A perfect illustration of why you should never vote Labour again

[Saint in Paradise]

dune lost the plot ages ago.

[Hockey_saint]

I will say this about the NHS however; I've spent several weeks with a couple of health care co-ordinators in Washington D.C. who told me a great many things about their systeml I gleened the following: most of the money spent on private healthcare over the pond gets eaten up in admin and paying the vast sums the doctors command (kinda like footballers here) and also, their daughter had to wait in the local ER for 4 hours even though they were private and quite wealthy....what does that say? I have a friend who's the worst kind of councillor, a labour-turned-Liberal one and I once mentioned tp him that it was thanks to Thatcher's school integration policies that I gained access to mainstream education to wit he pointed out that that was amoney-saving excersize and more in sipte of her. But I do agree, you cannot throw money at a problem and expect it to be solved, but in the same sense, you can't make deep cuts and expect the same as well.

[buctootim]

How can an organisation that is so fragmented, so utterly and terribly departmentalised and clogged by this kind of red tape ever be working to it's best?

 

That is exactly it, bang on the money. We used to have a National Health Service - now with the advent of the internal market you have fragmented service units strangled by having to log and report every medical and surgical procedure carried out. Its a huge waste of time - brought in by.....

[trousers]

Fantastic - Dune's idea of cost saving is to employ an additional I grade nurse at £42,000pa (clinical specialist manager grade) to supervise them. Too many managers in the NHS, exactly what the Daily mail likes ti bang on aboutl.

 

The local hospital where my missus and her sister work are starting to re-deploy their highly trained nurses who, over time, became a bloated management tier of pen-pushers back onto the ward. So, without spending any extra money they will have more senior medical staff on the wards.

 

Beats rocket science any day of the week.

[Colinjb]

That is exactly it, bang on the money. We used to have a National Health Service - now with the advent of the internal market you have fragmented service units strangled by having to log and report every medical and surgical procedure carried out. Its a huge waste of time - brought in by.....

 

#Believes he can see where this is heading...#

 

Go on.....

[dune]

Fantastic - Dune's idea of cost saving is to employ an additional I grade nurse at £42,000pa (clinical specialist manager grade) to supervise them. Too many managers in the NHS, exactly what the Daily mail likes ti bang on aboutl.

 

There are too many non jobs in offices, a matron out on the frontline is not a non job. It is what is lacking from what I observed. It's because nurses are chatting away, and not cleaning like they should be in their spare time, that germs are allowed to multiply and is the reason for so many infections in people with low imune systems. It's not rocket science.

[buctootim]

There are too many non jobs in offices, a matron out on the frontline is not a non job. It is what is lacking from what I observed. It's because nurses are chatting away, and not cleaning like they should be in their spare time, that germs are allowed to multiply and is the reason for so many infections in people with low imune systems. It's not rocket science.

 

So to be clear - you think infection control is poor in hospitals - so you want the same people who tend wounds, give injections, have close contact with patients to be nipping off to clean the toilets, handle the soiled sharps and mops the floors when they have a spare 5 minutes? - then a quick rinse of the hands after clearing the **** away before setting up an epidural perhaps?

[dune]

So to be clear - you think infection control is poor in hospitals - so you want the same people who tend wounds, give injections, have close contact with patients to be nipping off to clean the toilets, handle the soiled sharps and mops the floors when they have a spare 5 minutes?

 

Yes. Have you not heard of PPE and hand washing?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I assume you got bored of the lounge dune while there were no partisan political threads about?

[dune]

I assume you got bored of the lounge dune while there were no partisan political threads about?

 

Judging by the threads everyone else did too.

[buctootim]

#Believes he can see where this is heading...#

 

Go on.....

 

Not really its not particularly a party political point - the US healthcare system spends far more on admin than the NHS does. You do need accountability for use of resources, but the idea that the internal market was ever going to make an NHS that received 6% of GDP as good as one that recived 16% of GDP was always going to end in tears.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Judging by the threads everyone else did too.

 

But arn't we just arguing the toss over and over and over again?

[buctootim]

Yes. Have you not heard of PPE and hand washing?

 

I have and if you think that is all there is to infection control it shows how little you know your subject.

[dune]

But arn't we just arguing the toss over and over and over again?

 

2 hours and this is already one of the most popular threads of the week. Timmy can't get enough of it.

[dune]

I have and if you think that is all there is to infection control it shows how little you know your subject.

 

I bow to your superior knowledge.

[buctootim]

2 hours and this is already one of the most popular threads of the week. Timmy can't get enough of it.

 

Its been interesting to see how little response you get on UI. On a personal level I dont actually care about you or your views - you are are irrelevant. What I do care about is the way in which you systematically seek to trash any public service you can in order to make trivial party political points, dragging people like Hockey Saint in as collateral damage.

 

One of the wards I used to manage cared for a little old lady on emergency admission as best it could in a 18 bed mixed nightingale ward designed for 12 beds in 1854. It was a ****hole with one single shower and basin for 18 people, no privacy and had been turned down for capital upgrades by the department of heath three years running. Was interesting to see the heath ministers face when she came to see her mum.

 

You really know **** all about the issues you bang on about and you donrt care because to you its all about points scoring and having a larf on a message board. To people who work in the services and to people who use them, you are an offensive clown.

[Joesaint]

Agree, I'll never vote Labour

[dune]

Its been interesting to see how little response you get on UI. On a personal level I dont actually care about you or your views - you are are irrelevant. What I do care about is the way in which you systematically seek to trash any public service you can in order to make trivial party political points, dragging people like Hockey Saint as collateral damage.

 

One of the wards I used to manage cared for a little old lady on emergency admission as best it could in a 18 bed mixed nightingale ward designed for 12 beds in 1854. It was a ****hole with one single shower and basin for 18 people, no privacy and had been turned down for capital upgrades by the department of heath three years running. Was interesting to see the heath ministers face when she came to see her mum.

 

You really know **** all about the issues you bang on about and you donrt care because to you its all about points scoring and having a larf on a message board. To people who work in the services and to people who use them, you are an offensive clown.

 

On the first point theres is no chance of a reaction on the UI, because thankfully it's devoid of snivellers like yourself that get all worked up.

 

On the second point I have apologised to hockey and it's low of you to reraise it. It is no surprise though.

 

As for my views on wards I am correct. What is needed is less managers in offices and more hands on management on the front line. My solution is bringing back matrons BECAUSE IT WORKED, and it would work again.

 

On your final point theres nothing more to say than LOL.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

i thought he was stating a fact ?

 

jeez do we have to go through this sort of thing again. Are you stupid or just being awkward?

 

Stating a fact is like this: Gordon Brown is blind in one eye. Not nearly the same as calling him a one-eyed idiot.

 

What has being blind in one eye got to do with Brown being an idiot? Absolutely nothing. The only reason it was mentioned was out of a vindictive need to abuse Brown on the part of Dune.

[badgerx16]

To people who work in the services and to people who use them, you are an offensive clown.

[dune]

jeez do we have to go through this sort of thing again. Are you stupid or just being awkward?

 

Stating a fact is like this: Gordon Brown is blind in one eye. Not nearly the same as calling him a one-eyed idiot.

 

What has being blind in one eye got to do with Brown being an idiot? Absolutely nothing. The only reason it was mentioned was out of a vindictive need to abuse Brown on the part of Dune.

 

Brown is an idiot with one eye therefore he is a one eyed idiot. hth.

[solentstars]

vote conservative, moan moan moan, vote labour, moan moan moan, vote conservative, moan moan moan, coalition, moan moan moan, vote labour, moan moan moan. repeat until dead.

 

I Think you got this silly thread spot on

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[buctootim]

On the first point theres is no chance of a reaction on the UI, because thankfully it's devoid of snivellers like yourself that get all worked up.

 

On the second point I have apologised to hockey and it's low of you to reraise it. It is no surprise though.

 

As for my views on wards I am correct. What is needed is less managers in offices and more hands on management on the front line. My solution is bringing back matrons BECAUSE IT WORKED, and it would work again.

 

On your final point theres nothing more to say than LOL.

 

1. Its bizzarre that you think it low for me to highlight your offensive remarks. 2. Matrons exist, find out about how wards are managed - better still call up your local hospital and visit and ask. 3. Yes there are loads more office based managers in the NHS than 20 years ago - you know why? - the internal market. Hospitals now get paid by work they do. Sounds fair maybe, it also means a shed load of IT, doctors spending time recording activity instead of treating, accountants doing the sums and Clinical directors in meetings.

 

You havent achieved anything in your life Dune - either on a personal level in terms of a successful lasting relationship or with a family, or in your career. You can be out argued and out knowledged by 18 year olds. You ran a messageboard where you banned anyone who argued with you and ended up posting both sides of an argument and arguing with yourself. As a case study you are fascinating, as a man, not so much.

Edited 21 January, 2012 by buctootim

[dune]

1. Its bizzarre that you think it low for me to highlight your offensive remarks. 2. Matrons exist, find out about how wards are managed - better still call up your local hospital and visit and ask. 3. Yes there are loads more office based managers in the NHS than 20 years ago - you know why? - the internal market. Hospitals now get paid by work they do. Sounds fair maybe, it also means a shed load of IT, doctors spending time recording activity instead of treating, accountants doing the sums and Clinical directors in meetings.

 

You havent achieved anything in your life Dune - either on a personal level in terms of a successful lasting relationship or with a family, or in your career. You can be out argued and out knowledged by 18 year olds. You ran a messageboard where you banned anyone who argued with you and ended up posting both sides of an argument and arguing with yourself. As a case study you are fascinating, as a man, not so much.

 

I never posted both sides of an argument and argued with myself. In fact i've never used multiple log-ins at the same time (except when I had 5 log ins on here and used them instead of paying a fiver around 2006). You can think and say what you like but that is a fact and I wouldn't say it if it wasn't.

[Kev]

In fact i've never used multiple log-ins at the same time except when I had 5 log ins on here.

 

A troll confesses.

[bridge too far]

I had a situation where a product my employer makes could have saved the Shropshire NHS disabilites unit thousands of pounds per year. It was dissaproved on 2 grounds.

 

1) The department that would reap the benefit was not the one that would make the purchasing decision, and as such this would have been a capital cost for them above their current budget. Therefore no play.

 

2) The benefitting department feared that their budget would not be freed up by the savings, it would simply be 'cut' from their kitty in the next financial year. So they wouldn't back it either.

 

How can an organisation that is so fragmented, so utterly and terribly departmentalised and clogged by this kind of red tape ever be working to it's best?

 

Wll, the coalition's drive for fragmentation and localism in all public services will ensure that things get even more difficult. Surgeons, doctors, nurses, midwives, GPS - all against these 'reforms'. But what do they know, eh?

 

Procurement in the NHS used to be a centralised function with significant elements of local control and input. Economies of scale meant that very good savings could be made. But no - the coalition wants it all to be 'local'. So your local purchasing body (maybe a group of GPs) decides it wants a bit of kit. No real leverage any more with regard to price and after-sales service. And, if it's something like a scanner (that the consortium down the road already has so your local consortium has to have one too so it can 'compete') that'll require a special building, specialist staff, a special maintenance budget etc.

 

It will all go horribly wrong.

[shirleysfc]

It's because nurses are chatting away, and not cleaning like they should be in their spare time, that germs are allowed to multiply and is the reason for so many infections in people with low imune systems. It's not rocket science.

 

Wow, just wow! Dune it not having a clue in what he's talking about shocker!

[Verbal]

A troll confesses.

 

Quite. It's also a lie because the £5 membership charge was much later than 2006.

[teamsaint]

Wll, the coalition's drive for fragmentation and localism in all public services will ensure that things get even more difficult. Surgeons, doctors, nurses, midwives, GPS - all against these 'reforms'. But what do they know, eh?

 

Procurement in the NHS used to be a centralised function with significant elements of local control and input. Economies of scale meant that very good savings could be made. But no - the coalition wants it all to be 'local'. So your local purchasing body (maybe a group of GPs) decides it wants a bit of kit. No real leverage any more with regard to price and after-sales service. And, if it's something like a scanner (that the consortium down the road already has so your local consortium has to have one too so it can 'compete') that'll require a special building, specialist staff, a special maintenance budget etc.

 

It will all go horribly wrong.

 

yup.

 

Back in the day, before all the competition nonsense, the NHS had administration costs that were the envy of the world. (sub 5%)

Not everything was perfect, and there was no doubt plenty of room for efficiencies.

 

These days admin costs are heading remorselessly upwards, and will eventually get close to the US level of around 20 %. Thats progress !!

The effective privatisation, driven by US healthcare companies, will just accelerate the process, and quite deliberately.

 

This is what happens when you have half baked , "pretend" competition, and too many snouts in troughs.

We need a system based on needs and resources.

[the colonel]

 

10 years of a tax and spend Labour government and the UK's debt level is second only to that of Japan among major economies.

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2089295/The-horrifying-graph-shows-UKs-households-businesses-Government-hold-debt-nation-bar-Japan.html#ixzz1k82ZsPSm

 

I hope those stupid enough to have voted them in have learnt their lesson.

 

Considering you have to resort to name calling you are not so convinced of your (ooops someone else's) argument!!

[revolution saint]

1. Its bizzarre that you think it low for me to highlight your offensive remarks. 2. Matrons exist, find out about how wards are managed - better still call up your local hospital and visit and ask. 3. Yes there are loads more office based managers in the NHS than 20 years ago - you know why? - the internal market. Hospitals now get paid by work they do. Sounds fair maybe, it also means a shed load of IT, doctors spending time recording activity instead of treating, accountants doing the sums and Clinical directors in meetings. You havent achieved anything in your life Dune - either on a personal level in terms of a successful lasting relationship or with a family, or in your career. You can be out argued and out knowledged by 18 year olds. You ran a messageboard where you banned anyone who argued with you and ended up posting both sides of an argument and arguing with yourself. As a case study you are fascinating, as a man, not so much.

 

I absolutely agree with you about the internal market - you really need to have worked in it to understand just how mental it is. I did 12 months on the information side of things and that was enough - little armies of us PCT lining up against Health care provider arguing over our share of the pot. There's a lot of things I'm proud about contributing to - the reduction in waiting lists is one of them but if we're talking about waste and too much beaurocracy then that's the internal market's fault. The stupid thing is that in the internal market world we justified ourselves - the more of us you had then the more money you got. In terms of the NHS as a whole we were a waste of resources.

[bridge too far]

yup.

 

Back in the day, before all the competition nonsense, the NHS had administration costs that were the envy of the world. (sub 5%)

Not everything was perfect, and there was no doubt plenty of room for efficiencies.

 

These days admin costs are heading remorselessly upwards, and will eventually get close to the US level of around 20 %. Thats progress !!

The effective privatisation, driven by US healthcare companies, will just accelerate the process, and quite deliberately.

 

This is what happens when you have half baked , "pretend" competition, and too many snouts in troughs.

We need a system based on needs and resources.

 

So true. In the 'old' days (pre this government), if an NHS hospital wanted a state of the art piece of kit, the hospital (or the department within the hospital) had to submit a business case to get additional capital funding beyond its normal annual capital funding. All the costs had to be demonstrated.

 

I remember well when a well-meaning local charity raised money for a new MRI scanner. Admirable work. But they failed to consider that such a scanner needs a specialist building (RF proofed), and of course the staff, training and consumables that would be required on an on-going basis and that the local hospital couldn't afford.

 

If purchasing power is trickled down to a very local level, the local consortia will feel they have to have the same stuff as the group along the road in order to compete - regardless of whether or not they need it.

 

It happened before when the purchaser / provider split was first introduced in the early 1990s and I see no reason why it won't happen again.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I am not sure who is responsible but when I take my children to the Doctors now it is like going into a bank or an insurance company; its all about making money and I think health and profit making are not appropriate.

 

As for hospitals, I have spent much of the last few months in them and the nurses and Doctors with very few exceptions are the most caring and wonderful people in our society. I would respect their opinions on how to go forward and it puzzles me why they are not at the heart of the discussion on making the NHS function more effectively.

[Saintandy666]

That's not government debt, thought our high debt levels were more to do with our large financial sector.

[badgerx16]

That's not government debt, thought our high debt levels were more to do with our large financial sector.

 

You can't use facts to derail Dunce's argument.

[Saintandy666]

You can't use facts to derail Dunce's argument.

 

Indeed, I should have learnt by now, though it is at least useful to state the facts so at least every realises his thread is based on a false premise!

[dune]

Well things are certainly looking up.

 

YouGov’s weekly poll for the Sunday Times has topline figures of CON 41%, LAB 36%, LDEM 9%, Others 14%. The five point Conservative lead is the YouGov’s highest since October 2010 and the Labour score the lowest.

[pap]

Well things are certainly looking up.

 

YouGov’s weekly poll for the Sunday Times has topline figures of CON 41%, LAB 36%, LDEM 9%, Others 14%. The five point Conservative lead is the YouGov’s highest since October 2010 and the Labour score the lowest.

 

Meaningless until a general election.

[dune]

Meaningless until a general election.

 

Quite, but it's still pleasing to see especially with so much doom and gloom in the news.

 

Clearly people are feeling the squeeze, but are intelligent enough to realise the cuts and capping benefits etc are a good thing. I think it's brilliant that we have a government that do not reward those on benefits.

[trousers]

iancollinsuk Ian Collins

 

Amazing to see so many 'New Labour' members (Prescott et al) become arch lefties again, now that the Tories are back in the Driving Seat.

 

1 minute ago

[badgerx16]

iancollinsuk Ian Collins

 

Amazing to see so many 'New Labour' members (Prescott et al) become arch lefties again, now that the Tories are back in the Driving Seat.

 

1 minute ago

 

Does he still have 2 jags ? Mind you, give him credit - a Labour MP who actually has had a "real" job.

[trousers]

Can't even make money out of oil these days....

 

BBC News (UK) @BBCNews

About 1,000 jobs under threat at #Coryton oil refinery, Essex, after Swiss owner Petroplus files for bankruptcy bbc.in/A7eYc2

[Jonnyboy]

Quite, but it's still pleasing to see especially with so much doom and gloom in the news.

 

Clearly people are feeling the squeeze, but are intelligent enough to realise the cuts and capping benefits etc are a good thing. I think it's brilliant that we have a government that do not reward those on benefits.

 

Looks like the Lords disagree with this wonderful government.

[trousers]

...

[Jonnyboy]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4081413/Benefits-cap-fury.html

 

http://nobodylikesatory.wordpress.com/

[Orange]

Remind me, how many MPs do they have ? Is it more that the Greens ?

 

UKIP got 2 and a half million votes in the last European elections (coming second ).

[sadoldgit]

Didn't this access to huge amounts of credit start under the Tories in the Yuppified 80's???

[trousers]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/ok,-we'll-get-jobs,-say-poor-people-201201244803/

 

BRITAIN'S poor people have finally conceded defeat and vowed to find work first thing this morning.

As the government pressed ahead with welfare reform despite some bishops rejecting a £26,000 benefit cap, the nation’s job centres braced themselves for an influx of millions, ready to embark on a fantastic career.

 

Experts predicted it will be the first time Britain has experienced full employment since 526, when Olaf the Prudent opened the Dark Ages' largest pig showroom, in Colchester.

 

Three bishops in their official law-making dresses

[Jonnyboy]

Lol, trousers, I was going to post the same thing.

[Jonnyboy]

Long-term claimant Nikki Hollis said: "Don't get me wrong, while raising two kids in a bedsit on eighty quid a week has been a hoot, I finally have to accept that play time is over.

 

"I just can't decide whether to work for a major clearing bank or a traditional, high street retailer. Talk about your dizzying rainbow of life-changing opportunities."

 

The entire benefits system is expected to be defunct by early March, making thousands of people unemployed who were formerly employed in preventing bedsit-based malnutrition. However, most of them are expected to quickly find work as racing drivers or astronauts.