Dave's Maggie Moment

[Guided Missile]

The FSA were found wanting, Brown and co. ccked up on many issues, but that's like moaning about the police and forgetting that the crooks are the real problem out there.

It's more like moaning about the Government making mugging legal and then having your wallet stolen, you mean.

[Verbal]

Anyway, back on the topic of the Cameron cock-up, the inner circle of countries now in greater control of EU economic and banking policy-making will press ahead with the transaction tax, and exclude Britain from any discussion about how banks are regulated.

 

No wonder there's embarrassed silence from the square mile.

 

Can any of Cameron's cheerleaders on here say exactly what he is supposed to have actually won?

[dune]

65% of the public back his decision, red ed still saying it was a mistake? ..he really knows how to shoot himself in the foot doesnt he

 

The arrogance of the Liberal Elite knows no bounds.

[Whitey Grandad]

He's going through the same thought processes that will eventually sink in elsewhere: Cameron has acted with all the tactical sense of those commanding the Charge of the Light Brigade.

It's a little known fact that it was the French who protected the left flank of the charge and enabled the survivors to get back to the British lines.

[Window Cleaner]

 

Can any of Cameron's cheerleaders on here say exactly what he is supposed to have actually won?

 

That would be the esteem of 35 million deltas and epsilons,give or take a few.

[Guided Missile]

...the inner circle of countries now in greater control of EU economic and banking policy-making will press ahead with the transaction tax, and exclude Britain from any discussion about how banks are regulated...

 

Legal advice seen by The Daily Telegraph warns that the breakaway group of 26 countries cannot use the EU institutions or change European treaties without Britain’s consent.The advice was drawn up by senior officials and lawyers working for the Council of the EU, the service that advises governments on the legality of their decisions.

 

Although, I must admit that we all thought that invading Poland was illegal, although that didn't stop Germany...

[um pahars]

Total ******...

 

So you're still insisiting that Myners awarded Goodwin his pension then????

 

Funny how former Chairman McKillop (who was happy to slate Myners at the time) said they were contractually bound to pay the pension and that there was no question of any discretion being exercised in relation to his pension and no discretion was exercised by any RBS Director.

 

The Myners/RBS row was over how much he said he knew, the faux outrage, the "not rewarding failure" rhetoric, Myners claiming the RBS Board had used their discretion to enhance the pay off, BUT certainly not being responsible for the awarding of the pension in the first place.

 

That was the direct result of an existing contract that had to be honoured.

 

Even after RBS was "nationalised" the new CEO led an internal investigation to see if the decision could be reversed, but found nothing could be done.

[dune]

No wonder there's embarrassed silence from the square mile.

 

I know it's not scientific, but I saw a feature on the News where they asked a sample of city workers what they thought of DC's stance and they all thought he'd done the right thing. The continentals may well try to shaft the city now, but if they do it will drive public opinion further away from the EU project and imo hasten our withdrawal. I'm all for a free trade common market, but I utterly detest poltical and fiscal union and it is the latter which the EU has always been about as far as the French and Germans are concerned.

[Whitey Grandad]

I think that it's going to be a little while before the true ramifications manifest themselves, but I feel that Cameron is going to be like Basil Fawlty who storms out of the hotel only to find himself outside in the rain.

[um pahars]

It's more like moaning about the Government making mugging legal and then having your wallet stolen, you mean.

 

Not the best analogy John.

 

The banks (and other entities) acted like completely irresponsible shysters (particulalry some of those in the US) and whilst the FSA have accepted some of the blame for issues relating to RBS, they are also quite clear that the ultimate failure was down to the managements at the bank itself.

 

I think it was Peston who said the FSA neither had the bark nor the bite needed. The FSA did not perform, but to use it as a scapegoat to excuse the damage perpetrated by the banks is somewhat passing the buck.

[View From The Top]

I think that it's going to be a little while before the true ramifications manifest themselves, but I feel that Cameron is going to be like Basil Fawlty who storms out of the hotel only to find himself outside in the rain.

 

Yep.

 

As it was explained to me yesterday by someone in the business, German/France can now dictate how banking within the Euro circle can be conducted and as sure as God made little green apples it will the at the expense of The City.

 

He's suitably concerned that he's decided not to move house and increase his mortgage as he predicts serious trouble ahead.

 

As I said earlier, we are still bound by the same rules/regs, still pay the same amount and have been excluded from future modelling of the Euro economies and The City isolated so I can't se how we've "won" anything but unsure what could have been done differently.

 

DC appeared hamstrung by internal politics.

[Guided Missile]

A few facts:

 

Lord Myners is a tax dodging, ineffectual, naive, socialist peer and class traitor.

 

Cameron rescued the UK from signing up to a treaty with the following aims:

 

1) A golden rule on deficit limits for all member states,

2) Automatic penalties (presumably in the form of sanctions) for countries that break that rule, and

3) A requirement that member states submit their budgets to the EU authorities for approval before they can be considered by their own national parliaments.

 

Luckily for Lord Myners, he isn't subject to the same degree of control that the French and Italians will be subject to, as he favours tax dodging overseas havens.

 

 

I know the lefties on here have a nostalgia for the policies of the Soviet Union, but I don't....

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

No, I'm agreeing with you! Of course Italy and Spain may well default. But that's a problem for the BANKS not the euro. The ECB is constitutionally forbidden to buy sovereign debt, so if Italy and Spain default, and whizz out of the euro, the euro is stronger; it's the banks that suffer (hence the panic about Commerzbank).

 

You still haven't addressed my point about the huge likely damage to the City as a result of Cameron's veto - but probably the best thing to do is wait and see. The opinion of many is that the City will be shut out of transaction-taxed euro trades - a huge market it has so far cornered. To prevent this damage, Cameron would have to have some strong bargaining chips - which is precisely what he no longer has.

 

Unfortunately it is more than just the bank's worry - that is why we everyone keeps meeting hoping that the Germans will underwrite everyone's debt.

 

Nobody knows what the outcome will be for the city. It depends on how vindictive our French and German friends will be.

 

It always amuses me how the most vociferous and outraged are the ones who wanted us in the Euro in the first place. That discredits them significantly.

[Verbal]

A few facts:

 

Lord Myners is a tax dodging, ineffectual, naive, socialist peer and class traitor.

 

Cameron rescued the UK from signing up to a treaty with the following aims:

 

1) A golden rule on deficit limits for all member states,

2) Automatic penalties (presumably in the form of sanctions) for countries that break that rule, and

3) A requirement that member states submit their budgets to the EU authorities for approval before they can be considered by their own national parliaments.

 

Luckily for Lord Myners, he isn't subject to the same degree of control that the French and Italians will be subject to, as he favours tax dodging overseas havens.

 

 

I know the lefties on here have a nostalgia for the policies of the Soviet Union, but I don't....

 

I especially miss the Fifth World Congress of the Comintern - except for the baseball fallacy of 'world'.

[um pahars]

A few facts:

 

Lord Myners is a tax dodging, ineffectual, naive, socialist peer and class traitor.

 

A bit like my old boss and former Taunton's student Clive Hollick then, BUT he still didn't award Goodwin with his outrageous and out of touch pension, that's one thing he can't be tarred with.

 

On a seperate issue, would it be OK to be a tax dodging capitalist/Conservative, because I'm afraid the Champagne Socialists haven't got a monopoly on unethical and immoral behaviour of that kind (in fact I'd say they're probably massively outranked in the tax dodging stakes.

 

Cameron rescued the UK from signing up to a treaty with the following aims:

 

1) A golden rule on deficit limits for all member states,

2) Automatic penalties (presumably in the form of sanctions) for countries that break that rule, and

3) A requirement that member states submit their budgets to the EU authorities for approval before they can be considered by their own national parliaments.

 

Totally agree, losing the ability to set your own fiscal policy is outrageous, unrepresentative and undemocratic. There is no way we should have agreed to such a doctrine.

 

I know the lefties on here have a nostalgia for the policies of the Soviet Union, but I don't....

 

I think you'll find many of the lefties are just as outraged by the idea of surrendering fiscal policy to an undemocratic Central Bank/Bureaucrat. You must have missed this earlier.

 

 

Consider this: as Paul Mason has written, "by enshrining in national and international law the need for balanced budgets and near-zero structural deficits, the eurozone has outlawed expansionary fiscal policy".

 

Read that last bit carefully. Left-wing governments of all hues will, in effect, be banned by this treaty. If the French or the German left returns to power in the near future (and both are in a good position to do so), it will be illegal for them to respond to the global economic catastrophe with anything but austerity. An economic stimulus is forbidden – because the treaty has buried Keynesianism.

 

Cameron opposed the treaty because he feared the effect it would have on the City, which,after all, bankrolls his party. But just because he opposed the treaty doesn't mean the automatic response of the left should be to throw its weight behind it. I proudly marched against the invasion of Iraq; I wasn't deterred by the fact the BNP opposed it, too.

 

François Hollande – the Scoialist candidate for the French presidency – has already spoken out against a treaty cooked up by Europe's overwhelmingly right-of-centre governments. If we're going to listen to European leaders, Hollande is a sounder bet than avowed right-wingers like Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel.

 

After this stitch-up, the left really needs to have a long, hard think about its attitude to the EU as it is currently constructed. There's still a sense that any criticism of the EU puts you in the same box as swivel-eyed Ukip-ers who rant about gypsies in shire inns. But there's a powerful left critique that needs to be made.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Anyway, back on the topic of the Cameron cock-up, the inner circle of countries now in greater control of EU economic and banking policy-making will press ahead with the transaction tax, and exclude Britain from any discussion about how banks are regulated.

 

No wonder there's embarrassed silence from the square mile.

 

Can any of Cameron's cheerleaders on here say exactly what he is supposed to have actually won?

 

I am not sure that people are actually celebrating but if you look at the polls he has increased its stock among voters. You could conclude that is what he won.

[Jonnyboy]

I know the lefties on here have a nostalgia for the policies of the Soviet Union, but I don't....

 

Just because you got excited having seen Dunes new avatar don't go thinking anyone of a left leaning nature has no interest in democracy or wants to be controlled by another country.

[Verbal]

I am not sure that people are actually celebrating but if you look at the polls he has increased its stock among voters. You could conclude that is what he won.

 

So the total sum of what Cameron has won is a fleeting bit of popular approval?

 

Woop de doop.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

So the total sum of what Cameron has won is a fleeting bit of popular approval?

 

Woop de doop.

 

Doing the right thing was probably the only thing to be won.

 

Did you want us to join the Euro or like the others who did stare at their feet when you ask.

[Verbal]

Doing the right thing was probably the only thing to be won.

 

Did you want us to join the Euro or like the others who did stare at their feet when you ask.

 

Dave wasn't there to be forced into joining the euro. He was there to protect our honourable British bankers (see GM's evidence above) from the nasty EU, and to not be made to look stupid by Sarkozy.

 

As he scored an epic fail in both of those (stupid in comparison with Sarkozy? Really, Dave?), I suppose we should all be grateful that Cameron is basking in a momentary bit of glory. Seems a high price to pay though...

 

Meanwhile, the bankers themselves and the EU carry on as before, one waiting for the other to deliver the sucker punch.

[View From The Top]

Doing the right thing was probably the only thing to be won.

 

Did you want us to join the Euro or like the others who did stare at their feet when you ask.

 

One could suggest that it wasn't the best thing, more the only thing.

 

And, for the record, I was always anti as were everyone I know, left & right, bar 1, and that was for business reasons only.

[solentstars]

Yep.

 

As it was explained to me yesterday by someone in the business, German/France can now dictate how banking within the Euro circle can be conducted and as sure as God made little green apples it will the at the expense of The City.

 

He's suitably concerned that he's decided not to move house and increase his mortgage as he predicts serious trouble ahead.

 

As I said earlier, we are still bound by the same rules/regs, still pay the same amount and have been excluded from future modelling of the Euro economies and The City isolated so I can't se how we've "won" anything but unsure what could have been done differently.

 

DC appeared hamstrung by internal politics.

 

That's how I see it and its only the ldiots who think its about winning like the second world war is still going on.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[solentstars]

A few facts:

 

Lord Myners is a tax dodging, ineffectual, naive, socialist peer and class traitor.

 

Cameron rescued the UK from signing up to a treaty with the following aims:

 

1) A golden rule on deficit limits for all member states,

2) Automatic penalties (presumably in the form of sanctions) for countries that break that rule, and

3) A requirement that member states submit their budgets to the EU authorities for approval before they can be considered by their own national parliaments.

 

Luckily for Lord Myners, he isn't subject to the same degree of control that the French and Italians will be subject to, as he favours tax dodging overseas havens.

 

 

I know the lefties on here have a nostalgia for the policies of the Soviet Union, but I don't....

 

Oh dear

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Dave wasn't there to be forced into joining the euro. He was there to protect our honourable British bankers (see GM's evidence above) from the nasty EU, and to not be made to look stupid by Sarkozy.

 

As he scored an epic fail in both of those (stupid in comparison with Sarkozy? Really, Dave?), I suppose we should all be grateful that Cameron is basking in a momentary bit of glory. Seems a high price to pay though...

 

Meanwhile, the bankers themselves and the EU carry on as before, one waiting for the other to deliver the sucker punch.

 

I was talking about joining the Euro all those halcyon days ago. Were you in favour?

 

It is rather tacky to go down the 'wicked banker' line - it is 10% of our economy and 1.7m jobs depend on it. Cameron had two choices as I pointed out before; get screwed now or wait for the foreplay to buy some time.

[solentstars]

So the total sum of what Cameron has won is a fleeting bit of popular approval?

 

Woop de doop.

 

Yes let's all have a national holiday to celebrate lol

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

One could suggest that it wasn't the best thing, more the only thing.

 

And, for the record, I was always anti as were everyone I know, left & right, bar 1, and that was for business reasons only.

 

Europe and the Euro were a good idea just badly executed. A trading superstate; would be great but unfortunately politics make it impossible.

[scotty]

Europe and the Euro were a good idea just badly executed. A trading superstate; would be great but unfortunately politics make it impossible.

 

tbh Sergei, I always thought the euro was a terrible idea for reasons that are all too clear now. If the eurozone initiators had actually stuck to their principles when it started, and not allowed Greece, Portugal, and (massively) Italy into it in the first place it would have stood a chance of imposing fiscal realism on countries that just needed a small dose of it. As it was, they bent their own rules and fudged the whole thing right from the start just to get as many countries into the project as they could. I honestly dont understand why the Germans stood for it, they must have been aware that the Greeks standard position is rack up the debts and then default, just as they cant have failed to realise that Italy simply added a few zeros to the Lire every decade or so. Whatever the reason, they shouldn't bleat about it now, it was Germany and France that drove the entire project. We made it pretty clear that our flirtation with the ERM was likely to be our final experiment with it, and it annoys the hell out of me when they whinge about us being "part in and part out" of europe.

[alpine_saint]

The Slade brothers were drinking in the Grapes in Southampton and were left on the quay, as the Titanic sailed for New York. The passengers waved to them, as the liner made its way down Southampton Water, mentioning to each other how they were so unfortunate to be left behind and would not be able to have a say, in how the deck chairs were going to be arranged on the deck.

 

hehehehe. Quality.

 

Never knew we had so many loony left wahnkahs on here. Seems to be a bit of correlation with happy-clappiness as well..

[alpine_saint]

Being serious and non-jingoistic for a moment, I take on board the comments about one way or the other the City was going to lose out on Friday by whatever was decided, and that the pain may now be even worse.

 

But for me, the UKs participation in the EU, and the ridiculous horse-trading, corruption and bullying that goes with it, has reached the last chapter, and a massive re-alignement of the UK economy away from the services sector back to manufacturing has been up to 2 decades overdue anyway.

 

As someone on SKy News said yesterday, the UK needs to re-invent itself as the European equivalent of S. Korea and start using our pedigree for innovation to start making quality and sought-after products again. As the Germans have proven, make decent products and people will pay that extra.

 

And FFS, keep the f**king unions away from the project...

 

Britain sits on the cusp of its greatest opportunity since the Industrial Revolution.

[Saintandy666]

Being serious and non-jingoistic for a moment, I take on board the comments about one way or the other the City was going to lose out on Friday by whatever was decided, and that the pain may now be even worse.

 

But for me, the UKs participation in the EU, and the ridiculous horse-trading, corruption and bullying that goes with it, has reached the last chapter, and a massive re-alignement of the UK economy away from the services sector back to manufacturing has been up to 2 decades overdue anyway.

 

As someone on SKy News said yesterday, the UK needs to re-invent itself as the European equivalent of S. Korea and start using our pedigree for innovation to start making quality and sought-after products again. As the Germans have proven, make decent products and people will pay that extra.

 

And FFS, keep the f**king unions away from the project...

 

Britain sits on the cusp of its greatest opportunity since the Industrial Revolution.

 

Germany has a totally different set up to the UK though, and it would take massive overhaul to make us more like them, and to be honest... I can't see any government taking that leap, just like they refuse to take that leap with the Green Economy.

 

I don't think the solution is to become Germany, Germany has its niche and it works well for them. We need to create our own new niche if we want to move away from our financial sector niche and for me I think we should invest heavily in hi-tech green economy.

[alpine_saint]

Germany has a totally different set up to the UK though, and it would take massive overhaul to make us more like them, and to be honest... I can't see any government taking that leap, just like they refuse to take that leap with the Green Economy.

 

I don't think the solution is to become Germany, Germany has its niche and it works well for them. We need to create our own new niche if we want to move away from our financial sector niche and for me I think we should invest heavily in hi-tech green economy.

 

I am OK with that idea. The German economy is heavily dependent on car production, and thats in trouble long-term anyway.

[Saintandy666]

I am OK with that idea. The German economy is heavily dependent on car production, and thats in trouble long-term anyway.

 

The problem is for total economic overhaul, there has to be state intervention. The markets won't commit 100% to for example a green economy overhaul until it becomes evident that it will make more profit in the short term and so please share holders. It won't do it until it is too late. Capitalism and the free market have many great sides, but one of its weaknesses is this which is why it will always need to be balanced with regulation so that the long term can be looked after as well.

 

But yes, Cameron and co need to get involved properly. The green investment bank is a start, but it needs better co-ordination and more resource.

[dune]

What a mockery the bombardier decision makes of turning us into a exporting nation. I'm still disgusted about that.

[Jonnyboy]

Being serious and non-jingoistic for a moment, I take on board the comments about one way or the other the City was going to lose out on Friday by whatever was decided, and that the pain may now be even worse.

 

But for me, the UKs participation in the EU, and the ridiculous horse-trading, corruption and bullying that goes with it, has reached the last chapter, and a massive re-alignement of the UK economy away from the services sector back to manufacturing has been up to 2 decades overdue anyway.

 

As someone on SKy News said yesterday, the UK needs to re-invent itself as the European equivalent of S. Korea and start using our pedigree for innovation to start making quality and sought-after products again. As the Germans have proven, make decent products and people will pay that extra.

 

And FFS, keep the f**king unions away from the project...

 

Britain sits on the cusp of its greatest opportunity since the Industrial Revolution.

 

Are you gonna come back and help us out then?

[swannymere]

So what gains have the Tory Aristocracy actually achieved? Can anyone say without resorting to insults or Dune-type ********??

[Verbal]

So what gains have the Tory Aristocracy actually achieved? Can anyone say without resorting to insults or Dune-type ********??

 

Asked and answered. The crowning and only achievement is that Dave is slightly more popular this weekend than last...and next.

[hypochondriac]

So what gains have the Tory Aristocracy actually achieved? Can anyone say without resorting to insults or Dune-type ********??

 

Cameron wasn't in a great situation either way. He chose the correct option as the alternative option was much worse. He took the right decision.

[Saintandy666]

Cameron wasn't in a great situation either way. He chose the correct option as the alternative option was much worse. He took the right decision.

 

He was backed in those two options being the only options by his conduct since becoming Prime Minister though. He has not been diplomatic. I seriously don't think he expected Merkel and Sarkozy to effectively say '**** you, go on then' when he threatened to veto.

 

Plus, he didn't consult anyone it seems before doing it. Most definitely not the Lib Dems(which is why they are so ****ed off, they are in a COALITION after all), and it does not feel like he did the Tories either tbh... also, Hague said earlier Cameron was right not to agree with the deal, not that he was right to veto the whole thing.

[Verbal]

This morning, the papers are full of news about how quickly the whole thing is unravelling around Dave's ankles.

 

The Indy sums it up nicely in their editorial. Election by May is my guess.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-experiment-in-pluralism-may-have-run-its-course-6275779.html

[Verbal]

And then the other shoe drops...

 

Maggie never had a moment as idiotic as this.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/10/business-reaction-cameron-eu-veto

 

'Even in the City, whose interests Cameron was avowedly defending when he flew to Brussels, there were fears that the prime minister had overplayed his hand. A month ago, an unprecedented coalition of all the City's major traders – encompassing banks, hedge funds, stockbrokers and derivatives dealers – warned in an open letter to Osborne of the dire consequences of an EU-wide transaction tax that they feared a new treaty could bring. In some business areas, up to 90% of all transactions could flee London, it said. Yet after the veto, even some of the signatories are privately warning that it could backfire against Britain.

 

'"It doesn't protect us, it exposes us," says one.'

[angelman]

If we do get "kicked out" of Europe (which I don't think will happen) it will be nice to have the option for self determination once more, which the EU hates and takes away from all member states, presumably for the "greater good". Then maybe we could start rebuilding this country. If we are competitive enough, then there won't be any problems with exports.

 

Anyway, all these years, we have paid our share, obeyed the rules like nobody else (well possibly the Dutch have), paid a far higher percentage for defence than anyone else and generally been good Europeans, except for not wanting to throw away Sterling. Now, giving Merkozy plenty of warning that we couldn't agree to their terms for a new treaty especially if it meant attacking the City, everyone seems surprised that we have put our foot down.

[View From The Top]

What a mockery the bombardier decision makes of turning us into a exporting nation. I'm still disgusted about that.

 

That's the sort of decision where DC should have "stood up to Europe".

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

This morning, the papers are full of news about how quickly the whole thing is unravelling around Dave's ankles.

 

The Indy sums it up nicely in their editorial. Election by May is my guess.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-experiment-in-pluralism-may-have-run-its-course-6275779.html

 

Yes I was surprised that the Indy and the Guardian took a negative line.

[badgerx16]

It's a little known fact that it was the French who protected the left flank of the charge and enabled the survivors to get back to the British lines.

And the only reason Wellington fought at Waterloo was the promise of German ( Prussian ) reinforcements, and less than half of his army were British ( the rest being a mix of German, Dutch, and Belgian ).

Edited 12 December, 2011 by badgerx16

[pap]

Anyway, back on the topic of the Cameron cock-up, the inner circle of countries now in greater control of EU economic and banking policy-making will press ahead with the transaction tax, and exclude Britain from any discussion about how banks are regulated.

 

No wonder there's embarrassed silence from the square mile.

 

Can any of Cameron's cheerleaders on here say exactly what he is supposed to have actually won?

 

My view is that Cameron did the right thing for the wrong reasons.

 

We seriously need to re-examine what the EU stands for. Right now, it seems that paying back debt is a higher priority than democracy. If you need any evidence of that, look at the technocratic governments installed in Italy and Greece.

 

If Cameron had signed up to a new treaty, he'd effectively be validating the EU's course of action. Right now, it doesn't seem like we've won anything apart from the condemnation of our neighbours. However, that conclusion assumes that the EU's master plan to sort it all out is actually going to work. We may look like pariahs at the moment, but we could end up looking pretty astute if the EU's plans go t*ts-up.

[alpine_saint]

Yes I was surprised that the Indy and the Guardian took a negative line.

 

:lol:

[alpine_saint]

This morning, the papers are full of news about how quickly the whole thing is unravelling around Dave's ankles.

 

The Indy sums it up nicely in their editorial. Election by May is my guess.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-experiment-in-pluralism-may-have-run-its-course-6275779.html

 

Yes thats right, must have been written before the serious backpedalling from Danny Alexander...

 

The last thing you want mate is an election being called now because the LibDems walk away; you'll end up with a Tory majority AND a f**king referendum.

[dune]

The latest yougov poll makes pleasant reading.

 

Con 38

Lab 39

Lib 11

 

It's interesting how the gap has closed. I wonder why?

[hypochondriac]

He was backed in those two options being the only options by his conduct since becoming Prime Minister though. He has not been diplomatic. I seriously don't think he expected Merkel and Sarkozy to effectively say '**** you, go on then' when he threatened to veto.

 

Plus, he didn't consult anyone it seems before doing it. Most definitely not the Lib Dems(which is why they are so ****ed off, they are in a COALITION after all), and it does not feel like he did the Tories either tbh... also, Hague said earlier Cameron was right not to agree with the deal, not that he was right to veto the whole thing.

 

Many believe that the French took a deliberately tough line to get us out. That isn't Cameron's fault.

[Frank's cousin]

hehehehe. Quality.

 

Never knew we had so many loony left wahnkahs on here. Seems to be a bit of correlation with happy-clappiness as well..

 

Oh dear, back to your rather infantile habit of throwing around insults without actually knowing anything about those who may express certain opinions - you really are odd.... 'Looney left'? not heard that one since about 1983 during Thatchers reign... comical really.

 

What this whole thread sums up is exactly why a referendum on EU memebership would be so unwise. Because NO BODY on here has demonstrated they have the knowledge or understanding to ultimately determine waht is is Britains best interests - speculation argument, counter argument usually focussed on one issue, when the pros and cons of EU membership can not be so simplistically argued. I dont have the answer either as I dont know enough about all the variables to draw any conclusions - and this thread seems full of thsoe who liek their own rhetoric, but are unwilling to explore any discussion on any opposing position.

 

Do posters on here really think they have the theoretical and practical understanding of sufficient economic principles to say what is right economically for the UK long term, when the experts cant agree?

 

Are the anti Euro/monitary union posters on here really that arrogant that they believe they could have foreseen the current crisis - without the benefit of hindsight? Is the Euro problem a problem of financial union or one which has been created as a result of the global economic crisis? Brought about by banks and governments and irresponsible greed... not the Euro?

 

Interestingly, as its a Tory paper, the Telegraph ran a nice little predictor in 2000 to try and see where the world would be in 2020 - they predicted an eventual Euro-dollar link up (maybe tongue in cheek) but perhaps most telling was their statement taht Britain would still be considering whether it was a good or bad thing....

 

And that IS what sets us apart from the rest of the EU... the preoccupation with the fading empire - we either want to lord it over everyone or sulk in the corner - we were happy when we could tell the commonwealth what to do and how to run their countries, but when up against the bigger kids in the playground we get scared. We could now be at the heart of DIRECTING policy in Europe, using our experience, and considerable weight to drive change for the better and (and in our interests) if we had always been in the top 2 or 3 seats . I make no apologies for suggesting that a major part of the sceptism form the right (as we can see with the splits) has nothing to do with economic arguments, but simply down to nationalism. Now if thats what you believ say so and admit it, dont try and hide your view on this behind some pseudo specultive attempts at 'understanding' the vastly complex ecomonic elements of the debate.

 

I have nothing more than a surface persepctive on the ecomonic arguments and no poster on here has written anything that suggests they know much more (despite some arrogance to the contrary), so for me its suggests that maybe, just maybe we woudl be better placed helping to shape it in our favour, than watching the Germans and French go it alone? Simple question and simple reasoning.