Happy Tory New Year!

[pap]

Most politicians are self serving money grabbing c/nts, but at least with the Tories they don't try to hide it. When you've got the likes of Denham and Watson with their snouts in the trough it is worse because these people represent a party that is supposed to be left wing.

 

I think you were born before your time, dune. You would have had a field day with Stalin.

[dune]

I think you were born before your time, dune. You would have had a field day with Stalin.

 

I'm ahead of my time. I detest Socialism/Communism because it is a failed philosophy. The Conservative party is the party of the working classes because it is the party of small government and empowering people. Instead of high taxation and distribution I believe in low taxation and letting people spend their own money. This encourages entrepreneurs and creates jobs.

[Wade Garrett]

Most politicians are self serving money grabbing c/nts, but at least with the Tories they don't try to hide it. When you've got the likes of Denham and Watson with their snouts in the trough it is worse because these people represent a party that is supposed to be left wing.

 

Oh for the days of real conviction politicians such as Enoch Powell - a Tory who was loved by his working class constituents and the nation.

 

Lunatic

[dune]

Lunatic

 

It's amazing how often those the left call "loons" are proved right...

[pap]

I'm ahead of my time. I detest Socialism/Communism because it is a failed philosophy. The Conservative party is the party of the working classes because it is the party of small government and empowering people. Instead of high taxation and distribution I believe in low taxation and letting people spend their own money. This encourages entrepreneurs and creates jobs.

 

I think you've missed the point, which was that left-wing doesn't necessarily equal nice guy.

 

Anyway, since you have provided more food for thought, allow me to reciprocate. Capitalism is a failed philosophy. It has never worked globally. Might have looked good from the perspective of this sceptred isle for a long time, but the wheels are coming off here too.

 

Your commitment to low tax is commendable, but it only really works if you have a high volume of people in employment. Years ago, we might have been able to export our way out of trouble. However, that brilliant system we call capitalism gravitates toward lowest cost, meaning that effectively, those jobs are staying in the Far East.

[dune]

Your commitment to low tax is commendable, but it only really works if you have a high volume of people in employment. Years ago, we might have been able to export our way out of trouble. However, that brilliant system we call capitalism gravitates toward lowest cost, meaning that effectively, those jobs are staying in the Far East.

 

Buying cheap products produced by slave labour (which is essentially what buying from far east sweat shops is) is a problem. I try not to, not because of some high brow moral conviction, but because mass produced asian products are crap. You're basically throwing money down the drain. You don't have much choice when it comes to electrical items, but when it comes to furniture and other items around the house I very rarely buy new anymore. What's the logic of paying hundreds for a chip board flat pack, or some tacky ornament, when you can buy antique/second hand quality for the same price or less that will hold/appreciate in value?

[pap]

Buying cheap products produced by slave labour (which is essentially what buying from far east sweat shops is) is a problem.

 

...created by global capitalism.

 

I try not to, not because of some high brow moral conviction, but because mass produced asian products are crap. You're basically throwing money down the drain. You don't have much choice when it comes to electrical items....

 

...which are all made in the Far East because of global capitalism. Not only that, but all the jobs around them (supply chain, ra ra ra) are there too.

 

Nice as it is to benefit from your invaluable guide to buying new (old?!) furniture, you're dodging the point. The very system you're upholding is fecked. Capitalism doesn't work, has never worked and can never work. Used to be the case that we could turn a blind-eye to capitalism's casualties. Now, with us on the sick list, I'm not so sure.

[dune]

...created by global capitalism.

 

 

 

...which are all made in the Far East because of global capitalism. Not only that, but all the jobs around them (supply chain, ra ra ra) are there too.

 

Nice as it is to benefit from your invaluable guide to buying new (old?!) furniture, you're dodging the point. The very system you're upholding is fecked. Capitalism doesn't work, has never worked and can never work. Used to be the case that we could turn a blind-eye to capitalism's casualties. Now, with us on the sick list, I'm not so sure.

 

Open your f/cking eyes. It's not capitalism that has created the mess, IT IS SOCIALISM. The huge sovereign debt mountains is because governments (particularly in he socialist southern European states) decided to raise living stndards for people who didn't deserve to have their standards raised. You have to earn rises in living standards', not expect them as a basic human right.

[Saintandy666]

Communism has never been in place and is untested. Only those who claim to speak in its name have been in place. For what it's worth though, it's a load of rubbish if beautifully written, still rubbish. A bit like anarchism in that sense.

 

The problem is rampant free market capitalism with no other concern bar instant profit and gain. There needs to be more regulation and som balance with long term sustainability. Capitalism is the right system or at least the best we've come up with so far, but it needs some serious editing.

[dune]

Capitalism is the right system.

 

For once you say something sensible.

[Saintandy666]

For once you say something sensible.

 

I've never pretended different. But I think selectively quoting doesn't help much. As I said, capitalism in a revised form with better regulation and controls to balance its thirst for short term gain with long term sustainability.

[dune]

I've never pretended different. But I think selectively quoting doesn't help much. As I said, capitalism in a revised form with better regulation and controls to balance its thirst for short term gain with long term sustainability.

 

I'm all for more accountability. If a bank gets into trouble it should sort it's own mess out and if it can't it should be left to collapse. Never again should they have the safety net of tax payers. For this reason I do agree that high street banking should be separate from gambling den banking.

[pap]

dune, Andy:-

 

Apologies for the delay in reply. One of my New Years resolutions was spending less time on here during the day.

 

I'm amazed that you can both point to capitalism as a system that 'works'. It doesn't address human needs. It is built on the premise that growth is unlimited, and that cyclical consumption is the only way to keep it going. It also works under the assumption that market forces are "fair". I doubt that has ever been true.

 

The reality is that capitalism is anything but egalitarian.

 

Corporations swallow smaller players, high-earners pay accountants to avoid tax - yet at the same time we've got people in Africa dying of disease because they have no access to clean water, because it's too expensive. Pharmaceutical companies knowingly restrict access to live saving treatments because it'll hurt their bottom line. You only have to look at the fuss that was created when South Africa decided they were going to make their own AIDS drugs.

 

If capitalism works so well, perhaps you'd both like to comment on how it's going to extricate Britain out of its current mess. Or any of the Western democracies with money problems ( pretty much all of it at this point )?

[dune]

yet at the same time we've got people in Africa dying of disease because they have no access to clean water, because it's too expensive.

 

That's their poor governance. That's their problem. Rhodesia is a perfect example of how Africa can feed itself. Under rule of the great Ian Smith it was the bread basket of Africa, under Mugabe the people starve.

 

Ian Smith ran a capitalist nation, Mugabe runs a dictatorship initially propped up by the USSR and now propped up by communist China.

[pap]

That's their poor governance. That's their problem. Rhodesia is a perfect example of how Africa can feed itself. Under rule of the great Ian Smith it was the bread basket of Africa, under Mugabe the people starve.

 

Ian Smith ran a capitalist nation, Mugabe runs a dictatorship initially propped up by the USSR and now propped up by communist China.

 

Sigh. Where do we start?

 

In what way is China communist today?

[Saintandy666]

Pap, I agree with you on many points. Capitalism, in it's current form(that's where we differ, I think it can be changed) doesn't work. It isn't sustainable and goes for huge unsustainable booms because it only thinks about profit which isn't always in human beings interests, just look how nothing is being done about climate change. That is where the state has to come in to put some breaks on capitalism and some regulation so it isn't rampant. Though if a better system was proposed I'd be more than open to it, but most of those systems don't involve a state which I believe in.

 

Also, Dune accountability doesn't necessarily mean sustainability. It just means we allow the cock up to happy again, but blame the right people. And to bring this thread full circle, how can you as an advocate of accountability support some of the Tory honours decisions?!

[Saintandy666]

Oh and Marx would be turning in his grave if he saw what people call 'communist' China these days. China has embraced capitalism, while also having a strong controlling state. Marx hated capitalism and the state.

 

If anything, Chinas current policy state is most similar to the Conservative New Right. Embrace economic freedom, but have strict social controls. But that's a GROSS oversimplification/exaggeration.

[dune]

Sigh. Where do we start?

 

In what way is China communist today?

 

Well it isn't really, so i'll concede that point. China today is Imperialist - the best system there is. They have basically copied the age old model and the model that served us so well during our glorious days of Empire. What they do is empower tin pot leaders, make the said tin pot leaders reliant on them to retain power (and because of the crimes said leaders commit retain their very skins), and they exploit this hold they have over them. Basically what China does in Africa is exactly what we did both there and in India in the beginning. The next natural step for China is full on colonialism and there will be nothing that we or anyone else can do about it.

 

People talk about the world being a different place now and all that, but to think that is b/llocks. Human nature and the ways of mandkind are a constant and historical precedents repeat themselves over and over again. Just like when brown talked of curing boom and bust, those who think we now live in fluffy liberal world where everyone hugs trees are burying their heads in the sand.

Edited 3 January, 2012 by dune

[pap]

Pap, I agree with you on many points. Capitalism, in it's current form(that's where we differ, I think it can be changed) doesn't work.

 

Too late, in my view.

 

I'm not sure what changes you could bring about in the existing framework that could help. Problem is, there are a lot of people who are very happy with how things are right now.

 

 

It isn't sustainable and goes for huge unsustainable booms because it only thinks about profit which isn't always in human beings interests, just look how nothing is being done about climate change. That is where the state has to come in to put some breaks on capitalism and some regulation so it isn't rampant.

 

Which is all nice in theory, but would unilateral legislation be enough to deal with multinationals? If anything, the complete reverse is true. Countries are bending over backwards for large business.

 

If, as you suggest, a nation state introduces more regulation, these firms will just go to places where there is less regulation.

 

 

 

Though if a better system was proposed I'd be more than open to it, but most of those systems don't involve a state which I believe in.

 

You should really check out that Zeitgeist : Moving Forward vid I posted.

[Wes Tender]

Firstly, the article is in the Guardian. Secondly, it is by Polly Toynbee. No further comment is necessary.

[pap]

Well it isn't really, so i'll concede that point. China today is Imperialist - the best system there is. They have basically copied the age old model and the model that served us so well during our glorious days of Empire. What they do is empower tin pot leaders, make the said tin pot leaders reliant on them to retain power (and because of the crimes said leaders commit retain their very skins), and they exploit this hold they have over them. Basically what China does in Africa is exactly what we did both there and in India in the beginning. The next natural step for China is full on colonialism and there will be nothing that we or anyone else can do about it.

 

Precisely. China is the king of capitalism. There is no way within the current system to out-compete them, and they own a large part of the West's debts. I don't think China will go for colonialism at all. The time will come when they'd like their money back. It'll be interesting to see what happens then.

 

People talk about the world being a different place now and all that, but to think that is b/llocks. Human nature and the ways of mandkind are a constant and historical precedents repeat themselves over and over again. Just like when brown talked of curing boom and bust, those who think we now live in fluffy liberal world where everyone hugs trees are burying their heads in the sand.

 

Human nature is very much determined by the environment in which that human grows up. I don't accept the Western fallacy that we're all a bunch of c**ts who'd step on our own grandmothers to get one rung further up the ladder.

 

Change the environment, and you change human nature.

[dune]

The way of the world is thus: You are either a master or a slave.

 

Dune, 3/1/12.

[dune]

Precisely. China is the king of capitalism. There is no way within the current system to out-compete them, and they own a large part of the West's debts. I don't think China will go for colonialism at all. The time will come when they'd like their money back. It'll be interesting to see what happens then.

 

China is Imperialist, and they are already colonial powers much like we were under the guises of the East india Company and the South Africa company. Wakey wakey, all this is happening right in front of your eyes if you opened them and looked.

[Saintandy666]

Precisely. China is the king of capitalism. There is no way within the current system to out-compete them, and they own a large part of the West's debts. I don't think China will go for colonialism at all. The time will come when they'd like their money back. It'll be interesting to see what happens then.

 

 

 

Human nature is very much determined by the environment in which that human grows up. I don't accept the Western fallacy that we're all a bunch of c**ts who'd step on our own grandmothers to get one rung further up the ladder.

 

Change the environment, and you change human nature.

 

Oh absolutely. Our empire was from a different time. Post World War two, the days of great empires are gone. Mercantilism is dead. There's no need for a physical empire to control the world, you just need to do it financially. That's what the USA realised and how they've done so well the last century.

[dune]

Oh absolutely. Our empire was from a different time. Post World War two, the days of great empires are gone. Mercantilism is dead. There's no need for a physical empire to control the world, you just need to do it financially. That's what the USA realised and how they've done so well the last century.

 

So naive. So disregarding of history. So wrong.

[Saintandy666]

So naive. So disregarding of history. So wrong.

 

The US made absolutely sure we were riddled with debts owed to them post WW2. They made absolutely sure our empire was finished. They wanted to be top dog and they got it. And why does a country need to build a physical empire these days when globalised capitalism allows you to dominate the world without the need to occupy the world.

 

You say I'm naive. I guess you think mercantilism is still alive then?!

[Jonnyboy]

The way of the world is thus: You are either a master or a slave.

 

Dune, 3/1/12.

 

[pap]

China is Imperialist, and they are already colonial powers much like we were under the guises of the East india Company and the South Africa company. Wakey wakey, all this is happening right in front of your eyes if you opened them and looked.

 

I am well aware of China's efforts in Africa, dune. However, although the likes of the East India Company were a precursor to Queen Vic eventually being named Empress of India, I'm not sure that China can politically get away with saying that an African country belongs to them.

 

Appreciate that the distinction might not be there.

 

As for your continuing calls for me to open my eyes, you still haven't told us how the UK is going to use capitalism to get out of its capitalist crisis.

 

Don't worry though, I'm not really expecting an answer. Trick question. There is no way out.

[pap]

The way of the world is thus: You are either a master or a slave.

 

Dune, 3/1/12.

 

Or a slave who thinks he's a master, irrationally defending his masters

[dune]

Or a slave who thinks he's a master, irrationally defending his masters

 

Best not mention the fans dressed in red gimp suits..

[bridge too far]

Or a slave who thinks he's a master, irrationally defending his masters

 

Beautifully summed up!

[Jonnyboy]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2085486/As-family-led-life-privilege-face-5m-debt-said-upper-crust-recession-proof.html

 

Good to see its not just the disabled and cancer patients who are having a tough time.

[Frank's cousin]

Dune, when will you wake up and realise its 2012 and not 1900? You make suchj sweeping generalisatyions about all the political parties based on the premise on which they were founded, rather than how they ahev evolved to suit the evolving global socio-economic development - suggesting a political naiviety/complete wind up that never really adds anything constructive to any discussion...