Cameron seeks independence referendum clarity for Scotland

[Guided Missile]

Don't, don't....don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, Jock...

[alpine_saint]

I reckon Cameron is doing the right thing, taking the initiative.

 

1. Set them an in/out straight choice, none of this independence-lite sh*t where they have their cake and eat it too - all the benefits of a Union and none of the responsibilities.

 

2. Force the referendum for this year or early next year so Pie-Face cannot set it for the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn (the last time the sweaties won) and ride home on a wave of nationalism.

 

Seeing Camerons action as positive is of course contingent on being a Unionist, which I am not sure I am anymore. Part of me yearns to cut those whinging scrounging f**kers and their Barnet formula free once-and-for-all.

[Gingeletiss]

Let them go, less MP's to pay, re build the wall, make them forfeit their passports...the list is endless, but suffice to say, I'm all for their independence.

[View From The Top]

Perhaps they should offer us English a referendum as to whether we want to be independent from all of the other nations of the UK.

[alpine_saint]

Considering what the last two PMs (both Sweaties) did to this nation, I reckon we should let them govern themselves and laugh from a distance as they try to do it without English money.

[Verbal]

So once the English have got shot of the Scots, can we Londoners claim independence from the rest of you sponging gits?

[Tom8558]

The question is, go the scots bring profit to england or loss. In my opinion, it is a loss so, financially, independence makes sense

[dune]

We should have a referendum on whether we wish to rule them anymore. They seem to get bribes left right and centre to try to keep them sweet so i'd be inclined to cast them adrift so long as we make it clear we won't bail them out in the future. The current political makeup in Jockland is a train crash in the making. Left wing Labour versus further left SNP. If they go it alone they are f/cked without an equivalent of the Conservative party to manage the economy properly after Labour/SNP have f/cked it up.

[Wade Garrett]

I reckon Cameron is doing the right thing, taking the initiative.

 

1. Set them an in/out straight choice, none of this independence-lite sh*t where they have their cake and eat it too - all the benefits of a Union and none of the responsibilities.

 

2. Force the referendum for this year or early next year so Pie-Face cannot set it for the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn (the last time the sweaties won) and ride home on a wave of nationalism.

 

Seeing Camerons action as positive is of course contingent on being a Unionist, which I am not sure I am anymore. Part of me yearns to cut those whinging scrounging f**kers and their Barnet formula free once-and-for-all.

 

I think this is out of order. The 'sweaties' were part of the British Armed Forces that made this country great. You're comments are disrespectful.

[Saintandy666]

Scotland contributes a lot, both culturally and financially. Verbal actually makes a good point re London for those making the financial point. I don't want to see us apart, but obviously that's up to the Scottish people who include one half of my family.

[solentstars]

I think this is out of order. The 'sweaties' were part of the British Armed Forces that made this country great. You're comments are disrespectful.

 

Agree I've got no problem if the Scots want to run their own country.it would make no difference to the union and being in Europe means the if will be no borders .just another bitter chip on the shoulder thread by the same little englanders again.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[mack rill]

Scotland contributes a lot, both culturally and financially. Verbal actually makes a good point re London for those making the financial point. I don't want to see us apart, but obviously that's up to the Scottish people who include one half of my family.

 

Hmmm I seem to be at a loss hear, I cannot think of one thing that Bonny Scotland contributes to good old Blighty, Oh i know they keep the doctors n nurses over worked in the Tourette's clinic,

Joking apart it would be interesting to see just how many of the Scottish folk do want Independence, Or is it vote gaining sh*t from there MPs

[trousers]

So once the English have got shot of the Scots, can we Londoners claim independence from the rest of you sponging gits?

 

^ This

[Gingeletiss]

Hmmm I seem to be at a loss hear, I cannot think of one thing that Bonny Scotland contributes to good old Blighty, Oh i know they keep the doctors n nurses over worked in the Tourette's clinic,

Joking apart it would be interesting to see just how many of the Scottish folk do want Independence, Or is it vote gaining sh*t from there MPs

 

Most I know want it, seems to be smacked into them as children.

[Saintandy666]

Most I know want it, seems to be smacked into them as children.

 

My family don't seem to want it, though they don't like it when English people go on how crap they would be at being independent. We both benefit from the union, though of course England/Wales/N.I and Scotland COULD do it alone... but we're stronger together.

 

I think the Scottish actually quite like devolution these days, or at least that's what opinions polls suggest. The majority don't want independence, though so called 'devo-max' is very popular.

[Gingeletiss]

My family don't seem to want it, though they don't like it when English people go on how crap they would be at being independent. We both benefit from the union, though of course England/Wales/N.I and Scotland COULD do it alone... but we're stronger together.

 

I think the Scottish actually quite like devolution these days, or at least that's what opinions polls suggest. The majority don't want independence, though so called 'devo-max' is very popular.

 

You may be right, they're happy to sit there using our taxes to have a better standard of education, health care etc, for that reason alone, I say cast them adrift. Mind you, their very own fishy friend up there, will ensure that they close the borders again come on AS, you can do it!

[Verbal]

You may be right, they're happy to sit there using our taxes to have a better standard of education, health care etc, for that reason alone, I say cast them adrift. Mind you, their very own fishy friend up there, will ensure that they close the borders again come on AS, you can do it!

 

Once again, I can use the same argument against you: we should stop using Londoners' tax payments to subsidise provincial English education, health care, etc. Sounds okay, right?

[Saintandy666]

You may be right, they're happy to sit there using our taxes to have a better standard of education, health care etc, for that reason alone, I say cast them adrift. Mind you, their very own fishy friend up there, will ensure that they close the borders again come on AS, you can do it!

 

Well, if they want devo-max or independence, what you've said is clearly wrong as they in those two options would raise there own taxes. Also, what you've said is total rubbish anyways, we are one country. Could same be said for london vs. a lot of the rest of the country?!

[alpine_saint]

I think this is out of order. The 'sweaties' were part of the British Armed Forces that made this country great. You're comments are disrespectful.

 

Dont blame me, I used to be a big fan of the union and call myself British, before the racist Pie-Face started whipping up anti-English feeling north of the border.

 

The final straw was hearing about grown Scottish men smacking a kid and a disabled bloke in a wheelchair, both of which wore England shirts, in some part of Glasgow or another, during Portugal 2008.

 

I also remember watching England v Argentina during France 98 with an insufferable large group of Scots, resplendent in their ginger wigs, Scotland shirts and kilts, with Argentinian flags painted on their faces. Sod the fact they killed 255 British servicemen a few years before with an illegal military incursion into sovereign British territory.

[derry]

And then you could organise the French to organise an airlift to help you survive provided we gave them access.

[alpine_saint]

I think the Scottish actually quite like devolution these days, or at least that's what opinions polls suggest. The majority don't want independence, though so called 'devo-max' is very popular.

 

You mean the having-your-cake-and-eating-it solution ? I bet they do.

 

We fund their uni places (how peverse is it that a student from Bulgaria pays no fees, but one from England does??), their free prescriptions, and many other things to boot, and they just slag us off.

 

Cameron is spot on. You're in or out guys. Pity he wont give the UK the same choice about the EU.

[derry]

You mean the having-your-cake-and-eating-it solution ? I bet they do.

 

We fund their uni places (how peverse is it that a student from Bulgaria pays no fees, but one from England does??), their free prescriptions, and many other things to boot, and they just slag us off.

 

Cameron is spot on. You're in or out guys. Pity he wont give the UK the same choice about the EU.

 

If He gave England a referendum They would all be out including Europe.

[Saintandy666]

You mean the having-your-cake-and-eating-it solution ? I bet they do.

 

We fund their uni places (how peverse is it that a student from Bulgaria pays no fees, but one from England does??), their free prescriptions, and many other things to boot, and they just slag us off.

 

Cameron is spot on. You're in or out guys. Pity he wont give the UK the same choice about the EU.

 

I don't think it is having their cake and eating it. Defence and Foreign affairs would be still done in Westminster, and money for that would still be contributed nationwide, but all other services would have to be funded by money raised within Scotland and Scotland only with their own tax and spend rates.

 

And the reason places like Wales and Scotland have stuff like cheaper unis and what not is different priorities because it is more left wing. But I agree it is absolutely out of order how an EU citizen pays nothing at a Scottish university whereas I if I wanted to go there would have to pay 9k(though I'm going to an England based uni next year anyways so doesn't affect me, but it's still wrong). And before someone says that means I want out of the EU, just because I don't agree with every single one of its effects, doesn't mean the whole thing is bad... just like anything political really.

[Saintandy666]

Dont blame me, I used to be a big fan of the union and call myself British, before the racist Pie-Face started whipping up anti-English feeling north of the border.

 

The final straw was hearing about grown Scottish men smacking a kid and a disabled bloke in a wheelchair, both of which wore England shirts, in some part of Glasgow or another, during Portugal 2008.

 

I also remember watching England v Argentina during France 98 with an insufferable large group of Scots, resplendent in their ginger wigs, Scotland shirts and kilts, with Argentinian flags painted on their faces. Sod the fact they killed 255 British servicemen a few years before with an illegal military incursion into sovereign British territory.

 

I think you are wrong to stereotype the whole of Scotland based on one isolated incident clearly carried out by absolute morons. Having Scottish family means I have been Scotland many times in my life(at least once each year, sometimes more) and I have never experienced anything, but politeness. Maybe some harmless banter here and there, but it is all light hearted.

[Gingeletiss]

Well, if they want devo-max or independence, what you've said is clearly wrong as they in those two options would raise there own taxes. Also, what you've said is total rubbish anyways, we are one country. Could same be said for london vs. a lot of the rest of the country?!

 

Yeah right!. carry on believing that, they don't.

[alpine_saint]

I think you are wrong to stereotype the whole of Scotland based on one isolated incident clearly carried out by absolute morons. Having Scottish family means I have been Scotland many times in my life(at least once each year, sometimes more) and I have never experienced anything, but politeness. Maybe some harmless banter here and there, but it is all light hearted.

 

So you dont think that the ill will between the two parts of the UK is on the increase ?

[Saintandy666]

Yeah right!. carry on believing that, they don't.

 

Well, whether they believe that or not is irrelevant to the point I was making re tax raising and distribution. Obviously, richer parts will contribute more to the treasuries funds, though Scotland isn't as 'poor' as some people seem to think. They'd get on fine without England, not that I want that to happen!

[alpine_saint]

I'd like to know when Scottish MPs stop voting on English laws; the "West Lothian Question"

 

I know the HOC is investigating a law change about this already, but the Scottish MPs could actually voluntarily stop if they were so high-principled about independence...

[Saintandy666]

So you dont think that the ill will between the two parts of the UK is on the increase ?

 

I haven't experienced anything of the sort. Most people I have met, even if they are pro-independence aren't rude about England, just think they want to go it alone. But I have only really been to Edinburgh and the surrounding countryside/areas(which is really nice).

[Gingeletiss]

I haven't experienced anything of the sort. Most people I have met, even if they are pro-independence aren't rude about England, just think they want to go it alone. But I have only really been to Edinburgh and the surrounding countryside/areas(which is really nice).

 

You still have a lot of growing to do, you're still very young, trust me, they do not like the English.....fact!

[Saintandy666]

I'd like to know when Scottish MPs stop voting on English laws; the "West Lothian Question"

 

I know the HOC is investigating a law change about this already, but the Scottish MPs could actually voluntarily stop if they were so high-principled about independence...

 

That would break the system as MPs are elected on manifestos which include UK-wide manifestos. A Scottish constituency voting in a person for a UK-wide party agrees to a manifesto that includes policies that stem the whole UK. Also, if they didn't vote, it could create a scenario where there is a majority party that can form a government, but can't actually get through any policy because it's not allowed to use its scottish MPs, but it can't be defeated in a no confidence vote. It'd be havoc.

[Saintandy666]

You still have a lot of growing to do, you're still very young, trust me, they do not like the English.....fact!

 

This isn't even about growing up though, I've visted Scotland enough times and my family are Scottish and I've met enough Scottish people to know that the Scottish(from my experience) do not 'not like the English'.

[Gingeletiss]

This isn't even about growing up though, I've visted Scotland enough times and my family are Scottish and I've met enough Scottish people to know that the Scottish(from my experience) do not 'not like the English'.

 

Andy, you sound very well educated, but having been in the forces, I have also met several Scots, I have been based up at Helensburgh several times, and my experience tells me, they want independence, and have a built in hate for the English, and I have several ex-army buddies who are Scottish.

[alpine_saint]

That would break the system as MPs are elected on manifestos which include UK-wide manifestos. A Scottish constituency voting in a person for a UK-wide party agrees to a manifesto that includes policies that stem the whole UK. Also, if they didn't vote, it could create a scenario where there is a majority party that can form a government, but can't actually get through any policy because it's not allowed to use its scottish MPs, but it can't be defeated in a no confidence vote. It'd be havoc.

 

It would also be demoncratic. And I am talking about Scottish MPs not voting on English education bills, for example.

[Saintandy666]

Andy, you sound very well educated, but having been in the forces, I have also met several Scots, I have been based up at Helensburgh several times, and my experience tells me, they want independence, and have a built in hate for the English, and I have several ex-army buddies who are Scottish.

 

I don't doubt that. We have obviously both had different experiences, we need to find some sort of survey or statistics to settle this. My family and the area they live in are quite moderate though, which would obviously skew my experience of whom I've met!

[Gingeletiss]

I don't doubt that. We have obviously both had different experiences, we need to find some sort of survey or statistics to settle this. My family and the area they live in are quite moderate though, which would obviously skew my experience of whom I've met!

 

 

Lol....go into Dumbarton on Saturday night, and proclaim yourself English, double dare you!!

[Saintandy666]

It would also be demoncratic. And I am talking about Scottish MPs not voting on English education bills, for example.

 

It wouldn't be democratic within the current system though. What we would need is a fully devolved English/Welsh parliament to deal with English/Welsh issues otherwise the General Election in Scotland and the electorate mandate they are elected on get tangled up in sovereignty issues and Westminster to deal with Defence and Foreign Affairs. That could work, though I wouldn't want it.

[Saintandy666]

Lol....go into Dumbarton on Saturday night, and proclaim yourself English, double dare you!!

 

Ahhahahah, no way, I don't have the balls!

 

I am going up to Edinburgh next month though(to see Pandas mainly!), so I'll report back then

[Gingeletiss]

Ahhahahah, no way, I don't have the balls!

 

I am going up to Edinburgh next month though(to see Pandas mainly!), so I'll report back then

 

But they're posh Jocks there, they will buy you a drink before they nut you!!

[alpine_saint]

It wouldn't be democratic within the current system though. What we would need is a fully devolved English/Welsh parliament to deal with English/Welsh issues otherwise the General Election in Scotland and the electorate mandate they are elected on get tangled up in sovereignty issues and Westminster to deal with Defence and Foreign Affairs. That could work, though I wouldn't want it.

 

But in the meantime Scottish MPs could just abstain from voting on English issues to demonstrate a separation in the national interests. Sorry, you are using legaleese to justify the unjustifiable, imo.

[Saintandy666]

But they're posh Jocks there, they will buy you a drink before they nut you!!

 

Well, it's nice to see that courtesy and politeness remains.

[alpine_saint]

It wouldn't be democratic within the current system though. What we would need is a fully devolved English/Welsh parliament to deal with English/Welsh issues otherwise the General Election in Scotland and the electorate mandate they are elected on get tangled up in sovereignty issues and Westminster to deal with Defence and Foreign Affairs. That could work, though I wouldn't want it.

 

But in the meantime Scottish MPs could just abstain from voting on English issues to demonstrate a separation in the national interests. Sorry, you are using legaleese to justify the unjustifiable, imo. Which probably comes about from the fact your political affiliation is on the left and the left is screwed on English issues without Scottish votes at the moment.

[Saintandy666]

But in the meantime Scottish MPs could just abstain from voting on English issues to demonstrate a separation in the national interests. Sorry, you are using legaleese to justify the unjustifiable, imo. Which probably comes about from the fact your political affiliation is on the left and the left is screwed on English issues without Scottish votes at the moment.

 

I could easily put the same attack back at you that you are on the right etc etc etc so it's a cheap point in my opinion.

 

What is important though is that the institutions that govern our country and legally and constitutionally tight as they hold sovereignty which is no light matter. It is also of course important that the British public have the faith that they carry out their duties in a fair manner.

 

Obviously there is an issue at the moment with the West Lothian question, but we shouldn't opt for a bad solution because the right solution isn't doable yet. Having a parliament within a parliament raises huge constitutional issues that I addressed earlier, far more pressing than the West Lothian question. We'd need separate parliaments and separate elections as the members would have different functions within Westminster otherwise and the government without a majority, but can't be kicked out scenario I mentioned earlier(you could end up with one government on defence and foreign affairs and one for English/Welsh matters within the same parliament which Westminster can't provide for! It'd be a bizarre situation). The best way on balance is probably two separate institutions if Scotland does do devo-max.

[alpine_saint]

I could easily put the same attack back at you that you are on the right etc etc etc so it's a cheap point in my opinion.

 

 

I dont think its a cheap point at all. Without the Scottish votes, the Tories could pass English-specific legislation without the Lib-Dems. This coalition has brought the West Lothian Question even sharper into focus.

 

Its called being hoisted by your own petard. The Scots bleat about Tory UK governments with no Tory MPs in Scotland, but then why should not a Tory English majority decide English issues ?

[Saintandy666]

I dont think its a cheap point at all. Without the Scottish votes, the Tories could pass English-specific legislation without the Lib-Dems.

 

Yes, but the elections are nationwide. Please answer my constitutional points that I raised about different majorities and 'governments'(I use that term loosely as what would really be the executive if say Labour had a majority nationwide and so could force through defence policy and Foreign affairs, but Conservatives had it for England/Welsh issues... because the executive under current rules is pulled from parliaments make up) for different policies within one chamber of parliament! The PM would still be from labour under that scenario btw... but how would that even work given the current system?!

 

I've changed my mind, the best option is probably to kick out the monarchy and have a quasi-USish styleé federal system with a president in to deal with foreign affairs and defence and what not, and then each area of the UK having its own parliament to deal with internal affairs. I'm just musing and thinking at the moment though.

[alpine_saint]

Yes, but the elections are nationwide. Please answer my constitutional points that I raised about different majorities and 'governments'(I use that term loosely as what would really be the executive if say Labour had a majority nationwide and so could force through defence policy and Foreign affairs, but Conservatives had it for England/Welsh issues... because the executive under current rules is pulled from parliaments make up) for different policies within one chamber of parliament! The PM would still be from labour under that scenario btw... but how would that even work given the current system?!

 

I've changed my mind, the best option is probably to kick out the monarchy and have a quasi-USish styleé federal system with a president in to deal with foreign affairs and defence and what not, and then each area of the UK having its own parliament to deal with internal affairs. I'm just musing and thinking at the moment though.

 

I am in favour of the MPs of Scotland, England, Wales and Ulster deciding local policy for their regions, then coming together in a greater assembly to deal on common issues such as foreign policy and defence. The challenge is how to implement upper house oversight on the regional assemblies.

 

There are questions to be answered and discussions to be had before such structural changes can take place (we would need to check they are workable), but in the meantime in the interest of good relations and to take the heat out of the situation Scottish MPs nevertheless could stop voting on English issues.

[Saintandy666]

I dont think its a cheap point at all. Without the Scottish votes, the Tories could pass English-specific legislation without the Lib-Dems. This coalition has brought the West Lothian Question even sharper into focus.

 

Its called being hoisted by your own petard. The Scots bleat about Tory UK governments with no Tory MPs in Scotland, but then why should not a Tory English majority decide English issues ?

 

You keep editing your post which makes it hard to keep up, but I think I've covered why the solution of two parliaments within a parliament almost isn't sustainable in my prior post when I said about all the weird constitutional crisis's come up.

 

Don't get me wrong, the West Lothian question needs to be solved, but your solution is constitutionally undoable(see my last post again!)

[Saintandy666]

I am in favour of the MPs of Scotland, England, Wales and Ulster deciding local policy for their regions, then coming together in a greater assembly to deal on common issues such as foreign policy and defence. The challenge is how to implement upper house oversight on the regional assemblies.

 

There are questions to be answered and discussions to be had before such structural changes can take place (we would need to check they are workable), but in the meantime in the interest of good relations and to take the heat out of the situation Scottish MPs nevertheless could stop voting on English issues.

 

Nope, because it would create great constitutional issues, not to mention cause an election almost immediately as the coalition would be useless and they wouldn't survive a vote of no confidence. It can't be done within Westminster. A new system needs to be set up to accommodate what you want, it's the only way not to have massive constitutional holes.

[alpine_saint]

You keep editing your post which makes it hard to keep up, but I think I've covered why the solution of two parliaments within a parliament almost isn't sustainable in my prior post when I said about all the weird constitutional crisis's come up.

 

Don't get me wrong, the West Lothian question needs to be solved, but your solution is constitutionally undoable(see my last post again!)

 

Sorry, I really dont see the complexity that you see. It has nothing to do with constitutional values. English MPs vote on English issues, Scottish MPs vote on Scottish issues, all MPs vote on British issues. Those which are British or English / Scottish are already defined by the remit of the Scottish Parliament.

[Saintandy666]

Sorry, I really dont see the complexity that you see. It has nothing to do with constitutional values. English MPs vote on English issues, Scottish MPs vote on Scottish issues, all MPs vote on British issues. Those which are British or English / Scottish are already defined by the remit of the Scottish Parliament.

 

You are thinking of it at a simple face value level though. How the country is run is more complex than that and your solution could create greater constitutional crisis's than the current way. Don't settle for the crap solution, campaign for an actual proper working system involving the executive being the head of the state(i.e a UK-wide elected President) and then each area of the UK having it's own legislature to deal with internal affairs. That way there is no dogey 'two majority house' and no confusion over who is PM and who is the government.