pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 The likes of David Cameron and Michael Gove have been at pains to remind the residents of this island that we are a Christian country. Indeed, in the current SaintsWeb humdinger "Your favourite 3 hymns", forum-hopper dune suggests that we live in a "western Christian society". The Beeb gave some airtime to this over the weekend, inviting the likes of Richard Dawkins to join the debate ( Big Questions, on iPlayer ). According to him, the number of people who self-identify as Christians has dropped to 54% from almost 72% in the 2001 census. Further, he claims that of those that self-identify as Christians, only a subset practice Christian rituals, such as attending Church, etc. He argues that broad self-identification as a Christian should not justify some of the narrow policies that serious religious organisations dream up. So, is Britain a Christian country? Is SaintsWeb a Christian forum? The intent here is not to sink into a debate about the existence of God, merely to establish whether the facts on the ground match up to the wider public claim. Your starter for ten. I don't self-identify as a Christian (or indeed, any religion) and don't attend religious services. My family probably would self-identify as Roman Catholics, but barring the big events ( communion, confirmation ) don't attend religious services either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I'm agnostic so not a religious person (yet...) but if asked "which religion based values most align to your own values?" I would say Christian probably comes closest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I take it you don't celebrate Christmas then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I take it you don't celebrate Christmas then. Celebrate or commemorate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Block 18 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I take it you don't celebrate Christmas then. Well considering it was a pagan festival, Yueltide used to bring some comfort during the mid winter period that was kidnaped and adapted by the christian church for their own use it's fair to say that non christians can celebrate it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Richard Dawkins got made to look like a right plank over this! The figures from the census clearly support the idea we are a Christian country over 50% of people say they are. The Christian religion does not require the practice of rituals or the attendance of church all you need is belief and you are a christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Celebrate or commemorate? Either. And Easter. I'm sure none of you who dont self identify as Christians buy your kids christmas presents or easter eggs, have been to see them in Christmas plays. I'm suere you are actively campaigning for Christmas day, boxing day, good friday and Easter monday to be actively removed from the bank holiday calaender. As this would be hypocritical wouldn't it? I mean, youre not Muslims so i'm sure you dont celebrate Ramadam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 No, Britain can no longer be considered a Christian country HTH. Oh, and who's up for celebrating the period around the shortest day of the year, it would make a nice break mid winter. We could all take time off work, drink too much and spend some time with the folks. Thankfully Christmas has little to do with wise men and mangers any more, it's become a truly panreligious festival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Well considering it was a pagan festival, Yueltide used to bring some comfort during the mid winter period that was kidnaped and adapted by the christian church for their own use it's fair to say that non christians can celebrate it as well. Regardless, It is a Christian festival though, is it not. Cant see too many Jews or Muslims putting up the christmas tree though, What about Easter? How do you explain to your kids that as a none christian they wont be getting any Easter eggs again this year, whilst their friends are greedily tucking into theirs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Regardless, It is a Christian festival though, is it not. Cant see too many Jews or Muslims putting up the christmas tree though, What about Easter? How do you explain to your kids that as a none christian they wont be getting any Easter eggs again this year, whilst their friends are greedily tucking into theirs? I'm not religious but I'm still going to be a tosser tonight. You? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Either. And Easter. I'm sure none of you who dont self identify as Christians buy your kids christmas presents or easter eggs, have been to see them in Christmas plays. I'm suere you are actively campaigning for Christmas day, boxing day, good friday and Easter monday to be actively removed from the bank holiday calaender. As this would be hypocritical wouldn't it? I mean, youre not Muslims so i'm sure you dont celebrate Ramadam. I'm more than happy to be labelled a hypocrite. Guilty as charged. Any idea how I repent my sins...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I take it you don't celebrate Christmas then. Christmas is indeed a special day, but like most families, religion doesn't get near it. I don't think that's uncommon, btw. The meaning of that day has changed significantly, to the point where it is more associated with giving gifts than celebrating the birth of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Christmas is indeed a special day, but like most families, religion doesn't get near it. I don't think that's uncommon, btw. The meaning of that day has changed significantly, to the point where it is more associated with giving gifts than celebrating the birth of Christ. Religion does not come near Xmas??? Really??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 The likes of David Cameron and Michael Gove have been at pains to remind the residents of this island that we are a Christian country. Indeed, in the current SaintsWeb humdinger "Your favourite 3 hymns", forum-hopper dune suggests that we live in a "western Christian society". The Beeb gave some airtime to this over the weekend, inviting the likes of Richard Dawkins to join the debate ( Big Questions, on iPlayer ). According to him, the number of people who self-identify as Christians has dropped to 54% from almost 72% in the 2001 census. Further, he claims that of those that self-identify as Christians, only a subset practice Christian rituals, such as attending Church, etc. He argues that broad self-identification as a Christian should not justify some of the narrow policies that serious religious organisations dream up. So, is Britain a Christian country? Is SaintsWeb a Christian forum? The intent here is not to sink into a debate about the existence of God, merely to establish whether the facts on the ground match up to the wider public claim. Your starter for ten. I don't self-identify as a Christian (or indeed, any religion) and don't attend religious services. My family probably would self-identify as Roman Catholics, but barring the big events ( communion, confirmation ) don't attend religious services either. Oh pap! Good luck with that. There is an important distinction that Dawkins made and I'm not sure it's coming across completely in your post. I heard Dawkins on the radio last week going up against Baroness Farsi and her militant secularists argument and I also watched the Big Questions (it's a great programme). He outlined why he felt the question you're asking needs to be answered. As you've said above, he feels that there is a difference between someone describing themselves as Christian simply for historical or family reasons and those for whom God is central to the way they live their life. I think I'm right is saying that the question he used to determine if the 54% you mention above actively practices religion was something like "When you are faced with a moral dilemma, do you turn to God for guidance". I'm paraphrasing here but it was something to that effect. Of the 54% that identify themselves as Christian only 10% said they turned to God in those times of need. Dawkins' conclusion is that somewhere between the 54% and the 10% populations are true Christians and therefore they represent less than half of the wider population. Why is this important? Dawkins' argument was that large parts of state apparatus (Bishops in the House of Lords, faith schools, etc.) and the associated funding are routinely put in place based on the 72% argument. He feels that as he has demonstrated that there are far fewer 'practising' (my word not his) Christians, then the state structures and budgets should not be set aside for such a minority. Whilst we're on the same side of the debate, I'm not a big fan of Dawkins. But I have to say that I completely agree with his argument. To your question pap, I think we are a christian (with a small c) country, in that we broadly support Christian values but we are no longer a Christian country that actively involves God in our lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Christmas is indeed a special day, but like most families, religion doesn't get near it. I don't think that's uncommon, btw. The meaning of that day has changed significantly, to the point where it is more associated with giving gifts than celebrating the birth of Christ. I think religion is all over it, as without there being a Christian faith there would be no Christmas. If you choose to ignore it's origins then that is your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Many thanks to saintbletch for adding a bit of clarity to the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 To your question pap, I think we are a christian (with a small c) country, in that we broadly support Christian values but we are no longer a Christian country that actively involves God in our lives. Really?? Feels weird agreeing with Turkish to a certain extent but to say Christianity plays little part in this country's day to day life is a little bit blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Religion does not come near Xmas??? Really??? I think religion is all over it, as without there being a Christian faith there would be no Christmas. If you choose to ignore it's origins then that is your choice. In my house, no. A more accurate description would be an "annual gift-giving event". While I can't speak for everyone, that's really what Christmas constitutes for a lot of people. However, I recognise that other people may have a different view, and am keen to hear it. How do you fellas weave the birth of Jesus Christ into your Christmas Day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Christmas is indeed a special day, but like most families, religion doesn't get near it. I don't think that's uncommon, btw. The meaning of that day has changed significantly, to the point where it is more associated with giving gifts than celebrating the birth of Christ. But yet you still "celebrate" it. Even though it's a relgious festival and you yourself say you're non religious. Did you pull your children out of nativity plays when they were young? Afterall, you're not religious, it isnt a religious festival, yet these plays clearly are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 In my house, no. A more accurate description would be an "annual gift-giving event". While I can't speak for everyone, that's really what Christmas constitutes for a lot of people. However, I recognise that other people may have a different view, and am keen to hear it. How do you fellas weave the birth of Jesus Christ into your Christmas Day? Quite a few people I know go to church on Christmas morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 In my house, no. A more accurate description would be an "annual gift-giving event". While I can't speak for everyone, that's really what Christmas constitutes for a lot of people. However, I recognise that other people may have a different view, and am keen to hear it. How do you fellas weave the birth of Jesus Christ into your Christmas Day? Why have your "annual gift giving event" on christmas day then? Why not do it in January, in June, in August, In October. Why do it on the day recognised in the Western World as a religous festival? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 In my house, no. A more accurate description would be an "annual gift-giving event". While I can't speak for everyone, that's really what Christmas constitutes for a lot of people. Like gold, frankinsense and myrrh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 But yet you still "celebrate" it. Even though it's a relgious festival and you yourself say you're non religious. Did you pull your children out of nativity plays when they were young? Afterall, you're not religious, it isnt a religious festival, yet these plays clearly are. Don't want to repeat myself too much, but while we do celebrate the day, we're not really celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, more engaging in the yearly exchange of gifts. As for the nativity, I've already said that my kids are Roman Catholics (missus is too). Being head of a household doesn't qualify me to tell the other people in my house what they should believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Like gold, frankinsense and myrrh? More like iPods, laptops and push-bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 We aren't a Christian country anymore. We are overwhelmingly apathetic to religion on the whole(note that I'm not claiming we are an atheist country) and the more interesting stats of that survey show that, the stats showing how many people actually consider God to be an important part of their life. The Christmas argument is bogus as well. Everyone I know celebrates in a let's have a good old meal, drink lots and see family as well as of course the exchanging of gifts. Jesus's birth is neither mentioned, nor important anymore to a lot of families. Obviously, to many it still is and that is fair enough. But it's meaning has evolved for many beyond Christ and for a lot of people, it's just family time now. I also do know Muslims who treat it simarly; I expect due to the national holidays surrounding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Why have your "annual gift giving event" on christmas day then? Why not do it in January, in June, in August, In October. Why do it on the day recognised in the Western World as a religous festival? Having it on Christmas Day is quite convenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 (edited) Don't want to repeat myself too much, but while we do celebrate the day, we're not really celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, more engaging in the yearly exchange of gifts. As for the nativity, I've already said that my kids are Roman Catholics (missus is too). Being head of a household doesn't qualify me to tell the other people in my house what they should believe. But you are celebrating christmas, right? You might not be celebrating the birth of Jesus, but in your own way you're celebrating a christian fesitval, by chosing to have your "annual gift giving day" by conicidence or not on the same day which is a religious festival. if it wasn't for Christianity your "annual gift giving day" would very unlikely be 25th of December, but sometime esle in the year, if indeed happens at all, yes? What about the nativity plays? This is a very key point, you say that christmas has nothing to do with religion anymore, yet most schools do christmas plays do they not? So kids are brought up to believe that christmas is the birthday of Jesus Christ, who withouy him christmas day, christianinty, hell even your "annual gift giving day" wouldn't exist. You know this yourself, probably taught it at school, so regardless of if they lose sight of this in latter years and do what you do and celebrate christmas for other, selfish reasons. Edited 21 February, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Really?? Feels weird agreeing with Turkish to a certain extent but to say Christianity plays little part in this country's day to day life is a little bit blind. Much as I would sometimes like to, I can't speak for the entire country. But, my perception is that our society, laws and state all attempt to enforce Christian values (honesty, empathy, support for you fellow man, ever repentance to a degree) but I know only a handful of what I would call practising Christians for whom God is the person they turn to when things go t*ts-up. I'd like to think of myself as living my life with many Christian values but I haven't spoken to God for many years - to be fair I've stopped answering his calls. Can you see the distinction I'm trying to make? What about your experience? Is that different? Is that because you are a practising Christian? If I'm honest I don't mind that we have Bishops in the HoL for most of the year. They will I'm sure keep some of our more rabidly anachronisc Peers in check. But there are times when, perhaps debating modern moral issues, where I don't want Bishops representing my views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Why have your "annual gift giving event" on christmas day then? Why not do it in January, in June, in August, In October. Why do it on the day recognised in the Western World as a religous festival? Do you really want an answer to this question that common sense (or indeed, information from my other posts) won't provide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 We aren't a Christian country anymore. We are overwhelmingly apathetic to religion on the whole(note that I'm not claiming we are an atheist country) and the more interesting stats of that survey show that, the stats showing how many people actually consider God to be an important part of their life. The Christmas argument is bogus as well. Everyone I know celebrates in a let's have a good old meal, drink lots and see family as well as of course the exchanging of gifts. Jesus's birth is neither mentioned, nor important anymore to a lot of families. Obviously, to many it still is and that is fair enough. But it's meaning has evolved for many beyond Christ and for a lot of people, it's just family time now. I also do know Muslims who treat it simarly; I expect due to the national holidays surrounding it. That's all folks. our 18 year old oracle has spoken. How were your christmas presents last chrismas Andy? Looking forward to the EASTER holidays from college?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Do you really want an answer to this question that common sense (or indeed, information from my other posts) won't provide? If you had to answer yes or no, to the question "do you celebrate christmas?" What would your answer be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 But you are celebrating christmas, right? You might not be celebrating the birth of Jesus, but in your own way you're celebrating a christian fesitval, by chosing to have your "annual gift giving day" by conicidence or not on the same day which is a religious festival. if it wasn't for Christianity your "annual gift giving day" would very unlikely be 25th of December, but sometime esle in the year, if indeed happens at all, yes? You're right to call 'us' on things like this Turkish. It is hypocritical to a degree but I think you're also making the point of the non-believer. Christmas has moved so far from a religious festival that it almost single-handedly makes Dawkins point for him. Next Christmas, look around you as you walk up your High Street with a few beers inside you and try to determine the percentage of the population that you perceive has had a spiritual Christmas. One that has moved them closer to God. Perhaps it's just me but the number would be pretty low. But it is a good point you make because if, in my wildest fancies, Dawkins is able to change our state structure and leanings, would I remove the Christmas holiday from the calendar? No I wouldn't. It's a winter holiday and a great time for family bonding. Hypocrite? Yes. Christian? Still no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 If you had to answer yes or no, to the question "do you celebrate christmas?" What would your answer be? Thing is, I don't have to answer yes or no. May have escaped your attention, but part of the beauty of the English language is that you can express yourself fully without resorting to black or white answers. I have told you exactly what Christmas means in our house. I can see that you are itching to get me into a trap of intricate Turkish design. Good luck with that. Worked so well for you before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 You're right to call 'us' on things like this Turkish. It is hypocritical to a degree but I think you're also making the point of the non-believer. Christmas has moved so far from a religious festival that it almost single-handedly makes Dawkins point for him. Next Christmas, look around you as you walk up your High Street with a few beers inside you and try to determine the percentage of the population that you perceive has had a spiritual Christmas. One that has moved them closer to God. Perhaps it's just me but the number would be pretty low. But it is a good point you make because if, in my wildest fancies, Dawkins is able to change our state structure and leanings, would I remove the Christmas holiday from the calendar? No I wouldn't. It's a winter holiday and a great time for family bonding. Hypocrite? Yes. Christian? Still no. But regardless of our religious beliefs, Christmas and Easter are national holidays and christian celebrations. Everyone is aware that christmas is the birth and easter is the death of Jesus Christ, who without there would be no christianity. So regardless of if we raise a glass to Jesus on Christmas day or dont think about him at all and spend our day stuffing our faces and opening presents, the very presence of Christmas day as a holiday suggests that Britain is a christian country, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 But regardless of our religious beliefs, Christmas and Easter are national holidays and christian celebrations. Everyone is aware that christmas is the birth and easter is the death of Jesus Christ, who without there would be no christianity. So regardless of if we raise a glass to Jesus on Christmas day or dont think about him at all and spend our day stuffing our faces and opening presents, the very presence of Christmas day as a holiday suggests that Britain is a christian country, yes? Charles Dickens had more to do with Christmas trees and celebrations than 'Christianity'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Much as I would sometimes like to, I can't speak for the entire country. But, my perception is that our society, laws and state all attempt to enforce Christian values (honesty, empathy, support for you fellow man, ever repentance to a degree) but I know only a handful of what I would call practising Christians for whom God is the person they turn to when things go t*ts-up. I'd like to think of myself as living my life with many Christian values but I haven't spoken to God for many years - to be fair I've stopped answering his calls. Can you see the distinction I'm trying to make? What about your experience? Is that different? Is that because you are a practising Christian? If I'm honest I don't mind that we have Bishops in the HoL for most of the year. They will I'm sure keep some of our more rabidly anachronisc Peers in check. But there are times when, perhaps debating modern moral issues, where I don't want Bishops representing my views. Really wish I had time to get into this... a couple of points.. Your practicing friends would be more likely to turn to God in times of thanksgiving as well as during tough times, for their sake I hope the former far outweighs the latter. Not sure why you think a Bishop is not capable of representing the nation on modern moral issues, in fact the counter argument is all too obvious, particularly when you consider their counterparts in the HoL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 I am a Christian and Britian is a Christian country, despite what people like Richard Dawkins, pap, and presumably Verbal think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Don't want to repeat myself too much, but while we do celebrate the day, we're not really celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, more engaging in the yearly exchange of gifts. As for the nativity, I've already said that my kids are Roman Catholics (missus is too). Being head of a household doesn't qualify me to tell the other people in my house what they should believe. Do your children go to a RC school? If so, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Most people I know still Christen their children, most people I know still get married in a church, most funerals I go to are in a church. In my world we are a christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 But regardless of our religious beliefs, Christmas and Easter are national holidays and christian celebrations. Everyone is aware that christmas is the birth and easter is the death of Jesus Christ, who without there would be no christianity. So regardless of if we raise a glass to Jesus on Christmas day or dont think about him at all and spend our day stuffing our faces and opening presents, the very presence of Christmas day as a holiday suggests that Britain is a christian country, yes? Oh, I see your argument more clearly now. But for me this falls into the "All elephants are grey therefore all grey things are elephants" school of logic. All it suggests to me is that at one point Christianity was so important to the population, so intrinsic to the way the people lived their lives, that a formal holiday and celebration came about. For many, the May bank holiday is about workers' rights and anti-capitalist thoughts. Most people I know take that as holiday but I also know that they aren't all anarchists or members of the SWP. They also aren't actively campaigning to disassociate the May bank holiday from the rights of the worker. That would be a ridiculous conclusion to draw simply because a minority consider a state holiday to mean something specific to them. Would you mind if I asked if you are a Christian? Completely understand if you don't want to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 That's all folks. our 18 year old oracle has spoken. How were your christmas presents last chrismas Andy? Looking forward to the EASTER holidays from college?? I'm 19, on a gap year so no Easter holidays for me, just work. Not that I ever looked forward to it for christian reasons, more just time off college! Going to Uni next year. I hope you can know address my points without playing the age card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Don't want to repeat myself too much, but while we do celebrate the day, we're not really celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, more engaging in the yearly exchange of gifts. I wonder how you would feel about being ignored on your birthday with all the gifts exchanging hands around you (and I couldnt give a shiny one about the argument "research and evidence shows he was born in May, if he existed at all", his birthday is celebrated in December) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Do your children go to a RC school? If so, why? Couple of reasons. First, their mum is a Roman Catholic. Second, Roman Catholic schools in Liverpool are basically every other school. It's a very different setup than Southampton where, iirc, Spring Hill, St. Georges and St. Annes are the main RC schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Celebrating and giving gifts at Christmas time and celebrating at Easter are both much older traditions than Christmas and Easter themselves. Humans have a natural desire to be thankful at both of these times, the halfway point of the hardest season of the year and the beginning of Spring. I'm an atheist, but I think Britain is a Christian society and I'm very happy for it to remain so. I like a bit of pomp. I also have favourite hymns, so I have no problem with that thread. There's no sense at all to saying non-Christians are being hypocritical to celebrate at Christmas, though. It's always been a celebration then and Christians don't own it, their version has just become dominant in this part of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu0x Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 But regardless of our religious beliefs, Christmas and Easter are national holidays and christian celebrations. Everyone is aware that christmas is the birth and easter is the death of Jesus Christ, who without there would be no christianity. So regardless of if we raise a glass to Jesus on Christmas day or dont think about him at all and spend our day stuffing our faces and opening presents, the very presence of Christmas day as a holiday suggests that Britain is a christian country, yes? But this simply isn't true, you just seem unwilling to accept it. Midwinter festivals existed in pre-Christian society for a *long* time. Christianity (although it's not strictly accurate to call it that - more appropriately, Saulist/HRE Catholicism) spread so quickly precisely *because* it appropriated pagan tradition and ritual and rebranded it with a Christan ethos. Jesus was not born in midwinter (even by the accounts of primary gnostic Christians, which are to say the least 'flakey' in their authenticity). The vast majority of 'Christmas' traditions - including the concept of gift giving and the feast - have far more to do with these pre-existing festivals than Christianity. Christmas exists when it does because of Yuletide. Not vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 But you are celebrating christmas, right? You might not be celebrating the birth of Jesus, but in your own way you're celebrating a christian fesitval, by chosing to have your "annual gift giving day" by conicidence or not on the same day which is a religious festival. if it wasn't for Christianity your "annual gift giving day" would very unlikely be 25th of December, but sometime esle in the year, if indeed happens at all, yes? You appear to be labouring under a false idea yourself Turkish. Jesus, if he even existed at all, was almost certainly not born on 25th December. This is commonly accepted amongst pretty much all religious scholars. The Yule festival was celebrated all across Europe long before the idea of Jesus became widespread as it coincides with the winter solstice and is all about celebrating the end of shortening days and the returning of the light. The Catholic church, when it was in its phase of systematically destroying an reference to any other religion many centuries ago, hijacked the Yule festival and imposed its own festival in its place which was, ostensibly, about celebrating the birth of Christ. Therefore, to argue that because somebody takes time off work at this time of year, holds family gatherings, eats and drinks lots and exchanges gifts is, by default, a Christian is entirely erroneous. If the Roman empire hadn't decided to use the idea of Christianity in order to enforce its own will on the rest of the world, and Christianity had (as it no doubt would have done) been eliminated before it spread from the middle east, we would still undoubtedly be having winter holidays to this day - it's just that the specifics would be different. Besides, I, like a large majority of people in the UK, cannot choose to work on Christmas because my company shuts down for the entire week until new year, therefore it makes sense for me to have my celebrations at this stage when everybody else is off work/school as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 (edited) Couple of reasons. First, their mum is a Roman Catholic. Second, Roman Catholic schools in Liverpool are basically every other school. It's a very different setup than Southampton where, iirc, Spring Hill, St. Georges and St. Annes are the main RC schools. Second point doesn't stack up I'm afraid, although I agree that Liverpool is in all probability more catholic than Southampton, it's ratio of Catholic schools to non-Catholic schools is 1 in 4, not 1 in 2. *This is Secondary schools, not primary but it should still equate to the same Edited 21 February, 2012 by notnowcato added detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Really wish I had time to get into this... a couple of points.. 1) Your practicing friends would be more likely to turn to God in times of thanksgiving as well as during tough times, for their sake I hope the former far outweighs the latter. 2) Not sure why you think a Bishop is not capable of representing the nation on modern moral issues, in fact the counter argument is all too obvious, particularly when you consider their counterparts in the HoL. To your point 1) yes completely agree notnowcato. They are practising Christians and as such God is in their life all the time - one is a lay-preacher. And you're right, I probably shouldn't have used the terms t*ts up when what I meant was at times of 'moral dilemma'. 2) Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that for many modern moral issues a Bishop would be the best MAN for the job. But on so many of the issues that our modern population experiences; Bishops have either no personal experience, are the wrong gender (I know this is hopefully changing) or are limited in their ability to understand and empathise with the sometimes wanton ways of modern society by being tied to texts from a bygone era. What might be simply testing the boundaries of modern society (which by the way is how a society changes and adapts), is often completely off-limits to people of faith. If we are to have a non-elected second chamber to balance the MPs, I'd rather it was more representative of modern society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 February, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Second point doesn't stack up I'm afraid, although I agree that Liverpool is in all probability more catholic than Southampton, it's ratio of Catholic schools to non-Catholic schools is 1 in 4, not 1 in 2. Well, its heartening to see someone fact-checking the research Whatever, 1 in 4 schools is still a lot of schools, and as I've said numerous times, their mum is a Roman Catholic. Are you suggesting that I force my opinion on this issue and send them to secular schools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 21 February, 2012 Share Posted 21 February, 2012 Well, its heartening to see someone fact-checking the research Whatever, 1 in 4 schools is still a lot of schools, and as I've said numerous times, their mum is a Roman Catholic. Are you suggesting that I force my opinion on this issue and send them to secular schools? Speaking as a father myself, I think you'd raise your opinion of your children attending a RC school if you thought it was not in their best interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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