HS2 - Worth the dough?

[OVER THE HILL]

With Bob Crow throwing his weight behind this project I suppose this was to be expected.

 

http://newsthump.com/2012/01/10/first-hs2-drivers-strike-scheduled-for-2027/

 

[John Boy Saint]

We will be lucky to see this completed in our life times, Flora and Fauna will pull on its hard hat and hi-vis and throw up hurdles all along it's diverse route...................... Not forgetting the tree people!

[dune]

We will be lucky to see this completed in our life times, Flora and Fauna will pull on its hard hat and hi-vis and throw up hurdles all along it's diverse route...................... Not forgetting the tree people!

 

I still think of them when i zoom along the Newbury by-pass and whizz through Twyford down.

[Amesbury Saint]

would it be cheaper just to move London closer to Birmingham?

or make Birmingham the capital.

[Sour Mash]

Is that you who pushes the trolly up and down the train desperate for someone to buy a cup of horrible tea and a biscuit for £12?

Yes! Great banter on here today, love it!

[sandwichsaint]

Fair enough if you use trains a lot I'm sure its a bit more exciting! Rail fairs make me a bit sick to be honest, works around the same price for me to run a car for a year than to get the train back home only when I have too (Huddersfield to Southampton, xmas / easter / summer - £230 return if I buy it on the day).

 

Anyway that is beside the point. Woooo Thomas the tank engine and that.

 

And if you buy it up front with a railcard it's probably GBP100 tops, 50 if you're prepared to dig around and travel at silly times.

 

No way can running a car be cheaper.

[Simples]

And if you buy it up front with a railcard it's probably GBP100 tops, 50 if you're prepared to dig around and travel at silly times.

 

No way can running a car be cheaper.

 

Not for one person, maybe, but not much in it. What about when more than one of you is travelling. Say, a couple, or a family. Thats why it's much easier, cheaper and more convienient, to travel by car. Plus, you travel at what time you want, and don't have to share your space with a complete stranger.

[SuperMikey]

Always a good thing to build for the future, trains here are pretty sh!te and improvements are needed. Whether this is the right time to spend £33bn when there are almost 3m unemployed people in the country is debatable...

[OVER THE HILL]

Construction doesn't begin until 2016 and it may take ten years to complete so the costs are spread over many years. This is not just about speed but greater capacity on the railways , it will also be connected to HS1 so the larger sized continental freight wagons can run through to Birmingham.

[Saintandy666]

Construction doesn't begin until 2016 and it may take ten years to complete so the costs are spread over many years. This is not just about speed but greater capacity on the railways , it will also be connected to HS1 so the larger sized continental freight wagons can run through to Birmingham.

 

Good point. Current finances are irrelevant. As this will be post-crisis spending and over years.

[dune]

Good point. Current finances are irrelevant. As this will be post-crisis spending and over years.

 

If you really think the crisis is over you're very optimistic. Europe still has to go through the break up of the eurozone and that has to have happened before we can start thinking we're on the up.

[teamsaint]

the reopening of the Hythe /Totton/Southampton branch was costed at £3m .

 

Now THAT would be public money well spent.

 

Don't know how much the walkway along side the river from St Denys to Northam cost, but it is a brilliant , and undoubtedly a far better use of public money,per pound, than the £33 bn that the toffs want spending so that they get back to the shire constituencies 20 mins quicker.

 

I would love to see HST all over the UK, but there are far far more important calls on public money.

[Verbal]

the reopening of the Hythe /Totton/Southampton branch was costed at £3m.

 

Was that one way or return?

[Saintandy666]

If you really think the crisis is over you're very optimistic. Europe still has to go through the break up of the eurozone and that has to have happened before we can start thinking we're on the up.

 

 

Well, I'd like to think that we'd be out of the crisis by 2026! Construction doesn't begin until 2016. The spending is spread out over more than a decade. It's not one big hit, and we desperately need the upgrade.

 

I never said the crisis is already over, just that it should be over and receding by the time construction begins and certainly over within the decade.

[Patrick Bateman]

Great news its about time we modernised the thirdworld train system we have in place .

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

 

But that's just it, it isn't modernising the train system already in place, it's building something brand new and utterly pointless.

 

I commute every day in to London Waterloo, so far, every day this YEAR, my train has been late, by 10 minutes to 30 minutes. For which I pay almost £5k a year for honour. I would far rather the money was spent on improving what we already have and bringing down the prices of a train journey. There are so many improvements they could make with the money; longer trains, improved platform space, better signalling allowing trains to run closer together, better signalling that doesn't fail, upgrading London mainline stations to take more trains at once and so on.

 

This HS2 project is a large bag of balls. Utterly pointless. I would like someone to present me with a compelling business case for a £30m spend. Let's face it, it won't be £30m either, it'll be £100m by the time some private sector company has employed a bunch of useless and gutless Project Managers who are green and bugger up the schedule, the resourcing, the logistics etc etc etc.

As for people using HS2, people do know the prices of a train journey will be obscene, right?

 

In fact I am totally appalled by this idea and for the first time, I am thinking of writing to my MP (whom I voted for).

[Patrick Bateman]

the reopening of the Hythe /Totton/Southampton branch was costed at £3m .

 

Now THAT would be public money well spent.

 

Don't know how much the walkway along side the river from St Denys to Northam cost, but it is a brilliant , and undoubtedly a far better use of public money,per pound, than the £33 bn that the toffs want spending so that they get back to the shire constituencies 20 mins quicker.

 

I would love to see HST all over the UK, but there are far far more important calls on public money.

 

Bingo! I know many people (having grown up down there) that would use that rail link rather than suffer the bloody A326 every day! Better for the environment too.

[Sour Mash]

Well, I'd like to think that we'd be out of the crisis by 2026! Construction doesn't begin until 2016. The spending is spread out over more than a decade. It's not one big hit, and we desperately need the upgrade.

 

I never said the crisis is already over, just that it should be over and receding by the time construction begins and certainly over within the decade.

Why do we "desperately need the upgrade"?

[TopGun]

I'm in favour for reasons nobody has mentioned.

 

The emphasis of HS2 is based on speed which is wrong, it is the extra capacity that counts for passengers and freight.

 

The new line will be an additional line that supplements the existing WCML. That means a huge opening of load capacity for three groups - high speed passengers on HS2; local commuters on the classic WCML; and freight on the WCML.

 

The new line will be passenger only which will enable longer and more frequent freight trains on the classic line. Freight is currently limited to paths that do not impede the Pendolinos which travel 60mph quicker than the freight tains can. That will help take loads of freight off the roads meaning less road congestion and lower CO2 emissions. It will also stimulate investment into rail freight hubs bringing thousands of additional jobs. More efficient freight means lower end costs to supermarket customers too.

 

The new line will assist with the current air traffic congestion problems at Heathrow as London-bound passengers will have an additional option to fly to Birmingham International (and eventually Manchester) and then take HS2 for less than a hour into London. That's as good as Heathrow, Gatwick or Stanstead into London.

 

These huge benefits simply are not recognised and calculated in by most people who see no further than a few minutes off a train journey time. I recommend people listen to Professor David Begg, probably the UK's foremost transport academic. He makes a compelling business case that puts the facile arguments of the antis in their place most thoroughly.

Edited 12 January, 2012 by TopGun

[badgerx16]

The interesting thing is that Georgie Porgie isn't actually going to pay for it anyway, he is supposed to be working on a way to 'persuade' the Local Government pension schemes to 'invest' ( cough ! ) their funds against Government issued 'Infrastructure Bonds'.

[ringwood]

The recent rail ticket prices were blamed on the government cutting the amount of investment. So if it really is such a good deal then private investment will see it as an opportunity to make money and will fund the build?

 

nah didn't think so, how long will it take the Chunnel to pay for itself?

[Sour Mash]

I'm in favour for reasons nobody has mentioned.

 

The emphasis of HS2 is based on speed which is wrong, it is the extra capacity that counts for passengers and freight.

 

The new line will be an additional line that supplements the existing WCML. That means a huge opening of load capacity for three groups - high speed passengers on HS2; local commuters on the classic WCML; and freight on the WCML.

 

The new line will be passenger only which will enable longer and more frequent freight trains on the classic line. Freight is currently limited to paths that do not impede the Pendolinos which travel 60mph quicker than the freight tains can. That will help take loads of freight off the roads meaning less road congestion and lower CO2 emissions. It will also stimulate investment into rail freight hubs bringing thousands of additional jobs. More efficient freight means lower end costs to supermarket customers too.

 

The new line will assist with the current air traffic congestion problems at Heathrow as London-bound passengers will have an additional option to fly to Birmingham International (and eventually Manchester) and then take HS2 for less than a hour into London. That's as good as Heathrow, Gatwick or Stanstead into London.

 

These huge benefits simply are not recognised and calculated in by most people who see no further than a few minutes off a train journey time. I recommend people listen to Professor David Begg, probably the UK's foremost transport academic. He makes a compelling business case that puts the facile arguments of the antis in their place most thoroughly.

You can currently do Birmingham International to Euston in 1hr 12 mins. How many people use that as an option really?

[Joensuu]

If the resultant network is operated by the state, and fares subsidised more than cars are, I'm all for it. If it's run by a private company, with no direct competion, and no fare cap I'd be very concerned.

 

Overall, if well managed, this will be a brilliant boost to the UK, it will stimulate the UK economy, help reduce carbon emissionsm, and all for c. 1/4 of the annual cost of the Department of Work and Pensions. All in all, this is very much overdue.

[Amazing Hangover]

Whole thing is a farce.

 

We have the most expensive railways in the world, and I can only imagine that the top deck panoramic skylight restaurant thrusting executive banker triple platinum class seats will cost a bit. Although with a proposed journey time of 46 minutes from London to Brum, I can’t see how the thrusting executive bankers will have time to force down a foie gras baguette and half a bottle of warm Krug.

 

All it will do is convert Birmingham into another commuter town, like a larger version of Slough. Which to be fair, it is.

 

I don't know if anyone involved in this project has noticed the general state of our railways, or the prices forced on the captive commuters, or the lack of an east-west connection in the south.

 

19 billion is it? and 12 years? Hands up anyone who believes that these figures will be remotely accurate. But imagine what that amount could do spent on the current network, instead of knocking half an hour of one journey on one route. Plus screwing the countryside.

 

Insanity.

[SO16_Saint]

Just watching a doc on tv and the reason behind hs2 is due to the French developing a new TGV (AGV) and wanting to expand the network europe wide. The AGV is set to go 500km/h

[TopGun]

You can currently do Birmingham International to Euston in 1hr 12 mins. How many people use that as an option really?

 

There are no regular transatlantic flights into Birmingham Int currently. That would change.

[hamster]

I'm not even gonna read the op let alone the replies.

 

Of course it should get built, no debate, no enquiry, no appeal, no hanging around. Massive progressive project that will be a great legacy for generations to come.

 

 

It is somewhat ironic that the announcement was made on the anniversary of the first length of the London Underground. Without which London would not be the London that we all know, love and are rightly proud of.

 

Opposers are wannabe Beechingites.

 

Another irony is that I just read Jethro Tull's name mentioned researching another thread.

[Amazing Hangover]

I'm not even gonna read the op let alone the replies.

 

Of course it should get built, no debate, no enquiry, no appeal, no hanging around. Massive progressive project that will be a great legacy for generations to come.

 

 

It is somewhat ironic that the announcement was made on the anniversary of the first length of the London Underground. Without which London would not be the London that we all know, love and are rightly proud of.

 

Opposers are wannabe Beechingites.

 

Another irony is that I just read Jethro Tull's name mentioned researching another thread.

 

 

Nope. It is idiotic. What will it achieve? 30-40mins off London - Birmingham (maybe a bit more off of Manchester/Leeds if ever extended) but SO WHAT. Any travellers on this premium route (with prices to match, no doubt) will shave an hour off of their day if they happen to live in Birmingham and work in London.

 

The rest of the system is knackered. Cattle class does not fully describe Cambridge-Liverpool St. From where I live if you want to go to Oxford or any where vaguely west its via London.

 

And how will people get to this super-fast service? Connections? To achieve the speed presumably it wont stop, so no connections. And other trains will not be able to use the track for the same reason.

 

As usual, just trying to get people to the south east faster. Like I said Birmingham will become another commuter town. £19 Billion for that?

[Saintandy666]

Why do we "desperately need the upgrade"?

 

Capacity and infrastructure in the decades to come.

[The Cat]

Has it been explained where the £30 odd billion pounds it's costing is coming from?

[hamster]

So, one group protest cos it's in their back garden and another moans that it not near enough to them. Be more objective I say.

 

Come on people, where would civilisation / society be if the antis had got their way with stopping mechanised farming, what about those Romans and their straight roads, tarmaccadam, sanitation, THE WHEEL.

 

What was it Robert Zimmerman said? The times they are a changin', like it or not it's inevitable.

 

 

Anyway, times that 1 hour saving by a couple of mill (pax numbers) each year and you may just hear that penny drop.

[Saintandy666]

Has it been explained where the £30 odd billion pounds it's costing is coming from?

 

Yes. No extra money is spent at present, when crossrail finishes, the budget for crossrail will be transferred to HS2(about 2014ish), and then after that, there will be a slight increase in that over 10 years that hopefully our economy can sustain. It isn't one big hit or 'new' money at all, it's a continuation of rail investment and over a long period.

[hamster]

No disrespect but seriously, the money question is moot. Just like any megabucks project it is someone else's problem it really is.

 

Those protesting are doing so via a medium that 15 years ago they were set against too. I'm not being holier than thou here, hen I discovered my nippers secrey bought (lied about his age) Motorola charging under his bed way back when I went ape, now I can't leave the house without my iPhone, which incidentally is miles better than his crappy blackberry.

[Amazing Hangover]

No disrespect but seriously, the money question is moot. Just like any megabucks project it is someone else's problem it really is.

 

Those protesting are doing so via a medium that 15 years ago they were set against too. I'm not being holier than thou here, hen I discovered my nippers secrey bought (lied about his age) Motorola charging under his bed way back when I went ape, now I can't leave the house without my iPhone, which incidentally is miles better than his crappy blackberry.

 

 

Not being a Luddite or ye Nimby - I am all for investment in the railways. They desperately need it.

 

But think about who this scheme would benefit (and remember the 'benefit' is 30-40 minutes on a good day)

 

It WILL be very expensive. Basically populated by frazzled management consultants and thrusting young bankers enjoying 'the premium breakfast experience with menu designed by Heston on the upper deck' to pay back the massivley overshot budgets.

 

It's a one way track. We've been so indoctrinated that living in London and working in Birmingham is a massive ask. What it will be is Birmingham as new London commuter belt. Lovely.

 

In any case, if you are going to do this high speed thing it has to be London - Edinburgh with sensible connections.

 

Rather than another commuter line to make King's Heath the new Clapham

[hamster]

No hangover, take away your St Ives branch line, imagine it was never even laid and lovely St Ives (our favourite break destination fwiw) would be oh so different. This is not purely about people who are alive today, on the contrary, it is something that we are gifting to our children.

 

Trans Manche Link anyone?

 

We are but pebbles on the beach and we cannot pretend that King whatsisname can command the incoming tides. Go with the flow you'll find ita much less purturbing existence.