pap Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 (edited) No it doesn't. If someone is behaving like a bastard then what's the difference between stating the fact that the person that is doing it was black and is behaving like a bastard to someone who is fat and behaving like a bastard? It's only offensive if people think there is something wrong with being black, which there most definitely isn't. C'mon, Turkish - me ol' son. You've made this point very clearly on a number of occasions. Andy's at least approaching you at different angles on this. You won't have anyone on here admit that it is a bad thing to be black, because frankly, I don't think that anyone who has posted thus far actually believes it, and anyone that actually believes it won't post it. You're approaching the argument using a microcosm of the available information. It's to your credit that you highlight the brilliant achievements of black people across the vast spectrum of life, but you're doing your readers a disservice with your narrow take on the situation. I think people can accept that logically, you are correct. That's not in dispute. But it's not a logical issue. It is one that is bound up in emotion, in prejudice and must be treated sensitively. You say that it is not wrong to be black, and you're correct. But there's a massive elephant in the room waving his trunk about clamouring for your attention. While it isn't wrong to be black, its perfectly arguable that it is more difficult to be black in this country than it is to be white. White people, in the main, do not have to deal with racism. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that racism is the exclusive trait of white people either. While we have got much better as a society with our attitudes to race, black people are far more likely to be the victims of racial discrimination than white people. I think most on this thread would accept that too. So when you ask "what is the difference between calling someone a fat bastard and a black bastard", the difference is this. One is likely an indicator that someone needs to cut down on their pie intake, while the other is a painful reminder of the prejudice that still exists in this society. Edited 20 December, 2011 by pap added 'likely' - I know some conditions are medical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 There is a clear difference between the two in that race hate has been, and still is a serious problem. Fat people are looked down on but it is not often people are attacked and murdered because of their weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 Turkish, did you not see the Art Of Stand Up last night on BBC2 last night???? Answers quite a few of your points and provides an insight about what might be deemed offensive to some and not to others. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/bigscreen/tv/episode/b018scn0/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 There is a clear difference between the two in that race hate has been, and still is a serious problem. Fat people are looked down on but it is not often people are attacked and murdered because of their weight. Props for achieving in two lines what I said in loads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 C'mon, Turkish - me ol' son. You've made this point very clearly on a number of occasions. Andy's at least approaching you at different angles on this. You won't have anyone on here admit that it is a bad thing to be black, because frankly, I don't think that anyone who has posted thus far actually believes it, and anyone that actually believes it won't post it. You're approaching the argument using a microcosm of the available information. It's to your credit that you highlight the brilliant achievements of black people across the vast spectrum of life, but you're doing your readers a disservice with your narrow take on the situation. I think people can accept that logically, you are correct. That's not in dispute. But it's not a logical issue. It is one that is bound up in emotion, in prejudice and must be treated sensitively. You say that it is not wrong to be black, and you're correct. But there's a massive elephant in the room waving his trunk about clamouring for your attention. While it isn't wrong to be black, its perfectly arguable that it is more difficult to be black in this country than it is to be white. White people, in the main, do not have to deal with racism. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that racism is the exclusive trait of white people either. While we have got much better as a society with our attitudes to race, black people are far more likely to be the victims of racial discrimination than white people. I think most on this thread would accept that too. So when you ask "what is the difference between calling someone a fat bastard and a black bastard", the difference is this. One is an indicator that someone needs to cut down on their pie intake, while the other is a painful reminder of the prejudice that still exists in this society. I wasn't deliberately highlighting the fantastic achievements of black people, that would be patronising, in a look at what they've achieved, despite being black, type way. Those that have achieved these things are people, not black people. I was merely pointing out that these days it could almost be a complement to be described as a black so and so given black people are widely considered to be cool, attractive, good looking etc. Yet there is the undercurrent of "look at what these black people have achieved" that goes hand in hand with some of the "celebrations" of black culture seem to have these days. The fact that people talk about MOBO awards, Black footballer awards, Black History months etc is still segregating black people as different, even though the intentions are postitive. Until we get rid of all that nonsense then black people are still being segregated in society, postively or negatively. For example in football as this is a football forum people like Paul Ince coming out and demanding more black managers for example, when a black manager Chris Hughton for example, does well it's celebrated as a triumph for black managers. Why? Isn't it just a bloke doing a good job? Isn't that deliberately drawing attention to skin colour? How are the next generation supposed to see just people when "look at what these black people are achieving" is constantly rammed down their throats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 (edited) I wasn't deliberately highlighting the fantastic achievements of black people, that would be patronising, in a look at what they've achieved, despite being black, type way. Those that have achieved these things are people, not black people. Please don't take that comment the wrong way. You were right to highlight the impact of black people. It has been immense. Pretty much everything I listen to is music of black origin, even if some white boys took on the reins and added distortion pedals. I was merely pointing out that these days it could almost be a complement to be described as a black so and so given black people are widely considered to be cool, attractive, good looking etc. Yet there is the undercurrent of "look at what these black people have achieved" that goes hand in hand with some of the "celebrations" of black culture seem to have these days. The fact that people talk about MOBO awards, Black footballer awards, Black History months etc is still segregating black people as different, even though the intentions are postitive. Please? Segregation. If black people have a shared heritage and want to commune to celebrate their shared achievements, why shouldn't they? Segregration, from my understanding of the term means something entirely different, evoking images of black people having their own taps and being banned from certain parts of a bus. Segregation is a cancer that still affects US society to this day. White areas, black areas, white schools, black schools - all of which exists to this day. You're equating a few people of colour having a bash to celebrate their achievements with a genuine struggle of million that has profound social consequences. It's not like white people are banned from these events. We are far from perfect on the multicultural front, but we are a hundred times better integrated than the Southern states of the USA. Until we get rid of all that nonsense then black people are still being segregated in society, postively or negatively. So come on then, you're on a roll. How would Turkish handle the problem of segregation ( or group assembly and a bit of a ****-up, as I like to call the MOBOs )? I'll widen your remit. I'll let you handle the genuine issue of places like Oldham, or Bradford, or even our own Newtown. How would you solve that? For example in football as this is a football forum people like Paul Ince coming out and demanding more black managers for example, when a black manager Chris Hughton for example, does well it's celebrated as a triumph for black managers. Why? Isn't it just a bloke doing a good job? Isn't that deliberately drawing attention to skin colour? Paul Ince is, in my opinion, a bellend. That said, I'm sure that John Barnes, Cyril Regis and Viv Anderson would have liked to have seen more black players in the leagues when they were playing and attracting racist abuse. Nowadays, we don't bat an eyelid when we see a black player in a team, because it's just not an oddity anymore, and we're used to it. There aren't many black managers working in European football at the moment, so they are bound to attract attention when they do well, and that's not a bad thing. Just as many young black kids saw the likes of Barnes, etc, and thought "I can do that", I don't see how highlighting a positive black role model that could prove inspirational to others as a bad thing. Hopefully, prospective black managers will look at Hughton's achievements and aspire to do the same. And if that happens, black managers won't be a rarity anymore. How are the next generation supposed to see just people when "look at what these black people are achieving" is constantly rammed down their throats? I've played very nicely with you Turkish, but if I'm honest, it seems like you have perceived all the examples you've given in a sinister light and that you're a bit threatened by black people. You're spicing it up by using words like segregation, but that's really not what it is. If anything, of all the different races on our island, white people have most in common with people of Caribbean descent. We speak the same language, worship the same God (delete as appropriate, atheists) and listen to the same tunes. We might still live apart in a lot of cases, but the relationship is growing close to symbiotic, if it isn't there already. I have absolutely no problem with that, but I think you might. Edited 20 December, 2011 by pap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 was it bad? You could clearly notice yes... and some nasty comments were made at times, but kids are dicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 No it doesn't. If someone is behaving like a bastard then what's the difference between stating the fact that the person that is doing it was black and is behaving like a bastard to someone who is fat and behaving like a bastard? It's only offensive if people think there is something wrong with being black, which there most definitely isn't. Because being black is irrelevant and not something you can change. Someone isn't a bastard(if we use the 'nasty person' meaning of the term) because they are black. They are a bad person because of environmental factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA77 Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 You could clearly notice yes... and some nasty comments were made at times, but kids are dicks. it seems certain kids wanna be starting somethin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 December, 2011 Share Posted 20 December, 2011 it seems certain kids wanna be starting somethin' you got to be starting somethin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 (edited) Sorry pap, I got bored after about two lines. So answer me this. Why is it wrong to make an issue of colour in a negative circumstance, but perfectly fine, in fact even encouraged to make colour an issue in a positive circumstance? We are always told to only see people not skin colour, race or religion. Surely going on about the colour of someone's skin is wrong regardless of the circumstances. Isn't it patronising to point the finger at a few black people with a "ahh well done you, black people can be successful as well " attitude that appears to come across. It's at best patronising is it not? Edited 21 December, 2011 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 (edited) Sorry pap, I got bored after about two lines. Twitter is your medium, mate. So answer me this. Why is it wrong to make an issue of colour in a negative circumstance, but perfectly fine, in fact even encouraged to make colour an issue in a positive circumstance? We are always told to only see people not skin colour, race or religion. Surely going on about the colour of someone's skin is wrong regardless of the circumstances. Isn't it patronising to point the finger at a few black people with a "ahh well done you, black people can be successful as well " attitude that appears to come across. It's at best patronising is it not? Much as I would like to continue throwing light onto every one of your dark little set of questions, I feel you'd only be bored by the answers. Edited 21 December, 2011 by pap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 I agree. But for it to be considered a derogatory term then it's imply there is something wrong with being black. What is wrong with being black? Nothing. If anything its a positive thing. So unless people are living in the past, how can being called a black bastard be an insult? Comes down simply to the interpretation (and your own standards) of what you believe is insulting and how that is defined. Think about the old 'Pornography is offensive to women' FeMail standard quotation - Whereas the writer Christopher Brookmyre put it best when he said 'NO, Pornography is not offensive to women, pornography is something SOME women will find offensive'' there is a difference - the problem with insults is the same - some people will find what is said offensive, others wont - in addition, you have to ask what is meant by it - I suspect that 99.9999% of those who use the 'black' adjective in front of another word that (some folk might) find offensive do so because they do see a negative difference (are racist) and hope it offends more than just calling the same person a bastard... as pap has said context is everything - but you also need to add the fact that its about education, we wont finally be rid of racism until folk stop using skin colour differences as part of an insult - If you are not a racist and detest racism as you state, you will find that ther is NO need to reference skin colour in insult and would like to see it removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 Racial insult is much, much worse. You are making a value judgement based upon that person potentially without even knowing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 Comes down simply to the interpretation (and your own standards) of what you believe is insulting and how that is defined. Think about the old 'Pornography is offensive to women' FeMail standard quotation - Whereas the writer Christopher Brookmyre put it best when he said 'NO' date=' Pornography is not offensive to women, pornography is something SOME women will find offensive'' there is a difference - the problem with insults is the same - some people will find what is said offensive, others wont - in addition, you have to ask what is meant by it - I suspect that 99.9999% of those who use the 'black' adjective in front of another word that (some folk might) find offensive do so because they do see a negative difference (are racist) and hope it offends more than just calling the same person a bastard... as pap has said context is everything - but you also need to add the fact that its about education, we wont finally be rid of racism until folk stop using skin colour differences as part of an insult - If you are not a racist and detest racism as you state, you will find that ther is NO need to reference skin colour in insult and would like to see it removed.[/quote'] Exactly, you call someone a "black barstward " in the hope that the racial element of the insult will cause them some extra offence - all insults are an attempt to cause offence are they not ? But that is not to say that someone employing that tatic must be their heart of hearts a true racist however. We can all lose our temper on occassion, but that does not in itself prove beyond all doubt that we're a fully paid up members of the KKK ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 Now adays it's seems to that it's all gone a bit mad. It's fine to have 1 Extra black radio station and mobo's and celebrate particular race but everyone gets all high and mighty if any colour or race is used in any form of insult. Calling someone names is a bit daft IMO and it would be nice if everyone stopped doing it but the facts are people won't and as one word is deemed wrong the yoof will dream up another to replace it and name calling will continue. There seems to be no I real line drawn that states what is stupid name calling and what is unexceptable behaviour. I and my friends get called all sorts of names in friendly banter which we all find amusing and acceptable. I agree with turkish that it's the dogwooders and PC bregade that can turn silly behaviour into something more. That doesn't make the race issues any less though and efforts to stamp real racism out should continue. It's a good debate though as I feel there is no ballence and will be none until people debate it properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 There is a clear difference between the two in that race hate has been, and still is a serious problem. Fat people are looked down on but it is not often people are attacked and murdered because of their weight. Fat guy strangler in Family Guy. POINT.PROVEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La BoIS Saint Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 Turkish is a racist troll. Not sure whether it is preferable that s/he is of extremely low intelligence and is basically clueless or is of medium intelligence and is simply winding people up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 Turkish is a racist troll. Not sure whether it is preferable that s/he is of extremely low intelligence and is basically clueless or is of medium intelligence and is simply winding people up. Yep, another person of extemely low intellegence that cant comprehend that colour of skin shoudn't be an issue either positively or negatively. Another one not able to grasp that by celebrating black peoples achievements by the very defenition of the celebration it's making a colour of skin an issue. And unable to grasp that anyone who points this out is actually less racist than themselves, because they dont see a skin colour when they see a person, they see a human being. Hiding behind the "oh he's racist" shield because they dares to question postive discrimination and actually point out the fact that it inself makes skin colour an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 Turkish is a racist troll. Not sure whether it is preferable that s/he is of extremely low intelligence and is basically clueless or is of medium intelligence and is simply winding people up. You can only really assess the poster by the posts, unfortunately. This thread has reminded me of being confronted with a small child who overuses the question 'why'? I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's got form in the pretending-not-to-be-a-racist department - as we saw with his Papa Lazarou avatar, a dead ringer for a Black & White Minstrel. Couple of people naturally got the wrong end of the stick, but instead of putting them straight, he spun it on for a couple of months, snickering all the way. He should move to Norway. Only 1.5% of the population are of African origin and trolls are revered by the locals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 You can only really assess the poster by the posts, unfortunately. This thread has reminded me of being confronted with a small child who overuses the question 'why'? I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's got form in the pretending-not-to-be-a-racist department - as we saw with his Papa Lazarou avatar, a dead ringer for a Black & White Minstrel. Couple of people naturally got the wrong end of the stick, but instead of putting them straight, he spun it on for a couple of months, snickering all the way. He should move to Norway. Only 1.5% of the population are of African origin and trolls are revered by the locals. Ahh tHe Papa Lazarou avatar come up again!!! Why should i correct people who leap to the wrong conclusions? It was interesting to note how quick people were to point the finger and accuse based on their own assumptions and ignorances. Ironic really as that is what they would accuse racists of. Prehaps people should practise what they preach a bit more. I am so pleased you gave me the benefit of the doubt, yours and the people on this forums opinions mean so much to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 good god why are people going on about papa lazarou....? has anyone actually seen the league of gentlemen...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 good god why are people going on about papa lazarou....? has anyone actually seen the league of gentlemen...? Ignorance and lack of understanding Jamie, plain and simply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 Ahh tHe Papa Lazarou avatar come up again!!! Why should i correct people who leap to the wrong conclusions? It was interesting to note how quick people were to point the finger and accuse based on their own assumptions and ignorances. Well, I'm just speculating, and I can't really be arsed trawling through your past contributions, but I'd guess that those conclusions were not reached on the basis of the avatar alone. I think you may well have been "tragically mistaken" for a giant racist on the strength of something you wrote prior to choosing Papa Lazarou as your avatar. Just a guess. As for why you should clear up misunderstandings, I suggest its because you knowingly create them in the first place, setting traps for hapless lefties who'll take the hump and complain. But then, if you're doing that, you don't really want to clear it up anyway. Still, I must congratulate you for your aptitude. Your continued protestations of innocence sound almost authentic now. Have you had enough attention for the day, or do you need some more, darling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 December, 2011 Share Posted 21 December, 2011 good god why are people going on about papa lazarou....? has anyone actually seen the league of gentlemen...? Yes, I have seen it. One of the best comedies in the last 20 years. Papa Lazarou is not racist, Dave. You are his wife now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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