Assists..

[saintmatt]

A stat that gets far too little exposure in my opinion

 

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/assists/_/league/eng.2/english-league-championship?cc=5739

 

A few observations:

- A combined goals/assists table would have Lambert and Guly at the top (I think!)

- Danny Fox and Fraizer Richardson, well played

- None of our "big four" targets (Sharpe, Rodriguez, Jutkiewicz or Maynard) feature - I know we're a goalscoring machine and these guys play in poorer sides, but still

- I know we have an embarrassment of riches in CM, but that Jacob Butterfield cannot be ignored - he's managed to notch up the assists in a poorer side!

[CFSFC]

It's a stupid stat, as if you lay on 30 chances and you play with a gash forward who only notches 2 surely that's better than laying on 10 chances and a lambert type scoring 8/9.

[Dr Who?]

Agreed this is something that goes under the radar in football, as it seems to be all about goals and then keepers when it comes to clean sheets. I would like to see a complete view of teams, which includes tackles won and lost, assists as mentioned and pass completion with are all important parts of the game.

 

Also with keepers getting the praise for clean sheets, when sometimes they have very little to do, then you need to take a look at the whole team and who worked the hardest to keep the ball away from the keeper, and then distribute the praise where deserved.

 

I think stats for things like the above should be readily available, for a complete overview of our team, and geeks like me who find all this information very intetesting.

[Turkish]

People pay far too much attention to stats FFS. The only ones that really matter are points, goal scored and goals conceded. That's the trouble with having a Football manager generation of fans.

[Dr Who?]

It's a stupid stat, as if you lay on 30 chances and you play with a gash forward who only notches 2 surely that's better than laying on 10 chances and a lambert type scoring 8/9.

 

But you should use this information along with other stats to find out just who is and who is not pulling their weight. I am sure that Guly covers most ground during home games, but would like to see his tackling back stats, because of course I could run around a pitch for 90 minutes and do while refereeing, but it does not mean he does anything, but we all know Guly does. He may not win tackles but it is just applying pressure so the opposition make mistakes to give the ball back.

[saintmatt]

It's a stupid stat, as if you lay on 30 chances and you play with a gash forward who only notches 2 surely that's better than laying on 10 chances and a lambert type scoring 8/9.

 

You could equally argue goalscoring is a "stupid stat" on that basis though; if you're a good striker playing in a "gash" side that doesn't produce any chances, you won't score as many as a lesser striker playing in a good side creating a wealth of chances. Where do you draw the line in the valid vs invalid stat debate, CFSFC?

Edited 28 December, 2011 by saintmatt

[Dr Who?]

People pay far too much attention to stats FFS. The only ones that really matter are points, goal scored and goals conceded. That's the trouble with having a Football manager generation of fans.

 

Well I find it intestering as there is soooooo much more to football, than meets the moronic fans eyes! IMHO

[B Rabbit]

Well I find it intestering as there is soooooo much more to football, than meets the moronic fans eyes! IMHO

Would you rather we went up by having more points than anyone else this year.... or have the top scorer, top assist(er)...most corners, least offsides and moderate disciplinary record.

 

It's pretty black and white.... win = points = promotion. General trend would be that if you win most you are likely to have the top scorer and assist person..... but to be honest...all the matters are the points.

[Minty]

Stats help develop a picture, but you can't make any final judgements based on them alone. A good point was made above about a winger laying on chances that aren't taken... the stats would not show how productive the winger has been because his chances weren't converted. That's why, to make real judgements on players you need to have seen all their games, combined with the various stats, and now managers have ProZone which tells them far, far more than any of us will ever have access to.

 

For all the discussion about goals and assists, the key one for me is conversion rate... and ultimately, as Rabbit says, points won.

[Graffito]

Guly does not appear in the top goalscorers list yet has 9 goals. Have they got something against him?

 

Attendances - Saints could conceivably end the season with an average attendance literally double the Skate average.

 

Fair play - Saints are 3rd. Middlesborough and West Ham are near the bottom. This could cost our nearest rivals.

Brighton have more than double the number of yellows that Saints have - no surprise there. Saints have no players in the naughty boys league.

[Deano6]

People pay far too much attention to stats FFS. The only ones that really matter are points, goal scored and goals conceded. That's the trouble with having a Football manager generation of fans.

 

Someone hasn't read/watched Moneyball!

[Dr Who?]

Stats help develop a picture, but you can't make any final judgements based on them alone. A good point was made above about a winger laying on chances that aren't taken... the stats would not show how productive the winger has been because his chances weren't converted. That's why, to make real judgements on players you need to have seen all their games, combined with the various stats, and now managers have ProZone which tells them far, far more than any of us will ever have access to.

 

For all the discussion about goals and assists, the key one for me is conversion rate... and ultimately, as Rabbit says, points won.

 

But this is why stats could be used much more to develope a bigger picture of how players play key roles, which many fans miss. A prime example is the slagging of Guly which is just not justified IMO, and I am sure the stats, which include goals and points should point to this. These stats as mentioned above could have pass completion rather than an assist in the miss chances section, which n turn would go down as a missed chance for the player who 'should' have scored.

 

Yes at the end of the days goals and wins is what we are after, but if we so do choose we should have more information on individual play stats.

 

You have to admit it would make intetesting reading for most of us on here.

[saintmatt]

Well I find it intestering as there is soooooo much more to football, than meets the moronic fans eyes! IMHO

 

Thank you Doctor

 

Would you rather we went up by having more points than anyone else this year.... or have the top scorer, top assist(er)...most corners, least offsides and moderate disciplinary record.

 

It's pretty black and white.... win = points = promotion. General trend would be that if you win most you are likely to have the top scorer and assist person..... but to be honest...all the matters are the points.

 

I think we all accept that points is the critical stat, but the other stats mentioned are the best proxies available for providing an indication of who are the best performing players in a league. They paint a picture.

[Minty]

But this is why stats could be used much more to develope a bigger picture of how players play key roles, which many fans miss. A prime example is the slagging of Guly which is just not justified IMO, and I am sure the stats, which include goals and points should point to this. These stats as mentioned above could have pass completion rather than an assist in the miss chances section, which n turn would go down as a missed chance for the player who 'should' have scored.

 

Yes at the end of the days goals and wins is what we are after, but if we so do choose we should have more information on individual play stats.

 

You have to admit it would make intetesting reading for most of us on here.

I agree with all of that, and I certainly like seeing stats like these, but as to whether it would improve the level of discussion or understanding on the forum, or amongst fans, I think that's a bit hopeful... some people won't change their mind, no matter what the stats say.

[MINIBARCELONASAINT]

It's a stupid stat, as if you lay on 30 chances and you play with a gash forward who only notches 2 surely that's better than laying on 10 chances and a lambert type scoring 8/9.

 

That's where Opta excel. They don't only produce an assists chart, like every footballing hub does, but they have more in-depth analysis such as "chances created."

 

Chances created defines as "assists + key passes," so logs any balls that had the potential to lead to a goal if it wasn't for that donkey up front with a poor "Chance conversion" which is a "calculation of goals scored divided by shots attempted (excluding blocked attempts)."

 

If stats and analysis really appeal to you, the places to be are, apart from the obvious:

 

Opta

http://www.bettingpreview.co.uk/blog/

http://www.zonalmarking.net/

[B Rabbit]

Unfortunately, they paint a picture to lead people believe Guly is a good player I've never seen someone so rubbish perform so well

[miserableoldgit]

Guly does not appear in the top goalscorers list yet has 9 goals. Have they got something against him?

 

Attendances - Saints could conceivably end the season with an average attendance literally double the Skate average.

 

Fair play - Saints are 3rd. Middlesborough and West Ham are near the bottom. This could cost our nearest rivals.

Brighton have more than double the number of yellows that Saints have - no surprise there. Saints have no players in the naughty boys league.

They`re probably Saints fans!

[saintmatt]

That's where Opta excel. They don't only produce an assists chart, like every footballing hub does, but they have more in-depth analysis such as "chances created."

 

Chances created defines as "assists + key passes," so logs any balls that had the potential to lead to a goal if it wasn't for that donkey up front with a poor "Chance conversion" which is a "calculation of goals scored divided by shots attempted (excluding blocked attempts)."

 

If stats and analysis really appeal to you, the places to be are, apart from the obvious:

 

Opta

http://www.bettingpreview.co.uk/blog/

http://www.zonalmarking.net/

 

I'm afraid the moment you get subjective, a statistic becomes fundamentally flawed. A statistic is defined by its objectivity.

[timb289]

People pay far too much attention to stats FFS. The only ones that really matter are points, goal scored and goals conceded. That's the trouble with having a Football manager generation of fans.

 

I think stats like these help to make a reasoned descion about a players quality. Three of our rumoured striker transfer targets are in the bottom 4 of the CC; therefore if you just take team points, GS and GC into consideration then we should steer well clear of all three.

[VectisSaint]

Guly does not appear in the top goalscorers list yet has 9 goals. Have they got something against him?

Looks like they have just missed him out, he shows up on other top scorers lists with 9. Correction, they have only credited him with 5 goals!!

Why are all of our players so formally named, Richard Lambert, Guilherme do Prado, Daniel Fox? I assume Sharp will become William when he signs for us.

Edited 28 December, 2011 by VectisSaint
Correction

[SuperSAINT]

I know we have an embarrassment of riches in CM, but that Jacob Butterfield cannot be ignored - he's managed to notch up the assists in a poorer side!

 

Agree with both points re: Jacob Butterfield. Very good player, available in January (But we do have an embarrassment of riches in CM).

[MINIBARCELONASAINT]

That's where Opta excel. They don't only produce an assists chart, like every footballing hub does, but they have more in-depth analysis such as "chances created."

 

Chances created defines as "assists + key passes," so logs any balls that had the potential to lead to a goal if it wasn't for that donkey up front with a poor "Chance conversion" which is a "calculation of goals scored divided by shots attempted (excluding blocked attempts)."

 

If stats and analysis really appeal to you, the places to be are, apart from the obvious:

 

Opta

http://www.bettingpreview.co.uk/blog/

http://www.zonalmarking.net/

 

 

I'm afraid the moment you get subjective, a statistic becomes fundamentally flawed. A statistic is defined by its objectivity.

 

Luckily there is no subjectivity then, Matt. Opta are statisticians and do well to accurately quantify most features of the game. Therefore, they've defined key passes too:

 

Key Pass:

1. A pass/cross that is instrumental in creating a goal-scoring opportunity, for example a corner or free-kick to a player who then assists an attempt, a chance-creating through ball orcross into a dangerous position.

 

2. The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball having an attempt at goal without scoring.

 

I only have three posts a day, so the full lunk can be found here http://www.optasports.com/about/news/feature-opta's-football-action-definitions.html

[Saint_Jonny]

So according to all of the stattos' Guly is a very valuable player...Interesting.

[Turkish]

I think stats like these help to make a reasoned descion about a players quality. Three of our rumoured striker transfer targets are in the bottom 4 of the CC; therefore if you just take team points, GS and GC into consideration then we should steer well clear of all three.

 

Stats tell you nothing about a players mentality, fitness, ability to adapt to a style, work rate. All of these things are equally important at this level. I find it hilarious that so many people think a player has a set level of ability usually based on stats.

Obviously some players are just sh*t and not up to it. Here are some more stats for you

 

 

Wayne Henessy has made 81 saves more than any goalkeeper. In that case he's got to be better than Joe Hart in that case right?

Faurlin has made 74 tackles, more than any other defender. in that case he's got to be better than Phil Jones, Rio Ferdinand, Vidic etc right?

Willams at Swansea is the third highest passer. He's got to be better than Nasri, Silva, etc right?

Ba is the second highest scorer with a 31% goal to shot ratio, give me him over Rooney, Aguearo, Balotelli, Van Persie etc right?

[Minty]

Wayne Henessy has made 81 saves more than any goalkeeper. In that case he's got to be better than Joe Hart in that case right?

Faurlin has made 74 tackles, more than any other defender. in that case he's got to be better than Phil Jones, Rio Ferdinand, Vidic etc right?

Willams at Swansea is the third highest passer. He's got to be better than Nasri, Silva, etc right?

Ba is the second highest scorer with a 31% goal to shot ratio, give me him over Rooney, Aguearo, Balotelli, Van Persie etc right?

No one has actually said that...

 

Most people on this thread have been quite balanced and said that stats can be interesting and contribute to the bigger picture. You're 100% right about mentality and adaptability etc. Anyone who think stats tell the whole picture is clearly wrong.

[timb289]

Stats tell you nothing about a players mentality, fitness, ability to adapt to a style, work rate. All of these things are equally important at this level. I find it hilarious that so many people think a player has a set level of ability usually based on stats.

Obviously some players are just sh*t and not up to it. Here are some more stats for you

 

 

Wayne Henessy has made 81 saves more than any goalkeeper. In that case he's got to be better than Joe Hart in that case right?

Faurlin has made 74 tackles, more than any other defender. in that case he's got to be better than Phil Jones, Rio Ferdinand, Vidic etc right?

Willams at Swansea is the third highest passer. He's got to be better than Nasri, Silva, etc right?

Ba is the second highest scorer with a 31% goal to shot ratio, give me him over Rooney, Aguearo, Balotelli, Van Persie etc right?

 

So you don't think any of these type of stats provide any useful information about a players form? Obviously you do not make any decisions based solely on these stats, but I do think they should be taken into consideration.

[CFSFC]

You could equally argue goalscoring is a "stupid stat" on that basis though; if you're a good striker playing in a "gash" side that doesn't produce any chances, you won't score as many as a lesser striker playing in a good side creating a wealth of chances. Where do you draw the line in the valid vs invalid stat debate, CFSFC?

 

You've just agreed with me without knowing it... Your right if lambert was playing for Doncaster he wouldnt be top scorer. good players progress bad ones don't.

[Turkish]

So you don't think any of these type of stats provide any useful information about a players form? Obviously you do not make any decisions based solely on these stats, but I do think they should be taken into consideration.

 

Have i said that? Stats dont tell the whole story. A lot of our crowd get on Gulys back and dont rate him, yet the stats show him to be as good as Sharp and better than Maynard, players people are getting hardons over signing and who most of us would pick ahead of Guly. You know a good player and you know a bad player if you've got half an ounce of football knowledge.

[CFSFC]

Stats tell you nothing about a players mentality, fitness, ability to adapt to a style, work rate. All of these things are equally important at this level. I find it hilarious that so many people think a player has a set level of ability usually based on stats.

Obviously some players are just sh*t and not up to it. Here are some more stats for you

 

 

Wayne Henessy has made 81 saves more than any goalkeeper. In that case he's got to be better than Joe Hart in that case right?

Faurlin has made 74 tackles, more than any other defender. in that case he's got to be better than Phil Jones, Rio Ferdinand, Vidic etc right?

Willams at Swansea is the third highest passer. He's got to be better than Nasri, Silva, etc right?

Ba is the second highest scorer with a 31% goal to shot ratio, give me him over Rooney, Aguearo, Balotelli, Van Persie etc right?

 

This ( I think that's what you cool web kids say )

[sandwichsaint]

So according to all of the stattos' Guly is a very valuable player...Interesting.

 

TBF anyone with half a brain would know that a player with 9 goals and a decent bunch of assists in half a season (of which a lot of games have been spent out of position) is a valuable player.

[bpsaint]

According to the football league site Richardson is currently 2 nd in the assists table with 8. Which site is correct?

 

http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/DivisionalAssists/0,,10794~20117,00.html

[miserableoldgit]

TBF anyone with half a brain would know that a player with 9 goals and a decent bunch of assists in half a season (of which a lot of games have been spent out of position) is a valuable player.

The problem is that Saints fans have always preferred a player that runs around at 100mph for 90 minutes whether they actually achieve anything or not. MLT was an exception because he delivered goals virtually from Day One. It would be interesting to see what sort of reception he would get if he was starting out with us now. After all Guly has scored goals (10 by the end of Dec) plus a high number of assists, but he is a lazy bastard apparently.

[timb289]

Have i said that? Stats dont tell the whole story. A lot of our crowd get on Gulys back and dont rate him, yet the stats show him to be as good as Sharp and better than Maynard, players people are getting hardons over signing and who most of us would pick ahead of Guly. You know a good player and you know a bad player if you've got half an ounce of football knowledge.

 

In my original comment I suggested that such stats can help when assessing a player, not that all these stats are useless as you stated. For the record I rate Guly highly, although he has his moments and his football is not always pleasing on the eye. I think a new addition in January, who ever it may be, will have their work cut out to establish themselves as a first team starter. IMHO

[Saintandy666]

Brings the Guly moaners down a peg or two. He creates lots of goals as well as scoring lots of goals. And as someone else said, points are what matters in the end, but the only way to get points is by scoring lots of goals!

[saintmatt]

Luckily there is no subjectivity then, Matt. Opta are statisticians and do well to accurately quantify most features of the game. Therefore, they've defined key passes too:

 

Key Pass:

1. A pass/cross that is instrumental in creating a goal-scoring opportunity, for example a corner or free-kick to a player who then assists an attempt, a chance-creating through ball orcross into a dangerous position.

 

2. The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball having an attempt at goal without scoring.

 

I only have three posts a day, so the full lunk can be found here http://www.optasports.com/about/news/feature-opta's-football-action-definitions.html

 

I appreciate the point you're making but I would argue that the definition itself is riddled with subjectivity, as highlighted above. What qualifies as instrumental? What is a chance?

 

The "whether it was a goal scoring opportunity" debate flares up most weekends when players are sent off for fouling their opponents when they have what the ref believes to be a goal scoring opportunity. You can bet your bottom dollar there will be pundits, managers, other referees etc who will see it differently, and that this disagreement will persist even with the benefit of replays. Obviously some decisions are stonewallers, but for this definition to pass the objectivity test, all would have to be.

[SuperMikey]

According to the football league site Richardson is currently 2 nd in the assists table with 8. Which site is correct?

 

http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/DivisionalAssists/0,,10794~20117,00.html

 

I think the FL site is more reliable, Frazer seems to have put in the crosses for most of our goals this season. He's got assists for at least 4 Lambert goals and 2 or 3 Guly goals as well, including one on Monday.

[MINIBARCELONASAINT]

I appreciate the point you're making but I would argue that the definition itself is riddled with subjectivity, as highlighted above. What qualifies as instrumental? What is a chance?

 

The "whether it was a goal scoring opportunity" debate flares up most weekends when players are sent off for fouling their opponents when they have what the ref believes to be a goal scoring opportunity. You can bet your bottom dollar there will be pundits, managers, other referees etc who will see it differently, and that this disagreement will persist even with the benefit of replays. Obviously some decisions are stonewallers, but for this definition to pass the objectivity test, all would have to be.

 

If this posts it will be the last of my day. I agree with you, I was just providing some useful links for stats to be interpreted because that's what they need to be. It is no good just looking at stats and like Turkish said, pointing out that say Faurlin is better than Vidic because he has made more tackles; you have to look at how many has he tried, and therefore who was the highest tackle success rate. If this example is to be continued, who was the best tackle rate in which thirds of the pitch etc.

 

Stats are often misused purely to add weight to an article, however if used correctly, numbers are far more accurate than opinion, especially here.

 

Cheers Matt.