Cameron seeks independence referendum clarity for Scotland

[alpine_saint]

You are thinking of it at a simple face value level though. How the country is run is more complex than that and your solution could create greater constitutional crisis's than the current way. Don't settle for the crap solution, campaign for an actual proper working system involving the executive being the head of the state(i.e a UK-wide elected President) and then each area of the UK having it's own legislature to deal with internal affairs. That way there is no dogey 'two majority house' and no confusion over who is PM and who is the government.

 

I agree with you, but it takes time and requires political will for a full working solution. I have suggested (thought I made it clear) something that could take the heat out the situation in the meantime.

[Saintandy666]

I agree with you, but it takes time and requires political will for a full working solution. I have suggested (thought I made it clear) something that could take the heat out the situation in the meantime.

 

Oh, I understood that it was temporary situation, but it just wouldn't work especially with the current coalition government as the Tories would be able to rule with a majority on most votes. The Liberal Democrats would get annoyed, and join Labour in a vote of no confidence bringing the whole government down forcing a general election to be called within weeks(in my opinion).

[alpine_saint]

Oh, I understood that it was temporary situation, but it just wouldn't work especially with the current coalition government as the Tories would be able to rule with a majority on most votes. The Liberal Democrats would get annoyed, and join Labour in a vote of no confidence bringing the whole government down forcing a general election to be called within weeks(in my opinion).

 

Then Labour and the LibDems would get hammered by English voters at the polls for playing politics with an English issue by using British votes for a no-confidence vote.

 

So I dont think it would happen.

[Saintandy666]

Then Labour and the LibDems would get hammered by English voters at the polls for playing politics with an English issue by using British votes for a no-confidence vote.

 

So I dont think it would happen.

 

The coalition would cease to function on defence and foreign affairs though. Parliament would HAVE to fall apart and it wouldn't be playing politics at all, parliament would be deadlock and a constitutional hole. I'm not sure how the English would respond. I'd still vote Lib Dem.

[alpine_saint]

The coalition would cease to function on defence and foreign affairs though. Parliament would HAVE to fall apart and it wouldn't be playing politics at all, parliament would be deadlock and a constitutional hole. I'm not sure how the English would respond. I'd still vote Lib Dem.

 

No, I dont agree. If the likes of Clegg, Huhne, Hughes and Cable orchestrated a coallition collapse on the basis of English MPs voting on an English issue, they would cast their party into the political wilderness for a generation. Even they arent that stupid (I think).

[Saintandy666]

No, I dont agree. If the likes of Clegg, Huhne, Hughes and Cable orchestrated a coallition collapse on the basis of English MPs voting on an English issue, they would cast their party into the political wilderness for a generation. Even they arent that stupid (I think).

 

It wouldn't be orchestrated though. The coalition agreement which the parties have pledged to stick too would no longer be in function. The mandate which the British people gave Westminster in 2010 would be irrelevant as different voting blocs would be formed. A new election would be needed pronto so people could vote in light of the new 'rules' and even then, it'd still be a constitutional nightmare.

[buctootim]

This isn't even about growing up though, I've visted Scotland enough times and my family are Scottish and I've met enough Scottish people to know that the Scottish(from my experience) do not 'not like the English'.

 

tbf Andy, my Dad's family are from republican West Belfast. When we used go there at the height of the troubles everybody was very nice to us, even in the volunteers club my cousin thought it would be 'interesting' for us to visit (albeit very suspicious and had us checked out). Family and politics are usually kept separate.

[alpine_saint]

It wouldn't be orchestrated though. The coalition agreement which the parties have pledged to stick too would no longer be in function. The mandate which the British people gave Westminster in 2010 would be irrelevant as different voting blocs would be formed. A new election would be needed pronto so people could vote in light of the new 'rules' and even then, it'd still be a constitutional nightmare.

 

Are you serious ? If the leaders of the three parties plus the SNP came together and agreed to separate the voting on regional vs Union issues in the name of taking the heat out the burgeoning constitutional crisis of Scottish independence, I dont see any reason why the British people would get uppity about it. After all, both this goverment and the previous one lied about giving referenda over the EU and there was no short-term comeback.

 

Only Pie-Face would find some way to exploit such discussions and f**k them up for political advantage, you can be sure.

[Saintandy666]

tbf Andy, my Dad's family are from republican West Belfast. When we used go there at the height of the troubles everybody was very nice to us, even in the volunteers club my cousin thought it would be 'interesting' for us to visit (albeit very suspicious and had us checked out). Family and politics are usually kept separate.

 

Of course, but I've never had any bad reactions to me obviously being English beyond light hearted banter. Obviously, they get annoyed when people say they can't do it alone style comments though. No-one is all 'English people are bastards' style stuff.

 

I see the analogy, but I think the troubles were perhaps more strongly felt by each side and certainly more serious considering the violence involved(and religious element). Many people would have seen their communities torn apart and friends dead or injured over the issue. But I wasn't alive at the time so I can't really speak much about it beyond what I've read and been told/taught.

[Saintandy666]

Are you serious ? If the leaders of the three parties plus the SNP came together and agreed to separate the voting on regional vs Union issues in the name of taking the heat out the burgeoning constitutional crisis of Scottish independence, I dont see any reason why the British people would get uppity about it. After all, both this goverment and the previous one lied about giving referenda over the EU and there was no short-term comeback.

 

Only Pie-Face would find some way to exploit such discussions and f**k them up for political advantage, you can be sure.

 

A new election would still be needed as a new mandate would be needed. And as it would be a major constitutional change in the way we are run, probably needs a referendum too, so we might as well just have one on the presidential system I proposed

[alpine_saint]

A new election would still be needed as a new mandate would be needed. And as it would be a major constitutional change in the way we are run, probably needs a referendum too, so we might as well just have one on the presidential system I proposed

 

No, sorry, dont see that one at all. I think you are over-analysing this.

[Saintandy666]

No, sorry, dont see that one at all. I think you are over-analysing this.

 

Not at all I don't think for reasons already said. I think we have reached the end of this discussion though and all points have been made that are going to be made! Needs a new perspective if this thread is to continue... thanks for the discussion though. Agree to disagree?

[alpine_saint]

not at all i don't think for reasons already said. I think we have reached the end of this discussion though and all points have been made that are going to be made! Needs a new perspective if this thread is to continue... Thanks for the discussion though. Agree to disagree?

 

ok

[dune]

FFS SaintAndy666. Considering you're not even an adult you think you know it all.

[Thedelldays]

FFS SaintAndy666. Considering you're not even an adult you think you know it all.

the most pompous teenager ever...............the reason he may not have seen any ill feeling in scotland would be dur to the fact he has been a chiold nearly all his life.......I have been all over scotland, galsgow, Helensburgh, edinburgh, dunfirmline, rosyth are the main areas and in general........they do NOT like the english........the city centres of Glasgow and Edinburgh were fine....but they, like most othrt large city centres have many many "foreign" people in it......

[dune]

The big issue of them going it alone is us then having a socialist/communist country on our doorstep. Once the oil stops propping them up they'll be the deep in the sh/t. If and when they do break away i'd want to see border controls and a firm declaration that we would not offer financial assistance.

[pap]

If this matter is about self-determination, then it follows that the in/out referendum is the only way to go? Why? Because any devolution-max solution isn't just about the Scots - it involves the English too.

 

I can understand the SNP being miffed about the timing being forced upon them, but Cameron is right to whittle the choices down to two.

[Verbal]

the most pompous teenager ever...............the reason he may not have seen any ill feeling in scotland would be dur to the fact he has been a chiold nearly all his life.......I have been all over scotland, galsgow, Helensburgh, edinburgh, dunfirmline, rosyth are the main areas and in general........they do NOT like the english........the city centres of Glasgow and Edinburgh were fine....but they, like most othrt large city centres have many many "foreign" people in it......

 

Personally, I'd trust Andy's judgement on this over yours - you give the impression of learning less about other places the more you travel to them. And why don't you cut out the boring attempt at bullying - it's by definition laughably juvenile to call someone 'the most pompous teenager ever'.

[pap]

Personally, I'd trust Andy's judgement on this over yours - you give the impression of learning less about other places the more you travel to them. And why don't you cut out the boring attempt at bullying - it's by definition laughably juvenile to call someone 'the most pompous teenager ever'.

 

From the Ugly Inside :-

 

My favourite thing when reading SaintsWeb is when people like thedelldays and Del realise that they have nothing good to add on a debate and are being completely outgunned by someone half their age so they just make a comment on saintandy's or Super Mikey's age instead. They are the brilliant moments that make those threads worthwhile to read: the moment when a man in his 30s realises he's arguing with someone on the internet and not even doing it very well

 

Pretty much sums up my feelings on the abuse that SuperMikey and SaintAndy666 get.

 

(No, I didn't write it)

[alpine_saint]

If this matter is about self-determination, then it follows that the in/out referendum is the only way to go? Why? Because any devolution-max solution isn't just about the Scots - it involves the English too.

 

I can understand the SNP being miffed about the timing being forced upon them, but Cameron is right to whittle the choices down to two.

 

I dont. Pie-Face is playing games, and causing tension in England as well as Scotland. I think it is perfectly fine for Cameron to say, "enough, lets get this sorted now, once-and-for-all".

 

Maybe the clever-deeeck Pie-Face has got too (ocky and overplayed his hand recently.

[pap]

I dont. Pie-Face is playing games, and causing tension in England as well as Scotland. I think it is perfectly fine for Cameron to say, "enough, lets get this sorted now, once-and-for-all".

 

But you can understand why the SNP are doing it? By depicting the time limit as a diktat from the "Westminster government" ( another deliberate choice from them ), they're attempting to turn Scottish public opinion away from the perpetuation of the Union.

 

Maybe the clever-deeeck Pie-Face has got too (ocky and overplayed his hand recently.

 

Possibly. We'll only know in a referendum.

 

The real shame of all of this is that it is completely gratuitous. Salmond and his SNP pals can try and differentiate Scotland all they like, but the uncomfortable truth for them is that there isn't a fag-paper's worth of difference between the English and the Scots, save the fact that the Scots don't like us much for historical reasons.

[Guided Missile]

Cameron learnt from the deal that he made with the Lib Dems regarding the Proportional Representation/Alternative Vote bo££ox, Clegg thought would give their pointless party a bit more power. They were laughed out of the polling station in an expensive and humiliating lesson to all of the marginal parties. I think Salmond saw this and realised that the same would happen to his little scheme to grab more power. Give him all the rope he wants, David. The electorate, when faced with this pointless exercise, will do the same to his party as they have to the Lib Dems.

 

The only organisation that will be laughing at this joke will be the Labour party.

[Frank's cousin]

the most pompous teenager ever...............the reason he may not have seen any ill feeling in scotland would be dur to the fact he has been a chiold nearly all his life.......I have been all over scotland, galsgow, Helensburgh, edinburgh, dunfirmline, rosyth are the main areas and in general........they do NOT like the english........the city centres of Glasgow and Edinburgh were fine....but they, like most othrt large city centres have many many "foreign" people in it......

 

 

er... sorry , I live here. I have never had any anti-englishness thrown at me, whether in Glasgow, Edi or where I live rurally in Fife... Sure I would get some stick if I went around slagging the Scots (and some of the posts in this threads suggest you can see why there is some anti English sentiment) - worst I get is good natured banter during the annual egg chasing game.

 

Also, please get sme facts right before using things such as the Uni Fees to beat the Scots - the situation is not based on some Anti-English sentiment, but on EU law - ironically if independent, english students would be legally entitled to the same fee structure as Scots/EU students - and lets not forget this is nothing to do with nationality. Even English kids would get Free Uni fees if resident in Scotland - nowt to do with anti-englishness.

 

EU law simply dictates that whatever you offer must be avaibale to all within the EU, with only regional variation allowed within the national border - and all other EU nations do the same - eg we could get free Uni education in Germany with many causes taught in English if we wanted to...

 

I dont like Salmond, and I am not in favour of independence - and nor are about 55% of Scots FWIW.

[alpine_saint]

But you can understand why the SNP are doing it? By depicting the time limit as a diktat from the "Westminster government" ( another deliberate choice from them ), they're attempting to turn Scottish public opinion away from the perpetuation of the Union.

 

Cameron can argue that hes giving the Scottish people what Pie-Face says they want at the earliest possible opportunity.

 

Whichever way you cut it, it looks like the SNP playing the games.

[pap]

Cameron can argue that hes giving the Scottish people what Pie-Face says they want at the earliest possible opportunity.

 

Whichever way you cut it, it looks like the SNP playing the games.

 

Oh aye, I was listening to the Today programme on the way back from the school run. The SNP representative was fking bricking it.

[alpine_saint]

er... sorry , I live here. I have never had any anti-englishness thrown at me, whether in Glasgow, Edi or where I live rurally in Fife... Sure I would get some stick if I went around slagging the Scots (and some of the posts in this threads suggest you can see why there is some anti English sentiment) - worst I get is good natured banter during the annual egg chasing game.

 

Also, please get sme facts right before using things such as the Uni Fees to beat the Scots - the situation is not based on some Anti-English sentiment, but on EU law - ironically if independent, english students would be legally entitled to the same fee structure as Scots/EU students - and lets not forget this is nothing to do with nationality. Even English kids would get Free Uni fees if resident in Scotland - nowt to do with anti-englishness.

EU law simply dictates that whatever you offer must be avaibale to all within the EU, with only regional variation allowed within the national border - and all other EU nations do the same - eg we could get free Uni education in Germany with many causes taught in English if we wanted to...

 

I dont like Salmond, and I am not in favour of independence - and nor are about 55% of Scots FWIW.

 

Pull the other one, Frank. Scottish universities are free to EU citizens or they are not. Last time I checked England was still a region within the EU. If you argue about some arse structural law issue in the UK that prevents English students going to Scottish universities free, I am just going to argue that the Scottish univiersities could waive the fees to English students in the spirit of equality, but they dont.

[alpine_saint]

Oh aye, I was listening to the Today programme on the way back from the school run. The SNP representative was fking bricking it.

 

Having not hear it myself, can you please confirm whehter you are being sarcastic or serious ?

[pap]

Having not hear it myself, can you please confirm whehter you are being sarcastic or serious ?

 

Being serious. The interview started out with the presenter floating the idea that the SNP had been given exactly what it wanted, a legally binding referendum on the independence of Scotland.

 

The woman from the SNP wasn't interested in the fact that Scottish people are getting to decide, and focused entirely on the Westminster government angle.

 

She was even pulled up about the SNP's manifesto commitment to have a referendum 'as soon as possible', which she repeatedly failed to address.

 

I invite any argument to the contrary, but my view is that SNP get votes because Scots feel that there is more chance of them standing up for Scottish issues within the union. I don't think it follows that everyone who voted for SNP would vote yes in a referendum.

 

The SNP knows this, which is precisely why their representative seemed to be talking in the manner of someone who had soiled her metaphorical undergarments.

[alpine_saint]

Being serious. The interview started out with the presenter floating the idea that the SNP had been given exactly what it wanted, a legally binding referendum on the independence of Scotland.

 

The woman from the SNP wasn't interested in the fact that Scottish people are getting to decide, and focused entirely on the Westminster government angle.

 

She was even pulled up about the SNP's manifesto commitment to have a referendum 'as soon as possible', which she repeatedly failed to address.

 

I invite any argument to the contrary, but my view is that SNP get votes because Scots feel that there is more chance of them standing up for Scottish issues within the union. I don't think it follows that everyone who voted for SNP would vote yes in a referendum.

The SNP knows this, which is precisely why their representative seemed to be talking in the manner of someone who had soiled her metaphorical undergarments.

 

Reckon you are on to something there.

[Saintandy666]

Paps right on why a lot of people vote SNP and it's backed up by stats. From what I can find this year support for full independence has risen from 23% to 32%, so around the time of the election it was languishing around the mid 20's, yet the SNP gained 45.4% so either those who believe in independence are far more motivated to vote or about 15-20% of those who voted SNP do not believe in their main policy.

[pap]

It was Nicola Sturgeon on the Today programme, btw.

 

I mentioned her on Twitter and was immediately followed by @NTSI_VoteNo, a twitter account representing 'No to Scottish Independence'.

 

Some interesting stuff on their website, which I haven't fact-checked. However, a particularly juicy claim is that Salmond is using UK tax-payer money to convince Scots to leave the UK. Brilliant!

[buctootim]

Prior to the EU Scotland leaving the UK would have been a bad thing for them and us. Now tbh I dont think it would make much difference, given the freedom of goods and people around the EU anyway - and what little difference it would make would be good for us and bad for them.

[alpine_saint]

Prior to the EU Scotland leaving the UK would have been a bad thing for them and us. Now tbh I dont think it would make much difference, given the freedom of goods and people around the EU anyway - and what little difference it would make would be good for us and bad for them.

 

Dunno. I dont think its nostalgia per se making me write this, but if you look at Europe's pretty chequered history over the last ca. half a millennia, there has always been a UK; a foundation stone for European stability and civilization. On a certain level, it would be sad to see it break up. We arent talking about the USSR, Nazi Germany or the EU here...

[pap]

The other interesting question on this is "who gets to vote?".

 

Should this be a decision purely taken by Scots?

[dune]

Maybe the clever-deeeck Pie-Face has got too (ocky and overplayed his hand recently.

 

This. Definitely this.

[trousers]

The other interesting question on this is "who gets to vote?".

 

Should this be a decision purely taken by Scots?

 

It seems "fair" to me that any break up of the United Kingdom should be decided by everyone in the United Kingdom who would be affected by said break up. That's simple logic IMHO.

 

If Londoners decided they wanted to break away from England would it be "fair" if, say, those of us living in Hampshire had no say about it?

[dune]

Paps right on why a lot of people vote SNP and it's backed up by stats. From what I can find this year support for full independence has risen from 23% to 32%, so around the time of the election it was languishing around the mid 20's, yet the SNP gained 45.4% so either those who believe in independence are far more motivated to vote or about 15-20% of those who voted SNP do not believe in their main policy.

 

The SNP are only at that level on the backlash against Labour because they are the only alternative. The Tory party needs completely reinventing up there. People are not voting SNP because they believe in communism, they are voting SNP because that is the only perceived alternative AND BECAUSE SALMOND HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO BLACKMAIL THE UK to get the Scots preferential treatment. That should never have happened. We now need a referendum to remove the noose from our own necks and once we've won we need to take the fight to Salmomd, stop pandering to him, and start attacking him and his record.

[buctootim]

I agree with Cameron. They can have what they've got or go independent. They cant play pick and mix with the relationship - taking the parts they like, leaving those they dont and reserving the right to eff off at some time in the future when the weather might be better and they've gort a better offer.

[trousers]

Paps right on why a lot of people vote SNP and it's backed up by stats. From what I can find this year support for full independence has risen from 23% to 32%, so around the time of the election it was languishing around the mid 20's, yet the SNP gained 45.4% so either those who believe in independence are far more motivated to vote or about 15-20% of those who voted SNP do not believe in their main policy.

 

Or, to put the stats another way, c.25% of people eligible to vote in the Scottish elections last year voted for the only party advocating independence.

 

Ergo c.75% of the Scottish electorate chose not to vote for the SNP in the Scottish elections.

[pap]

It seems "fair" to me that any break up of the United Kingdom should be decided by everyone in the United Kingdom who would be affected by said break up. That's simple logic IMHO.

 

If Londoners decided they wanted to break away from England would it be "fair" if, say, those of us living in Hampshire had no say about it?

 

FWIW, if the rest of the UK did get to vote, I don't think they would block it.

 

Personally, I'm rather sick of the question. If they want to leave, so be it. Frankly, if Salmond manages an independent Scotland with anything like the diligence he applies when managing his diet, then I'm not sure they're in good hands. Shallow, I know.

Edited 9 January, 2012 by pap

[alpine_saint]

I agree with Cameron. They can have what they've got or go independent. They cant play pick and mix with the relationship - taking the parts they like, leaving those they dont and reserving the right to eff off at some time in the future when the weather might be better and they've gort a better offer.

 

Great summary.

[alpine_saint]

It seems "fair" to me that any break up of the United Kingdom should be decided by everyone in the United Kingdom who would be affected by said break up. That's simple logic IMHO.

 

If Londoners decided they wanted to break away from England would it be "fair" if, say, those of us living in Hampshire had no say about it?

 

The question has to be about complete dissolution against complete unity of the UK then, if everyone votes. I cannot see how English, Welsh and Northern Irish can vote on Scottish independence.

[trousers]

The question has to be about complete dissolution against complete unity of the UK then, if everyone votes. I cannot see how English, Welsh and Northern Irish can vote on Scottish independence.

 

I can....

 

If Scottish indepenence has a 'significant' effects on someone living in, say, England, then they should have a democratic say in their change of life, surely?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily saying there will be a significant effect to anyone living outside of Scotland (maybe there will, maybe there won't).....all I'm saying is IF it did then it's only logical that you should canvass the views of all those who would be affected.

 

Yours logically.

Edited 9 January, 2012 by trousers

[trousers]

FWIW, if the rest of the UK did get to vote, I don't think they would block it.

 

Exactly. Somewhat ironically, it would probably be in the SNP's interests to ask the question of the UK as a whole.

[pap]

At the moment, any legally binding referendum on changing the make-up of the union has to include all of the UK, according to this article.

 

I would expect that the legal work that Cameron and co are developing is to provide an exception so that Scots can vote alone.

 

Conceptually, it seems right that the Scots decide this on our own. I get trousers' point, but applied to say, UK membership of the EU, the argument doesn't seem as strong.

[trousers]

Conceptually, it seems right that the Scots decide this on our own. I get trousers' point, but applied to say, UK membership of the EU, the argument doesn't seem as strong.

 

Would a Scottish person living permenently in England (or elsewhere for that matter) get a vote in a 'Scots only' referendum, do we know? (genuine question, as I've no idea, but you can probably see where I'm going depending on the answer)

[Lord Duckhunter]

The last thing that the SNP want is an in/out vote, as they'll lose it.If the Scots thought that a vote for the SNP would automatically lead to independence, they would be nowhere near power. The Scots could vote for Salmon, safe in the knowledge that it'll never happen, so for the SNP to claim a mandate on this is just false.

 

There are loads of questions that need answering.

 

What happens to the currency-Are they going to join the Euro, have their own, or keep the £. Surely keeping the £ is down to the rest of the UK to decide, not them.If they want to join the Euro will the Scots accept the tough new rules written by The French and Germans. Will Salmon not be swapping an English lead UK Monetary policy for a Franco German led EU one?

 

What happens to the pension provisions of the public sector workers in Scotland. Does the UK pick up the liabilities of pensions earnt whilst working as part of the UK, or does the new state honour these?

 

What happens to Scottish members of the armed forces. Are they going to have their own forces, or continue in the UK's. If they want to remain part of our's then surely it's for the UK to decide whether Scots should serve in OUR forces, and how much are they going to contribute towards the cost?

 

What about our AAA crdit rating, I presume Scotland would have to borrow money at the rate set by the markets and could not borrow it at our cheap rate.

 

How much are the Scots going to pay the UK for bailing out their banks? RBS & HBOS were bailed out by the UK, therefore any tax revenues collected from them should be distributed back to the tax payers of the UK as well as Scotland.

 

How much will Scotland contribute to NATO and the EU?

 

Are they still going to have the Queen as head of their state? If so, how much are they going to contribute towards the civil lists and the people who work for her?

 

 

Personally, my view is that a federal UK is the best way forward.

[trousers]

Would a Scottish person living permenently in England (or elsewhere for that matter) get a vote in a 'Scots only' referendum, do we know? (genuine question, as I've no idea, but you can probably see where I'm going depending on the answer)

 

And, on the flip side, would non-Scots living permenently in Scotland get a say?

[alpine_saint]

I can....

 

If Scottish indepenence has a 'significant' effects on someone living in, say, England, then they should have a democratic say in their change of life, surely?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily saying there will be a significant effect to anyone living outside of Scotland (maybe there will, maybe there won't).....all I'm saying is IF it did then it's only logical that you should canvass the views of all those who would be affected.

 

Yours logically.

 

But thats just plain ridiculous because of the big mis-matches in English and Scottish populations. In that case, its possible to argue such a vote is pointless.

[trousers]

But thats just plain ridiculous because of the big mis-matches in English and Scottish populations. In that case, its possible to argue such a vote is pointless.

 

I respectifully disagree. I don't think it's ridiculous to ask the opinion of anyone who is potentially affected by something.