Turkish Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 How bad do we have to be to give them a game? Butterfield and Holmes have both done well when called up this season. Holmes looked good against Watford and scored a good goal. Butterfield played well in his game and can also cover in midfield. Dickson IMO is a far better left back than Harding and was decent last season but cant get a kick. Why? If i were any of them i'd be banging on Niges door asking questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 you make out we are getting relegated.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 I think at least a couple of those should have been played in the last two, if nothing else to give some of our regulars a rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 Coz they are vying for positions where we have enough quality. If one of those was a CB or a striker it might be a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avenue Saint Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 Coz they are vying for positions where we have enough quality. If one of those was a CB or a striker it might be a different story. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 you make out we are getting relegated.... His question is still valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 Was disapointed to see Holmes left on the bench on the weekend when we were clearly crying out for some width after the sending off. The other two are competing for spots with our better players and have been unable to dislodge them can't say I've been disapointed with either right or left back this season so Butters and Dickson can have few complaints. If only we had a surplus of strikers and centre backs too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 I know it's easy to be an armchair expert, but IMO after Rickie got sent off, we should have left DC up front on his own, brought on Holmes to have Holmes (LM), Lallana (AM) and Guly (RM) supporting DC in attack. Holmes has looked decent in the few brief spells we've seen him recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 Bloody good question. Butterfield could have done a job on the right of midfield yesterday, Holmes on the left and both would have tightened things up when Rickie went off. Dickson is another option for left side of midfield so Lallana could have gone to the right. They woyuld certainly offer more options than Reeves and Forte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 For my money Fox has been a good signing but I still don't understand why we targeted that position over others in the Summer - Dickson gave a good account of himself when utilised towards the end of last season and really could still do a job (even at LM, potentially pushing Adam onto the right?) Not sure exactly what it is about Holmes but often the rest of the team seem to cut him out when he's on the pitch. He'll be hungry for the ball in acres of space on the flank but the ball will almost universally be distributed elsewhere. Overall though I'm not entirely sure what he can add to the team other than cover. Butterfield is surely just a casualty of Richardson's contributions to the team so far this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 (edited) Forte made sense yesterday - NA obviously thinks he can lead the line as he did against Brighton last year and in the cup games. Having his pace on the counter was useful as Brighton were pushing men up to exploit the sending off. DC cannot lead the line. If anything he faded after Lambert went off. Holmes has got the toughest position in the squad, playing back-up for Lallana. The same is true to a lesser extent with Dickson who has £1.8m signing and a L1 player/team of the year ahead of him. And it would make no sense to drop Richardson for Butterfield who's looked OK when starting. In theory, both could play together with Richardson at RM but there are more natural combos around, especially with SDR hitting a bit of form and Guly reverting to midfield. Nobody knew Guly would go off with an injury nor that Lambert would get sent. Ordinarily with Schneiderlin and Fonte fit, we've been able to bring on another CB and CMd in order to tighten things. The five sub rule doesn't help. But ts pretty clear why Holmes, Butterfield and Dickson haven't seen alot of time. Edited 3 January, 2012 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_lambden Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 I think Dickson will probably be off this month, but Holmes and Butterfield will most likely start at Coventry Saturday if we're going to continue our Cup rotation policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2012 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2012 (edited) Forte made sense yesterday - NA obviously thinks he can lead the line as he did against Brighton last year and in the cup games. Having his pace on the counter was useful as Brighton were pushing men up to exploit the sending off. DC cannot lead the line. If anything he faded after Lambert went off. Holmes has got the toughest position in the squad, playing back-up for Lallana. The same is true to a lesser extent with Dickson who has £1.8m signing and a L1 player/team of the year ahead of him. And it would make no sense to drop Richardson for Butterfield who's looked OK when starting. In theory, both could play together with Richardson at RM but there are more natural combos around, especially with SDR hitting a bit of form and Guly reverting to midfield. Nobody knew Guly would go off with an injury nor that Lambert would get sent. Ordinarily with Schneiderlin and Fonte fit, we've been able to bring on another CB and CMd in order to tighten things. The five sub rule doesn't help. But ts pretty clear why Holmes, Butterfield and Dickson haven't seen alot of time. He has played well on the right when coming on. Watford at home for example. I dont understand why he wasn't give a chance with Chaplows injury. He's intellegent, got a bit of quality in his delivery. I would pick him ahead of SDR. Although he doesn't have his pace his final ball and delivery is far better. Dickson is a decent left back and midfielder, better than Harding IMO. He cant even get on the bench. It's a waste of a decent player. Edited 3 January, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2012 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2012 you make out we are getting relegated.... 8 Points from 8 games is relegation form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 IMO this is another case of players ability improving in fans eyes by not playing, simply not good enough for this division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 8 Points from 8 games is relegation form. if only the season was 8 games long..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2012 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2012 IMO this is another case of players ability improving in fans eyes by not playing' date=' simply not good enough for this division[/quote'] Not quite. I've always thought Dickson was better than Harding. Holmes has ability, that is not in doubt. It's just his fitness that it's in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 Not quite. I've always thought Dickson was better than Harding. Holmes has ability, that is not in doubt. It's just his fitness that it's in question. maybe but IS Dickson better than Fox , and who would Holmes replace? i have not posted on the after game thread but until Lambert's dismissal we were bossing the game yesterday, had a goal chalked off by poor officials. the result was poor in the end but until the dismissal we played better than we have for weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 He has played well on the right when coming on. Watford at home for example. I dont understand why he wasn't give a chance with Chaplows injury. He's intellegent, got a bit of quality in his delivery. Dickson is a decent left back and midfielder, better than Harding IMO. He cant even get on the bench. True about Holmes; but you've gotta ask yourself if you would've started him ahead of Schneiderlin and SDR on the right. I'm not so sure. Still he's probably deserved more time in the league than the few mins he got up at Donny. The injury after the Watford game didn't help. You can speculate about Dickson and Butterfield; but I'm quite happy that the 16 we've generally put out has been the strongest 16 at our disposal. IMO the real problem is that the 16 and fringe players around it just aren't good enough to get us up. If anything, Dickson, Holmes and Butterfield are part of the problem not the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2012 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2012 (edited) maybe but IS Dickson better than Fox , and who would Holmes replace? i have not posted on the after game thread but until Lambert's dismissal we were bossing the game yesterday, had a goal chalked off by poor officials. the result was poor in the end but until the dismissal we played better than we have for weeks Holmes on at right midfield. He's done well there previously this season. It's him more than anyone with the absense of Chaplow that i dont understand why he's not at least been given a start. Does it worry you the way we disintegrated after Lambers dismissal. Awful without Lambert at Doncaster as well, only recall us having one shot. Now we are without him for 3 games. Worrying that a team relys so heavily on one player and we have no one else to lean on. Edited 3 January, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 8 Points from 8 games is relegation form. It may be releagtion form if we had only played 8 games, but when we already have 47 points, a point per remaining game would still get us well into the top half, so stop talking twaddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2012 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2012 It may be releagtion form if we had only played 8 games, but when we already have 47 points, a point per remaining game would still get us well into the top half, so stop talking twaddle. Would you be happy with that after the start we've had? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 Neither Dickson or Holmes are good enough for us anymore in my eyes. Dickson wasn't great in L1 for us either. He'll probably go back there to be honest. Holmes was never the fastest player, but he's lost even more pace with his injuries and for a wide man he is very slow. I'd like to see him go out on loan and see if he can play 10/20 odd games though, would be good for him. Butters is injured afaik, has been carrying niggles most of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 How bad do we have to be to give them a game? Butterfield and Holmes have both done well when called up this season. Holmes looked good against Watford and scored a good goal. Butterfield played well in his game and can also cover in midfield. Dickson IMO is a far better left back than Harding and was decent last season but cant get a kick. Why? If i were any of them i'd be banging on Niges door asking questions. I suppose ...because we have too many full backs and midfielders already - and none of the aforementioned ..is a striker! NOTE : YES... I know Butterfield scored a hat-trick in a cup game for Palace, but I don't think he's scored much since ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_John Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 IMO I don't think Dickson will play another game for us as it will cost us at least £25k (poss up to £30k with the 20% clause), and that money would be better spent elsewhere. He has made 29 appearances for us and there is another payment to Brentford at 30. http://www.football-league.co.uk/footballleaguenews/20100803/dickson-compensation-fee-set_2293334_2109797 The decision of the Professional Football Compensation Committee (PFCC) meeting held on Monday 2 August 2010 in London in relation to the registration of Ryan Dickson with Southampton is as follows: • The PFCC decided that Southampton should pay Brentford an initial compensation fee of £125,000. • Additionally, Southampton is to pay Brentford a further £25,000 after the player has made 10, 20, 30 and 40 appearances i.e. a total further payment of up to £100,000. • Southampton should also pay Brentford a further sum of £25,000 if Southampton is promoted to the Championship in the next three seasons assuming the player remains at the club. • Brentford should receive 20% of any profit made by Southampton in selling the player to another club at any point in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky morris Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 Butterfield had a cracking game against Boro, but Frazer has been excellent this season. I would have had Butterfield playing Rught midfield yesterday with Connolly up front with Lambert & Guly on the bench. Personally dont think Fox is any better than Harding who is not much better than Dickson. All musch of a muchness IMHO. The difference is Fox cost £1.8m & he has not lived up to that price tag!! Holmes is decent & deserves a chance, but I think yesterday told us beyond doubt that Adkins does not rate him. All 3 will be shipped out IMHO in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2012 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2012 So are you all saying that the squad which was hailed recently as the greatest in Saints history in some quarters is not actually as good and behind the first XI we are seriously lacking any quality. it seems so from these posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky morris Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 I certainly did not say we had the best squad in history!!! And yes we do lack quality in depth. If you go back to the thread about what could hurt us the most - a lot of us said losing Lambert would really hurt us & we dont have an alternative without him. Looks like thats the postioning we find ourselves in!! I would pay £2m for Jutkevic from Cov right now & play him up front alongside RL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2012 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2012 I certainly did not say we had the best squad in history!!! And yes we do lack quality in depth. If you go back to the thread about what could hurt us the most - a lot of us said losing Lambert would really hurt us & we dont have an alternative without him. Looks like thats the postioning we find ourselves in!! I would pay £2m for Jutkevic from Cov right now & play him up front alongside RL!! some people did mate...... Agree on Jutkevic, he'd be a good fit for us and like you say can also play with lambert not just as cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 Holmes on at right midfield. He's done well there previously this season. It's him more than anyone with the absense of Chaplow that i dont understand why he's not at least been given a start. Does it worry you the way we disintegrated after Lambers dismissal. Awful without Lambert at Doncaster as well, only recall us having one shot. Now we are without him for 3 games. Worrying that a team relys so heavily on one player and we have no one else to lean on. not sure if we disintegrated, the second goal was a rocket which is just one of those things. More concerned that we are wasting good chances away from home and not ruthless enough. I started a thread recently about long range shooting because the last few games both Home and Away we have tried to walk it in, no Saints player looks like scoring from outside the box and when they do shoot no one follows it in. IMO NA needs an alternative plan, which is more a mixture of pass/move and direct when things are not going right. Scrappy 0-0 or 1-0 wins are acceptable between now and May, sod the entertainment lets get the results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 not sure if we disintegrated, the second goal was a rocket which is just one of those things. More concerned that we are wasting good chances away from home and not ruthless enough. I started a thread recently about long range shooting because the last few games both Home and Away we have tried to walk it in, no Saints player looks like scoring from outside the box and when they do shoot no one follows it in. IMO NA needs an alternative plan, which is more a mixture of pass/move and direct when things are not going right. Scrappy 0-0 or 1-0 wins are acceptable between now and May, sod the entertainment lets get the results It could well be said that we've been trying to walk it in all season. Partly lack of shooting ability throughout the side and partly an instruction from the management, in terms of not wasting possession unnecessarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 It could well be said that we've been trying to walk it in all season. Partly lack of shooting ability throughout the side and partly an instruction from the management, in terms of not wasting possession unnecessarily. It's not a case of walking it in,our opposition closes us down most of the time,if you look at the game yesterday a lot of Brighton's efforts became possible because we didn't close them down quickly enough, Cork the main culprit in the cases leading to both goals.Dickson used to do the same last year, just ball watch until it was too late and then make a half-hearted lunge. Cork should have shut Sparrow down but he didn't.Most professional footballes can stick it in one of the top corners from 30 yds if they get a freebie,we never seem to get that room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 (edited) So are you all saying that the squad which was hailed recently as the greatest in Saints history in some quarters is not actually as good and behind the first XI we are seriously lacking any quality. it seems so from these posts. ....not by me it wasn't. I think the regular first team is good, but few of the " shadow squad " ever look like pushing for a place. We didn't buy the extra striker (we bid for - in the summer), and didn't loan one in November., hence no cover ...now No Lambert! When we knew Jaidi's injury was serious, and then the Seaborne incident...we should have been MORE positive....thank God we signed Hooiveld! Edited 3 January, 2012 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 some people did mate...... Agree on Jutkevic, he'd be a good fit for us and like you say can also play with lambert not just as cover. Jutkevic is the one forward I'd really like us to sign. I'll be really disappointed if he ends up at Boro. I agree about Dickson too, he's been really unlucky not to get a game considering how consistantly sh*t Harding is. He would have still been on the pitch at half time yesterday if he didn't have the first touch of a tree! Interesting to see Dickson warming up with the team before the match yesterday, maybe he's not that far away from a game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 It could well be said that we've been trying to walk it in all season. Partly lack of shooting ability throughout the side and partly an instruction from the management, in terms of not wasting possession unnecessarily. I don't think we've been walking it in, at least in terms of trying to score the perfect goal. We've been pretty direct, at least since the Burnley game when we turned the game around by hitting Lambert on the flanks. Same was true at Cardiff. I think we've been going more and more direct and have struggled whenever Lambert's struggled in the air. That's why another target man is a must. We struggle because we don't gamble enough and don't have the midfielders who can attack from deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 I don't think we've been walking it in, at least in terms of trying to score the perfect goal. We've been pretty direct, at least since the Burnley game when we turned the game around by hitting Lambert on the flanks. Same was true at Cardiff. I think we've been going more and more direct and have struggled whenever Lambert's struggled in the air. That's why another target man is a must. We struggle because we don't gamble enough and don't have the midfielders who can attack from deep. We fannyed about with the ball too much yesterday rather than getting it in the box quickly. I'm seriously starting to think Hammond get fined every time he plays the ball forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 (edited) We fannyed about with the ball too much yesterday rather than getting it in the box quickly. I'm seriously starting to think Hammond get fined every time he plays the ball forward. Yesterday was a change from the type of football we've been playing recently and I thought we were better for it. The football was much more varied and played at a higher tempo. Direct football works but not when the ball is passed sideways for an eternity before it is released, CB's have Lambert in their back pocket (by fair means or foul) and nobody's close enough or got the dynamism to run beyond Lambert. And all of those things have been present in recent weeks. Edited 3 January, 2012 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainchris Posted 3 January, 2012 Share Posted 3 January, 2012 Not quite. I've always thought Dickson was better than Harding. Holmes has ability, that is not in doubt. It's just his fitness that it's in question. Harding is a far better team player than Fox and actually links with AL much better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 7 January, 2012 Share Posted 7 January, 2012 How bad do we have to be to give them a game? Butterfield and Holmes have both done well when called up this season. Holmes looked good against Watford and scored a good goal. Butterfield played well in his game and can also cover in midfield. Dickson IMO is a far better left back than Harding and was decent last season but cant get a kick. Why? If i were any of them i'd be banging on Niges door asking questions. Don't really disagree with your reasoning Turkish, but it looks like Dickson's sojourn with Yeovil will either be ; a) a month of games to bring him upto scratch to challenge for a first team shirt when he gets back, or b) a loan...leading to an extended loan ..and an eventual move at the end of the season. Have to wait to see the outcome of the other two you mentioned. NOTE : Butterfields contract goes out in June, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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