Where was Jesus. . .

[pap]

No, that can't be right. You only ever seem to post on threads about Christianity, and always strongly in defence of the mythological bearded one (no, not Zeus, that other fictional chap). I find your stoic defence of Christianity rather illogical if you are indeed not a believer.

 

Why don't you defend the rights of other religious beliefs? Afterall, there is nothing stupid about worshipping an invisible made up magical entity, for whom there is absolutely no evidence of their existence.

 

I respect your right to think whatever you wish to, but if you believe in fairies, goblins, jesus, posidon, the great spaghetti monster or some other made up nonsense, I reserve the right to publicly ridicule your beliefs. Especially when our messed up society allows schools to indoctrinate the innocent and naive into believing such nonsense; when our political debates seek the views of these mythbelieving clerics; and when the whole unsubstantiated nonsense is thrown down our throats at this time of year (apparently our winter celebrations, have nothing to do with the Winter Solstice, but are about some boy who was born in the middle east or something).

 

If I ever find out that my tax has been used to bolster the coffers of these myth believers in will be furious.

 

I am genuinely offended by religion on a daily basis.

 

Good post, joensuu. You shouldn't have to write it in this day and age, but good post regardless.

[Saintandy666]

Is there not a difference between debating and deliberately causing distress?

 

I don't like the argument that athiests should shut up. You can't open a paper or watch the news on any single day without seeing some religious leader speaking for God or murder done in the name of God.

[nathan]

We all know that DOG purely started this thread to try to wind up those with Christian beliefs. Those who don't see that, are either severely blinkered or just ignorant. He has set out to wind up a certain group of people which I would presume is against the forum rules. I wouldn't ever really say I've made a choice to be a Christian, it's always been part of me, just like my race, or my sexuality (which I would argue is as much of a choice i.e. there isn't one, there is no way that I could not be a Christian, just like someone who likes the same sex could be straight).

 

The other issue with regards to the existence of God is a whole other argument. One that I don't really want to get into with people who simply won't ever listen to my side of the argument (I believe in God). The fact is we don't know if there is a God or not, that I will accept, but you're ultimate dismissal of God without knowing if he exists, is the same as my belief that he does exist. Accept that. The truest position is to be agnostic but like you, I have experienced, read, and lived certain things that make me believe rather than not, just like you choose to go the other way.

 

Also, on a side note, whether you believe in him as the son of God or not, Jesus was real, he did exist and there are numerous records to support this.

[Rattlehead]

The fact is we don't know if there is a God or not, that I will accept, but you're ultimate dismissal of God without knowing if he exists, is the same as my belief that he does exist. Accept that.

Blah blah blah, but given the available evidence/facts, it is totally illogical to believe that god exists. Accept that.

 

btw, your not you're. Accept that too. Where was god for your spellcheck?

[pap]

We all know that DOG purely started this thread to try to wind up those with Christian beliefs. Those who don't see that, are either severely blinkered or just ignorant. He has set out to wind up a certain group of people which I would presume is against the forum rules. I wouldn't ever really say I've made a choice to be a Christian, it's always been part of me, just like my race, or my sexuality (which I would argue is as much of a choice i.e. there isn't one, there is no way that I could not be a Christian, just like someone who likes the same sex could be straight).

 

With respect, yes there is. First of all, you haven't always been a Christian. You were not born a Christian, so something must have taken you down that path, be it parental/peer influence.

 

Plenty of atheists are people who were weaned on Christian belief and rejected the ideas within. I used to believe myself. Gradually, as my own understanding of the world came into ever increasing conflict with the absolute truths of the Bible, something had to give. I got to a point where I could no longer reconcile those conflicts. All power to you if you can hold it together in your own head, but you are wrong to say that Christians have no choice. If there are restrictions, they're in your own head.

 

The other issue with regards to the existence of God is a whole other argument. One that I don't really want to get into with people who simply won't ever listen to my side of the argument (I believe in God). The fact is we don't know if there is a God or not, that I will accept, but you're ultimate dismissal of God without knowing if he exists, is the same as my belief that he does exist. Accept that. The truest position is to be agnostic but like you, I have experienced, read, and lived certain things that make me believe rather than not, just like you choose to go the other way.

 

Let's not conflate the validity of Christianity with the question of whether there is a god. Plenty of other religions posit the existence of one or more supernatural beings.

 

You're falling into the cannot prove/disprove conundrum, but you're leaving out convenient details which indicate that the Bible is the work of man instead of the word of God. Let's take Genesis as an example. In that book, the creation of the sun and the moon is described as God providing a light for the day and a light for the night. Now lets consider what we know about the sun and the moon. First, the sun is there all the time, irrespective of whether we see it or not. Next, we now know that the moon doesn't have any light of its own, and is merely reflected light from the sun.

 

The account given in Genesis doesn't even come close to the scientific reality, and there is a big reason for that. Likely, it was written by men who didn't have the scientific knowledge to accurately describe the phenomena of the moon and the sun, and probably not the word of an all-creating God, who certainly would have known that.

[niceandfriendly]

The fact is we don't know if there is a God or not, that I will accept, but you're ultimate dismissal of God without knowing if he exists, is the same as my belief that he does exist. Accept that.

 

No, I certainly will not accept that. It's nonsensical comments like this which lead religious believers to be ridiculed and disrespected.

 

The reason we do not believe in a God, the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny is because there is no proof of these things. Therefore, our belief that the ol' mighty one doesn't exist is not the same as your belief that he does.

[um pahars]

I think there is most definitely a place in society to have a decent theological debate and for all opinions to be heard, but that is a world away from insulting people and being rude (as some have tried to point out in this thread).

 

Given the part that religion plays in the history,culture and current way of life, politics and laws of this country I think it should most definitely be on the table with regards a healthy debate etc.

 

One of the strongest atheist arguments is that organised religion does not have a monopoly on morality, respect, compassion and empathy, but I have to say some on this thread are letting the side down!!!!!

[Matthew Le God]

I wouldn't ever really say I've made a choice to be a Christian, it's always been part of me, just like my race, or my sexuality (which I would argue is as much of a choice i.e. there isn't one, there is no way that I could not be a Christian, just like someone who likes the same sex could be straight).

 

How have you "always been a Christian"? I'm guessing you were introduced to the religion because it is the religion of your parents or peers. Thus there was a time when you weren't a Christian.

 

Had you been born in a different country or time period you wouldn't have become a Christian and you would have been exposed to one of the many other thousands of human created religions. Shows how arbitrary it all is.

 

Not all religions can be right, they can all be wrong.

 

The other issue with regards to the existence of God is a whole other argument. One that I don't really want to get into with people who simply won't ever listen to my side of the argument (I believe in God). The fact is we don't know if there is a God or not, that I will accept, but you're ultimate dismissal of God without knowing if he exists, is the same as my belief that he does exist. Accept that. The truest position is to be agnostic but like you, I have experienced, read, and lived certain things that make me believe rather than not, just like you choose to go the other way.

 

What have you "experienced, read, and lived certain things that make me believe rather than not"?

 

Also, on a side note, whether you believe in him as the son of God or not, Jesus was real, he did exist and there are numerous records to support this.

 

Sources for this?

[scotty]

Blah blah blah, but given the available evidence/facts, it is totally illogical to believe that god exists. Accept that.

 

btw, your not you're. Accept that too. Where was god for your spellcheck?

 

Is that genuinely the best you can do regarding this debate?? ffs, that is truly pathetic.

[aintforever]

Religion is just a bunch of f*cked up fairy tales born through man's insecurities. Today people look back on the sun worshipers and think they were dumb, in 100 years time that's how today's religious people will be viewed.

 

The thing is if you chat to a religious person and actually drill down to what parts of the bible they actually believe, most think it's all b*ll*x anyway, yet still believe there "is something there".

[Ohio Saint]

Of course the original post was somewhat silly, but surely we have moved on from that now.

 

As far as being inflammatory and insulting of other people's opinions, didn't the Bible start all that?

 

[h=4]Psalm 14[/h] ¹The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

 

I find the Bible offensive, not for that passage, but a great many others that insult others.

[Matthew Le God]

I find the Bible offensive, not for that passage, but a great many others that insult others.

 

Under UK laws for inciting hatred, you could make a case for the Bible to be banned from publication. It incites genocide, slavery, murder, rape etc etc.

[Verbal]

Beliefs, the alleged magical qualities of historical figures and sacred texts are far from the most important aspects of organised religion. Far more important than belief in a deity are rituals. It's ritual that binds religious communities - including the many who have no idea how to articulate a defence of their beliefs, or even 'understand' (such a loaded word) the basis of their beliefs.

 

Those with religious convictions tend not to spend any serious time wondering whether or not deities do or do not exist, or whether there is a means to 'prove' such existence. But they DO spend a great deal of time enacting rituals.

 

Which is a long way of saying that debates about the existence or otherwise of deities are inherently unresolvable, and really quite irrelevant. And, dare I say it, it leads to some sympathy for Sergei's argument.

[Stubby]

If you don't mind me asking, how has this distress manifested itself?

 

Are you having trouble sleeping? Panic attacks? Mental suffering?

 

I think you see the point I'm getting at here. I think you're over-egging your rhetoric when you throw in terms like distress. You may be offended, but I very much doubt that these comments have actually distressed you. I apologise in advance if I'm wide of the mark.

 

Regardless of whether it is distress or simple offense, I don't believe that these forum posts stand alone in causing offense. For them to even register, there has to be an element of doubt on your part. Why? Well, if you're so convinced of the veracity of your faith, what does a bit of background noise on an Internet forum matter?

 

Pap,

 

No, I don’t mind you asking. I think the best way I can try to explain how I feel is by analogy. If someone insulted my mother, calling her stupid, immoral or even imaginary, I wouldn’t just disagree, I would be emotionally hurt. Perhaps you would feel the same if it was your mother. For me, Jesus is just as real as my mother, although I don’t expect that’s easy for others to understand or believe. You’re welcome to consider me crazy for this, but it’s true. And I accept your apology for doubting that my distress is real. I understand that it might be difficult for you to comprehend. I was raised an atheist.

 

I don’t think the disrespectful remarks towards God, Jesus and Mary on this thread affect the confidence of my faith. I’m as sure about them as I am about my parents (again, feel free to think I’m crazy) but they affect me emotionally because I love Jesus Christ (or I’m deluded enough to think I do). The “background noise” on this thread doesn’t make me call my faith into question, any more than my posts make you call your belief system into question, but they genuinely do distress me, as they would if people were talking unkindly about my mum. I know that’s not a perfect analogy, but it’s the best way I can think of describing how I feel.

 

Also, to answer Saintandy 66, I agree with you in disliking the idea that atheists should shut up. I would never make such a suggestion. I think that atheists, theists and agnostics should be able to respect each other and each other’s views, and to discuss them with generosity of heart, seeking mutual understanding rather than attempting to ridicule others. I hope I have not shown any disrespect to those which whom I disagree on this thread.

[pap]

Pap,

 

No, I don’t mind you asking. I think the best way I can try to explain how I feel is by analogy. If someone insulted my mother, calling her stupid, immoral or even imaginary, I wouldn’t just disagree, I would be emotionally hurt. Perhaps you would feel the same if it was your mother. For me, Jesus is just as real as my mother, although I don’t expect that’s easy for others to understand or believe. You’re welcome to consider me crazy for this, but it’s true. And I accept your apology for doubting that my distress is real. I understand that it might be difficult for you to comprehend. I was raised an atheist.

 

I don’t think the disrespectful remarks towards God, Jesus and Mary on this thread affect the confidence of my faith. I’m as sure about them as I am about my parents (again, feel free to think I’m crazy) but they affect me emotionally because I love Jesus Christ (or I’m deluded enough to think I do). The “background noise” on this thread doesn’t make me call my faith into question, any more than my posts make you call your belief system into question, but they genuinely do distress me, as they would if people were talking unkindly about my mum. I know that’s not a perfect analogy, but it’s the best way I can think of describing how I feel.

 

Stubby,

 

Kudos to you for giving a response from the heart. I've made my feelings on religion perfectly clear my responses to you, or my responses to others. I try to remain analytical, and FWIW, I think that there is much to learn from the example that Jesus provided in the New Testament. Indeed, if people had stuck to the teachings of that book, and not try to give Christianity more weight by bundling in the barmy Old Testament or crazy interpretations of what Jesus would want, I doubt that I'd have too much problem with it. Loving your neighbour as if he is your brother is something I can wholeheartedly get behind.

 

I've also changed my opinion on one thing at least. I can genuinely believe that you feel distressed by some of these comments.

 

That said, I think you need to develop thicker skin, especially in a forum such as this. Please don't take this as a criticism, because that's not the way I intend it. We all have to deal with people that we don't agree with on a daily basis. In our personal lives, we have the option of filtering a lot of the nutjobs out, but in work, and especially on Internet forums, and especially football forums, that option was defenestrated a long time ago.

 

See, there is no real entrance requirement to our shared haven save £5 and a presumed love of the Saints. Only the five pound part is verified. That being the case, it has the potential to be an asylum dressed as a chocolate box. You never know what nutter is going to pop out of the box next.

 

Now, I'm happy to concede that Dog's comment about Mary's proclivities was probably conceived to offend. If he was truly interested in the improbability of an immaculate conception, he might have followed MLGs more elegant re-phrasing of the same question a little later on.

 

You should take heart from the fact that most of this thread isn't actually in response to that comment, but to your question as to why the mockery of religious idols falls into a different category from racial or homophobic abuse. I think most people have given you detailed explanations as to why they feel that way. While many have also provided critiques of religion in general, and some have used examples from the Bible to qualify its invalidity, very few of us have tried to outright offend.

 

It is, to be fair, a bloody interesting question - and while it was borne from an indignant reaction to ignorance, I think we've seen some interesting responses.

 

My point? Most people are interested in the debate, not having a go at Christianity. I commend you for adding to it; even though I can't logically get behind anything you say, there's emotional honesty about what you're saying. That's not going to stop me from saying things that you are fundamentally going to disagree with, but it doesn't mean there is no respect.

Edited 27 December, 2011 by pap

[Dog]

Wow, thanks for all your replies. The only reason I asked in the first place was because I went to church on Christmas eve for the first time in 12 years and I asked the vicar the same question, and all he said was, it doesn't matter, Jesus is your brother! Which really screwed my head up because I always wanted a brother.

[Verbal]

The vicar was lying.

[Dog]

The vicar was lying.

The vicar was lying yes, he said that the Jesus man worked in a chippy and he was the vicar brother too, which makes me and reverend Rush brothers. He's

[Saintandy666]

I swear there is a story somewhere in the Bible where Jesus gets lost in a temple and Mary gets worried. I have asked the original question on this thread before!