david in sweden Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 YesMODS, I saw there was an earlier thread that was closed down BUT... If Pompey fold..and they fall out of the League in mid season ..Their results are expunged (yes I believe thats the correct word) ..from the table. That means all the points earned by other clubs will also disappear from the records (as happened to Accrington Stanley in 1962). ...Saints of course would lose 1 point (as we drew at Fratton).. but look at this : West Ham beat them twice already (4-3 and 1-0)....... would be deducted 6 points Cardiff .......................beat them (3-2 and drew 1-1) would be deducted 4 points Middboro drew 2-2...........................................................-ii-..............1 point Leeds beat them 1-0..............................................................deducted 3 points Hull beat them 1-0 ....................................................................also 3 points Brighton beat them 1-0.............................................................. .also 3 points If this were to happen - the top of the table ....and the bottom...... would look quite different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWD Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 It won't happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieDog Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 I wonder if the real reason they haven't been deducted points by the football league is because the FL expects them to go belly up during the season anyway? I would much prefer to see Pompey survive to be truthful. There needs to be some inter city rivalry (plus of course I have already booked my flights and got my tickets for the St Mary's game....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 I would much prefer to see Pompey survive to be truthful. There needs to be some inter city rivalry. Lots of fans say this, but if Pompey did get liquidated they would start a new club in the city and there would still be a rivalry. I'd rather they got the correct punishment for their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 I wonder if the real reason they haven't been deducted points by the football league is because the FL expects them to go belly up during the season anyway? I would much prefer to see Pompey survive to be truthful. There needs to be some inter city rivalry (plus of course I have already booked my flights and got my tickets for the St Mary's game....) christ mate, respect!!! A true fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 They will not go bust, the FL will want to ensure integrity in the competition and will probably try to negotiate via the FA/PL advanced parachute payments to cover the losses. They shouldn't, but I'm pretty sure that will happen if it gets too serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 This thread is of course Saints related. Imagine if we won the league by them going pop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 They will not go bust, the FL will want to ensure integrity in the competition and will probably try to negotiate via the FA/PL advanced parachute payments to cover the losses. That does the opposite of ensuring integrity. How would Coventry feel for example if Pompey were helped around their £1.6m tax bill when they have been forced into selling players Lukus Jutkiewicz for £1.5m? By avoiding having to pay tax it is giving Pompey a competitive advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 It's been done to death on a small thread elsewhere - and besides that, it won't happen. The FL will do everything in their power to keep them going til at least the end of the season in order to fulfil the fixture list. After that, who knows - but there is no way any points are going to be expunged, non starter, straw clutching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monk Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 I ****ing hate the FL. The only reason they will do everything they can to help our fishy foes is because they know Cortese will unleash a shower of **** upon them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 It's been done to death on a small thread elsewhere - and besides that, it won't happen. The FL will do everything in their power to keep them going til at least the end of the season in order to fulfil the fixture list. After that, who knows - but there is no way any points are going to be expunged, non starter, straw clutching. Noting the FL can do if the courts wind them up on 20th February. At which point, points will be expunged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 It's been done to death on a small thread elsewhere - and besides that, it won't happen. The FL will do everything in their power to keep them going til at least the end of the season in order to fulfil the fixture list. After that, who knows - but there is no way any points are going to be expunged, non starter, straw clutching. Really? A winding up order on the basis they have twice failed to pay their tax bill... Clubs do go bust. And if they do, there's no choice but to expunge their points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 Noting the FL can do if the courts wind them up on 20th February. At which point, points will be expunged. Really? A winding up order on the basis they have twice failed to pay their tax bill... Clubs do go bust. And if they do, there's no choice but to expunge their points. I don't think they will get wound up guys. They have been here before and they have survived, they will do it again. I know that it's in the FL rules, but when you sit and think about it, it is not a very fair system to expunge points anyway. Yes it's great for us as it stands, but put yourself in WHU's place and think about it. You've actually had to play a game more, won more points, only to be told that you are being leap frogged by a team that only managed to draw with the defunct team..! Ludicrous rule - creates far too many problems - I really, cannot see it happening. I might be wrong, but who knows - time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 Lots of fans say this, but if Pompey did get liquidated they would start a new club in the city and there would still be a rivalry. I'd rather they got the correct punishment for their actions. Nah. I want them to remain the same club and struggle for decades. If they start a new club, they'll have years of success as they rise through the league and the whole country will start to like them like AFC Wimbledon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellman Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 I would love it, just love it if Pompey pop and the re-arranged league table got us promotion--justice at last! but I doubt it will happen because Lumpitt knows too much from his old FA job about many corruptions for FL to risk moving against him, there's a can of worms in what used to be our lovely game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 It just might happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 I don't think they will get wound up guys. They have been here before and they have survived, they will do it again. The very fact they have been here before makes it far more likely they will be liquidated this time. I doubt a judge will give them another chance if it reaches court again like the judge did last time. I know that it's in the FL rules, but when you sit and think about it, it is not a very fair system to expunge points anyway. Yes it's great for us as it stands, but put yourself in WHU's place and think about it. You've actually had to play a game more, won more points, only to be told that you are being leap frogged by a team that only managed to draw with the defunct team..! Ludicrous rule - creates far too many problems - I really, cannot see it happening. I might be wrong, but who knows - time will tell. Why is it ludicrous? It is the only fair way to do it. What alternative method would you suggest the league should do if a team goes bust mid season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 Wont happen. The FL and FA will bend their own rules to avoid it, although arguably they are aiding and abetting in breaking one of the most important laws of corporate business - trading whilst insolvent.. Our one hope lies in the resoluteness of HMRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 Why is it ludicrous? It is the only fair way to do it. What alternative method would you suggest the league should do if a team goes bust mid season? I've got no idea mate, non at all. I'm just pointing out that when you look at the system it does not really appear very fair - for the reasons that I stated above. Yes it's the rules, but so what. Just try and look at it as though we were the team that was going to get 6 points knocked off and see if it makes as much sence then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 If a team goes out of business mid-season, what else can you do but change the table to make it appear they didnt take part (expunge the points) ? Its the only fair way, since all those teams that would play them after it happened would get 3-0 non-appearance results or 7-0 hammerings of a totally empty husk of a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekelund24 Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 If they don't get the points deducted and wriggle they way out of it, maybe Cortese should sue the league for our minus 10 back. Technically they were taken the season after the admin, seems reasonable for them to be put back on in another season as we can't (yet) go back in time. That would make us 7pts clear at the top!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 I've got no idea mate, non at all. I'm just pointing out that when you look at the system it does not really appear very fair - for the reasons that I stated above. Yes it's the rules, but so what. It makes perfect sense. A team doesn't fulfil its fixtures, so you remove the ones it has played from the league. I really don't see what is wrong with that, there isn't a fairer way you can do it. You have admitted you can't think of an alternative. Until you do I really don't think you can call the current system "ludicrous". Just try and look at it as though we were the team that was going to get 6 points knocked off and see if it makes as much sence then. Yes, it would make just as much sense. I'm confused as to why you think it is unfair? Explain again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSFC Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 the fairest way would be to expunge the 2nd game versus them if already been played at the time of their deserved liquidation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 It makes perfect sense. A team doesn't fulfil its fixtures, so you remove the ones it has played from the league. I really don't see what is wrong with that, there isn't a fairer way you can do it. You have admitted you can't think of an alternative. Until you do I really don't think you can call the current system "ludicrous". Yes, it would make just as much sense. I'm confused as to why you think it is unfair? Explain again? Sorry for not being able to think of an alternative viable rule FA/FL at half past midnight - far too late for me. As a result I'll refrain from calling it a ludicrous system. My point centered around the number of games played and points won - it seem fairly unjust to me that a team who took maximum points from the games can be so heavily penalised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 (edited) the fairest way would be to expunge the 2nd game versus them if already been played at the time of their deserved liquidation. No it wouldn't. Because Birmingham for example haven't played them at all so what result do you give them? Plus it ignores "home advantage" in fixtures. Edited 24 January, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 Sorry for not being able to think of an alternative viable rule FA/FL at half past midnight - far too late for me. As a result I'll refrain from calling it a ludicrous system. My point centered around the number of games played and points won - it seem fairly unjust to me that a team who took maximum points from the games can be so heavily penalised. I don't see how it is "unjust". You just have to imagine it that Pompey weren't in the league from the start. If they were liquidated it would be a 23 team league, it would be unfair to include results from matches against a 24th team in a 23 team league. Those 23 teams should have a league decided by the games played amongst themselves, not include a few matches against a team no longer present. That would distort things unfairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 YesMODS, I saw there was an earlier thread that was closed down BUT... If Pompey fold..and they fall out of the League in mid season ..Their results are expunged (yes I believe thats the correct word) ..from the table. That means all the points earned by other clubs will also disappear from the records (as happened to Accrington Stanley in 1962). ...Saints of course would lose 1 point (as we drew at Fratton).. but look at this : West Ham beat them twice already (4-3 and 1-0)....... would be deducted 6 points Cardiff .......................beat them (3-2 and drew 1-1) would be deducted 4 points Middboro drew 2-2...........................................................-ii-..............1 point Leeds beat them 1-0..............................................................deducted 3 points Hull beat them 1-0 ....................................................................also 3 points Brighton beat them 1-0.............................................................. .also 3 points If this were to happen - the top of the table ....and the bottom...... would look quite different. Pompey will NOT go bust ....................... unfortunately They got away with a DEBT of £150 MILLION, and ended up starting with a clean slate What is happening now is Peanuts by comparison ( I wish I ran a corner shop, and racked up £150 Million worth of debt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 I don't see how it is "unjust". You just have to imagine it that Pompey weren't in the league from the start. If they were liquidated it would be a 23 team league, it would be unfair to include results from matches against a 24th team in a 23 team league. Those 23 teams should have a league decided by the games played amongst themselves, not include a few matches against a team no longer present. That would distort things unfairly. Oh no, I can't use ludicrous or unjust now.....! Can I just leave it there. Irrespective, my own point of view is that I don't particularly like the current rule. I don't have a better one in mind (although I'm fairly certain that somebody much more intelligent than I could formulate one). Also, I would like to add that I really wouldn't actually want this to happen. Unless we went on to win the league by more than 5 points, it would always feel like 'we never really'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 ended up starting with a clean slate No they didn't. Pompey will NOT go bust Unless they pay their bills and get a new owner willing to take on their debts they will. I doubt we'll see any extensions given by judges this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSFC Posted 24 January, 2012 Share Posted 24 January, 2012 No it wouldn't. Because Birmingham for example haven't played them at all so what result do you give them? Plus it ignores home advantage in fixtures. no answer is absolutely fair. My suggestion is fairest on the basis that expunging every game v them is not as fair as only the second because everyone will have had one chance to beat them. The fact that its birmingham who havent played them yet is typical! Do they play them by 20 feb? I think the home and away element is less important tgan losing both games results particularly in west hams case having won both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 Surely they will just sell a player or two to cover that bill and keep going to the summer. If they dont sell anyone by the end of the window then they deserve whatever they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwertySFC Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 I'd rather get promoted by actually winning games - Can you imagine the nonsense we would have to put with --" you only got promoted because WHU were deducted points - Get promoted by what goes on the pitch not some fantasy land of who's and maybes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 Surely they will just sell a player or two to cover that bill and keep going to the summer. If they dont sell anyone by the end of the window then they deserve whatever they get. The £1.6m winding up order is for November and December's tax bill, they have a lot of other bills between now and the end of the season. They aren't exactly in a strong negotiating position if someone makes an offer for a player and they don't have many of value to sell that other clubs would be interested in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 no answer is absolutely fair. My suggestion is fairest on the basis that expunging every game v them is not as fair as only the second because everyone will have had one chance to beat them. The fact that its birmingham who havent played them yet is typical! Do they play them by 20 feb? I think the home and away element is less important tgan losing both games results particularly in west hams case having won both. I'd think the fair thing would be for all Pompey's unplayed fixtures to be forfeited 2-0, but existing results to stand (I'm not sure why I say 2-0...I seem to have some dim distant recollection that this is the standard "default" score). But the rulebook couldn't be clearer, as I understand it, and ALL results would be expunged. I can see why the league would want to keep them afloat. It would look odd to suddenly switch to a 44 game season when you're more than halfway through. And, of course, there are revenue implications (Saints would stand to lose c. £1m if the game at St Mary's is cancelled). Offsetting that, the club's struggling against relegation are surely going to be utterly insistent that there is a mammoth points penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 (edited) I'd think the fair thing would be for all Pompey's unplayed fixtures to be forfeited 2-0, but existing results to stand (I'm not sure why I say 2-0...I seem to have some dim distant recollection that this is the standard "default" score). How is that fair if at the end of the season things went down to goal difference? Saints for example wouldn't have a chance to score more than 2 goals against Pompey if they needed to overtake West Ham's goal difference. Much fairer for the now 23 team league to be decided on results solely between those 23 teams. Not include fictional 2-0 victories against a side no longer in the league. Edited 25 January, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwertySFC Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 Maybe we should let the pools panel decide each week - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 If the Cheats folding, and all their results expunged (with the Hammers etc. losing 6 points), is the difference between us going up and not, then I definitely would want them to be liquidated. On the other hand, if the Cheats folding and all their results expunged does not make a difference in us getting promoted or not .... then I definitely would want them to be liquidated. DFCSBs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostBoys Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 It won't happen Only Lazarus achieved it once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzie Saints Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 The rules are pretty clear all points expunged, thats the rules everyone signed up to so thats the outcome, irrespective of who gains and who loses out. As they say you win some you lose some, just turns out a bonus for us. But at the end of the day the FL will decide, which ever way they go theres gonna be a sh*t storm. Happy days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 I would love whu to lose 6 points as they are cheats just like that lot down the M27 just ask any Sheff fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 I love the definate 'they won't go bust' posts coming out here. I have been in the toast brigade, for the past two years on the takeover thread. The fact stands, if the FL stands by it's own rules, and the HMRC stands by there's, then there is no wriggle room for the slime down the road, and at last, their cheating ways have caught up with them. Under those rules, they cannot sell or buy any players. Their only hope is a huge cash injection from somewhere, if the FL or FA try to bail them out, they will of been seen to gained an unfair advantage, which again, the FL rules say is a points reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 Oh good, another place to discuss exactly the same stuff as the other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieDog Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 We only missed out on the playoffs the season before last because we had points deducted...how's that any different? You win some you lose some. My preference is that Pompey see the season out and then a decision is made, but at the very least they got relegated a minimum of 2 divisions. I want the satisfaction of beating them at St Mary's one last time I'd rather get promoted by actually winning games - Can you imagine the nonsense we would have to put with --" you only got promoted because WHU were deducted points - Get promoted by what goes on the pitch not some fantasy land of who's and maybes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsaint Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 If Poopey do go bust before the end of the season, and the top of the table changes because of this, you can be sure that WHU, Cardiff etc will sue the Football League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jones91 Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 West Ham would also moan if pompey sold all their players and we **** their U16s 8-0 in April... .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 West Ham would sooner pay Poopeys tax bill than lose 6 points! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Made in Southampton Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 On another note, if they did cease to exist, what would happen to the promotion relegation of teams in our league and those around us? would four teams come up from league one? Or only two down from the championship and two up from league one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 On another note, if they did cease to exist, what would happen to the promotion relegation of teams in our league and those around us? would four teams come up from league one? Or only two down from the championship and two up from league one? It would make common sense for just 2 teams to get relegated. If 4 teams came up from League One you'd an extra team promoted from league 2, and therefore an extra team promoted from the Conference etc etc etc. 2 teams relegated; 1 team liquidated, replaced in the normal manner by the three teams promoted from L1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 It would make common sense for just 2 teams to get relegated. If 4 teams came up from League One you'd an extra team promoted from league 2, and therefore an extra team promoted from the Conference etc etc etc. 2 teams relegated; 1 team liquidated, replaced in the normal manner by the three teams promoted from L1. You will still need an extra team promoted from the Conference to make it back to 92. Unless they only relegate one from the 4th division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 25 January, 2012 Share Posted 25 January, 2012 You will still need an extra team promoted from the Conference to make it back to 92. Unless they only relegate one from the 4th division. Yep, I didn't quite think that one through! I guess, whatever happens, it sends a ripple effect down to where an AFC Pompey get introduced into the league. Quite how it gets managed is making my head hurt thinking about it, so I'm going to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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