Gemmel Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16102052.stm I'm not comparing the clubs as equals,, Everton is by far the bigger and more succesful club of the two (Even if that does include the little ******s Heath's input), but they have suffered season long protests at their board and Chairman, for lack of investment. In the last five years they have finished a very impressive 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th & 7th. Which from an outsider looking in, pretty much resembles the pecking order as I see it. But Everton fans obviously want more and feel they are worthy of more. Kenwright has always come across as decent, do the right thing by the club, sort of chairman and much in the same way as lowe, has refused to add to the debt, but insisted he is looking for investment. I think the Everton fans are wrong (But there could be much more to the story), but was wondering if we were the same, when demanding lowe step down, bringing in wilde in the hope of new money etc? Did we as fans want bigger things, than the clubs size and revenue dictated? I've got the Everton fans down as a bit ungrateful after reading that - Do you think other clubs thought that of us, during the protests? (Stand up if you want lowe out etc.) or is it just a case that money rules football now and nothing else really matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodles34 Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 As you might imagine, I've got a lot of Bluenose mates on account of living in Liverpool. Kenwright does retain some support amongst the fans, but not much. I don't think anyone is accusing him of not being a decent chap, but questions have been asked about the amount of effort expended either attracting investment or finding a new buyer for the club. The fans look at the profile of the club, the profile of the city and the fact that they're in the Premiership and assume that there would be no shortage of takers. I've got a lot of sympathy with that view, and can understand why they are asking the question. But then, not every cloud has a silver lining - just look at the chicken-inspired fiasco going on up at Blackburn. I do understand their frustration. I've argued that it has been better to be a Saints fan than an Everton fan in recent years, despite the fact that we got relegated a couple of times. Everton have effectively been treading water. Too good to get relegated, not good enough to challenge and no real prospect for change without major investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Everton don't know how good they've got things. They've been run really well and could have easily been a Leeds or Newcastle. They play in one of the last great old football grounds left in this country, see some half decent football, usually involving one or two local lads brought through the ranks, pay cheap prices compared to others in the Prem and a good settled squad of players and management team. Who are they aspiring to be like? If they look at clubs a similar size to them, have they done much more? Villa? Even Tottenham with all the money they have spent haven't achieved much more and their fans are probably paying a good 50% more then Everton supporters for the privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16102052.stm I'm not comparing the clubs as equals,, Everton is by far the bigger and more succesful club of the two (Even if that does include the little ******s Heath's input), but they have suffered season long protests at their board and Chairman, for lack of investment. In the last five years they have finished a very impressive 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th & 7th. Which from an outsider looking in, pretty much resembles the pecking order as I see it. But Everton fans obviously want more and feel they are worthy of more. Kenwright has always come across as decent, do the right thing by the club, sort of chairman and much in the same way as lowe, has refused to add to the debt, but insisted he is looking for investment. I think the Everton fans are wrong (But there could be much more to the story), but was wondering if we were the same, when demanding lowe step down, bringing in wilde in the hope of new money etc? Did we as fans want bigger things, than the clubs size and revenue dictated? I've got the Everton fans down as a bit ungrateful after reading that - Do you think other clubs thought that of us, during the protests? (Stand up if you want lowe out etc.) or is it just a case that money rules football now and nothing else really matters. A little bit different, we were going downhill in the second tier. We had every right to be ****ed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Everton don't know how good they've got things. They play in one of the last great old football grounds left in this country. Goodison Park is one of the main factors holding them back from progressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 As you might imagine, I've got a lot of Bluenose mates on account of living in Liverpool. Kenwright does retain some support amongst the fans, but not much. I don't think anyone is accusing him of not being a decent chap, but questions have been asked about the amount of effort expended either attracting investment or finding a new buyer for the club. The fans look at the profile of the club, the profile of the city and the fact that they're in the Premiership and assume that there would be no shortage of takers. I've got a lot of sympathy with that view, and can understand why they are asking the question. But then, not every cloud has a silver lining - just look at the chicken-inspired fiasco going on up at Blackburn. I do understand their frustration. I've argued that it has been better to be a Saints fan than an Everton fan in recent years, despite the fact that we got relegated a couple of times. Everton have effectively been treading water. Too good to get relegated, not good enough to challenge and no real prospect for change without major investment. I guess they maybe look at Man City and think they were at least the equal to them if not a bigger club only a few years ago. But what's happened at City and Chelsea are real exceptions to the rule. What do most of your bluenose mates actually want to happen to Everton? Would they like to be like Newcastle? Leeds? Villa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Goodison Park is one of the main factors holding them back from progressing. if they get crowds of 35k at Goodison how is that holding them back? it is a cracking old ground, full of history and character and would be a very sad day for football if it ever goes, depsite our appaling form there i used to enjoy it, cracking chippy across from the main stand for chips and curry sauce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 if they get crowds of 35k at Goodison how is that holding them back? it is a cracking old ground, full of history and character and would be a very sad day for football if it ever goes, depsite our appaling form there i used to enjoy it, cracking chippy across from the main stand for chips and curry sauce They are averaging 29,754 not 35,000. Less than Saints did in any season at St Mary's in the top flight. A new or improved stadium would also open up new revenue streams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Goodison Park is one of the main factors holding them back from progressing. I've heard that argument. I don't care. I'd rather have a ground like that than all the money given to Man City Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I've heard that argument. I don't care. I'd rather have a ground like that than all the money given to Man City What about one like this... [video=youtube;HwgCvO8-6fM] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 They are averaging 29,754 not 35,000. Less than Saints did in any season at St Mary's in the top flight. A new or improved stadium would also open up new revenue streams. "new revenue stream" if i ever hear someone mention those words when justifying knocking down cracking old football grounds i'll go mental. their ground holds just under 40k so is big enough for them, like Cov moving from Highfield Road, completely unneccessary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 "new revenue stream" if i ever hear someone mention those words when justifying knocking down cracking old football grounds i'll go mental. their ground holds just under 40k so is big enough for them, like Cov moving from Highfield Road, completely unneccessary Arsenal make more money from their corporate areas at the Emirates than they do from all other seating areas combined. If Goodison Park improved corporate facilites, they could increase revenue significantly. More money, better team, happier fans. Look at the video I posted and you will see it still would retain the "character" of Goodison Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Arsenal make more money from their corporate areas at the Emirates than they do from all other seating areas combined. If Goodison Park improved corporate facilites, they could increase revenue significantly. what right thinking football fan would want that? football goes in cycles, hopefully it will become unfashionable again, the corporate market will fall apart and clubs will actually have to treat their fans with respect being the main income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonManager Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 if they get crowds of 35k at Goodison how is that holding them back? it is a cracking old ground, full of history and character and would be a very sad day for football if it ever goes, depsite our appaling form there i used to enjoy it, cracking chippy across from the main stand for chips and curry sauce I was there for the 8-0, but I'm over it now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Nininan > whatever cardiff’s new ground is Highbury > emirates (its named after a middle east airline FFS) Highfield Road > Ricoh retail park The list is endless, all these “shiny new grounds” will eventually age and look less appealing than the grand old grounds that at least have some character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I was there for the 8-0, but I'm over it now yeah i've seen a few thrashings there, but pleased to be there for the televised sunday game in 2008 when we won 2-0 Kevin Davies, only about 300 saints fans at the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Nininan > whatever cardiff’s new ground is Highbury > emirates (its named after a middle east airline FFS) Highfield Road > Ricoh retail park The list is endless, all these “shiny new grounds” will eventually age and look less appealing than the grand old grounds that at least have some character. Do you wish Saints stayed at The Dell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Do you wish Saints stayed at The Dell? i wish St Marys had more character. if we could have stayed at the Dell and developed it to be 32k then yes, i think i would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 i wish St Marys had more character. if we could have stayed at the Dell and developed it to be 32k then yes, i think i would. Fans give a match character. Not a stadium. Goodison Park still has pillars obstructing views and other appalling sight lines. Is that good character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Fans give a match character. Not a stadium. Goodison Park still has pillars obstructing views and other appalling sight lines. Is that good character? you have no concept of architecural character at all, i'm not surprised. there is a world of difference beween grand, historical offices in the city of london and a new built plastic business park on the edge of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I was at Goodison for a 1-0 cup defeat one evening in the late 70's early 80's Many years before I saw Everton beat Burnley one Easter in from of 72,000 fans in a Div 1 game Everton had a great team at the time and the astmosphere was fantastic in a ground that was miles better than the competition at the time They have had a number of false dawns on ground relocation to Kings Dock, Speke and Kirkby, the latter to be underwritten by Tesco who's ex Chairman, is a keen Evertonian I have been in the corporates at Goodison Park a few times when Saints have played up there but it was hardly bigger than those at the Dell and this is where the club falls down in comparison to others in the Prem as the revenue streams are far less Of course the sensible option is to develop a joint new stadium with Liverpool on Stanley Park but this will never happen Interesting that Derek Hatton the ex left wing head of Liverpool Council (and a real champagne socialist) is the commentator on the video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Do you wish Saints stayed at The Dell? I do, as does everyone I know that was a regular there, the only thing it lacked was capacity. Not being funny, but you just seem in a mood for arguing for the sake of it, go back to going round in circles with Turkish talking about our Prem crowds against Bolton or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 you have no concept of architecural character at all, i'm not surprised. there is a world of difference beween grand, historical offices in the city of london and a new built plastic business park on the edge of town. I think architectually places like St Marys, The Walkers, The Riverside etc. are a bit dull, but I find I care very little about that come match day. For me atmosphere is all about the crowd, who we're playing, what's riding on the game etc and the actual ground doesn't really come into it. I've been to some proper old school grounds like Swindon, Wycombe, Burnley, Oldham and Scunny and sat there in silence for 2 hours. On the other hand I've been to games at St Marys which were absolutely rocking. Personally old buildings with dated facilities don't do anything for me. I agree many of them are more unique than places like SMS and The Richo, but I wouldn't say they have more 'character' as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Goodison Park is one of the main factors holding them back from progressing. Thank christ Turkish hasn't found this thread yet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I think architectually places like St Marys, The Walkers, The Riverside etc. are a bit dull, but I find I care very little about that come match day. For me atmosphere is all about the crowd, who we're playing, what's riding on the game etc and the actual ground doesn't really come into it. I've been to some proper old school grounds like Swindon, Wycombe, Burnley, Oldham and Scunny and sat there in silence for 2 hours. On the other hand I've been to games at St Marys which were absolutely rocking. Personally old buildings with dated facilities don't do anything for me. I agree many of them are more unique than places like SMS and The Richo, but I wouldn't say they have more 'character' as such. Shows you how much attention you pay to all this. Swindon is one of the louder places we've been to in the lower leagues. Oldham weren't too bad either. Scunny is a newish ground. Apart from that you're spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Thank christ Turkish hasn't found this thread yet.... Why do you keep talking about me? It's little *odd* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 (edited) Why do you keep talking about me? It's little *odd* Your forum reputation is growing (but not necessarily in a good way.......... ) Edited 9 December, 2011 by scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I think architectually places like St Marys, The Walkers, The Riverside etc. are a bit dull, but I find I care very little about that come match day. For me atmosphere is all about the crowd, who we're playing, what's riding on the game etc and the actual ground doesn't really come into it. I've been to some proper old school grounds like Swindon, Wycombe, Burnley, Oldham and Scunny and sat there in silence for 2 hours. On the other hand I've been to games at St Marys which were absolutely rocking. Personally old buildings with dated facilities don't do anything for me. I agree many of them are more unique than places like SMS and The Richo, but I wouldn't say they have more 'character' as such. And Wycombe is a newish ground. I bet you're the sort of charachter that have been to about 20 different grounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Your forum reputation is growing (but not necessarily in a good way.......... ) Yes!! Now i've really made it. I always wanted to have a reputation on an internet forum. It's at times like this you wish this forum had a round of applause smiley face icon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 And Wycombe is a newish ground. I bet you're the sort of charachter that have been to about 20 different grounds. About 30 odd I think. Not sure why that's funny, I'd say that's a fairly average number. I wouldn't have said Adam's Park and Glanford Park looked that new when I was there. Maybe it's just because they were the old school 4 seperate stands style, as opposed to the large bowls Saints, Coventry, Boro, Cardiff etc have. I suppose it depends on which game you went to for the individual atmosphere. I went to Swindon in the league cup this season and it was pretty quiet. Having no roof on the away stand behind the goal didn't help for accoustics, but even so it wasn't great. Went to Oldham under Pardew, when Connolly scored on his debut. There was a pocket of 40 odd Saints fans singing with maybe 100 Oldham fans accross the segregation but it was nothing to write home about. Maybe the 6-0 was better last year, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Do you wish Saints stayed at The Dell? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Listen to Sour Mash and JRM everyone. They are the voice the football fan. I hear they are building a time machine to take them back to the 80's so they can sit behind a pillar in a stadium which is only one discarded cigarette away from setting them alight. I hope they finish it soon so they can stop boring us all with their nostalgic chips on their shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Yes!! Now i've really made it. I always wanted to have a reputation on an internet forum. It's at times like this you wish this forum had a round of applause smiley face icon. You've now got the power to make it happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Listen to Sour Mash and JRM everyone. They are the voice the football fan. I hear they are building a time machine to take them back to the 80's so they can sit behind a pillar in a stadium which is only one discarded cigarette away from setting them alight. I hope they finish it soon so they can stop boring us all with their nostalgic chips on their shoulders. Just read through your posts, you're probably one of the most boring, unnoticed people on here. Go back to sleep you cretin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Do you wish Saints stayed at The Dell? I do Yes If Saints were still at The Dell they'd probably be a lower Championship side (or even a League One side) indefinitely with little hope of improvement in the future and wouldn't have attracted Markus Liebherr to the club. Yes, they survived for 27 years in the top flight with an average position of 12th in that time, but it is unlikely Saints would be able to maintain top flight status for long or regain it if they were still at The Dell in modern football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 If Saints were still at The Dell they'd probably be a lower Championship side (or even a League One side) indefinitely with little hope of improvement in the future and wouldn't have attracted Markus Liebherr to the club. Yes, they survived for 27 years in the top flight with an average position of 12th in that time, but it is unlikely Saints would be able to maintain top flight status for long or regain it if they were still at The Dell in modern football. At least if we were still at the Dell you'd have a basis for the arguement that we need to expand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 At least if we were still at the Dell you'd have a basis for the arguement that we need to expand. - We sold out The Dell, you say I'd have a basis of an argument to expand. - We sold out St Mary's, you say we don't have a basis of an argument to expand. Make up your mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 - We sold out The Dell, you say I'd have a basis of an argument to expand. - We sold out St Mary's, you say we don't have a basis of an argument to expand. Make up your mind! We had a waiting list for season tickets at the Dell. We dont at St Marys We could have sold out the Dell twice over for some game. This has never happened at St Marys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 If Saints were still at The Dell they'd probably be a lower Championship side (or even a League One side) indefinitely with little hope of improvement in the future and wouldn't have attracted Markus Liebherr to the club. Yes, they survived for 27 years in the top flight with an average position of 12th in that time, but it is unlikely Saints would be able to maintain top flight status for long or regain it if they were still at The Dell in modern football. Selevtive quoting? I said with an increased capacity. Not hard to understand is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 We had a waiting list for season tickets at the Dell. We dont at St Marys. Why are you so wrapped up with waiting lists? Other clubs that have expanded weren't bothered by them, why should Saints? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Selevtive quoting? I said with an increased capacity. Not hard to understand is it? No you didn't. You said "the only thing it lacked was capacity". You didn't say the capacity should be increased, you just said it lacked capacity. In any case to say The Dell with more seats would have been a good stadium and is the "only thing it lacked" is nonsense. It was lacking many of the things we now have at St Mary's and take for granted. Plus there simply wasn't any room to expand at The Dell site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Why are you so wrapped up with waiting lists? Other clubs that have expanded weren't bothered by them, why should Saints? Waiting lists are evidence that current capacity is too small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Just read through your posts, you're probably one of the most boring, unnoticed people on here. Go back to sleep you cretin. Oh no! I've always wanted to be noticed on an internet message board : ( You're right though Sour Mash and I'm going to use you as my football message board mentor to improve. After all, your endless posts on ticket policy, price, new grounds etc are really exciting and I'm sure are the highlight of all who come on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Waiting lists are evidence that current capacity is too small. I agree, they are. But a lack of a waiting list or a small waiting list does not mean that a capacity increase isn't required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Oh no! I've always wanted to be noticed on an internet message board : ( You're right though Sour Mash and I'm going to use you as my football message board mentor to improve. After all, your endless posts on ticket policy, price, new grounds etc are really exciting and I'm sure are the highlight of all who come on here. You're the one that piped up and started mentioning me, I've never heard of you before. I'd stick to being a non-entity pal, it suits you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 You're the one that piped up and started mentioning me, I've never heard of you before. I'd stick to being a non-entity pal, it suits you. Yea I'll leave being an internet forum superstar to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Back on topic... the Comment from the Everton fans re investment makes me laugh. I have never understood waht fan mean when they are demanding someone come in and invest in the. Because in a true financial sense an investment implies a return - and wor betide anyone who thinks its acceptable to take money 'out' of a club - according to most fans everyone involved should do it for free and the love of the club ;-) - certainly want they really mean is someone to come in and give them loads of cash... and not expect anything else in return. sure who can potentially buy a club for 20 mil - invest 150 mil in a new stadium and the another 150 mil in a squad, but the club wont eb worth 320 mil as a result.... Seriously though, what do they want? A new owner who builds them a new ground and 'gifts' them cash to spend on a squad capable of winning things? Well many sit and watch enviously as clubs like City and Chelsea go mad with their cheque books and it certainly works, in terms of trophies... but is it really they way football should go? sure you can argue that its the reality of the modern game. Scudamore has done a gtreat PR and marketing job on the PL and the money it attracts from broadcasters and rich oligarchs and arabs is perverse - the clubs as play things for the rich - is that reallly what fans now want? I am not so sure - I like the fact we have stability now and that it appears we have some provision to gradually improve the squad, but the thing i have alwys liked is the fact we see the value in developing talent - now we just have to provide an environment and competition to keep them a bit longer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 FC - you can't on the one hand criticise Citeh and Chelsea as playthings of the rich when we are exactly that... Truth is, that's life. It always was. Chairmen have bought and sold football clubs for years. And even where they didn't own them, they've run them as such! As for Everton fans, they've always been the second best club in that city. What they see is another club in the same position have turned the tables and they're envious, who wouldn't be, in fairness. But football is cyclical - when I first started watching, Chelsea came within a point of relegation to the third division!! Big names will rise, big names will fall. Football will carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Ever present in the top league since 1954, quite a record. Is this second only to Arsenal ?, who I believe have never been out of the top league ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now