Cameron seeks independence referendum clarity for Scotland

[pap]

You often ask posters to read what you wrote, and I'd appreciate the same. I did state my first passport, and as I'm now 58, then even a Scouser, should be able to work out, that this is not my current passport. Yes, I'm proud to say I'm English, is that a crime? we are being forced into accepting that we are British, yet the Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish, are exactly that, so why can't we be English. It's liberal thinking bleading hearts like you, who say different, and our weak minded MP's go along with it.

 

As for the Redhair, wrong, certainly for the last two hundred years anyway, and if there was celtic blood, then it would be Welsh, given where my ancesters originated from.

 

Yeah, I did see the first passport bit, but it's not really relevant to the situation right now.

 

Nor does that have any bearing on how I self-identify. Like yourself, I'd say I was English instead of British - but I normally save that for

 

a) when I'm abroad

b) when I'm asked

 

So I'm not actually saying different. I'm just pointing out that "England" doesn't cover the political entity that will be left in the event of a Scottish yes vote, and that Great Britain is probably not going to be usable in an official capacity.

 

As for not reading your post, I did. Just didn't make a great deal of sense in the context of the question I was posing.

[trousers]

[pap]

 

Nice vid trousers.

[trousers]

Sit back and enjoy the pathetic machinations of a dying Union... Scotland has her bags packed... Meanwhile England are on their knees begging us to stay and like the abusive partner promising they will change! Taxi!!!

 

And so it begins....

[dune]

Nice vid. Can't wait to return to our colony of gibraltar again this year as part of another tour of the region including jerez, seville, cordoba and Jaen.

[trousers]

[video=youtube_share;YJDRfUJ2Qhk]http://youtu.be/YJDRfUJ2Qhk

[trousers]

[Ken Tone]

666 said on here yesterday that English students living in Scotland, planning to go to Scottish Unis, dont have to pay fees.

 

That's correct . 'Ordinarily resident', ie not just owning a holiday home, for at least 3 years beofre going to uni. Worthwhile anyone with teenaged kids living and working in say Berwick or Carlisle thinking very carefully about moving across the border and commuting to work instead.

[Ken Tone]

Yep, just read that in the comments on the Guardian article posted above.

But that doesn't feel quite right to me. Surely something as emotive as 'nationalism' should be decided by those who have said nation 'in their blood and/or hearts' rather than something as aribitrary as where they happen to live at a given moment in time?

Isn't that what the SNP ethos is all about? i.e. it's all about the Scottish people and what they want as a nation?

Yes, I know that there will be non-Scots who have moved to Scotland and now count themselves as Scottish as a natural Scot does but, if I was Scottish I would question the logic of non-Scottish people having a say IF it was decided that the UK as a whole didn't get a say.

 

Reminds me of a Jo Caulfied routine where she talks of how passionately her Scottish husband loves his country and all things Scottish ... but just not enough to actually live there of course.

Ditto Sean Japanese-whisky-is-good Connery!

[Saintandy666]

Nations are entirely a psychological phenomenon. In my opinion, it is rather silly and dangerous to be too proud of the geographical land from which you hail. Nationalism taken too far can lead to nasty events. Obviously, I am glad I live in Britain as it is a great place to live on a whole, but if humans as a whole concentrated a bit more on worldwide issues rather than which geographical area of land to be born on is the best and what areas should be run by people born in certain places, perhaps some major problems would not be so.

 

Though that is a little bit off topic as Scottish nationalism is more a cultural thing, and not jingoistic at all.

[Wes Tender]

I wouldn't be that bothered if Scotland were to leave the Union as things stand currently. I was happy with the situation up to the time that they, the Welsh and NI, got devolved powers through their own assemblies/parliaments. Now with the farcical situation typified by the "West Lothian question", either we get our own Parliament consisting solely of English MPs, or they can all go to hell. When the West Lothian question was asked by Tam Dalyell, he wondered how long we English would tolerate 119 MPs from Scotland, Wales and NI exercising power to influence policy affecting England, when English MPs had no powers to influence the same matters in those countries. And that was in 1977! Let them all raise their own taxes to pay for their costly social policies, but as we have no say in the matter, let them kiss goodbye to their subsidies, the largest part of which are paid for by English taxpayers.

[trousers]

Nations are entirely a psychological phenomenon. In my opinion, it is rather silly and dangerous to be too proud of the geographical land from which you hail. Nationalism taken too far can lead to nasty events. Obviously, I am glad I live in Britain as it is a great place to live on a whole, but if humans as a whole concentrated a bit more on worldwide issues rather than which geographical area of land to be born on is the best and what areas should be run by people born in certain places, perhaps some major problems would not be so.

 

Though that is a little bit off topic as Scottish nationalism is more a cultural thing, and not jingoistic at all.

 

Hmmm....let me introduce you to some of my less 'cultured' Scottish friends on Facebook... ;-)

 

Agree with you views on nationalism though. It is indeed an arbitrary concept.

[Guided Missile]

Let them all raise their own taxes to pay for their costly social policies, but as we have no say in the matter, let them kiss goodbye to their subsidies, the largest part of which are paid for by English taxpayers.

The problem with the so called "Devolution Max", is that the SNP are proposing they cut Corporation Tax, whilst retaining sterling. The Bank of England will be in charge of their borrowing costs, so they only have to see what has happened to the countries like Greece, Ireland and Portugal, to see where that road leads. Without fiscal independence, they will have no effective control over borrowing costs. Citigroup has already warned their clients not to invest in Scotland, in case they gain independence, which is hardly a ringing endorsement for a future Scottish currency.

 

They're on the road to ruin and not for the first time. Like the Irish, they'll be back to us for a bail out, just as they were in the 17th century, which forced them into the Act of Union. (see the Darien scheme)

[dune]

The problem with the so called "Devolution Max", is that the SNP are proposing they cut Corporation Tax, whilst retaining sterling. The Bank of England will be in charge of their borrowing costs, so they only have to see what has happened to the countries like Greece, Ireland and Portugal, to see where that road leads. Without fiscal independence, they will have no effective control over borrowing costs. Citigroup has already warned their clients not to invest in Scotland, in case they gain independence, which is hardly a ringing endorsement for a future Scottish currency.

 

They're on the road to ruin and not for the first time. Like the Irish, they'll be back to us for a bail out, just as they were in the 17th century, which forced them into the Act of Union. (see the Darien scheme)

 

Cheers for posting that. This is just the sort of argument that the canny Scots will take on board. As a race of people they are not daft and they will not cut off their noses to spite their faces and vote to go alone. I am confident of this.

 

Much like with the AV referendum we will be victorious and put this matter to bed for another generation.

[Viking Warrior]

For the attention of the troll . We are not scroungers up here etc as you suggest . Don't taint everyone with the same brush. Maybe we should have a commemorative servos for the 700 year anniversary alps

[Saintandy666]

Salmond is nuts if he thinks Westminster would allow him to use the pound as an independent country while simultaneously lowering corporation tax to compete with us.

Edited 10 January, 2012 by Saintandy666

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The peoples of these islands we share have been through so much together since the founding of the Union that there's now far more to unite us than there can ever be to divide us again. United by monarchy, by geography, centuries of shared history and a common language, I can see no good purpose whatsoever in consigning our union to the dustbin of history for reasons that make no sense at all to this proud Britain. I can't even imagine why anyone in their right mind would even consider such a act of sheer folly.

 

We built the greatest empire the world will ever see together. In victory and defeat our blood flowed together over the killing fields of the Somme and deep in the awful mud of Passendale. In 1940 we stood together as one against the evils of dictatorship when all else failed, and at the final reckoning we were triumphant together.

 

I say our union is our strength, and to throw it all away now would diminish us all.

[Saintandy666]

The peoples of these islands we share have been through so much together since the founding of the Union that there's now far more to unite us than there can ever be to divide us again. United by monarchy, by geography, centuries of shared history and a common language, I can see no good purpose whatsoever in consigning our union to the dustbin of history for reasons that make no sense at all to this proud Britain. I can't even imagine why anyone in their right mind would even consider such a act of sheer folly.

 

We built the greatest empire the world will ever see together. In victory and defeat our blood flowed together over the killing fields of the Somme and deep in the awful mud of Passendale. In 1940 we stood together as one against the evils of dictatorship when all else failed, and at the final reckoning we were triumphant together.

 

I say our union is our strength, and to throw it all away now would diminish us all.

 

While all the history is extremely grand and interesting, it's hardly relevant to current situation. Yes, it is why we are where we are today. The past formulates the present, but that doesn't mean we should be locked into the past unable to change direction. I don't think history and past bonds is a very convincing argument when Independence is about the future(and I'm against Scottish secession!).

[dune]

The peoples of these islands we share have been through so much together since the founding of the Union that there's now far more to unite us than there can ever be to divide us again. United by monarchy, by geography, centuries of shared history and a common language, I can see no good purpose whatsoever in consigning our union to the dustbin of history for reasons that make no sense at all to this proud Britain. I can't even imagine why anyone in their right mind would even consider such a act of sheer folly.

 

We built the greatest empire the world will ever see together. In victory and defeat our blood flowed together over the killing fields of the Somme and deep in the awful mud of Passendale. In 1940 we stood together as one against the evils of dictatorship when all else failed, and at the final reckoning we were triumphant together.

 

I say our union is our strength, and to throw it all away now would diminish us all.

 

I completely agree. Of course you will get naive youngsters who disregard our shared bonds, but for the more rational and mature Scots the old alliance of strength through unity remains strong.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

While all the history is extremely grand and interesting, it's hardly relevant to current situation. Yes, it is why we are where we are today. The past formulates the present, but that doesn't mean we should be locked into the past unable to change direction. I don't think history and past bonds is a very convincing argument when Independence is about the future(and I'm against Scottish secession!).

 

To order to know where you are going to, then surely it helps to know where you are coming from. A basic understanding of the long and remarkable history of the union and how it came into being - and just as importantly what went before it - is I would say an essential grounding in order to comprehend the true value of what is being put at risk her.

[Viking Warrior]

For the attention of the Alpine We are not scroungers up here etc as you suggest . Don't taint everyone with the same brush. Maybe we should have a commemorative servos for the 700 year anniversary alps

[Saintandy666]

To order to know where you are going to, then surely it helps to know where you are coming from. A basic understanding of the long and remarkable history of the union and how it came into being - and just as importantly what went before it - is I would say an essential grounding in order to comprehend the true value of what is being put at risk her.

 

Sometimes looking back to history can help, but not always. The world is a very different place to what it was even 50 years ago, let alone 300. I think it is better to look at all sources and use reason to come to a better solution. Clinging on to the past is not good, because more often than not evolution is necessary to survive. Even conservatives began to admit this by the 18th century such as the father of modern English conservatism, Edmund Burke - 'We must change in order to conserve' and 'A state without means of some change is a state without means of its preservation'. I think history can be important, but it is also important to prune out and forget bits that are no longer relevant and not to be too sentimental.

 

In words of a great man, Albus Dumbledore 'It does not do to dwell on dreams, and forget to live'. Sometimes history needs to be forgotten.

[Saintandy666]

I completely agree. Of course you will get naive youngsters who disregard our shared bonds, but for the more rational and mature Scots the old alliance of strength through unity remains strong.

 

Would you say our bonds are ethnic?

[alpine_saint]

Sometimes looking back to history can help, but not always. The world is a very different place to what it was even 50 years ago, let alone 300. I think it is better to look at all sources and use reason to come to a better solution. Clinging on to the past is not good, because more often than not evolution is necessary to survive. Even conservatives began to admit this by the 18th century such as the father of modern English conservatism, Edmund Burke - 'We must change in order to conserve' and 'A state without means of some change is a state without means of its preservation'. I think history can be important, but it is also important to prune out and forget bits that are no longer relevant and not to be too sentimental.

 

In words of a great man, Albus Dumbledore 'It does not do to dwell on dreams, and forget to live'. Sometimes history needs to be forgotten.

 

Jesus, using a Harry Potter book to justify an argument on the break up of the Union is the thin end of the wedge, mate.

[Saintandy666]

Jesus, using a Harry Potter book to justify an argument on the break up of the Union is the thin end of the wedge, mate.

 

Not at all. Read the quote... living in the past of what was or what could have been is no use if it means you can not progress. Better?! No Harry Potter quote there!

 

What about the rest of my post? Backed up by more 'respected thinkers'.

 

Edit: And I don't want the Union to break up, I just think the tradition argument is a poor one. In fact tradition in itself is a bad thing to cling too at all costs!

Edited 10 January, 2012 by Saintandy666

[aintforever]

It's about time us English got to vote on this issue, we would be better off without Scotland and Wales dragging us down.

 

The city of London is where the money is.

[Saintandy666]

It's about time us English got to vote on this issue, we would be better off without Scotland and Wales dragging us down.

 

The city of London is where the money is.

 

By that logic, as Verbal said earlier, should London just become an independent state? No, it's a ridiculous argument! Every area of the UK contributes in different ways.

[aintforever]

By that logic, as Verbal said earlier, should London just become an independent state? No, it's a ridiculous argument! Every area of the UK contributes in different ways.

 

As England's capital, London will always be part of England. As an important node in the global economic system we could benefit from it at the expense of the Scots and Welsh.

[dune]

In words of a great man, Albus Dumbledore 'It does not do to dwell on dreams, and forget to live'. Sometimes history needs to be forgotten.

 

You need to remember that and use it on Question Time. All the grown ups will be well impressed.

[Saintandy666]

You need to remember that and use it on Question Time. All the grown ups will be well impressed.

 

Selectively quote and ignore the large paragraph before that by all means.

 

Go on, argue back at me for once. I dare you! Your hero, Margaret Thatcher would agree with me on tradition. She had no time for it either.

[Viking Warrior]

It's interesting reading this thread especially those in England . It' doesn't appear to be a major talking point up here as far as I can see . Salmon is playing politics as he normally does I wish someone would wipe the smug look off his face together with that of spurgeon . The SNP has its followowers although I suspect sometime in the future labour will start to regain power in their usual heartlands. SNP have done some good but equally some daft stuff . They are currently messing with our life line ferries at the moment. Our Westminster mp and msp are having a right go at salmon and co. what will be will be I guess . From what I here from the Orkney jury as well as other areas depending on the referendum question is that it is unlikely to be a vote in favour of devolution . Things could change though depending on the global economy. It's not a case of bye bye England . Theres lots of complex issues to be considered for instance what does Scotland do about the armed forces . Do they rent them or create their own . Salmon has talked about pulling only Scottish soldiers out of afghan . What he has done is build a hospital for injured so scottish troops as he puts that onus on Westminster . I will keep an eye on things up here and keep you posted on events as they develop

Edited 10 January, 2012 by Viking Warrior

[dune]

Selectively quote and ignore the large paragraph before that by all means.

 

Go on, argue back at me for once. I dare you! Your hero, Margaret Thatcher would agree with me on tradition. She had no time for it either.

 

It was Albus's profound words that impressed me so much everything else became irrelevent. Do you think Albus was a better wizard than Gandalf?

[Saintandy666]

It was Albus's profound words that impressed me so much everything else became irrelevent. Do you think Albus was a better wizard than Gandalf?

 

Different worlds. Incomparable.

 

Now answer my points.

[dune]

Different worlds. Incomparable.

 

Now answer my points.

 

But they were both wizards. That said Gandalf the grey was less powerful than gandalf the white, so would you say Albus was more powerful than gandalf the grey, but less powerful than gandalf the white? I am torn on this.

[Saintandy666]

But they were both wizards. That said Gandalf the grey was less powerful than gandalf the white, so would you say Albus was more powerful than gandalf the grey, but less powerful than gandalf the white? I am torn on this.

 

I don't have much understanding of the world of LOTR in depth to the max, but I believe Gandalf is effectively a God/spirit sent to guide the people of middle earth in their fight against stuff like Sauron... but he can't use force himself or aid in the fight. I have no idea whether Gandalf the white is more powerful than Gandalf the grey, although he certainly more senior.

 

 

Now, back on to my point... answer my original points.

[dune]

I don't have much understanding of the world of LOTR in depth to the max, but I believe Gandalf is effectively a God/spirit sent to guide the people of middle earth in their fight against stuff like Sauron... but he can't use force himself or aid in the fight. I have no idea whether Gandalf the white is more powerful than Gandalf the grey, although he certainly more senior.

 

 

Now, back on to my point... answer my original points.

 

I think Gandalf the white was superior to Gandalf the grey, although I'm not sure why I think this. I can only assume that his fight with the demon and his victory over the demon imparted some of the demons power into him.

[Saintandy666]

I think Gandalf the white was superior to Gandalf the grey, although I'm not sure why I think this. I can only assume that his fight with the demon and his victory over the demon imparted some of the demons power into him.

 

Using some of my own knowledge and some of wikipedias knowledge I can tell you...

 

Well, there were 5 Istari or wizards sent to Middle Earth to guide its peoples against evil. 2 'blue' wizards, a 'brown' wizard, a 'grey' wizard and a 'white' wizard in that order of superiority.

 

Well, I believe Suraman lost his God given status as head of the white council of wizards when he turned to help Sauron (he dropped his white colour, donning a multi colours instead).

 

Gandalf was killed by the Balrog but was sent back as the 'white' wizard, more powerful than ever before to guide Frodo once more.

 

 

 

 

And there you go, though you are probably laughing at me right now, I take your failure to address my points on tradition as victory.

[dune]

Using some of my own knowledge and some of wikipedias knowledge I can tell you...

 

Well, there were 5 Istari or wizards sent to Middle Earth to guide its peoples against evil. 2 'blue' wizards, a 'brown' wizard, a 'grey' wizard and a 'white' wizard in that order of superiority.

 

Well, I believe Suraman lost his God given status as head of the white council of wizards when he turned to help Sauron (he dropped his white colour, donning a multi colours instead).

 

Gandalf was killed by the Balrog but was sent back as the 'white' wizard, more powerful than ever before to guide Frodo once more.

 

 

 

 

And there you go, though you are probably laughing at me right now, I take your failure to address my points on tradition as victory.

 

I would never laugh at you Andy.

[Saintandy666]

I would never laugh at you Andy.

 

Awwwww, thanks Duney

 

If only I could believe you.

[Saintandy666]

But back to the point of the thread, a lot of this hinges on the deal Salmond would be able to negotiate in the event of independence. If they get a 'crap' deal on debt and oil and what not, it could be disastrous.

[pap]

And continuing the point of the thread, Alex Salmond has announced his own timetable for the referendum. Autumn 2014.

[Frank's cousin]

Salmond might be a a bit of a prat (in my IMHO), but he aint completely stupid - if teh deal looks poor he wount take it too teh referendum as it would be self defeating. Interestingly, given that less than 30% od Scots are in favour at the current time, yet 40%+ of the English and going by the jingoistic London centric ****** on here, I am surprized more Scots dont want it - all this sheidt about 'cut them adrift and WE will be better off' - what next anything North of Stevenage? NO wonder the rest of the South and its London centric arrogance so feckin annnoying.

 

I suspect its a sign of the current harsher economic climes which always brings out Mr selfrighteous selfish white van man and his proclamations of Englishness 'uber alles'. ''If its not the dirty forieners stealling our jobs its the jocks and taffs bleeding us dry..... '' What a great attitude....

[Ken Tone]

It's interesting reading this thread especially those in England . It' doesn't appear to be a major talking point up here as far as I can see . Salmon is playing politics as he normally does I wish someone would wipe the smug look off his face together with that of spurgeon . The SNP has its followowers although I suspect sometime in the future labour will start to regain power in their usual heartlands. SNP have done some good but equally some daft stuff . They are currently messing with our life line ferries at the moment. Our Westminster mp and msp are having a right go at salmon and co. what will be will be I guess . From what I here from the Orkney jury as well as other areas depending on the referendum question is that it is unlikely to be a vote in favour of devolution . Things could change though depending on the global economy. It's not a case of bye bye England . Theres lots of complex issues to be considered for instance what does Scotland do about the armed forces . Do they rent them or create their own . Salmon has talked about pulling only Scottish soldiers out of afghan . What he has done is build a hospital for injured so scottish troops as he puts that onus on Westminster . I will keep an eye on things up here and keep you posted on events as they develop

 

I think there is something of a backlash growing in England over devolution, let alone independence. I do not know (does anyone?) where the truth lies in the cost argument. ie Would the income from north sea oil outweigh the flow of taxpayers money going north over the border? Is scotland a financial drain or a benefit to the UK? The truth of that is buried beneath political rhetoric.

 

However there is a definite perception, right or wrong, here in England that we are subsidising the scottish life-style.

 

I'm not sure if even Salmond himself really wants independence, as surely anyone with an ounce of sense can see that Scotland is too small to run its own defence and have a completely separate economy etc. The SNP, like UKIP, the Greens, etc, exist largely as one policy, one issue party. Nothing else binds them together as a party. If ever they were to achieve their aim, there'd be nothing left to unite them politically and they'd fall apart over normal everyday policy disagreements. If Scotland were ever to become independent, it would no longer need an SNP. Salmond would no longer need to exist in effect.

 

However there is a danger that the English will lose patience and be pushed into forcing the issue. Cameron's line with the Scots, is really only a variation on the old cliche "Be careful what you ask for, or you might actually get it."

Edited 11 January, 2012 by Ken Tone

[alpine_saint]

And continuing the point of the thread, Alex Salmond has announced his own timetable for the referendum. Autumn 2014.

 

He doesnt have the right to call a legally-binding election, or the format of the questions on it, though. That was established in the constitutional rules defined at the time of Scottish devolution. Only the British PM (or British parliament) has that. Apparently he can run an opinion poll whenever he wants though, including autumn 2014.

[alpine_saint]

I think there is something of a backlash growing in England over devolution, let alone independence. I do not know (does anyone?) where the truth lies in the cost argument. ie Would the income from north sea oil outweigh the flow of taxpayers money going north over the border? Is scotland a financial drain or a benefit to the UK? The truth of that is buried beneath political rhetoric.

 

However there is a definite perception, right or wrong, here in England that we are subsidising the scottish life-style.

 

I'm not sure if even Salmond himself really wants independence, as surely anyone with an ounce of sense can see that Scotland is too small to run its own defence and have a completely separate economy etc. The SNP, like UKIP, the Greens, etc, exist largely as one policy, one issue party. Nothing else binds them together as a party. If ever they were to achieve their aim, there'd be nothing left to unite them politically and they'd fall apart over normal everyday policy disagreements. If Scotland were ever to become independent, it would no longer need an SNP. Salmond would no longer need to exist in effect.

 

However there is a danger that the English will lose patience and be pushed into forcing the issue. Cameron's line with the Scots, is really only a variation on the old cliche "Be careful what you ask for, or you might actually get it."

 

Absolutely.

 

Cant believe Pie-Face really reckons he can get "devo-max" where Scotland keeps the pound but has the right to set lower corporation tax than England. Cheeky f**ker..

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The defence issue is a interesting one. A fully independent Scotland becmes a pretty small country in the grand scheme of things, with correspondingly minor armed forces to match. What happens when all those shipyard workers on the Clyde realise that they're out of a job when Royal Navy orders (such as they are) dry-up ? Much the same could be said about most RN, RAF and army bases north of the border - which are bound to close with serious implications for Scottish employment.

 

This is why the SNP has only limited public support for independance at his time. A stright 'yes or no' vote must return a 'no' vote because too many Scots have too much to lose.

 

There about another million other good reasons why the break up of the union would be a grave mistake for all Britions, but the economic arguments may be key.

[Ken Tone]

Of course if Scotland were independent, with inadequate independent defence, it would be very vulnerable to being taken over by a larger, more powerful country ..perhaps a neighbour. Oh hang on, that's what happened in 1700 or so.

 

If Scotland was not viable and defensible as an independent country in the 18th century how could it be now, when defence needs rather more equipment and financial clout than it did when all that was needed was a few brave highlanders with blue faces and big swords?

 

(Btw I actually like Scotland and most Scots I've met, and often spend holidays there!)

[trousers]

Well, that's a first.

 

Just watching Prime Minister's questions. Cameron and Milliband having a love-in over the Scottish inependence referendum.

 

Ok, it's obvious they were never going to disagree on this one but still a strange viewing experience!

[dune]

Just watching the obnoxious snp slimeballs at pmq. Thankfully (and wisely) David Cameron is rising above them. Cameron needs to do this because most Scots will want to make an informed decision and SNP rhetoric will not wash on such a big issue.

[trousers]

SNP rhetoric will not wash on such a big issue.

 

Not sure how representative they are of the Scottish public in general, but I know plenty of Scots who are being won over by said "SNP rhetoric"....quotes along the lines of: "I was undecided about independence before CaMoron's (*clever play on words chortle*) invervention but now I'm going to vote for independence because of that interferring Tory ****" (or words to that effect)