Monk Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 What do you make of the proposal? Will it be beneficial to clubs as well as our Saints? My personal opinion is that the FL clubs such as Tranmere, Crewe and Wycombe have had a gun held to their head by PL clubs. I've got no idea where this could leave the likes of Saints, Palace and Watford as we will be awarded category one status due to our track record and current development programmes but the smaller clubs will be receiving £200k max for a player that could earn them £1m? More worryingly as a coach who wants to work professionally in youth development, I have no idea where it will leave me, as bigger clubs take on more staff, smaller clubs will gradually scrap their academies. Luckily I am at a club who this won't effect but my plan once I've finished my UEFA B licence this year was to move from my PT role into a FT academy role, potentially at a smaller club such as Watford, Palace or Bournemouth. It does have its benefits, merging more football related studies and school work, as we'll as funding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 It would be nice it you hadn't assumed everyone knew what you were talking about... ...but assuming from the "gun to head" comments that it's the new rules for academies you're referring to, I think they're terrible for fair competition and great for teams who are in the top category who want to stockpile kids on the off-chance any of them are any good, seeing as enormous transfer fees are a thing of the past when the financial fair play rules come in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 The really sad potential outcome for us is (And fortunately it will not happen) is if the blue few had still been in the premier the could take our best academy lads and we would not have a leg to stand on. I suspect there will be plenty of legal challenges ahead by clubs in the lower leagues . the bully boys of the premier leagues could really screw the future of football as we know it, if this elite **** initiative is to go ahead. What can we fans do to stop this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSaint75 Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Not all these kids will make it with a 'big' club so they will inevitably end up at a 'smaller' club without the cat1 status, the lower club will then benefit from the supposed better coaching they have received elsewhere, without having the expense of paying for the coaching, which must be a drain on resources especially if the player doesn't make the grade as a pro. There are still a lot of kids wanting to play pro football which the EPPP won't stop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 The really sad potential outcome for us is (And fortunately it will not happen) is if the blue few had still been in the premier the could take our best academy lads and we would not have a leg to stand on. I suspect there will be plenty of legal challenges ahead by clubs in the lower leagues . the bully boys of the premier leagues could really screw the future of football as we know it, if this elite **** initiative is to go ahead. What can we fans do to stop this Um, that's not the case, our academy is much more highly rated than theirs and it's not purely league status which defines a team's category (and therefore what they can do). In fact we're in the very top category, and would have been even if we didn't go up last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 The really sad potential outcome for us is (And fortunately it will not happen) is if the blue few had still been in the premier the could take our best academy lads and we would not have a leg to stand on. I suspect there will be plenty of legal challenges ahead by clubs in the lower leagues . the bully boys of the premier leagues could really screw the future of football as we know it, if this elite **** initiative is to go ahead. What can we fans do to stop this Category status is not based on what league you are in, it is based on track record, facilities, staff quality/numbers etc. Saints are going for category one regardless of promotion. Pompey will probably be category 2 or 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 saints75 why should the bully boys get the pick of the crop of these youngsters for a knock down prices, The smaller clubs need the revenues from these players if not many smaller clubs will go to the wall and football will no longer be an exciting spectacle as the big clubs will dominate the game. It will mean the likes of luke shaw will move to arse for a pittance. Get stuck in NC not only for the sake of southampton but football as a whole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Not all these kids will make it with a 'big' club so they will inevitably end up at a 'smaller' club without the cat1 status, the lower club will then benefit from the supposed better coaching they have received elsewhere, without having the expense of paying for the coaching, which must be a drain on resources especially if the player doesn't make the grade as a pro. There are still a lot of kids wanting to play pro football which the EPPP won't stop As I've said on here before, the difference is that all the "elite" clubs will be able to cherrypick and stockpile ALL the best talent (rather than just the kids near their location(s), before eventually releasing the ones they can't possibly see any future for, safe in the knowledge that any kids they miss out on can still be snapped up for a pittance as soon as they show any talent - as opposed to now, when smaller clubs can still get better players with potential to their academies and sell them on to fund the investment. Even without the changes in the tribunal arrangements which now favour the big clubs, the shift from relatively fair "local" recruitment rules to ones which allow a top academy to grab kids from anywhere is bad for competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Im looking at the fundamental issues that could affect the game MLG and the 9. The skates was a poor example I used Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 why should the bully boys get the pick of the crop of these youngsters for a knock down prices, The smaller clubs need the revenues from these players if not many smaller clubs will go to the wall and football will no longer be an exciting spectacle as the big clubs will dominate the game. It will mean the likes of luke shaw will move to arse for a pittance. Get stuck in NC not only for the sake of southampton but football as a whole The really sad potential outcome for us is (And fortunately it will not happen) is if the blue few had still been in the premier the could take our best academy lads and we would not have a leg to stand on. I suspect there will be plenty of legal challenges ahead by clubs in the lower leagues . the bully boys of the premier leagues could really screw the future of football as we know it, if this elite **** initiative is to go ahead. What can we fans do to stop this From a purely selfish point of view, Saints with the category one status they are aiming to get should benefit from the changes. So do we want to stop it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 There are a lot more knowledgeable people on here regarding this than me, so a question; What would stop all clubs getting their facilities up to scratch so that the vast majority were "Tier 1" or whatever it'll be called? Then no "poaching" can take place? Does anyone KNOW how much these acadamies cost and what would the difference be in funding needed between say being a "Cat 1" and a "Cat 2"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSaint75 Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 saints75 why should the bully boys get the pick of the crop of these youngsters for a knock down prices, The smaller clubs need the revenues from these players if not many smaller clubs will go to the wall and football will no longer be an exciting spectacle as the big clubs will dominate the game. It will mean the likes of luke shaw will move to arse for a pittance. Get stuck in NC not only for the sake of southampton but football as a whole I'm not saying they should or that it is right, I am offering an alternative opinion. Big clubs already dominate the game anyway so that won't really change. Oh, Luke Shaw won't move for a pittance as we will be cat1 but I get your point. Eventually it will all balance out except that the smaller clubs may not get to see the talent on the pitch for the few games they play, before they get snapped up anyway. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 (edited) There are a lot more knowledgeable people on here regarding this than me, so a question; What would stop all clubs getting their facilities up to scratch so that the vast majority were "Tier 1" or whatever it'll be called? Then no "poaching" can take place? In theory those behind the plan would love every academy to be category one. The FA wants to improves coaching for youngsters in order to improve the National team. However this is largely being driven through by the rich clubs in the Premier League that have an ulterior motive of mopping up all the best kids on the cheap and have the FA somewhat over a barrel. At the moment the plan allows poaching between category one clubs to still take place. However this may change as it gets refined before next season as some feel it is unnecessary to allow this. Does anyone KNOW how much these acadamies cost and what would the difference be in funding needed between say being a "Cat 1" and a "Cat 2"? To run a category one academy for a year it needs to have a minimum budget of £2.3m. I think a category two is probably half that. Plus you need the high quality facilities in place on top of the running costs. You also need to continue to have academy products playing for your first team or they take category one status away. Edited 30 December, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 My knowledge of this is limited but as usual it appears the only clubs that benefit are the big ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 My knowledge of this is limited but as usual it appears the only clubs that benefit are the rich ones (of which Saints are one). Edited it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchen_block4 Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Not all these kids will make it with a 'big' club so they will inevitably end up at a 'smaller' club without the cat1 status, the lower club will then benefit from the supposed better coaching they have received elsewhere, without having the expense of paying for the coaching, which must be a drain on resources especially if the player doesn't make the grade as a pro. There are still a lot of kids wanting to play pro football which the EPPP won't stop I find it hard to believe that big clubs won't end up hoarding players. Your theory relies on kids with potential, some of whom clubs have paid 5 or 6 figure sums for, being allowed to go for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 I find it hard to believe that big clubs won't end up hoarding players. Your theory relies on kids with potential, some of whom clubs have paid 5 or 6 figure sums for, being allowed to go for free. There will be limits as to how many players you can have registered in each age group to try to prevent mass hoarding. Also if academy products don't play for your first team they will take away category one status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 In theory those behind the plan would love every academy to be category one. The FA wants to improves coaching for youngsters in order to improve the National team. However this is largely being driven through by the rich clubs in the Premier League that have an ulterior motive of mopping up all the best kids on the cheap and have the FA somewhat over a barrel. A the moment the plan allows poaching between category one clubs to still take place. However this may change as it gets refined before next season as some feel it is unnecessary to allow this. To run a category one academy for a year it needs to have a minimum budget of £2.3m. I think a category two is probably half that. Plus you need the high quality facilities in place on top of the running costs. You also need to continue to have academy products playing for your first team or they take category one status away. Cheers. So basically this is going to allow wealthier clubs to further domiante those less well off. A bad move for English football as a whole. How many clubs can afford £2.3m+ a year on an academy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Cheers. So basically this is going to allow wealthier clubs to further domiante those less well off. A bad move for English football as a whole. How many clubs can afford £2.3m+ a year on an academy? Exactly. The tariff system for payment will also mean smaller/poorer clubs could potentially be worse off from transfer fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFC Forever Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Saints fc are already assured of being in the top group thanks to the money spent and recent stars that have come through the system at Staplewood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monk Posted 30 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Having a fair few of my lads from grassroots currently with Pompey and a very short stint working for their foundation, I will be very surprised if they are awarded category 2, they don't even dominate their own catchment area for youth. Chelsea, Saints and Bournemouth are more active down here with Spurs working Winchester. Pompeys set up is laughing stock, primadonna coaches who think they are gods gift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Will be terrible for the game, the greed of the big clubs is disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Will be terrible for the game, the greed of the big clubs is disgusting. There are lots of good things about it. For example it is going to significantly increase the number of coaching hours each kid has and puts England in line with the rest of Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 There are lots of good things about it. For example it is going to significantly increase the number of coaching hours each kid has and puts England in line with the rest of Europe. How does it increase the amount of hours coaching the kids at Crewe get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu0x Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 I've got no idea where this could leave the likes of Saints, Palace and Watford as we will be awarded category one status due to our track record and current development programmes As far as i understand it if the current proposals are implemented, there will only be about a dozen clubs currently capable of achieving Cat 1 status. The only one outside the Premier League is Southampton. Watford and Palace have absolutely no chance unless they spend fortunes they dont have on their academies to significantly update and upgrade the facilities, and (perhaps more importantly) employ more coaching staff to fulfil the requirements for full-time coaching. On this basis, the EPPP should be very good news for us, as we will be (for once) on the up side of a very uneven playing field. Having said that, theres a tendency to get all 'Football Manager' about it and just recruit everything in sight, which is not an approach that has served Chelsea well at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 How does it increase the amount of hours coaching the kids at Crewe get? Depends which category Crewe's academy is put into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monk Posted 30 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 30 December, 2011 As far as i understand it if the current proposals are implemented, there will only be about a dozen clubs currently capable of achieving Cat 1 status. The only one outside the Premier League is Southampton. Watford and Palace have absolutely no chance unless they spend fortunes they dont have on their academies to significantly update and upgrade the facilities, and (perhaps more importantly) employ more coaching staff to fulfil the requirements for full-time coaching. On this basis, the EPPP should be very good news for us, as we will be (for once) on the up side of a very uneven playing field. Having said that, theres a tendency to get all 'Football Manager' about it and just recruit everything in sight, which is not an approach that has served Chelsea well at all. Both Palace and Watford have an affiliation with two local schools and share facilities. So boarderline cat 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 December, 2011 Share Posted 30 December, 2011 Both Palace and Watford have an affiliation with two local schools and share facilities. So boarderline cat 1. They probably won't fulfil other criteria needed though. Palace are considering forking out for category 1, but will probably end up category 2. Watford certainly couldn't afford category 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 31 December, 2011 Share Posted 31 December, 2011 Depends which category Crewe's academy is put into. I think we can safely assume it wont be cat 1, not that it makes any difference because like all other small clubs they will lose money and even if they could afford an academy it wouldn't be worth it because they wont be able to sell any player for a decent amount. The whole idea is a disgrace, it means the big clubs will be able to hoover up all the decent talent on the cheap and just get bigger and richer. Chances are Luke Shaw will leave for Arsenal in the summer for a absolute pittance now, how can that be right or fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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