very unfair on young players..

[david in sweden]

for some people to make the negative judgements they do ...on new (young) players coming in.

VERY few youngsters debut-ing hves set the world alight in their first games.

(Rare exceptions were Walcott's speed, Bale's free-kicks and AOC speed. but they didn't all score in their first games, either).

 

Those of us - with longer memories - can recall the likes of Mick Channon scoring on his debut, but not getting anywhere near a first team spot for nearly a year afterwards. Teenage Alan Shearer's hat-trick v. Arsenal is the most people recall of the young striker, who didn't get to be a regular spot for almost 18 months afterwards, and then wasn't any great shakes at scoring.

Only in his last season did he really attract attention and start to score goals - before his move to Blackburn.

 

I only hope that when the likes of; Ward-Prowse, Reeves, Shaw and Stephens are beginning to appear on the team sheet in the future that people may have a bit more patienct with them, and not expect to see a new Lionel Messi in the first month.

[Turkish]

I disagree. If a player doesnt have the right sort of attitude and mental toughness on his debut where little is expected of them then he is going to struggle in the pressure cooker atmosphere of big games in the future. Debuts are generally a good marker of a players mental toughness and belief in themselves.

[dubai_phil]

I disagree. If a player doesnt have the right sort of attitude and mental toughness on his debut where little is expected of them then he is going to struggle in the pressure cooker atmosphere of big games in the future. Debuts are generally a good marker of a players mental toughness and belief in themselves.

 

Mental toughness is all very well. But perhaps an ability to at least trap a football and maybe just once during a game have the ability to make a pass could be useful?

[Turkish]

Mental toughness is all very well. But perhaps an ability to at least trap a football and maybe just once during a game have the ability to make a pass could be useful?

 

You'd assume as they are proffesional footballers that is a given, surely?

[Barry the Badger]

Interesting that the players you note as having eye catching debuts were Walcott (now playing for Arsenal and England), Bale (one of the best players in the PL) and AOC (transferred for 15mil to Arsenal).

 

Surely this proves that you can read something into a young players debut.

[Turkish]

Interesting that the players you note as having eye catching debuts were Walcott (now playing for Arsenal and England), Bale (one of the best players in the PL) and AOC (transferred for 15mil to Arsenal).

 

Surely this proves that you can read something into a young players debut.

 

Shearer didn't do too badly for himself either did he.

[Dellman]

I remember Stevie Williams debut (yes, I'm very old) he came on as a sub not many of us even knew who he was but within a few minutes he was shouting orders at older players and I thought 'Blimey, we've got a special sort of guy here' and so we had. but I agree with OP we must treat the youngsters generously and not demand immediate success, it's normal to take a year like Channon and Shearer

[dubai_phil]

You'd assume as they are proffesional footballers that is a given, surely?

 

Well according to many on here it's something Guly still can't do

 

Let's face it, we have all seen a player make his debut and thought WTF?

 

I keep on about seeing a young lad in a pre-season friendly where the local & Saints fans laughed at his poor finishing & control and some baying for him to be taken off. That was MLT at Salisbury.

 

Did you watch Lallana in his first few games? looked like a fish out of water, his spell on loan helped him but it was a good season before he reached a consistent level of performance and he developed the confidence to start to use his skills.

 

It takes time to even see what is going on around you hence the loan system.

 

Mental toughness is fine but you can be so "in focused" you miss every other attribute that you need - it is not all about nerves, there's only a percentage of players mentally ready at age 17/18, the rest take time to develop as people not just footballers hence why so few U-21 players make it into our first team

[Sour Mash]

Where ahs the point of this thread come from? I haven't seen any new, young Saints players getting stick of any kind at the games I've been to.

[ericofarabia]

I remember Stevie Williams debut (yes, I'm very old) he came on as a sub not many of us even knew who he was but within a few minutes he was shouting orders at older players and I thought 'Blimey, we've got a special sort of guy here' and so we had. but I agree with OP we must treat the youngsters generously and not demand immediate success, it's normal to take a year like Channon and Shearer

 

Stevie Williams made his debut at Notarf Krap just after the semi final win in 76. I don't think he'd even established himself in the reserve team, but the first thing that we commented on was exactly as you said above - he was bollicking older pros and generally running the show. Defo one for the future was exactly our observation by HT. Remember this was at a supercharged mid week derby game atmosphere, not any old run of the mill game as well.

 

From vids on Saints Player of youth games v Man u and Arsenal I'd say Jake Sinclair is worth a pop at Coventry, but would obviously benefit more if there was plenty of experience and height to back him up. Maybe Saints are trying to keep him under the radar?

[Saint Mikey]

Stevie Williams made his debut at Notarf Krap just after the semi final win in 76. I don't think he'd even established himself in the reserve team, but the first thing that we commented on was exactly as you said above - he was bollicking older pros and generally running the show. Defo one for the future was exactly our observation by HT. Remember this was at a supercharged mid week derby game atmosphere, not any old run of the mill game as well.

 

From vids on Saints Player of youth games v Man u and Arsenal I'd say Jake Sinclair is worth a pop at Coventry, but would obviously benefit more if there was plenty of experience and height to back him up. Maybe Saints are trying to keep him under the radar?

 

Lolz. If you (or anyone) can have a look at a player on a Club's official TV channel, then I'm sure plenty of scouts and any of the top clubs know all about him (if they rate him). I think I read somewhere that teams like Utd, Arsenal, L'pool etc, know all about all youngsters in the country down to about the age of 11, or something ridiculous like that. There is no keeping any young player 'under the radar' now.

[Horley CTFC Saint]

for some people to make the negative judgements they do ...on new (young) players coming in.

VERY few youngsters debut-ing hves set the world alight in their first games.

(Rare exceptions were Walcott's speed, Bale's free-kicks and AOC speed. but they didn't all score in their first games, either).

Very true - remember Lallana's debut? Didn't impress me at all thought he was far too lightweight

[david in sweden]

Shearer didn't do too badly for himself either did he.

 

correct, but That Arsenal game was a one-off at the time. He didn't get in again until 9 months later and played 8 games without scoring.

the year after that he managed 3 goals from 19 starts , and then 4 goals from 32 games..hardly earth shattering peformances and quite a few fans were impatient with him.

Of course he did come to the fore and had a great (final) season with us (13 goals) before his move to Blackburn.

 

The point really is ..the less patient types in the fanbase tend to judge a player on his debut ..or his first couple of games -which is hardly fair.

Even if someone looks good in training, expecting them to make the adjustment to first team football in 90 minutes is no measure of a good player.

Edited 7 January, 2012 by david in sweden

[david in sweden]

I remember Stevie Williams debut (yes, I'm very old) he came on as a sub not many of us even knew who he was but within a few minutes he was shouting orders at older players and I thought 'Blimey, we've got a special sort of guy here' and so we had. but I agree with OP we must treat the youngsters generously and not demand immediate success, it's normal to take a year like Channon and Shearer

 

 

well, I don't know what you call OLD?, but I saw that game too, and Steve W. was actually selected from the start (he played in a nr. 10 shirt.)

although I agree with your description, he seemed to have a maturity far beyond his years (he was still 17 at the time) in a side that was basically the one that would win the FA Cup two months later.

 

Like Walcott, Bale and AOC, he wasone of that rare breed of youngster that seemed to fit in from Day 1.

[JustMike]

Sorry but what negative comments on which young players?

[david in sweden]

Stevie Williams made his debut at Notarf Krap just after the semi final win in 76.

I don't think he'd even established himself in the reserve team, QUOTE]

 

 

you're right there Eric, he actually played his first Reserve game the previous year, but only came into the reserve line-up in December 1975. The derby game at Fratton referred to was in April 1976, and he'd played just 14 games in what was a very good young Reserve side (included Waldron, Andruzewsi, Hebberd, Pat Earles and Steve Neville (who all debuted later) and had League careers afterwards.

 

He came into the first team after Jim McCalliog left (Dec.1976) and went onto play 346 Saints games - before moving to Arsenal for £550K(aged 26).

 

I loved Kevin Keegans quote about SW.." he was a hothead, and could have caused an arguement in an abbey...but he could play"

[david in sweden]

Sorry but what negative comments on which young players?

 

Of course, Ward-Prowse wasn't the only player to get criticised in the fiasco League Cup game v. Palace, but Ben Reeves sub. app. at Brighton brought some rather vicious judgements from " some fans " - and it's hardly logical to condemn someone on the basis of a 30 min.sub. outing in a poor game that we lost anyway!

[david in sweden]

Interesting that the players you note as having eye catching debuts were Walcott (now playing for Arsenal and England), Bale (one of the best players in the PL) and AOC (transferred for 15mil to Arsenal).

 

Surely this proves that you can read something into a young players debut.

 

SOMETIMES maybe, but I quoted only three of the best prospects we've EVER had over a period of the last FIVE years ?

 

The majority of youngsters coming in take time to settle, and shouldn't be faulted for that.

[JustMike]

Of course, Ward-Prowse wasn't the only player to get criticised in the fiasco League Cup game v. Palace, but Ben Reeves sub. app. at Brighton brought some rather vicious judgements from " some fans " - and it's hardly logical to condemn someone on the basis of a 30 min.sub. outing in a poor game that we lost anyway!

 

Must have missed that. If it was on here then im not surprised, main thing is it doesn't happen in the stands

[John Boy Saint]

The Gulf between the Academy and the first team is immense, its a bit like getting onto a boat that is not tied to the quayside, you either get on board with confidence, or a bit of a wobble, or you just fall down the gap into the sea!

 

I can remember Gareth Bale playing in the Academy final v Villa he had been playing in the 1st team for a little while but as it was his band of Brothers Georges Prost made sure he was involved. Well very quickly you saw that with a handful of 1st team games under his belt how much more assured and mature he was compared to his team mates. Similar could be said about Wayne Bridge playing in the first team he was first man on everyone's team sheet, when he came back from Japan 2002 you instantly saw that he had gone up a few levels just through going to the world cup.

 

In these days of fans and media judging a teams success by the money they blow on transfers for the nippers to make it onto the main stage is even more of a struggle, look at our very own Jack Cork a product of Chelsea, a smashing player for us and everywhere he was sent out on loan to but not a a sniff of getting into the Chelsea team. People questioned the boy Sturridge playing for Chelsea simply because he cost nowt and had no pedegree.

The pressure is far greater today for a nipper than in the days of Shearer MLT et al when for certain Internet trolls were not sowing the seeds of doubt into the minds of the week and so called media pundits starting the doubts in the first place.

[VectisSaint]

Lallana was dreadful his debut, v Plymouth if I remember correctly. Didn't help he played right wing.

 

Debuts don't show much with young players as besides settling in to a new standard, they're often playing a different position to that which they end up. Many have started badly and then done well. Not just first club debuts, I believe Bale struggled for a while at Spurs. Not just young players either, Claus was pathetic on his debut v Forest.

Lallana made his debut against Yeovil when we won 5-2. He looked decent but nothing particularly outstanding.