for tradition and what not, but when their beliefs are questioned... they aren't that Christian at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 The survey at the beginning of this thread, and which set off this debate, points towards what we said. Maybe will label themselves Christian in a sentimental way for tradition and what not, but when their beliefs are questioned... they aren't that Christian at all. Sorry but that was an interpretation of the survey by a rather spiteful atheist trying to form an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 You seem to be talking about yourself. All we can go with is the last census and that showed that you are in the minority. You are kidding, right?! You're telling me that all those people who answer in the census that they are "Christians" are even remotely Christian in their philosophy of life? As I said before, they're just vestigial Christians. I mean, are any of the so-called Christian churches (of whatever denomination) really Christian in character? And I mean believers in the radical, social views of the prophet Jesus Christ. Not adherents to a Church, or intermittent visitors to a church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 So to sum up, Turkish, this thread is yet another of your accidental announcements that your poor social skills and low self-esteem have led you to a bizarre conclusion about the world you only marginally appear to live in. Have the courage to step outside your bedroom, and when (or if) you do happen to meet people, listen to them (rather than chuck your usual garbage at them), because they may tell you that it is no longer 1953. Among the things you will learn is that religion is basically quite unimportant - and that people can live quite happily without the constrictions imposed by the more authoritarian and censorious incarnations of 'the Church'. All kinds of benefits will follow from opening up whatever it is that stands in for your mind. You won't for example, feel the need to try, quite so pathetically, to bully younger posters on threads here, or sneer at women (I can see you have some 'difficulties' there), or fail entirely to grasp some frankly fairly simple counter-arguments to your inadequately expressed 'thoughts'. And when you come back indoors, consider your failure a wake-up call. In short - and I say this with the best of intentions - pull yourself together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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