Cameron seeks independence referendum clarity for Scotland

[Tokyo-Saint]

The defence issue is a interesting one. A fully independent Scotland becmes a pretty small country in the grand scheme of things, with correspondingly minor armed forces to match. What happens when all those shipyard workers on the Clyde realise that they're out of a job when Royal Navy orders (such as they are) dry-up ? Much the same could be said about most RN, RAF and army bases north of the border - which are bound to close with serious implications for Scottish employment.

 

This is why the SNP has only limited public support for independance at his time. A stright 'yes or no' vote must return a 'no' vote because too many Scots have too much to lose.

 

There about another million other good reasons why the break up of the union would be a grave mistake for all Britions, but the economic arguments may be key.

 

Whose to say that they belong to England in the first place and they are not Scottish? Lets ignore the fact that there will be some agreement on defence as it is mutually beneficial to both countries for a moment. You have made the assumption that anything good or useful must be by default English. Scottish tax payers money helped to pay for the equipment in these bases the same as English and Welsh tax payers did. Most of the UK's nuclear defence systems are 'probably' located in Scotland. Should these weapons be moved down to England after the split? After all they must be English? Maybe Scotland can sell them to England or England can pay an annual amount to Scotland for defence?

 

It is this type of typically arrogant thinking that annoys the other countries in the union. Not all of the successes of the British army in history have been down to the English, don't forgot who captured Napoleon's standard and where it is held.

[Guided Missile]

Back to the Future -2314

 

The Salmond scheme was an unsuccessful attempt by the Kingdom of Scotland to become a independent nation by leaving the United Kingdom and establishing a currency, (the groat), initially based on an economy dominated by oil production. The Scottish Parliament, playing on the nationalist nostaligia prevelant at the time, used excessive public spending to gain support for their plans for independence and shortly after separating from the UK and with oil production in the North Sea subsequently collapsing, raised £20 billion in loans (£10.5 trillion in 2314 money) to build wind farms in an attempt to replace the loss of oil revenue. The removal of subsidies for wind power and the advent of cheap nuclear power from England and subsequently even cheaper power from nuclear fusion reactors based in Cumbria, meant that the wind farms never provided enough income to repay the loans and Scotland was forced to default on these loans, many from English institutions. The subsequent collapse of the groat, hyperinflation and food shortages throughout Scotland led to a revolt and a removal of the President of the Scottish parliament, Alex Salmond II, who was subsequently tried for treason, and executed in Edinburgh. The failure of the Salmond scheme left many Scottish businesses completely ruined and was an important factor in weakening their resistance to the Act of Reunion (established in 2054). Although the scheme failed, it has been seen as marking the beginning of the country's transformation into a nation, oriented towards modern business, based on technology and international co-operation, when many Scottish, educated by the state and who had deserted Scotland during the Salmond rule, returned home.

[trousers]

Whose to say that they belong to England in the first place and they are not Scottish? Lets ignore the fact that there will be some agreement on defence as it is mutually beneficial to both countries for a moment. You have made the assumption that anything good or useful must be by default English. Scottish tax payers money helped to pay for the equipment in these bases the same as English and Welsh tax payers did. Most of the UK's nuclear defence systems are 'probably' located in Scotland. Should these weapons be moved down to England after the split? After all they must be English? Maybe Scotland can sell them to England or England can pay an annual amount to Scotland for defence?

 

It is this type of typically arrogant thinking that annoys the other countries in the union. Not all of the successes of the British army in history have been down to the English, don't forgot who captured Napoleon's standard and where it is held.

 

Agree. It's just a shame that such fair-mindedness isn't often forthcoming the other way around either. Your average Scottish independence advocate will claim that North Sea Oil is Scottish by default. They will base that arguement purely on Geography and conveniently ignore the combined UK investment that has gone into North Sea Oil in the first place.

 

The quest for respect should be from both 'sides'.

[Ken Tone]

Whose to say that they belong to England in the first place and they are not Scottish? Lets ignore the fact that there will be some agreement on defence as it is mutually beneficial to both countries for a moment. You have made the assumption that anything good or useful must be by default English. Scottish tax payers money helped to pay for the equipment in these bases the same as English and Welsh tax payers did. Most of the UK's nuclear defence systems are 'probably' located in Scotland. Should these weapons be moved down to England after the split? After all they must be English? Maybe Scotland can sell them to England or England can pay an annual amount to Scotland for defence?

 

It is this type of typically arrogant thinking that annoys the other countries in the union. Not all of the successes of the British army in history have been down to the English, don't forgot who captured Napoleon's standard and where it is held.

 

Well I can't speak for Chapel, but my point is/was that an independent Scotland wil not be able to afford to maintain a decent defence force. It's not a matter of who gets what at first, but what you can afford to 'run' long term.

 

How many Scots who are in the Royal Navy etc, do you think will want to move their career into any tiny new Scottish armed forces? Even the UK struggles to keep up with the big boys. Can't see Scotland affording any type 45's. The armed forces of an independent Scotland would be tiny. No future in being in the army or navy there, and as for the cost of an air force...

 

There are only about 5 million people in Scotland remember, as opposed to c 57 million in the rest of the UK. Even dividing up assets as simply in that ratio would show how sillly the idea was.

 

Oh and yes of course the Scots have made a major contribution as members of the UK's armed forces. No one is denying that.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Whose to say that they belong to England in the first place and they are not Scottish? Lets ignore the fact that there will be some agreement on defence as it is mutually beneficial to both countries for a moment. You have made the assumption that anything good or useful must be by default English. Scottish tax payers money helped to pay for the equipment in these bases the same as English and Welsh tax payers did. Most of the UK's nuclear defence systems are 'probably' located in Scotland. Should these weapons be moved down to England after the split? After all they must be English? Maybe Scotland can sell them to England or England can pay an annual amount to Scotland for defence?

 

It is this type of typically arrogant thinking that annoys the other countries in the union. Not all of the successes of the British army in history have been down to the English, don't forgot who captured Napoleon's standard and where it is held.

 

 

I shouild take more care before accusing others of 'arrogance' when posting nonsense like this.

 

Although separate satistics for UK nations GDP are not recorded any reasonable anaylsis of the relative economic performance and population size of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdon of Great Britain & Northern Ireland will show that Scotland is a relativly junior partner in the union from both points of view. Hence any future division of UK defence assets would surely see a (very) clear majority of said assets heading south of the border in short order.

 

Population of UK from 2004 cenus:

 

England - 50m

Scotland - 5m

N Ireland - 1.7m

Wales - 3m

 

The relative size of each nation's population providing a handy 'rough and ready' guide to their respective economic power within the union. I can only hope you are now better informed Sir.

Edited 11 January, 2012 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[trousers]

I shouild take more care before accusing others of 'arrogance' when posting nonsense like this.

 

Although separate satistics for UK nations GDP are not recorded any reasonable anaylsis of the relative economic performance and population size of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdon of Great Britain & Northern Island will show that Scotland is a relativly junior partner in the union from both points of view. Hence any future division of UK defence assets would surely see a (very) clear majority of said assets heading south of the border in short order.

 

Population of UK from 2004 cenus:

 

England - 50m

Scotland - 5m

N Ireland - 1.7m

Wales - 3m

 

The relative size of each nation's population providing a handy 'rough and ready' guide to their respective economic power within the union. I can only hope you are now better informed Sir.

 

All of which probably accounts for the fact that c.75% of the Scottish electorate DID NOT vote for the SNP in the SCOTTISH elections last year.

 

The Scots are first to corw about CaMoron (*chortle*) not having a mandate in Westminster and yet hark on about their own equally tenuous mandate.

 

Pot. Kettle.

 

FFS

[moonraker]

Ireland might provide a useful comparator for the size of Armed Forces the Scots might need and could afford.

Full time personnel (three services) circa 12,000

Navy equipment 8 Patrol Vessels

Air Capability is a mixture of rotary and fixed wing totalling about 30 airframes, no combat aircraft, they also provide rotary wing support to the Police.

Army Equipments only one modern AFV the Mowag Piranha Armoured personnel carriers, they also have some scorpions.

The current Armed Forces of the United Kingdom are disproportionally represented by Scots circa 15% in some specialisations it much higher, this equates to 30,000 personnel so that’s another 18000 Scots out of work when they are replaced in the “Westminster” armed forces by Welsh, English and Northern Irish citizens.

This may be a very minor point in the great scheme of things but it does illustrate that opting for independence is not a simple solution that will suddenly free Scotland to achieve ever greater things. Additionally currently Salmond is supported by a broad church seeking independence. He may of seen off the Westminster Tories but if independence is achieved the SNP as it is currently constituted will implode and at least 2 new parties will be formed one holding to current left wing manifesto and a second more centralist if not right of centre party. There may not be many Tory MP’s in Scotland but there is a great deal of conservatism.

[Tokyo-Saint]

I shouild take more care before accusing others of 'arrogance' when posting nonsense like this.

 

Although separate satistics for UK nations GDP are not recorded any reasonable anaylsis of the relative economic performance and population size of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdon of Great Britain & Northern Ireland will show that Scotland is a relativly junior partner in the union from both points of view. Hence any future division of UK defence assets would surely see a (very) clear majority of said assets heading south of the border in short order.

 

Population of UK from 2004 cenus:

 

England - 50m

Scotland - 5m

N Ireland - 1.7m

Wales - 3m

 

The relative size of each nation's population providing a handy 'rough and ready' guide to their respective economic power within the union. I can only hope you are now better informed Sir.

 

Brunei has less than 400k people but produces 167000 barrels of oil each day. In 1999 6,000,000 barrels of oil was taken each day from the waters surrounding Scotland. My point simply being you cannot dismiss my argument as nonsense when your counter claim is based around countries with larger populations have better economies or contribute more to the economy. As you say, there is no data on each countries contribution to GDP but to base it on population is way off the mark. There are 9 million people living in Somalia does that mean they have a larger GDP or more "economic power" than Scotland?

 

In truth, as I said previously, it is an non argument as there will be a joint defence pact as part of the process. We even have an agreement with France so it would be crazy not to have one with Scotland, especially as most of the 'good stuff' is based up there. If not, then maybe it will work the Soviet way and there will be an arms grab on the day of the split. Scotland won't be able to maintain such a large defence force as Ken correctly highlighted, they would have to sell most of it on. I am sure there would be a few interested parties, perhaps Alex Salmon is looking up Yuri Orlov's number as we speak

[moonraker]

Something that has not been discusssed. If Scotland becomes and indpendent nation then it will not be a Member of the EU (Dune you might think about moving along with rest of UKIP), curerent membership is for the UK or Westminster led Governament/Nation. So is their a scenario where good old Pie Face becomes the first supreme leader, applies for membership to the EU and gets told to go away until he can demonstrate that he is in charge of a stable, finnacially responsible and healthy nation, meanwhile the hadrians wall is rebuilt, passport contol and immigration checks imposed and scotish born benefits dependents and criminals returend to their homeland. Even when they have demonstrated they are of suitable status to join the EU a Westminster PM (Tory) uses his veto.

 

There is also the irony that they object to be governed by Whitehall but are totally happy with being (partially) governed by Brussels.

Edited 11 January, 2012 by moonraker

[Ken Tone]

One aspectof this that the SNP seem to gloss over is that the concept of Scotland as a whole nation is itself a bit dubious historically. They talk as if a long-standing united country was subsumed or even subjugated, into the Uk in 1707 (?). Arguably there has never really been such an entity.

 

Although there have been kings of 'scotland' on and off from c1000 AD to 1700 AD, the early ones did not rule anything like as big an area as what we now call Scotland. There were separate independent countries in the Hedbrides and the Orkneys for example. Much of the south-East of scotland was separate until I think the 17th or 18th century For much of its history modern day Scotland was divided in bitter battles between highland and lowland. Even in the battle of Culloden, the 'English' side had many Scots fighting against the Jacobites.

 

Ironically, there is even a view that much of the current scottish nationalistic view developed from the romantic notion of Scotland encouraged by visits from the 'English' royal family in the 19th century -- Queen Victoria also.

 

Will Salmnod offer separate referendums to the Orkneys, to Dumfries & Galloway, to the Hebrides (are there still any 'Lords of the Isles' btw?)

Edited 11 January, 2012 by Ken Tone
typing

[alpine_saint]

Something that has not been discusssed. If Scotland becomes and indpendent nation then it will not be a Member of the EU (Dune you might think about moving along with rest of UKIP), curerent membership is for the UK or Westminster led Governament/Nation. So is their a scenario where good old Pie Face becomes the first supreme leader, applies for membership to the EU and gets told to go away until he can demonstrate that he is in charge of a stable, finnacially responsible and healthy nation, meanwhile the hadrians wall is rebuilt, passport contol and immigration checks imposed and scotish born benefits dependents and criminals returend to their homeland. Even when they have demonstrated they are of suitable status to join the EU a Westminster PM (Tory) uses his veto.

 

 

There is also the irony that they object to be governed by Whitehall but are totally happy with being (partially) governed by Brussels.

 

Indeed, it shouldnt make any difference to the hand-out gravy train. Just goes to show their independence movement is racially movtivated.

[trousers]

Brunei has less than 400k people but produces 167000 barrels of oil each day. In 1999 6,000,000 barrels of oil was taken each day from the waters surrounding Scotland. My point simply being you cannot dismiss my argument as nonsense when your counter claim is based around countries with larger populations have better economies or contribute more to the economy. As you say, there is no data on each countries contribution to GDP but to base it on population is way off the mark. There are 9 million people living in Somalia does that mean they have a larger GDP or more "economic power" than Scotland?

 

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

One aspectof this that the SNP seem to gloss over is that the concept of Scotland as a whole nation is itself a bit dubious historically. They talk as if a long-standing united country was subsumed or even subjugated, into the Uk in 1707 (?). Arguably there has never really been such an entity.

 

Although there have been kings of 'scotland' on and off from c1000 AD to 1700 AD, the early ones did not rule anything like as big an area as what we now call Scotland. There were separate independent countries in the Hedbrides and the Orkneys for example. Much of the south-East of scotland was separate until I think the 17th or 18th century For much of its history modern day Scotland was divided in bitter battles between highland and lowland. Even in the battle of Culloden, the 'English' side had many Scots fighting against the Jacobites.

 

Ironically, there is even a view that much of the current scottish nationalistic view developed from the romantic notion of Scotland encouraged by visits from the 'English' royal family in the 19th century -- Queen Victoria also.

 

Will Salmnod offer separate referendums to the Orkneys, to Dumfries & Galloway, to the Hebrides (are there still any 'Lords of the Isles' btw?)

 

I detect a fellow history fan in our midst !

 

If you go back in time as far as Edward I ('The Hammer of the Scots') Scotland was so irredeemably divided that Edward was called upon by the Sottish nobility to arbitrate on their royal succession - which he took to confirm that the King of England was thus their feudal overlord to which they must pay homage. This directly led to decades of bloody cross boarder warfare that cost the lives of countless thousands on both sides, and which still scar mutual relations on this isle to this day some might say.

 

Perhaps one of the greatest 'might have beens' in all of our long history occurred during this critical late 13th century period when Margret Maid of Norway, who (to cut a very long & complicated story short) was the heir to the Scots throne, was betrothed to wed Edward's son Edward of Caernarfon (the future Edward II) only for this 7 year old girl to tragically fall ill & die in the Orkney's while on her way from Norway. On such accidents of fate the course of history turns, and were it not for her untimely death then we might well have had a United Kingdom 400 years before The Acts of Union and the whole course of British History might have been radically different in ways it's quite impossible to know.

 

But I better stop wittering on about useless history lessons or I'll get told off again ......

[dune]

But I better stop wittering on about useless history lessons or I'll get told off again ......

 

What was it that Albus Dumbledore said?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

What was it that Albus Dumbledore said?

 

History is Bunk - or was that someone else

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

So once the English have got shot of the Scots, can we Londoners claim independence from the rest of you sponging gits?

 

I didn't have you down as a banker Verbal. Are you admitting the financial contribution made by the city to the rest of the country?

[Saintandy666]

One aspectof this that the SNP seem to gloss over is that the concept of Scotland as a whole nation is itself a bit dubious historically. They talk as if a long-standing united country was subsumed or even subjugated, into the Uk in 1707 (?). Arguably there has never really been such an entity.

 

Although there have been kings of 'scotland' on and off from c1000 AD to 1700 AD, the early ones did not rule anything like as big an area as what we now call Scotland. There were separate independent countries in the Hedbrides and the Orkneys for example. Much of the south-East of scotland was separate until I think the 17th or 18th century For much of its history modern day Scotland was divided in bitter battles between highland and lowland. Even in the battle of Culloden, the 'English' side had many Scots fighting against the Jacobites.

 

Ironically, there is even a view that much of the current scottish nationalistic view developed from the romantic notion of Scotland encouraged by visits from the 'English' royal family in the 19th century -- Queen Victoria also.

 

Will Salmnod offer separate referendums to the Orkneys, to Dumfries & Galloway, to the Hebrides (are there still any 'Lords of the Isles' btw?)

 

All nations can be found to be quite dubious though as all nations have to be built in the mind of the people who are from the so called nations. While people may pledge loyalty to certain nations now, in 200 years time it will be a different set of nations. Nations can be built and can be unbuilt over time. But I guess if people born in the area we call Scotland feel 'Scottish', I guess the History or build up of it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

[Saintandy666]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/11/alistair-darling-charles-kennedy-scottish-independence

 

- Salmond claims that as 90% of oil would be in 'Scottish waters', they should get 90% of oil revenues.

- Also says that debt burden should be equal to population percentage, i.e 8%.

[alpine_saint]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/11/alistair-darling-charles-kennedy-scottish-independence

 

-

Salmond claims that as 90% of oil would be in 'Scottish waters', they should get 90% of oil revenues.

- Also says that debt burden should be equal to population percentage, i.e 8%.

 

He needs to do his maths better if he thinks independence is going to work then, because even if England let them have 90% of the oil revenue (yeah, right, even if England does which means turning its back on infrastructure investment, which will NEVER happen, the revenue level is now ca 50% of what it was in the late 90s), they will never clear their debt burden and maintain anywhere near the current level of public services. And they will have to reapply for EU membership AND be forced to join the Euro as a consequence, leading to their economic policy being dictated by Berlin rather than Westminster.

 

Are the Turkeys really going to vote for Xmas, the f**king eejits ???

 

The numbers simply dont add up you pie-eating dullard.

[moonraker]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/11/alistair-darling-charles-kennedy-scottish-independence

 

-

Salmond claims that as 90% of oil would be in 'Scottish waters', they should get 90% of oil revenues.

- Also says that debt burden should be equal to population percentage, i.e 8%.

 

The Debt burden should in part be linked to those banks that caused the greatest damage i.e. RBS and HBOS - now in which country are they? Before the crash Salmond was championing these failures as virtues of Scottish success and enterprise, haven't heard much mention of them as part of his great economic plan lately. He is a nothing if not a great opportunist who has capitalised on the Scots understandable dissatisfaction with both the Tory and Labour Governments.

[alpine_saint]

The Debt burden should in part be linked to those banks that caused the greatest damage i.e. RBS and HBOS - now in which country are they? Before the crash Salmond was championing these failures as virtues of Scottish success and enterprise, haven't heard much mention of them as part of his great economic plan lately. He is a nothing if not a great opportunist who has capitalised on the Scots understandable dissatisfaction with both the Tory and Labour Governments.

 

Spot on. Here in Austria in recent times we had someone similar called Jörg Haider, and his brand of nationalism is utterly revilled on the international scene. Dont see how putting a skirt and a funny ginger wig on makes it more respectable.

[trousers]

I understand Paxman likened Salmond to Robert Mugabe on Newsnight last night. Didn't see it but sounds like quality entertainment!

[Verbal]

I understand Paxman likened Salmond to Robert Mugabe on Newsnight last night. Didn't see it but sounds like quality entertainment!

 

Missed that. Sounds like a Robin Day/John Nott moment.

[trousers]

He actually mockingly calls him "Moses" in his introduction.... :-)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akfN7bO_2Bc

[Special K]

Mugabe? Moses? It's a easy mistake to make.

[trousers]

So, Salmond wants a "fair share" of all UK assets, like gold. I assume he would apply that philosophy consistently to other UK assets, such as oil fields for example....?

[trousers]

BBC News (UK) @BBCNews

Question proposed for Scottish independence referendum: "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"

 

I wonder what the question will be for the referendum put to the UK people as a whole...?

[alpine_saint]

heheheh. that interview between Paxo and Pie-Face is hillarious.

 

Paxo was just taking the p*ss. Especially loved the question about how to get the 24 tons of gold back to Scotland.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I watched it last night and thought that Salmond came over pretty well. There are plenty of hard hitting questions Paxo could have asked, comparing him to Mugabe was just childish and pointless.

 

Much better were the questions raised in the piece shown before the interview. Said that in 07 the Euro commission had ruled that new Countries had to reapply for membership of the EU. New members HAVE to join the Euro. The other point was that if they did manage to stay in the EU and use Sterling, the BOE would be setting interest rates with England, Wales and NI's needs in mind and they may not be in Scotland's interests (at presents rates are set taking the whole of the UK's needs into account). Also who would be the lender of last resort for the Scottish Banks, which the BOE is at present.

 

Scoring cheap points about how gold is going to be transported lets Salmond off the hook over the major questions that need answering.

[buctootim]

I watched it last night and thought that Salmond came over pretty well. There are plenty of hard hitting questions Paxo could have asked, comparing him to Mugabe was just childish and pointless.

 

Much better were the questions raised in the piece shown before the interview. Said that in 07 the Euro commission had ruled that new Countries had to reapply for membership of the EU. New members HAVE to join the Euro. The other point was that if they did manage to stay in the EU and use Sterling, the BOE would be setting interest rates with England, Wales and NI's needs in mind and they may not be in Scotland's interests (at presents rates are set taking the whole of the UK's needs into account). Also who would be the lender of last resort for the Scottish Banks, which the BOE is at present.

 

Scoring cheap points about how gold is going to be transported lets Salmond off the hook over the major questions that need answering.

 

Good post. My thought exactly. Its right that Paxman should ask the tough questions, but he didnt really do that. Imo he showed a personal bias, which may have actually backfired and made the pro union case look trivial.

[trousers]

Good post. My thought exactly. Its right that Paxman should ask the tough questions, but he didnt really do that. Imo he showed a personal bias, which may have actually backfired and made the pro union case look trivial.

 

I'm trusting that the Scottish people are more intelligent than to let the likes of Paxman influence what they vote for....

[Lord Duckhunter]

I'm trusting that the Scottish people are more intelligent than to let the likes of Paxman influence what they vote for....

 

But he could of put Salmond under pressure and how he reacted to the important questions could help people form their opinions. The questions he asked were pretty pathetic really.

 

Much better was Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics today. Asked a SNP spokesman about this "advisory" vote they want to have, (as even the SNP accept that independence is not a deloved issue). Neil got the SNP man to admitt that they would have the vote before all the legal and other questions had been answered and that they would then negotiate with the UK to leave, without having another (this time) binding vote after all the issues were sorted.

 

In effect, they would be voting for indepence before they knew whether they had to rejoin the EU, before knowing what their currency was going to be and before knowing what portion on the UK's debt's and assetts they would have to take on. Neil said surely a second vote should be held once the talks had finalised a deal, but the guy said no. A very important point,that will effect the way people vote. It was eased out of the SNP by tough questioning. That is what Paxo should be doing.

[alpine_saint]

Sorry, but I dont see Paxman as a serious journo anymore. He's become a caracature of himself, and is simply light entertainment. His line of questioning of Pie-Face was f**king hillarious. Salmond was all geared up for an intellectual battle, and he got Paxo comparing him to Mugabe and asking how to transport 24 tons of gold back to Scotland, then taking the p*ss when Pie-Face implied it might stay in a vault at the Bank of ENGLAND.

 

Pure comic genius. If you want Pie-Face dissected, suggest you go elsewhere.

[Saintandy666]

I don't like the question - Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country?

It's bias.... it should be just...

 

'Should Scotland be an Independent country?'

[Viking Warrior]

Yes it is a biased and cleverly worded question. A rumour starting to do the rounds is that only scots living in Scotland at the time will only be allowed to vote . Not sure if that is true but the English will not be allowed to even though they are loving here . A further rumour is that's scots living in england will be allowed to vote including Scottish westminsterb mp.?. I hope the rumours are a load of bollixs

[trousers]

I don't like the question - Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country?

It's bias.... it should be just...

 

'Should Scotland be an Independent country?'

 

Or....'should Scotland separate from the UK?'

 

Or, use the same phraseology that was used for the Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum in 1973: "Do you want Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom?"

[trousers]

Anyway, when will they be holding the referendum for the rest of the UK citizens?

 

All we've heard about thus far is the Scottish people's right to vote on the break up of the UK....

[trousers]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2091820/If-Mr-Cameron-fails-stand-devious-slippery-Alex-Salmond-end-Union-wretched-legacy.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[Saintandy666]

Or....'should Scotland separate from the UK?'

 

Or, use the same phraseology that was used for the Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum in 1973: "Do you want Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom?"

 

I like your Do you want Scotland to remain part of the UK? question, but I dunno if I like 'you' being part of the question, too emotive... Should Scotland remain part of the United Kingdom? Maybe... or is that missing the point as it is all about independence and maybe too negative the other way? But I guess that or 'Should Scotland be an independent country? will do... but no 'you' and no 'agree' or 'disagree'.

Edited 26 January, 2012 by Saintandy666

[buctootim]

Any question where objectivity is important must should avoid a 'yes' or 'no' answer - especially a "Do you agree that...?". Humans are very suggestable because we like to agree with others and would rather say 'yes' than 'no'. Its a well known human trait that skews badly drafted (or deliberately biased) market research or referendums. All kinds of other adjectives would impact on the results as well - referendum questions containing the phrases 'separate from' and 'leave' the UK would hit the independence vote. Phrases like 'be independent' would help it. Its hard to draft truly unbiased questions.

[pap]

Telegraph article.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9541844/No-SNP-separate-Scotland-EU-plan-until-2013.html

 

Apparently, one of Salmond's key assumptions, that Scotland would immediately be part of the EU because it has been part of Britain, is a load of crap.

 

Miguel Barroso has stated that an independent Scotland would have to apply like any other member state. Terms probably won't be as good either - the UK has managed to secure a lot of opt-outs on stuff like the Schengen agreement because of its relative importance in the Union.

 

Guess Scotland are starting to find out what being a 5million person country is really all about.

[Thedelldays]

Yep

 

And how long before the locals start to royally kick off when they have to pay for things that they currently get subsidised for being part of the UK

[Frank's cousin]

Yep

 

And how long before the locals start to royally kick off when they have to pay for things that they currently get subsidised for being part of the UK

 

Would be a ****er for sure... The problem with this deate is that you need to seperate the attitude of Salmond and the SNP with that of most Scots - and the fact that most Scots will hopefully continue to have their current attitudes in 2014 - Salmond as others have said is an opportunist and is motivated by self rule as a reaction to some of the decisions made in Westminster that impacted on Scotland prior to devolution - and I susoect he also does harbour some anti-English dislike despite his claims that he does not - its clear from his smarmy chubby tw atish grin whenever that question comes up. BUt he is smart. As they they do not underestimate the enemy - with teh anniversary of Bannockburn, and the Commonwealth Games in 2014 he playing a reasonable hand - ironically during the Olympics most in Scotland were proud to be both Scottish AND British - it unified...Salmond remained very quiet as the few pathetic utterance about Scottish medals made him look like the opportunist idiot he is - but he wll undoudtedly gain some support when these cultural milestones increase the local sense of national pride... I just hope, folk recognize that there is nothing wrong is celebrating regional success and culture, AND being part of the Union - and salmon knows his best chance is to canvas the naiviety of Youth with his idea for making the ref. open to all over 16...

 

The economics dont stack up, the parctical costs would be huge, be it infrastructure and civil services, Tax, passports, health, defence etc.... shifting those to independent services North of the border is not a cheap undertaking - Thing is he may be a misguided fool, but he is not an idiot and he has 'credible' answers to alot of these issues - not that stand up to scrutiny, but strong ennough to convince some... as many Scots wont go into that level of detailed analysis...

 

Just wish he would dissapppear up his own arsehole

[Tokyo-Saint]

Does that mean that England would be out of the EU as well?

 

Suddenly dune joins the SNP...

[alpine_saint]

Telegraph article.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9541844/No-SNP-separate-Scotland-EU-plan-until-2013.html

 

Apparently, one of Salmond's key assumptions, that Scotland would immediately be part of the EU because it has been part of Britain, is a load of crap.

 

Miguel Barroso has stated that an independent Scotland would have to apply like any other member state. Terms probably won't be as good either - the UK has managed to secure a lot of opt-outs on stuff like the Schengen agreement because of its relative importance in the Union.

 

Guess Scotland are starting to find out what being a 5million person country is really all about.

 

Oh absolutely.

 

For a start, ALL new members have to agree a timetable to adopt the Euro. All this stuff about retaining the pound is complete b*ll*cks.

 

Salmond has either not done his homework and is purely playing the childish, chip-on-shoulder Braveheart ticket, which I suspect the Scottish people will eventually tire of, or he thinks he is playing a very canny game of brinkmanship which will result in having more cake and eating it, virtual independence with all the perks of being in the UK.

 

He is a racist pig, and his pettiness over supporting Team GB won him no favours, nor has his decision to switch one of his more competent ministers Nicola Stugeon from Minister for Health to Minister for Independence, which has given the signal that his pet project is more important than the people's health.

 

The UK Goverment must insist that the referendum is a simple "yes" or "no", since there is no way Pie-Face will win that. It will also end his political career.

[alpine_saint]

Would be a ****er for sure... The problem with this deate is that you need to seperate the attitude of Salmond and the SNP with that of most Scots - and the fact that most Scots will hopefully continue to have their current attitudes in 2014 - Salmond as others have said is an opportunist and is motivated by self rule as a reaction to some of the decisions made in Westminster that impacted on Scotland prior to devolution - and I susoect he also does harbour some anti-English dislike despite his claims that he does not - its clear from his smarmy chubby tw atish grin whenever that question comes up. BUt he is smart. As they they do not underestimate the enemy - with teh anniversary of Bannockburn, and the Commonwealth Games in 2014 he playing a reasonable hand - ironically during the Olympics most in Scotland were proud to be both Scottish AND British - it unified...Salmond remained very quiet as the few pathetic utterance about Scottish medals made him look like the opportunist idiot he is - but he wll undoudtedly gain some support when these cultural milestones increase the local sense of national pride... I just hope, folk recognize that there is nothing wrong is celebrating regional success and culture, AND being part of the Union - and salmon knows his best chance is to canvas the naiviety of Youth with his idea for making the ref. open to all over 16...

 

The economics dont stack up, the parctical costs would be huge, be it infrastructure and civil services, Tax, passports, health, defence etc.... shifting those to independent services North of the border is not a cheap undertaking - Thing is he may be a misguided fool, but he is not an idiot and he has 'credible' answers to alot of these issues - not that stand up to scrutiny, but strong ennough to convince some... as many Scots wont go into that level of detailed analysis...

 

Just wish he would dissapppear up his own arsehole

 

Good post, frank.

[pap]

Oh absolutely.

 

For a start, ALL new members have to agree a timetable to adopt the Euro. All this stuff about retaining the pound is complete b*ll*cks.

 

Salmond has either not done his homework and is purely playing the childish, chip-on-shoulder Braveheart ticket, which I suspect the Scottish people will eventually tire of, or he thinks he is playing a very canny game of brinkmanship which will result in having more cake and eating it, virtual independence with all the perks of being in the UK.

 

He is a racist pig, and his pettiness over supporting Team GB won him no favours, nor has his decision to switch one of his more competent ministers Nicola Stugeon from Minister for Health to Minister for Independence, which has given the signal that his pet project is more important than the people's health.

 

The UK Goverment must insist that the referendum is a simple "yes" or "no", since there is no way Pie-Face will win that. It will also end his political career.

 

I've been all over the Union, and around Ireland too. The striking thing, once you forget about national boundaries, is the cultural similarity across the inhabitants of the two islands. The main thing that changes is the accent, although Ireland does have a lot of things that are a big deal there and nowhere else, such as Gaelic sports.

 

Point is, I don't really see the benefits of independence for Scotland, especially if one of their first objectives is to surrender sovereignty to the EU.

[alpine_saint]

Point is, I don't really see the benefits of independence for Scotland, especially if one of their first objectives is to surrender sovereignty to the EU.

 

This is a logical argument, but in reality it isnt like that.

 

Both Eire and the UK are members of the EU, both are Maastricht and Lisbon signatories. Why didnt that deflate the Troubles in Ulster ? I am sure its not down to opt-outs in Schengen or the Euro.

 

Sadly, the flag issue really matters.

[trousers]

http://rightwinghome.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/magician-alex-salmond-gets-telling-off.html

[pap]

http://rightwinghome.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/magician-alex-salmond-gets-telling-off.html

 

That was an interesting read, trousers.

 

They really haven't thought this through. I like this bit:-

 

But back to when the cracks show. Things haven’t been going awfully well for Mr. Salmond and his militant nationalists recently. Firstly, George Osborne revealed that an independent Scotland might not be able to keep the Pound Sterling. He reasoned – unusual for him – that if Scotland kept the Pound Sterling it would mean Britain becoming a ‘Sterling Zone’, a monetary union, just like the ‘Eurozone’. Thankfully, Mr. Osborne has been listening to the news, so he has quickly concluded that the Eurozone has proven that monetary union without full political and economic union – fiscal union – doesn’t work. It has been a disaster for the Eurozone countries, and it would be a disaster for Britain too.