Colinjb Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 Just wondering really. I have put in the transfer window news article on the front page that Jos' signing was confirmed within the January window and that has been disputed as: "Jos Hooiveld was not signed in January! We held his registration due to it being an international loan. This allowed us to sign him permanently on 1st December." - SaintNeil90 I'm sure this has been discussed on here before but what is the definitive answer? Thankyou Neil for raising the point.
RobM Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 The definitive answer is it makes absolutely **** all difference when he signed. He was with us anyway and remained with us, only fools with an agenda or point to prove in an argument would care one way or the other.
Colinjb Posted 2 February, 2012 Author Posted 2 February, 2012 Does it matter? Well, seeing as he's our player now, it's kind of splitting hairs, but I put in the news article that his signing was confirmed within the transfer window (it couldn't be agreed when he first joined on loan in September, that's for sure) and it would be good to know if I got it wrong.
shurlock Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 Well, seeing as he's our player now, it's kind of splitting hairs, but I put in the news article that his signing was confirmed within the transfer window (it couldn't be agreed when he first joined on loan in September, that's for sure) and it would be good to know if I got it wrong. Fair enough - nothing wrong with tying up loose ends. Was just wondering if there were any practical consequences we might have to worry about.
trousers Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 An alternative way to settle this "debate" to to flip the question around: "If we hadn't turned Hooiveld's loan into a permanent signing, when would he have left Saints?" If the answer is "midnight on 31st December 2011" then the it can construed that he officially became a permanent Saints player at 00:01 on 1st January 2012, regardless of when the paperwork was dealt with.
Sour Mash Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 Not that it really matters, but no, we'd already permanently signed him before the window had opened.
Colinjb Posted 2 February, 2012 Author Posted 2 February, 2012 It does call in to question the relevance of the window then if there is this way around it, surely?
stevegrant Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 It does call in to question the relevance of the window then if there is this way around it, surely? It's because "emergency" loans are allowed outside the window, but loans between clubs in different countries are actually conducted as permanent transfers, with the player's registration being held by the loaning club, but a legally binding agreement being written that obliges the loaning club to return the registration to the parent club at the end of the loan period. As a result, because we already held his registration, all we effectively did was extend his contract from 3 months to (I assume - can't be bothered to look it up again) 3 years, paying Celtic whatever fee it was to cancel the "return his registration to us" contract. Massive loophole there, and only available to us because the Football League allows loans outside the transfer windows. A Premier League club wouldn't have been able to do it.
trousers Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 Not that it really matters, but no, we'd already permanently signed him before the window had opened. When would he have left Saints if we hadn't permanently signed him? (said a spokesman for Saintsweb's Matthew Le God)
Colinjb Posted 2 February, 2012 Author Posted 2 February, 2012 It's because "emergency" loans are allowed outside the window, but loans between clubs in different countries are actually conducted as permanent transfers, with the player's registration being held by the loaning club, but a legally binding agreement being written that obliges the loaning club to return the registration to the parent club at the end of the loan period. As a result, because we already held his registration, all we effectively did was extend his contract from 3 months to (I assume - can't be bothered to look it up again) 3 years, paying Celtic whatever fee it was to cancel the "return his registration to us" contract. Massive loophole there, and only available to us because the Football League allows loans outside the transfer windows. A Premier League club wouldn't have been able to do it. That's a pretty thorough explaination.... Many thanks!
VectisSaint Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 No way ws Jos signed in the transfer window. He was signed at the beginning of December (reported on 3rd). To quote the OS article: (The move was) "completed outside of the transfer window as he is (was) currently registered at the club, therefore eradicating any international clearance issues and giving the green light for the loan to be made permanent at this time". So he signed permanently nearly a month before the transfer window opened. Doesn't seem to be any dispute (not that it really matters).
Sour Mash Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 When would he have left Saints if we hadn't permanently signed him? (said a spokesman for Saintsweb's Matthew Le God) Who knows. All depends what else we did with his arrangement. It doesn't matter though, as we'd already signed him permanently before then.
Secret Site Agent Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 (edited) Well, seeing as he's our player now, it's kind of splitting hairs, but I put in the news article that his signing was confirmed within the transfer window (it couldn't be agreed when he first joined on loan in September, that's for sure) and it would be good to know if I got it wrong. So, let me get this straight. OP asked for clarification for a news article to ensure the facts are right. First two posters: errr does it matters, who cares blah blah blah. It does matter, and colinjb does care enough to want to get his facts right. So, can I conclude that if someone in a theatre cries out 'Is there a doctor i the house' The first two people to come up will say, 'What do you want a doctor for, this is a theatre not a hospital.' and the second 'I'n not a doctor, and I couldn't care if there was one.' Sorry, I know the irony of what I have just done, but I am sick to the face of asking a straight forward question on forums, just to have the first few 'answers' come back as stupid, non helpful dribble. Sorry, sore point with me at the moment, apologies to all. Edited 2 February, 2012 by Secret Site Agent
trousers Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 Who knows. http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/ProfilesDetail/0,,10280~32459,00.html "Former Celtic central defender Jos Hooiveld joined Saints initially on loan until January 2012" Yes, I know "it doesn't matter" but, had we not taken up the option to make the move permanent he would have been here until January 2012 regardless, ergo whatever happened between September 2011 and December 2011 (contract negotiation wise) only changed things from January 2012 onwards.
Secret Site Agent Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 It's because "emergency" loans are allowed outside the window, but loans between clubs in different countries are actually conducted as permanent transfers, with the player's registration being held by the loaning club, but a legally binding agreement being written that obliges the loaning club to return the registration to the parent club at the end of the loan period. As a result, because we already held his registration, all we effectively did was extend his contract from 3 months to (I assume - can't be bothered to look it up again) 3 years, paying Celtic whatever fee it was to cancel the "return his registration to us" contract. Massive loophole there, and only available to us because the Football League allows loans outside the transfer windows. A Premier League club wouldn't have been able to do it. See, Steve gets it.
Sour Mash Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/ProfilesDetail/0,,10280~32459,00.html "Former Celtic central defender Jos Hooiveld joined Saints initially on loan until January 2012" Yes, I know "it doesn't matter" but, had we not taken up the option to make the move permanent he would have been here until January 2012 regardless, ergo whatever happened between September 2011 and December 2011 (contract negotiation wise) only changed things from January 2012 onwards. No, things were changed from the moment he signed his permanent contract.
Barry the Badger Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 This is the most interesting argument ever. FWIW he was signed in December.
Appy Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 You can tell the transfer window is shut with threads like this one.
VectisSaint Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/ProfilesDetail/0,,10280~32459,00.html "Former Celtic central defender Jos Hooiveld joined Saints initially on loan until January 2012" Yes, I know "it doesn't matter" but, had we not taken up the option to make the move permanent he would have been here until January 2012 regardless, ergo whatever happened between September 2011 and December 2011 (contract negotiation wise) only changed things from January 2012 onwards. The OP asked whether he was signed during the transfer window. The answer is quite straightforward, no he was signed on December 1st (or 3rd). I don't understand why some people try to make it complicated. If you read the question that was asked then the answer is simple. It has nothing to do with whether Jos would still have been here in Jnuary anyway, the facts are that he signed nearly a month before the transfer window opened.
up and away Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 It's because "emergency" loans are allowed outside the window, but loans between clubs in different countries are actually conducted as permanent transfers, with the player's registration being held by the loaning club, but a legally binding agreement being written that obliges the loaning club to return the registration to the parent club at the end of the loan period. As a result, because we already held his registration, all we effectively did was extend his contract from 3 months to (I assume - can't be bothered to look it up again) 3 years, paying Celtic whatever fee it was to cancel the "return his registration to us" contract. Massive loophole there, and only available to us because the Football League allows loans outside the transfer windows. A Premier League club wouldn't have been able to do it. I don't believe there is a loop hole. When we agreed a fee with Celtic for the purchase of Jos at a future date, that did not cancel the "return his registration to us" contract. What it did was to allow Saints to register Jos as a Saints player for a further period from the termination point of the loan. Because the FL have the power to block teams from signing players even within the window, I can't see any way the move was deemed permanent until the window opened.
Ohio Saint Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 I think it's fair enough to ask here to get things all neat and tidy. After all...... only fools with an agenda or point to prove in an argument would care one way or the other. None of those on THIS forum!
Window Cleaner Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 I think it's fair enough to ask here to get things all neat and tidy. After all...... None of those on THIS forum! Oh I see, this is a prelude to another,"we've signed hardly anybody this window we must be broke and pay peanuts" thread is it?
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 How do you give a thread 1 star?
Colinjb Posted 2 February, 2012 Author Posted 2 February, 2012 How do you give a thread 1 star? I wouldn't worry, my question has been answered. There is no need for the thread to continue. His signing was confirmed outside of the transfer window thanks to a loophole in international transfers into the football league under emergency loan conditions. If a mod could close this that would be great.
Ivan Katalinic's 'tache Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 Doesn't matter a jot! The key date is that he's signed until 30/6/15 and, given his form, that's just fine and dandy with me.
SNSUN Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 Adkins out, for giving us all this dilemma. (He was signed in December imo, a loophole more teams may adopt in future.)
Dellman Posted 2 February, 2012 Posted 2 February, 2012 It doesn't bother me what date he signed, it does bother me what date he will be fit to play again. Anyone know?
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