Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 will be a good guage if we need to expand SMS or not. Early kick off against a team that was in the top flight his time last year and on telly two weeks before christmas. If we get 30,000 or more i would say those banging on about it will have a case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 25k tops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Between 20 and 22k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I've kept out of these discussions to now, but actually agree - doesn't even seem a particularly antagonistic post Sadly you just know that we'll struggle to get more than around 25k in tomorrow. What's Blackpool's away attendance like? Long old way to travel for an early game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jones91 Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Lets judge it on a boring monday lunchtime kick off against a standard championship side (Palace in a couple of weeks for example). Especially as money is tight this time of year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikee Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I might have taken your post more seriously if you hadn't waited until it was obvious we are going to get a small crowd before posting. will you be saying the same about the next home game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Lets judge it on a boring monday lunchtime kick off against a standard championship side (Palace in a couple of weeks for example). Especially as money is tight this time of year. We will have plenty of boring early kick offs live on TV in the premier league. If we dont get 30,000 plus tomorrow as a top of the league side going for a record home win. There are plenty of excuses. Everyone is skint, christmas is two weeks away, it's on telly,christmas shopping, the weathers been a bit naff etc. Tomorrow we will see if we have a loyal 30k plus fan base turning out despite of this or if we have fair weather fans who will only turn out for the big ones. If this is the case, no argurment that we need to expand. End of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I might have taken your post more seriously if you hadn't waited until it was obvious we are going to get a small crowd before posting. will you be saying the same about the next home game? Why is it obvious? If we need to expand then we should be selling out these less attractive fixtures that are on TV. I'd expect a club that needs 44,000 seats to sell at least 30,000 for games like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I reckon one of our lowest home attendances of the season tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Well I for one wont be there. Lucky me, I'll be working in p*rtsm**th. ffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexstar Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Why is it obvious? If we need to expand then we should be selling out these less attractive fixtures that are on TV. I'd expect a club that needs 44,000 seats to sell at least 30,000 for games like this. Should we? Or is the expansion just the added possibility of being able to shift more tickets for games that will sell out. Nobody knows the potential cost, but if it is relatively low then having extra seats for the say 5 times we sell out in a season (below the Prem) could be cost-effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Well I for one wont be there. Lucky me, I'll be working in p*rtsm**th. ffs What's this?! we have so-called 'fans' on here who dont attend every home game. Surely they dont have a right to an opinion. Ban them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Turkish you can be funny, but do you not even bore yourself by coming out with this whole attendance stuff on a regular basis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Should we? Or is the expansion just the added possibility of being able to shift more tickets for games that will sell out. Nobody knows the potential cost, but if it is relatively low then having extra seats for the say 5 times we sell out in a season (below the Prem) could be cost-effective. Do you think it is sensible to spend £30m expanding a stadium to possibly only fill it five times a season? Or would that be idiotic and the road to bankruptcy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexstar Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Do you think it is sensible to spend £30m expanding a stadium to possibly only fill it five times a season? Or would that be idiotic and the road to bankruptcy? And where exactly did you get that figure from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Reckon it'll be a push to get 20k in for this one, just one of those games that doesn't really appeal to people unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 23,248 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benj Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I won't be there as I don't finish work in Winchester until 13:00, thanks sky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 (edited) will you be saying the same about the next home game? Boxing day's always an attractive fixture, hardly a fair test. Look, clearly most of Turkish's posts are on the wind-up, but there's a point behind this one. We know for a fact that there's enough match-attending Saints fans to fill St. Mary's and then some, but it takes an occasion as big as Wembley to get them all together at the same time. Even in the Prem you're not going to have the pull to get all of those people to turn up week-in, week-out. Anybody that thinks we're suddenly going to double the number of season ticket holders if we manage promotion is a little delusional, IMO. I guess the truth will become even more clear in the second half of the season - if we're still up near the top and regularly selling out then there might be a bit more of a case for an expansion. Strikes me of counting chickens before they're hatched to even suggest it anyway. No guarantee of promotion, no guarantee of a strong enough level of support, no guarantee of Premiership stability even if we get there... I'm one of the optimists but it's one thing to plan ahead and quite another to make that sort of investment, risking leaving the club with a crippling bill and half-empty stadium. Edited 9 December, 2011 by ant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieDog Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Blackpool website said they had sold a massive 377 this morning. 30k is unrealistic, but we should be looking at having the largest crowd in the division. That would be a better indicator. UNfortunately I don't think we will get either. Lucky to be over 20k I would say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 And where exactly did you get that figure from? http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/view_from_the_chapel/9371165.St__Mary_s_expansion__Seems_unlikely__/ Lowe said £3k per seat ages ago. 10000 extra seats x £3000 per seat = £30m. It isn't difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 23k... max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Boxing day's always an attractive fixture, hardly a fair test. Look, clearly most of Turkish's posts are on the wind-up, but there's a point behind this one. We know for a fact that there's enough match-attending Saints fans to fill St. Mary's and then some, but it takes an occasion as big as Wembley to get them all together at the same time. Even in the Prem you're not going to have the pull to get all of those people to turn up week-in, week-out. Anybody that thinks we're suddenly going to double the number of season ticket holders if we manage promotion is a little delusional, IMO. It isnt a wind up, it's a serious point. People on here think we need to expand. If we have 10000 empty seats for this one then why do we need to? Unless we sell out or nearly do for games like this then there is no need whatsoever to expand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Fair enough. I expanded my post a bit after initially submitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexstar Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 It isnt a wind up, it's a serious point. People on here think we need to expand. If we have 10000 empty seats for this one then why do we need to? Unless we sell out or nearly do for games like this then there is no need whatsoever to expand. Surely a fairer test would be this fixture in the premier league? Cortese clearly has ambition and I would hazard a guess he doesn't feel we need 44,000 for a championship future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Surely a fairer test would be this fixture in the premier league? Cortese clearly has ambition and I would hazard a guess he doesn't feel we need 44,000 for a championship future. If we only get say 20,000 tomorrow, do you think it is realistic to expect and addition 24,000 fans to turn up for a game live on TV, two weeks before xmas against, say Stoke, Bolton or Fulham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 If we have 10000 empty seats for this one then why do we need to [expand]? Because, maybe someone (let's call him Nicola) has worked out that filling a 45,000 seater stadium 25% of the season (in the premier league) is more economical than filling a 30,000 seater stadium 50% of the season (in the premier league). If it happens it will be done on pure economic terms rather than ideaological terms (in my opinion). You don't need to fill a stadium approaching 100% of the time to make expansion economically viable. That said, I haven't got the figures to hand to be able to validate the economics so I'll leave that to those that do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom & Gerry Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 As the Echo thinks it's a 3pm kick (page 69) I don't suppose their reporter will be there for one. A few other people might miss it as a result as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsash saint Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 If we only get say 20,000 tomorrow, do you think it is realistic to expect and addition 24,000 fans to turn up for a game live on TV, two weeks before xmas against, say Stoke, Bolton or Fulham? But didn't we do just that when we were in the Premiership ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jones91 Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Its threads like this that back up our massive fan base, variety of opinions etc - simply because we have so many fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 But didn't we do just that when we were in the Premiership ?? No, we regularly sold out, but we didn't turn 12,000 people away everyweek. It was a handful at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 will be a good guage if we need to expand SMS or not. Nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 No, we regularly sold out, but we didn't turn 12,000 people away everyweek. It was a handful at best. So when Saints sold out to teams like Bolton, Charlton etc in the Premier League and when they sold out to Man Utd, Arsenal etc in the Premier League you think the same number of people that wanted tickets, couldn't get tickets and those numbered a mere "handful". Bizarre! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 So when Saints sold out to teams like Bolton, Charlton etc in the Premier League and when they sold out to Man Utd, Arsenal etc in the Premier League you think the same number of people that wanted tickets, couldn't get tickets and those numbered a mere "handful". Bizarre! You think we were turning away thousands every week? Bizarre!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 You think we were turning away thousands every week? Bizarre!!! Between 2001 and 2005 a huge number of games sold out including those against the lesser Premier League clubs. People wouldn't even try for tickets as soon as the sold out sign went up. So they wouldn't have tried to purchase tickets for them to be classified as "turned away". That doesn't mean they didn't have an interest in going if the capacity was larger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Between 2001 and 2005 a huge number of games sold out including those against the lesser Premier League clubs. People wouldn't even try for tickets as soon as the sold out sign went up. So they wouldn't have tried to purchase tickets for them to be classified as "turned away". That doesn't mean they didn't have an interest in going if the capacity was larger. 10,000 people regularly didn't bother getting tickets because they didn't think they'd get them? Do you know anyone of these 10,000? I dont. I dont remember the old S4E site being full of frustrated fans saying SMS was too small. My missus worked in the ticket office at this time, she didn't report back of the thousands of disapointed faces when the "sold out" signs went up. It's only you that seems to think we were turning thousands away or thousands weren't bothering every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 (edited) 10,000 people regularly didn't bother getting tickets because they didn't think they'd get them? Do you know anyone of these 10,000? I dont. I dont remember the old S4E site being full of frustrated fans saying SMS was too small. My missus worked in the ticket office at this time, she didn't report back of the thousands of disapointed faces when the "sold out" signs went up. It's only you that seems to think we were turning thousands away or thousands weren't bothering every week. I find it hard to take seriously someone that thinks if a club can sell out a 32k stadium against Bolton, Charlton, West Brom etc, that it couldn't sell a lot more against Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Man City etc. You massively underestimate the interest raised in the region and beyond of playing such sides at Premier League level from casual fans. The interest level for a fixture against Bolton is not even close to one against Man Utd. They would not have the same attendance if the stadium capacity wasn't limited at 32k. It is odd you think Saints have a capped support of 29k fans max in the home ends and even if they fill that against a small side, no more will turn up against a bigger side. Edited 9 December, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I find it hard to take seriously someone that thinks if a club can sell out a 32k stadium against Bolton, Charlton, West Brom etc, that it couldn't sell a lot more against Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Man City etc. You massively underestimate the interest raised in the region and beyond of playing such sides at Premier League level from casual fans. To be honest, I wouldn't want our capacity to be bigger because we would struggle to sell out for Pompey games etc. That would be very embarrassing if there were empty seats against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 To be honest, I wouldn't want our capacity to be bigger because we would struggle to sell out for Pompey games etc. That would be very embarrassing if there were empty seats against them. If Saints are promoted and increase capacity, I think it will be unlikely they would play Pompey again anytime soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I find it hard to take seriously someone that thinks if a club can sell out a 32k stadium against Bolton, Charlton, West Brom etc, that it couldn't sell a lot more against Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Man City etc. You massively underestimate the interest raised in the region and beyond of playing such sides at Premier League level from casual fans. I find it hard to take someone seriously who thinks that because Wolves are expanding their ground we need to and because Chelsea got 13k 20 years ago we will get 44k in the future. i find it hard to take someone seriously who thinks that because we just about managed to sell 32k in 2003-05 regularly we will sell 12k more than that in 2015. I struggle to take someone seriously who thinks spending 36m on expanding a stadium is a good idea because we can give more tickets to away fans and give them out to kids for free. I struggle to take anyone seriously who claims thousands of fans will travel the 200+ miles from Cornwall and Devon to watch premier league football. I struggle to take anyone seriously who thinks we need to expand to 44k when we are averaging 20k less than that at the moment. I struggle to take anyone seriously who thinks 12,000 people regularly didn't bother trying to get tickets in 2004 because they didn't think they'd get one. I struggle to take anyone seriously who thinks we should expand a stadim to 44k and incur £36m of debt because we might fill it it, possibly, one day, who knows, ignore the evidence that we have no waiting list for season tickets, we just might, afterall look at Fulham, they are neaer Chelsea and get 25k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I find it hard to take someone seriously who thinks that because Wolves are expanding their ground we need to and because Chelsea got 13k 20 years ago we will get 44k in the future. i find it hard to take someone seriously who thinks that because we just about managed to sell 32k in 2003-05 regularly we will sell 12k more than that in 2015. I struggle to take someone seriously who thinks spending 36m on expanding a stadium is a good idea because we can give more tickets to away fans and give them out to kids for free. I struggle to take anyone seriously who claims thousands of fans will travel the 200+ miles from Cornwall and Devon to watch premier league football. I struggle to take anyone seriously who thinks we need to expand to 44k when we are averaging 20k less than that at the moment. I struggle to take anyone seriously who thinks 12,000 people regularly didn't bother trying to get tickets in 2004 because they didn't think they'd get one. I struggle to take anyone seriously who thinks we should expand a stadim to 44k and incur £36m of debt because we might fill it it, possibly, one day, who knows, ignore the evidence that we have no waiting list for season tickets, we just might, afterall look at Fulham, they are neaer Chelsea and get 25k. Do you struggle to take Cortese seriously? He is the one spending time and money planning for a 44k stadium, not me. Do you not think he has more information available to him than you or I? I think the chances we will see an announcement concerning a stadium increase or even relocation relatively soon considering what Cortese has been saying already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Do you struggle to take Cortese seriously? He is the one spending time and money planning for a 44k stadium, not me. Do you not think he has more information available to him than you or I? I think the chances we will see an announcement concerning a stadium increase or even relocation relatively soon considering what Cortese has been saying already. I do when he says things like he wants Champions League football in 5 years and when he says he wants to expand a stadium that hasn't sold out on a regular basis for over 6/7 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I do when he says things like he wants Champions League football in 5 years and when he says he wants to expand a stadium that hasn't sold out on a regular basis for over 6/7 years. This. If anyone seriously thinks anyone would spend £36m to expand a stadium without an absolute certainty that there is a very good chance they'd get the money back then they are mental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 (edited) I do when he says things like he wants Champions League football in 5 years He knows the financial backing available to him, we don't. If he said this, he has shown little reason to doubt his resources don't match his ambitions so far. Saints have gone from 68th in England when he took charge, to 21st in England in two and a half years. They are building a training ground that wouldn't look out of place at a top 5 side. Why bother with that level of investment if you don't aim to compete? They could have built a cheaper one but decided not to. When he says he wants to expand a stadium that hasn't sold out on a regular basis for over 6/7 years. Why do you doubt Premier League football wouldn't see a return to 30k+ averages at St Mary's. The 7 year gap means little, as soon as the Premier League is the product the casual Saints fans will flood back. Just look at the West Ham game for example. A tuesday night in the second tier against a relatively glamourous side and we have an all time club record. There are a number of more attractive fixtures than that should Saints be promoted and have a team of internationals of their own to watch. Edited 9 December, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I'm working so won't be there. Low turnout i imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 He knows the financial backing available to him, we don't. If he said this, he has shown little reason to doubt his resources don't match his ambitions so far. Saints have gone from 68th in England when he took charge, to 21st in England as things stand today. Why do you doubt Premier League football wouldn't see a return to 30k+ averages at St Mary's. The 7 year gap means little, as soon as the Premier League is the product the casual Saints fans will flood back. Just look at the West Ham game for example. A tuesday night in the second tier against a relatively glamourous side and we have an all time club record. There are a number of more attractive fixtures than that should Saints be promoted and have a team of internationals of their own to watch. Premier league football would see the "sold out" signs again. But not "sold out and 12,000 turned away every week" signs. That is what you are on about. We would need to have crowd of almost DOUBLE what we average at the moment. We would need to turn away almost half our average current crowd, EVERY WEEK. As for your first point, do you think the Liebherrs have become billionaire because they spend large sums of money, like £36m for example, with compelling evidence they will see a return on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 He knows the financial backing available to him, we don't. If he said this, he has shown little reason to doubt his resources don't match his ambitions so far. Saints have gone from 68th in England when he took charge, to 21st in England in two and a half years. They are building a training ground that wouldn't look out of place at a top 5 side. Why bother with that level of investment if you don't aim to compete? They could have built a cheaper one but decided not to. Behave. It is FAR easier getting a club of Saints size from League One back to the top of the Championship, then it is to get such a club competing for Champs League places. Football is a funny old game and none of us never know what will happen in the future, but I reckon if you're expecting Champions League football at St Marys in the near future you're going to be sorely disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Premier league football would see the "sold out" signs again. But not "sold out and 12,000 turned away every week" signs. That is what you are on about. We would need to have crowd of almost DOUBLE what we average at the moment. We would need to turn away almost half our average current crowd, EVERY WEEK. You keep going on about "turning fans away". That simply wouldn't happen and didn't happen last time Saints were in the Premier League. Saints sold tickets to season ticket holders and members, for some games it didn't even reach general sale before it sold out. Once a game is sold out you don't need to "turn away" people because there are aware there is nothing to buy. As for your first point, do you think the Liebherrs have become billionaire because they spend large sums of money, like £36m for example, with compelling evidence they will see a return on it? What do you count as "compelling evidence"? Why wouldn't they see a return on it? It adds value to the club for the point in the future that they sell it on. If it did cost £36 million, the stadium could well be in place for decades to come. The money would be recouped by the club. In any case £36m is small change to a billionaire and as it is the estate of Liebherr owning the club it may have been his wish to see his money used to improve the future of the club and its infrastructure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 He knows the financial backing available to him, we don't. If he said this, he has shown little reason to doubt his resources don't match his ambitions so far. Saints have gone from 68th in England when he took charge, to 21st in England in two and a half years. They are building a training ground that wouldn't look out of place at a top 5 side. Why bother with that level of investment if you don't aim to compete? They could have built a cheaper one but decided not to. Why do you doubt Premier League football wouldn't see a return to 30k+ averages at St Mary's. The 7 year gap means little, as soon as the Premier League is the product the casual Saints fans will flood back. Just look at the West Ham game for example. A tuesday night in the second tier against a relatively glamourous side and we have an all time club record. There are a number of more attractive fixtures than that should Saints be promoted and have a team of internationals of their own to watch. We would have to go on some kind of Man City/Chelsea spending spree then to achieve CL football in 5 years. I just find the whole thing so ridiculous I can't even take that statement seriously. In order for us to expand; we would have to sell out regularly, have at least 24k season ticket holders (with a significant waiting list) and do so for a number of years. Look at the likes of Liverpool and Spurs - both have sold out on a regular basis at home for god knows how long, both have massive waiting lists for season tickets and only in the last few years have they (seriously) started to sound out the possibility of moving grounds or expanding and we have nowhere near their level of support - not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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