Racial abuse vs Personal abuse

[Matty's Caddy]

hi all

what are everybodies thoughts on the difference between calling somebody a fat basterd or calling somebody a black basterd?

Is the fat comment acceptable to everybody whereas the black comment is obviously not?

Please discuss, genuinely interested is the cross-section of opinion

Personally, i think theres fook all difference, but thats me

[Colinjb]

I hope this doesn't descend into anything bad because this is a genuinely interesting question.

 

Personally, I feel that due to the historic precidents of racism/slavery etc any racial insult will always carry more weight/controversy then a personal insult. I am however from a generation/background that has never felt or expressed any racism directly and I have often asked the question, If I get called a "white b*stard" is that racist or just an observation based on my current behaviour and obvious ethnicity?

 

Obviously though, past oppression and historic trends make that point moot. But I hope we are getting to the point eventually where race is genuinely not an issue. It is happening, but very slowly.

Edited 19 December, 2011 by Colinjb

[the saint in winchester]

Seems a good question to me, as watching the game on TV on Sunday, noticed that our players taking corners or throw-ins were being verbally abused by the Blue fans - anyone could lip read their screamed insults. Why is that deemed acceptable banter, but even referring to skin colour, even in a non-derogatory way, is deemed as racist? Personal abuse is as bad, maybe even worse, than stereotyping generically?

[Matthew Le God]

Genetically speaking there is no such thing as "race". Everyone has a huge mixture of ancestors genes from all around the globe, all tracing back to the same common ancestors in Africa. It is impossible to draw a line where one so called "racial group" ends and another starts. With no "races" there can't really be racial abuse. Doesn't stop some people though, sadly.

Edited 20 December, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[pap]

This is easy.

 

I wouldn't call someone either of those terms. Why? Because both terms are too f*cking easy.

 

Seriously. How much intelligence do you need to have to determine that someone is:-

 

a) fat

b) black

 

?

 

 

Further, what the f*ck does either attribute matter?

 

"Ha ha, you're fat. You eat too much"

 

"Ha ha, you're black. You must have had a black ancestor"

 

Absolutely f*cking pathetic in either case, imo.

 

If that genuinely is the highest level of insult that someone can provide, then I'd offer a third option to this little list to cover that sort of person.

 

Stupid unimaginative b*stard, and completely unworthy of anyone's attention.

[Colinjb]

This is easy.

 

I wouldn't call someone either of those terms. Why? Because both terms are too f*cking easy.

 

Seriously. How much intelligence do you need to have to determine that someone is:-

 

a) fat

b) black

 

?

 

 

Further, what the f*ck does either attribute matter?

 

"Ha ha, you're fat. You eat too much"

 

"Ha ha, you're black. You must have had a black ancestor"

 

Absolutely f*cking pathetic in either case, imo.

 

If that genuinely is the highest level of insult that someone can provide, then I'd offer a third option to this little list to cover that sort of person.

 

Stupid unimaginative b*stard, and completely unworthy of anyone's attention.

 

Ok, take the level of intelligence out of it. What if there are two insults, one racial and one based purely on non-racial personal observation. What is the more vulgar?

[pap]

Ok, take the level of intelligence out of it. What if there are two insults, one racial and one based purely on non-racial personal observation. What is the more vulgar?

 

Doesn't even come into it.

 

Both are incredibly cheap shots that demean the insulter more than the insulted.

 

So on that, completely non-intelligent level, there's no difference. In both cases, the insulter is an utter tube that is picking the ripest of low-hanging fruit.

[Colinjb]

Doesn't even come into it.

 

Both are incredibly cheap shots that demean the insulter more than the insulted.

 

So on that, completely non-intelligent level, there's no difference. In both cases, the insulter is an utter tube that is picking the ripest of low-hanging fruit.

 

Nonetheless there is a difference between the two insults even though they are absolutely cheap, surely? Insults are something the transcend intelligence, no matter how high brow there will be an ignorant/emotional root.

[Turkish]

I don't see how calling someone a black bastard is racist. It's wisely considered to be because all the dogooders Come out with their pitchforks wanting hangings everytime colour is raised in what they decide is even a remotely negative context. In the real world it doesn't work like that. If a black bloke is playing up then calling him a black bastard is simply stating a fact, he is black and he is being a bastard. If you said "you black bastard, I want to stab you because of the colour of your skin" then that is something quite different.

[trousers]

I don't see how calling someone a black bastard is racist. It's wisely considered to be because all the dogooders Come out with their pitchforks wanting hangings everytime colour is raised in what they decide is even a remotely negative context. In the real world it doesn't work like that. If a black bloke is playing up then calling him a black bastard is simply stating a fact, he is black and he is being a bastard. If you said "you black bastard, I want to stab you because of the colour of your skin" then that is something quite different.

 

I guess the counter argument would be that if a white fella was 'playing up' he would, typically, be called a 'bastard' rather than a 'white bastard', thus implying that there was something worse about being a bastard AND being black.

 

But I tend to agree with you about observation often being twisted into racism.

[pap]

Nonetheless there is a difference between the two insults even though they are absolutely cheap, surely? Insults are something the transcend intelligence, no matter how high brow there will be an ignorant/emotional root.

 

The only difference is that which we provide for ourselves. The offense taken depends on the cultural context, which means intelligence is a factor that you cannot remove.

 

Let's take the 'fat' insult. During the Victorian age, being fat was a sign of prosperity. Now let's examine the colour of one's skin. Would a white person in the UK feel unduly insulted if he or she was called a white b*stard? Probably not, because being white has never been something that has been seen as a bad thing here.

 

Insults are ultimately designed to hurt someone. People are going to have different thresholds for how much they can put up with. Let's compare the response of a black man confident of his heritage with an insecure fat person who cannot stand to look in the mirror. In that case, you could argue that it is worse to have a go at the fat person, precisely because it'll cause more damage to that one individual.

 

Take away the malice, take away the historical context and take away the intent, and both words are just adjectives. Take away comprehension, and it's just gibberish. As I said at the start of this post, the only difference is what we create ourselves. You can't do that without some level of intelligence and comprehension behind it.

[trousers]

The only difference is that which we provide for ourselves. The offense taken depends on the cultural context, which means intelligence is a factor that you cannot remove.

 

Let's take the 'fat' insult. During the Victorian age, being fat was a sign of prosperity. Now let's examine the colour of one's skin. Would a white person in the UK feel unduly insulted if he or she was called a white b*stard? Probably not, because being white has never been something that has been seen as a bad thing here.

 

Insults are ultimately designed to hurt someone. People are going to have different thresholds for how much they can put up with. Let's compare the response of a black man confident of his heritage with an insecure fat person who cannot stand to look in the mirror. In that case, you could argue that it is worse to have a go at the fat person, precisely because it'll cause more damage to that one individual.

 

Take away the malice, take away the historical context and take away the intent, and both words are just adjectives. Take away comprehension, and it's just gibberish. As I said at the start of this post, the only difference is what we create ourselves. You can't do that without some level of intelligence and comprehension behind it.

 

Top post. Sums it up nicely.

[pap]

I don't see how calling someone a black bastard is racist. It's wisely considered to be because all the dogooders Come out with their pitchforks wanting hangings everytime colour is raised in what they decide is even a remotely negative context. In the real world it doesn't work like that. If a black bloke is playing up then calling him a black bastard is simply stating a fact, he is black and he is being a bastard. If you said "you black bastard, I want to stab you because of the colour of your skin" then that is something quite different.

 

Weird that you mention pitchforks and hangings... The Ku Klux Klan used to be quite fond of the latter.

 

I don't buy that calling someone a 'black bastard' is simply stating a fact. You might be able to hide behind a wall of logical correctness on your point, but we both know that there is something else in that statement when uttered by a white person in a white-dominated country with a history of racism, so shall we drop the "I was born yesterday and just don't understand" act?

Edited 20 December, 2011 by pap
Changed former to latter

[Turkish]

Weird that you mention pitchforks and hangings... The Ku Klux Klan used to be quite fond of the latter.

 

I don't buy that calling someone a 'black bastard' is simply stating a fact. You might be able to hide behind a wall of logical correctness on your point, but we both know that there is something else in that statement when uttered by a white person in a white-dominated country with a history of racism, so shall we drop the "I was born yesterday and just don't understand" act?

 

If you asked a black man what colour he was what would he say?

If you asked a bald man what hair cut he had what would he say?

If you asked a ginger what colour his hair was what would he say?

 

So what is the difference between calling a black man playing up a black bastard, a ginger man playing up a ginger bastard and a bald man playing up a bald bastard? They are all stating facts.

[Dog]

What if they are black, fat & ginger?

 

Would you call them a 'fat black ginger b@stard'? If so, would you be worse then calling them one of the mentioned rude words?

[Turkish]

What if they are black, fat & ginger?

 

Would you call them a 'fat black ginger b@stard'? If so, would you be worse then calling them one of the mentioned rude words?

 

I'd call them Wes Brown, that'd hurt 'em more than any colour slur.

[Gemmel]

I'd call them Wes Brown.

 

******* Quality

[pap]

If you asked a black man what colour he was what would he say?

If you asked a bald man what hair cut he had what would he say?

If you asked a ginger what colour his hair was what would he say?

 

So what is the difference between calling a black man playing up a black bastard, a ginger man playing up a ginger bastard and a bald man playing up a bald bastard? They are all stating facts.

 

Take a look at the bit after the part you emboldened. I've already answered your point. Not going to answer it again.

[Viking Warrior]

They are both discriminatory and derogatory and the heavy equalities book of law can be thrown at you if arrested, same as Our guys at the brighton match.

 

It means that the old adage of sticks and stones will break our bones but names will never hurt me.

 

should now read sticks and stones will break our bones and I will get lots of cash but calling me a name then I can get you banged up and get loads of cash for calling me a fat pig etc . Thank goodness for the nanny state

[Turkish]

Take a look at the bit after the part you emboldened. I've already answered your point. Not going to answer it again.

 

"Let's take the 'fat' insult. During the Victorian age, being fat was a sign of prosperity. Now let's examine the colour of one's skin. Would a white person in the UK feel unduly insulted if he or she was called a white b*stard? Probably not, because being white has never been something that has been seen as a bad thing here."

 

Please explain how being black is a negative thing. This is what appears to being being implied by calling people a black bastard.

 

Being fat was seen as a great thing in the Victorian times so using history as your bassing fat people should be delighted to be called so. THis is what you are basing your argument that being called a black bastard is offensive.

Edited 20 December, 2011 by Turkish

[Turkish]

They are both discriminatory and derogatory and the heavy equalities book of law can be thrown at you if arrested, same as Our guys at the brighton match.

 

It means that the old adage of sticks and stones will break our bones but names will never hurt me.

 

should now read sticks and stones will break our bones and I will get lots of cash but calling me a name then I can get you banged up and get loads of cash for calling me a fat pig etc . Thank goodness for the nanny state

 

I quite agree. At least when i was a kid bullying was real and you got to have a bit of a tear up if you were lucky. These days it's restricted to some kiddie crying to his parents because someone called him a 4 eyed mong on facebook, twitter or by text message.

[ecuk268]

Let's take the 'fat' insult. During the Victorian age, being fat was a sign of prosperity. Now let's examine the colour of one's skin. Would a white person in the UK feel unduly insulted if he or she was called a white b*stard? Probably not, because being white has never been something that has been seen as a bad thing here.

 

If you were in a country that was populated mainly by black people, you would probably feel that you were being singled out because of your colour. If we were all 20 stone, calling someone a "fat bastard" would have no insulting effect. It's the minority aspect that produces the additional insult.

[View From The Top]

Just call them cu nts without the adjectives.

 

This has stood the test of time.

[pap]

"Let's take the 'fat' insult. During the Victorian age, being fat was a sign of prosperity. Now let's examine the colour of one's skin. Would a white person in the UK feel unduly insulted if he or she was called a white b*stard? Probably not, because being white has never been something that has been seen as a bad thing here."

 

Please explain how being black is a negative thing. This is what appears to being being implied by calling people a black bastard.

 

Being fat was seen as a great thing in the Victorian times so using history as your bassing fat people should be delighted to be called so. THis is what you are basing your argument that being called a black bastard is offensive.

 

There you go with your logic again.

 

I'm not saying that being black is a bad thing. Other people have evidently thought this though, else racism wouldn't exist.

 

When a white person calls someone a "black bastard", there is an implicit undertone of racial superiority.

 

That said, I am open to being corrected. If you are so confident in your assessment that it is simply a statement of fact, I would suggest going to the Jamaican Club in Southampton to see how far you get.

[pap]

If you were in a country that was populated mainly by black people, you would probably feel that you were being singled out because of your colour. If we were all 20 stone, calling someone a "fat bastard" would have no insulting effect. It's the minority aspect that produces the additional insult.

 

Nail on head, ecuk268.

[Turkish]

There you go with your logic again.

 

I'm not saying that being black is a bad thing. Other people have evidently thought this though, else racism wouldn't exist.

 

When a white person calls someone a "black bastard", there is an implicit undertone of racial superiority.

 

That said, I am open to being corrected. If you are so confident in your assessment that it is simply a statement of fact, I would suggest going to the Jamaican Club in Southampton to see how far you get.

 

But would the people in the Jamaican club be offended by it because they truely belive it to be offensive or because they have been conditioned by the media and dogooders to believe that stating a fact is offensive? Being described as black is only derogatory if they believe there is something wrong with being black and they aren't happy within themselves. Some fat people get quite upset by being called fat bastards, others more comfortable in their own fat can laugh it off.

 

I obviously wouldnt go into a club and deliberately provoke a response, that would be stupid and a deliberate act of racism. Plus if they weren't playing up there would be no need to call anyone anything.

[pap]

But would the people in the Jamaican club be offended by it because they truely belive it to be offensive or because they have been conditioned by the media and dogooders to believe that stating a fact is offensive?

 

Nope, they'd find it offensive because historically, white people have used that specific term in conjunction with their cultural dominance to demean black people in the past.

 

I happen to share VFTT's view. If someone is committing acts of bastardry, call them up on the thing they can change. Call them a bastard. Colour doesn't come into it.

 

Being described as black is only derogatory if they believe there is something wrong with being black and they aren't happy within themselves. Some fat people get quite upset by being called fat bastards, others more comfortable in their own fat can laugh it off.

 

Yeah, but fat people can take steps to not be fat.

 

Michael Jackson aside (and we all know how well that turned out), skin colour is something that you keep for life and cannot change.

 

 

I obviously wouldnt go into a club and deliberately provoke a response, that would be stupid and a deliberate act of racism. Plus if they weren't playing up there would be no need to call anyone anything.

 

So under what circumstances would you call someone a 'black bastard'? When is it to be preferred over simply calling them a bastard?

 

On a related note, if that hole you're digging is anywhere near Australia, watch out for funnel-web spiders. They hide in toilets and bite you on the arse.

[Turkish]

Nope, they'd find it offensive because historically, white people have used that specific term in conjunction with their cultural dominance to demean black people in the past.

 

I happen to share VFTT's view. If someone is committing acts of bastardry, call them up on the thing they can change. Call them a bastard. Colour doesn't come into it.

 

 

 

Yeah, but fat people can take steps to not be fat.

 

Michael Jackson aside (and we all know how well that turned out), skin colour is something that you keep for life and cannot change.

 

 

 

 

So under what circumstances would you call someone a 'black bastard'? When is it to be preferred over simply calling them a bastard?

 

On a related note, if that hole you're digging is anywhere near Australia, watch out for funnel-web spiders. They hide in toilets and bite you on the arse.

 

I wouldn't call someone a black bastard. I wouldn't use the word bastard usually, i'd call them a c*nt.

 

On your other point, white people are no longer considered the superior race. If anything it's gone full circle with black athletes, black music, black fashion and black culture thriving in modern day Britian. We have black player awards, black history month, the MOBO awards and so on. If some people are still determined to live in the past and claim being called black is derogatory then thats very sad. Some people need to move on though and live in the modern era where colour doesn't matter as you quite rightly say and being called a black something could well be considered a complement.

Edited 20 December, 2011 by Turkish

[pap]

As always, Turkish - it's context.

 

I have no problem with referring to someone as a black man, and my black friends have no issue with the term either.

 

And yep, some people still throw the term around in a derogatory manner. Racism is almost an epigenetic condition in some families. The young kids don't stand a chance.

 

The sad thing is, some of the best laughs I've ever had with pals of various origins is when we have explored the differences between our respective outlooks in an informal environment. We're never going to have that sort of relationship nationally until we put ye olde racism to bed.

 

Problem is, there are always going to be people who'll look to blame outside influences for their own sh*t when really, they should be looking in the mirror and saying "that bloke right there is a bit of a f*ck-up. How do I sort him out?".

[Wade Garrett]

I reckon that 'black' anything is offensive as you are unnecessarily bringing the colour of someone's skin into it.

 

Fat bastard is also wrong. For all you know there could be some underlying medical or psychological factor that explain their obesity. Or, they could just be lazy, greedy bastards, but you can't make that judgement without full possession of the facts.

 

Just use 'bastard', 'c*nt' or even better 'c*nting bastard' and you are pretty well covered on the race or offensive front.

[View From The Top]

Just use 'bastard', 'c*nt' or even better 'c*nting bastard' and you are pretty well covered on the race or offensive front.

 

Wise words. A good cu nting bast ard covers most eventualities nicely and removes the opportunity of a social faux pas of shouting "you black/fat/ginger cun ting bast ard" which is sure to make some folk tut, or even, roll their eyes.

[Turkish]

As always, Turkish - it's context.

 

I have no problem with referring to someone as a black man, and my black friends have no issue with the term either.

 

And yep, some people still throw the term around in a derogatory manner. Racism is almost an epigenetic condition in some families. The young kids don't stand a chance.

 

The sad thing is, some of the best laughs I've ever had with pals of various origins is when we have explored the differences between our respective outlooks in an informal environment. We're never going to have that sort of relationship nationally until we put ye olde racism to bed.

 

Problem is, there are always going to be people who'll look to blame outside influences for their own sh*t when really, they should be looking in the mirror and saying "that bloke right there is a bit of a f*ck-up. How do I sort him out?".

 

I quite agree, but really these days is being called a black bastard that offensive FFS? F*ck me, your being compared to the same group of people as the best boxers, fastest runners, some of the best musicians. It's not like being compared to someone who is going to die early because they cant control their eating habits. Some people need to get the chips off their shoulder and stop living in the past.

[Saintandy666]

Even though as insults, they are pretty ****... most people can help being fat, and simply eat too much and I do think they need to at least be informed they are fat because of the damage it does to their health. Being a certain skin colour is totally different because you can't suddenly decide to have white skin or black skin one day. I just think we need to start thinking that we are all PEOPLE, rather than dividing us up by what geographical area of land we come from or what our skin colour is.

[Turkish]

Even though as insults, they are pretty ****... most people can help being fat, and simply eat too much and I do think they need to at least be informed they are fat because of the damage it does to their health. Being a certain skin colour is totally different because you can't suddenly decide to have white skin or black skin one day. I just think we need to start thinking that we are all PEOPLE, rather than dividing us up by what geographical area of land we come from or what our skin colour is.

 

I agree. But for it to be considered a derogatory term then it's imply there is something wrong with being black. What is wrong with being black? Nothing. If anything its a positive thing. So unless people are living in the past, how can being called a black bastard be an insult?

[Viking Warrior]

I see in the City of York school children have been banned from using the star sign when they sing twinkle twinkle little star.

 

Apparrently the star sign the little children use is a british Deaf sign for female genitalia. Its odd that it is only when the sign is used on the groin that it refers to female genitalia. However the PC's have said children must cease to do it Instead the should stick a clenched fist in the air and opening and closing their fingers to represent a twinkling star

 

So now all you parents with small children make sure you encourage your kids to do twinkle twinkle little star correctly

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Most racism is in the eye of the beholder. If someone gets called a black ****, then surely it is down to the person that is receiving the abuse to find it derogatory, and that they see something bad about being black?

 

That's probably wrong, but is my opinion.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Even though as insults, they are pretty ****... most people can help being fat, and simply eat too much and I do think they need to at least be informed they are fat because of the damage it does to their health. Being a certain skin colour is totally different because you can't suddenly decide to have white skin or black skin one day. I just think we need to start thinking that we are all PEOPLE, rather than dividing us up by what geographical area of land we come from or what our skin colour is.

 

Michael Jackson?

[pap]

Most racism is in the eye of the beholder. If someone gets called a black ****, then surely it is down to the person that is receiving the abuse to find it derogatory, and that they see something bad about being black?

 

That's probably wrong, but is my opinion.

 

Isn't all communication about the dynamic between transmitter and receiver?

 

(apologies if I got that wrong, been a while since I've been on a w*nky management course)

[buctootim]

Best insult for a normal / slim woman is "get your fat arse out of here". The reaction is normally electric and you just know it causes hours or days of self doubt (not baes on current or frequent experience you understand....)

[Thedelldays]

which comment will more likely get you arrested in town..?

[LA77]

In the old days it was accepted to call a spade a spade ffs

[pap]

In the old days it was accepted to call a spade a spade ffs

 

Welcome to the future.

[LA77]

Welcome to the future.

 

sorry sir, I couldn't resist

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I'm totally against calling anyone a fat, or black, bastard, but mainly because the English language affords so many infinitively better ways to insult anyone. For instance, if I were let my guard down for one moment & express my real opinion Pompey fans, the French, or even striking public sector workers, then something like this might just slip out:

 

You loathsome lumps of fetal horror,

You maniac bastardly turds,

I would rather sip stale urine from Sir Alan Surgers arse pit, than linger one moment more in your defiling company,

You're filth, you're vile, you are the oooooze of a burst boil,

I despise you, you towering mounds of corrupted slime,

The very sight of your greasy snouts induces a unstoppable torrent of vomit,

Your postings are like the slithering hiss of a bloated maggot, rotting in the putrid gut of a decomposing gerbil,

Your views are fouler than the unwiped inner ring of Satan's rectum,

Your constant moaning is akin to the dying whimper of a rabid dog, its boiled brain swollen to grotesque proportions.

 

 

Now that's what I call a proper insult.

[Saintandy666]

I agree. But for it to be considered a derogatory term then it's imply there is something wrong with being black. What is wrong with being black? Nothing. If anything its a positive thing. So unless people are living in the past, how can being called a black bastard be an insult?

 

Well, 'black bastard' makes it sound like you are saying they are a bastard because they are black. To be honest, it all depends on the context. Like, I have banter with my friends which could be considered homophobic or racist, we all do if I just shouted it at someone in the street... but because we are all friends and give as good as we get, it's not offensive. I really think the intent is important.

 

There's not space for that kind of joking in public life though. Racism is abhorrent and dumb.

Edited 20 December, 2011 by Saintandy666

[Saintandy666]

Michael Jackson?

 

He didn't decide though, he had a skin condition and the condition does exist, I went to school with someone who had it... though she wasn't black.

[LA77]

He didn't decide though, he had a skin condition and the condition does exist, I went to school with someone who had it... though she wasn't black.

 

was it bad?

[Stubby]

The clue is in the title of the thread. Both are abuse.

 

If you think abuse is wrong, then arguing about which abuse is slightly worse is a bit pointless. Of course, during a football match, you might consider such comments acceptable because they're meant to damage the concentration of your opponent, not to denegrate him, in which case they're not abuse, they're part of the competition.

 

Either way, be consistent. What depresses me is people who take great exception to some forms of verbal abuse, while indulging in others.

[Turkish]

Well, 'black bastard' makes it sound like you are saying they are a bastard because they are black. To be honest, it all depends on the context. Like, I have banter with my friends which could be considered homophobic or racist, we all do if I just shouted it at someone in the street... but because we are all friends and give as good as we get, it's not offensive. I really think the intent is important.

 

There's not space for that kind of joking in public life though. Racism is abhorrent and dumb.

 

No it doesn't. If someone is behaving like a bastard then what's the difference between stating the fact that the person that is doing it was black and is behaving like a bastard to someone who is fat and behaving like a bastard?

 

It's only offensive if people think there is something wrong with being black, which there most definitely isn't.

[View From The Top]

was it bad?

 

Beat it will you.