Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 No, and neither do the archaic traditions that were imposed on us many centuries ago. It's all very well public officials maintaining these quaint rituals and the Queen using the concept of God as some kind of divine mandate for her to rule over us, but ultimately it is all meaningless if less than half of the population associate themselves as being Christian. The Christian values you refer to (love thy neighbour etc...) do not require submission to a religious sect in order to dictate our actions. Most of it is just plain common sense thinking that people would undoubtedly arrive at if the whole concept of God and religion had never been dreamt up in the first place. but don't the values we live by (very mainly from christian decent) define us...i mean, why else would people travel across europe to be here...? unless you live by sharia law, just remember, you live by christian values...like it or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 the numbers of people that go to church do not define a nation...the values we live by (not sharia law etc) and what we find acceptable in day to day society was shaped by the christian faith...not by Judaism, hinduism, islam (unfortunately for you I'm guessing) The values we live by are enshrined in UK law. They coincide with some, but not all Christian values. Let's run over the Ten Commandments, shall we? I know these come from the Old Testament, but they still form part of Christian beliefs. 1) Thou shalt have no other gods The law directly contradicts this commandment. 2) No graven images or likenesses Not law. 3) Not take the Lord's name in vain Not law. People do it all the time. 4) Remember the Sabbath day. Ok, we all know when Sunday is, but all the shops are open now. Not law. 5) Honour thy mother and thy father Not law. 6) Thou shalt not kill We have a winner. Enshrined in law. 7) Thou shalt not commit adultery. Not law, although it can be considered grounds for a divorce. Thou shalt not steal. Enshrined in law. 9) Thou shalt not bear false witness. Sort of law. You're not going to get nicked for fibbing unless you do it under oath. 10) Thou shalt not covet. Not law. In fact, consumerism is built on coveting. Right, you have a score of 2.5/10 on the Old Testament. Care to re-assess your claim, mate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Why do witnesses and defendants in court have to swear on the bible to tell the truth if we are not a christian nation? Because we once were a Christian country. Today, it is largely symbolic. Our law isn't upheld by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Why do witnesses and defendants in court have to swear on the bible to tell the truth if we are not a christian nation? Because it is a stupid, bullsh*t ritual that should have been abandoned a long time ago - because I bet the majority of people who appear in court and are required to do it are only playing along and do not actually believe they will burn in the eternal fires of hell if they tell a porkie-pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 no...as the laws of the land are descendants from christianity......not a huge amount you can bleat about it... when you look around the world, all laws are enshrined with religious beliefs...I have been around the world (have you..?) and I can tell you. we are a christian nation....not a nation of church goers...but one who lives by its values from the christian faith.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Because it is a stupid, bullsh*t ritual that should have been abandoned a long time ago - because I bet the majority of people who appear in court and are required to do it are only playing along and do not actually believe they will burn in the eternal fires of hell if they tell a porkie-pie. why is it stupid...? we are a christian nation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 no...as the laws of the land are descendants from christianity......not a huge amount you can bleat about it... when you look around the world, all laws are enshrined with religious beliefs...I have been around the world (have you..?) and I can tell you. we are a christian nation....not a nation of church goers...but one who lives by its values from the christian faith.... You either don't know a lot about law, or don't know a lot about Christianity. Or alternatively, maybe I don't. Would you care to offer more alternatives where Christian ideas intersect with our values ( our laws )? I might have missed something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 but don't the values we live by (very mainly from christian decent) define us...i mean, why else would people travel across europe to be here...? unless you live by sharia law, just remember, you live by christian values...like it or not That implies I have read the New testament from cover to cover and live my life according to the values it promotes. I haven't and I don't. I have my own set of morals which I admit are, in some ways, similar to the teachings of Jesus (though there was a lot I don't agree with and therefore reject), but as I said before, most of that is just common sense that most people abide by anyway, regardless of their religious leanings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 You either don't know a lot about law, or don't know a lot about Christianity. Or alternatively, maybe I don't. Would you care to offer more alternatives where Christian ideas intersect with our values ( our laws )? I might have missed something. you are just being sarcastic....I bet you have formed this view by reading the guardian, talking to saintandy666 and listening to verbal get yourself around the world and see for yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Church attendances, for a start. Church attendances are on the increase. Mainly thanks to our Polish cousins who have recently come to these shores and those who want their children to attend a catholic school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 (edited) As a society, many of our basic laws are based upon the 10 commandmants and the Christian way of life. Out of interest, do muslims have to swear on the holy bible when they are in court??? Finally, how many agnostic/atheists would start praying once their airliner caught fire and they were plummeting toward their certain doom? Just asking. Edited 21 February, 2012 by Johnny Bognor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Why do witnesses and defendants in court have to swear on the bible to tell the truth if we are not a christian nation? Yet another of your collisions with simple facts. No one 'has to' swear on the Bible in a British court of law. It's completely optional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Because it is a stupid, bullsh*t ritual that should have been abandoned a long time ago - because I bet the majority of people who appear in court and are required to do it are only playing along and do not actually believe they will burn in the eternal fires of hell if they tell a porkie-pie. Yet another example of how this non christian nation has christian practices engrained in its culture though isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Because it is a stupid, bullsh*t ritual that should have been abandoned a long time ago - because I bet the majority of people who appear in court and are required to do it are only playing along and do not actually believe they will burn in the eternal fires of hell if they tell a porkie-pie. That's the point, for an atheist or non-Christian believer, what is the point of swearing on the Bible except symbolic! It doesn't really mean anything in itself. If I was in court, I'd tell the truth because A. I believe in the justice system and B. It's the law, not because of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 That implies I have read the New testament from cover to cover and live my life according to the values it promotes. I haven't and I don't. I have my own set of morals which I admit are, in some ways, similar to the teachings of Jesus (though there was a lot I don't agree with and therefore reject), but as I said before, most of that is just common sense that most people abide by anyway, regardless of their religious leanings. don't be such a ****.....the things in life you find acceptable and live by....are in fact from christian beliefs....certainly not islamic/hindu/bhuddist etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 That's the point, for an atheist or non-Christian believer, what is the point of swearing on the Bible except symbolic! It doesn't really mean anything in itself. If I was in court, I'd tell the truth because A. I believe in the justice system and B. It's the law, not because of the Bible. take the bible away......the basis many many things are legal and you love to uphold in your sheltered little world are from the christian faith instead of reading about everything...go out and and explore the world...I have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Yet another example of how this non christian nation has christian practices engrained in its culture though isn't it. Because of our History. Let's take another look in 50 years and then a 100, though I suppose we'll all be dead by then. I predict one by one, these little practices will die just like the traditional Christmas has died and been replaced by some sort of consumer-fest/familytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Because of our History. Let's take another look in 50 years and then a 100, though I suppose we'll all be dead by then. I predict one by one, these little practices will die just like the traditional Christmas has died and been replaced by some sort of consumer-fest/familytime. So the history and basis of our countries practices is based on christian beliefs then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 So the history and basis of our countries practices is based on christian beliefs then? which define the nation we are today...? no..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Yet another of your collisions with simple facts. No one 'has to' swear on the Bible in a British court of law. It's completely optional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 which define the nation we are today...? no..? Only if we want nice photos according to this lot Jamie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 why is it stupid...? we are a christian nation... Why is it stupid? Because, as I alluded to in my post you quoted, Christianity was imposed on the public under the threat of eternal damnation in the afterlife if we didn't submit ourselves fully to its values. As pap posted, one of the ten commandments is 'Thou shalt not bear false witness' so the whole idea of swearing an oath on the bible is that if you tell lies in the eyes of God you will be punished for ever and ever and ever. I mean, seriously... Who actually believes that crap in the modern age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 take the bible away......the basis many many things are legal and you love to uphold in your sheltered little world are from the christian faith instead of reading about everything...go out and and explore the world...I have Why do you always have to bring out the age card? You have absolutely no idea what I do with my life and what I have experienced or not experienced. I am aware that our History is a Christian one and that many of practices originally came from that Religion. But the question was, are we STILL that Christian country? Do our citizens still believe in a Christian God and practice Christianity in their everyday lives? Is God still important to the majority of people as it was in the past? The answer, evidence suggests is no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Why is it stupid? Because, as I alluded to in my post you quoted, Christianity was imposed on the public under the threat of eternal damnation in the afterlife if we didn't submit ourselves fully to its values. As pap posted, one of the ten commandments is 'Thou shalt not bear false witness' so the whole idea of swearing an oath on the bible is that if you tell lies in the eyes of God you will be punished for ever and ever and ever. I mean, seriously... Who actually believes that crap in the modern age? really....I must have missed where is was imposed on me.. you are free to vote for islam4uk if you like...and other non christian parties....then you will see what imposed religion really is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 So the history and basis of our countries practices is based on christian beliefs then? Only in the minimal sense that the Church spent the best part of a thousand years crushing all its rivals. Now that the established Church has been de-fanged, it's influence is and has been on the wane. Now that Britain is free from institutionalised religious violence, other practices and beliefs flourish. And thank **** or that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 you are just being sarcastic....I bet you have formed this view by reading the guardian, talking to saintandy666 and listening to verbal get yourself around the world and see for yourself I disagree. You are making claims without backing them up with anything. I've listed the Ten Commandments, and nearly all of them are perfectly legal. So tell me, if we are such a Christian country, why haven't we bothered to incorporate these inviolable Commandments into our statute books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 So the history and basis of our countries practices is based on christian beliefs then? Originally, in the past. But if you think this country is anything like it was 100 years ago, 200 years ago and further back, then you are stupider than I supposedly am! We have changed and moved on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Why do you always have to bring out the age card? You have absolutely no idea what I do with my life and what I have experienced or not experienced. I am aware that our History is a Christian one and that many of practices originally came from that Religion. But the question was, are we STILL that Christian country? Do our citizens still believe in a Christian God and practice Christianity in their everyday lives? Is God still important to the majority of people as it was in the past? The answer, evidence suggests is no. probably not as important....not as important to me to go and watch saints anymore due to various reason but I still believe in them..... like I said, the values you live by define you (IMO) and we certainly live by the values defendant from the christian faith....well, we certainly don't stone women for adultery lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I disagree. You are making claims without backing them up with anything. I've listed the Ten Commandments, and nearly all of them are perfectly legal. So tell me, if we are such a Christian country, why haven't we bothered to incorporate these inviolable Commandments into our statute books? again, go out and see the big old world and trust me, we are pretty christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 really....I must have missed where is was imposed on me.. you are free to vote for islam4uk if you like...and other non christian parties....then you will see what imposed religion really is In fairness, he was talking about the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 It is a ridiculous statement to say the UK is a christian country as our legislation is based on entirely secular values, some of which happen to also be those listed in the bible. Individuals may be christians, the state and nation is clearly not. It doesn't surprise me that Dune and Delldays have difficulty understanding this though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 again, go out and see the big old world and trust me, we are pretty christian I'm pretty well travelled thanks, and as some have shown, just because you go places doesn't necessarily mean you learn anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckasaurus Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 F**k relgion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 F**k relgion Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Only in the minimal sense that the Church spent the best part of a thousand years crushing all its rivals. Now that the established Church has been de-fanged, it's influence is and has been on the wane. Now that Britain is free from institutionalised religious violence, other practices and beliefs flourish. And thank **** or that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 no...as the laws of the land are descendants from christianity......not a huge amount you can bleat about it... when you look around the world, all laws are enshrined with religious beliefs...I have been around the world (have you..?) and I can tell you. we are a christian nation....not a nation of church goers...but one who lives by its values from the christian faith.... Well, thats exactly the nub of it. According to most polls on the subject, and I think the last census, the majority of our people are not religious in the sense that they believe in the Christian perception of God, heaven and hell, and the Holy Trinity. In fact, a relatively small percentage of the population ever go to church unless its to attend a wedding/funeral/christening/christmas singsong etc. However, we live by the values embodied by Christianity because most of us agree with those values, myself included. That in itself doesn't make you personally "religious" or "Christian", it just means we as a nation prefer to live according to those ideals. So in that sense, I would agree with the idea that we are a Christian nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 don't be such a ****.....the things in life you find acceptable and live by....are in fact from christian beliefs....certainly not islamic/hindu/bhuddist etc etc Sorry, but how do you know that my values are not influenced by any of the other religions you mention? Oh, that's right - you don't. If you want to engage in a debate about this then please refrain from personal abuse, and please don't assume for one second that you know what I do and do not believe and where those values come from - you don't, and you make yourself look foolish by pretending you do. I am familiar with many of the teachings of The Buddha, and I agree with the sentiments of much of it, so much so that I have incorporated a lot of it into my way of life - far more than the teachings of Jesus anyway - because adopting the values he taught do not require an irrational belief in a non-existent deity for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 really....I must have missed where is was imposed on me.. you are free to vote for islam4uk if you like...and other non christian parties....then you will see what imposed religion really is I am referring to when Britain was invaded by the Holy Roman Empire who proceeded to burn down villages if the occupants refused to convert to Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Originally, in the past. But if you think this country is anything like it was 100 years ago, 200 years ago and further back, then you are stupider than I supposedly am! We have changed and moved on. Yet still celebrate christian festivals, swear on christian books when in court, marry, baptise and see of the world off in christian buildings and are ruled by a christian, so not that much, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 It is a ridiculous statement to say the UK is a christian country as our legislation is based on entirely secular values, some of which happen to also be those listed in the bible. Individuals may be christians, the state and nation is clearly not. It doesn't surprise me that Dune and Delldays have difficulty understanding this though! Better have a word with the prime minister as well then and tell him how much better you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I am referring to when Britain was invaded by the Holy Roman Empire who proceeded to burn down villages if the occupants refused to convert to Christianity. so the BRITISH army never attempted a similar thing with the crusades then? Oh they wouldn't have would they, we aren't a christian country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Yet still celebrate christian festivals, swear on christian books when in court, marry, baptise and see of the world off in christian buildings and are ruled by a christian, so not that much, no? Not to mention who's going to save our gracious Queen. Mind you, it's only our National Athem, which has no relevance to us as a nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Yet still celebrate christian festivals, swear on christian books when in court, marry, baptise and see of the world off in christian buildings and are ruled by a christian, so not that much, no? Who celebrates Christian festivals rather than pagan ones? Who is obliged to swear on 'Christian books' in court? Who 'has to' marry in Church? And who anointed those duffers in Buck House to be anything 'Christian except the Church itself? I'm sorry, others on here, and I, have tried to raise you above the swamp, but you seem determined to let your low self-esteem get the better of you. You CAN read the counter-arguments if you really, really concentrate. Then we can have a proper debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Yet still celebrate christian festivals, swear on christian books when in court, marry, baptise and see of the world off in christian buildings and are ruled by a christian, so not that much, no? We're getting there. Our practices are just a little behind the attitudes that surveys such as the one mentioned originally in this thread suggest. We are ruled by a Christian yes, I suppose you mean the Queen, but our real 'ruler' is David Cameron who is also Christian... but David Miliband and Nick Clegg are both atheists... only a matter of time now, not that it really matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Who celebrates Christian festivals rather than pagan ones? Who is obliged to swear on 'Christian books' in court? Who 'has to' marry in Church? And who anointed those duffers in Buck House to be anything 'Christian except the Church itself? I'm sorry, others on here, and I, have tried to raise you above the swamp, but you seem determined to let your low self-esteem get the better of you. You CAN read the counter-arguments if you really, really concentrate. Then we can have a proper debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 so the BRITISH army never attempted a similar thing with the crusades then? Oh they wouldn't have would they, we aren't a christian country. You're talking about things that happened over a millennium ago. How is that relevant to modern Britain exactly? For the last time Turkish - and I mean it because I am not going to repeat myself and indulge you any further - YES, we have many historic references to Christianity in this country and YES, there are many aspects of our culture that have stemmed from Christian tradition. Does that define us as a nation?... NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 turkish...you have been told Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Why do witnesses and defendants in court have to swear on the bible to tell the truth if we are not a christian nation? They dont, I was a witness in a crown court case 2 years ago, and I was asked if I wanted to before I went in the box. I was given some sort of card, which I read from. It had nothing about god on it. I cant quite remember all the details, because it was a nasty case of racially aggravated assault that I had witnessed and I was ****ting myself. It was the worst 45 mins of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 You're talking about things that happened over a millennium ago. How is that relevant to modern Britain exactly? For the last time Turkish - and I mean it because I am not going to repeat myself and indulge you any further - YES, we have many historic references to Christianity in this country and YES, there are many aspects of our culture that have stemmed from Christian tradition. Does that define us as a nation?... NO. Do you work on sundays? Or is that a day of rest for you, a day off like most of the christian west. I hope you insist on working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 They dont, I was a witness in a crown court case 2 years ago, and I was asked if I wanted to before I went in the box. I was given some sort of card, which I read from. It had nothing about god on it. I cant quite remember all the details, because it was a nasty case of racially aggravated assault that I had witnessed and I was ****ting myself. It was the worst 45 mins of my life. You were asked if you wanted to though and most do, why? If we aren't a christian country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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