Dave's Maggie Moment

[dune]

Do you really believe half of the sh*t you post?

 

No.

 

I believe all the sh/t I post. The reason for this is that myself, and all Eurosceptics, have consistently been proved right.

 

The real world versus "Wades World".

[dune]

Sorry to digress but put SKY News on. They are going to the champsionship leaders Southampton after the break....

[Barney Trubble]

Most of those are takers, not givers! they'd say yes to anything, to remain in the 'Franco/Germanic' gang.

 

I think that statement nails it for me.

 

Questions that countries will seek to find.

 

1) What do we stand to lose?

 

2) What do we stand to gain?

 

If the overall gain is greater then the loss then some of these countries will vote 'Yes'......they are all feathering their own nest and Cameron was right to ensure they didn't take the feathers to do this from our own little nest.

 

Countries like Lithuania are spitting their dummy, I wonder why that is? Take, take, take!!!!

[sperm_john]

what have the germans and the french ever done for us anyway?

[dune]

what have the germans and the french ever done for us anyway?

 

The French were responsible for the Industrial revolution as our wars with them drove the necessity. This enabled the our finest days of Empire!

[Frank's cousin]

It's always illuminating when those who hold a skeptical view of the EU are depicted as vile 'nationalists', while EU enthusiasts on the other hand are presumed to be above all that for some reason. But the EU is surely just another national state in the making, its single currency and now proposals for de facto economic control from the centre prove the point beyond dispute I would have thought.

 

I say the further the seat of power is removed away from the people the less representative of those very same people it must become. Of course large sections of our 'Political Class' would like to be a part of the ever more centralised EU because this offers them a unique opportunity to gain more power and influence in the world, but the true motivation behind that need is very often one of furthering their own ambitions rather than some selfless desire to better represent the interests of ordinary people. It was ever thus with ambitious politicians I'm afraid.

 

Personally instead of centralising political power in Brussels I think we should be devolving, or a least retaining more of it, so that it better represents what our British interests are rather than massaging the egos of a remote pan-European political elite. The people of the British Isles can choose to be ruled from London or Brussels I suppose - I know which option I'd prefer but lets face it, either way we'll be ruled from somewhere.

 

Its just that so many of those (especially that post on here ) that would be classed as Eurosceptic do not disassociate they sceptisism of EU integration from their 'nationalism'. You mention an interesting point around declining levels of democracy versus centralisation... Ironically the party that is most for localsed control and teh reduction of centralised government - the Greens - are perhaps further to the left than the run of the mill socialists!

 

I am all for localised government of certain things - it IS far more democratic, but there are also distinct advantages to certain things being more centralised from an economic standpoint - we do live in a global economic environment afterall - But I am not an economist so cant state categorically what is the best approach within a global market - lets just say though that the current system which allows economies such as China to grow rapidly is because when workers get paid $2 a day so that Dune can buy his iPod for £150 rather than £800 if build in the UK does seem a tad distorted. If he is happy with that and morally at peace with it, nowt I will say will make him change his mind, but he forgets one of the key issues about communism - The 'failed experiment' in the former eastern block was NOT communism - in the way it was envisaged. It was an attempt that failed primarily because Stalin created a dictatorship of sorts, removed freedoms and what followed was a progressive isolationism with a huge chunk of their economy spent on an arms race during the cold war. Communism is NOT about keeping everyone poor - the stages of evolution were to ultimately lead to shared WEALTH not poverty - a fine ideal, but not possible for one nation unless it has all the resources, technology and culture. I am not saying it would ever work, but to dismiss the ideals based on both misunderstaning and the failure in the USSR is simply ignorant. BUt if Dune is happy with the teh current global approach that allows us to be exploit workers in other nations for the sake of cheap imports and teh the vastly disproportionate distribution of wealth... uess tha's why he's a Tory....

[ART]

Remember that Cameron knew too well that Sarkozy faces an election in May 2012 and Sarkozy 34% is trailing Francois Holland's 60% of intended votes. Along with the German Socialists the Socialists refuse to support Merkozy. or to apply the Golden Rule. Everything is open and to play for. Sarkozy is electioneering, playing to the French public, hoping to gain their favor. If. as expected. the euro continues to fail, for Britain, there is everything still to play for, and withthe sure chance of coming out on top

[alpine_saint]

Breaking News EU: Ireland may have to hold a referendum on building a fiscal union in the eurozone, Minister for European Affairs Lucinda Creighton says - Reuters.

 

Well thats not a problem for Sarkozy and Merkel - Eire will vote yes just to spite Britain (despite we privately bailed them out a while back).

[buctootim]

Well thats not a problem for Sarkozy and Merkel - Eire will vote yes just to spite Britain (despite we privately bailed them out a while back).

 

Ireland will vote yes because they would be totally and utterly screwed without support from the other none PIIG nations, nothing to do with spiting Britain.

[dune]

Ireland will vote yes because they would be totally and utterly screwed without support from the other none PIIG nations, nothing to do with spiting Britain.

 

Correct. They gave up their freedom and became slaves the minute they joined the Euro. Thank god we didn't.

[Verbal]

There seems to be some confusion on here between failing public finances in some countries and the fate of the euro itself. If you check the exchange rate between the pound and the euro, the latter is anything but failing - it continues to be historically strong against the pound, and the pound tends to track the euro up and down. The euro will certainly (and obviously) survive the ejection from it of countries like Greece, assuming the inevitable happens and it defaults. If anything, this is likely in the medium term to strengthen the euro, and it'll be seen by markets as a better bet than the pound (the fact that it is seen as no worse even now is telling.)

 

Greece will default, leave the euro, and pursue a course already taken by other major defaulters like Argentina (which de-coupled from the US$, heavily devalued, went into a further tailspin, before competitive international trading advantages eventually kicked in. The country is now back to something like health - all in all an 8-10 year cycle.)

 

So the euro will be strengthened by Greece's exit (and perhaps by other defaults too).

 

Meanwhile, the advantages that the City in London has enjoyed from being the main trading centre in Europe for euro transactions will fall away as new EU regulations, proposed this week, insist upon such trades being conducted within the eurozone. The City will suffer - and hey presto, Cameron (who, the word is, exceeded his brief from officials for precisely this reason) will have achieved the very opposite of what he presumably intended, and actually undermined the City's dominant trading position.

[View From The Top]

Corky Morris has some interesting views about the transfer of toxic debt to the UK (independent) subsidiaries of Euro banks as a result of the decision made by Cameron.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

There seems to be some confusion on here between failing public finances in some countries and the fate of the euro itself. If you check the exchange rate between the pound and the euro, the latter is anything but failing - it continues to be historically strong against the pound, and the pound tends to track the euro up and down. The euro will certainly (and obviously) survive the ejection from it of countries like Greece, assuming the inevitable happens and it defaults. If anything, this is likely in the medium term to strengthen the euro, and it'll be seen by markets as a better bet than the pound (the fact that it is seen as no worse even now is telling.)

 

Greece will default, leave the euro, and pursue a course already taken by other major defaulters like Argentina (which de-coupled from the US$, heavily devalued, went into a further tailspin, before competitive international trading advantages eventually kicked in. The country is now back to something like health - all in all an 8-10 year cycle.)

 

So the euro will be strengthened by Greece's exit (and perhaps by other defaults too).

 

Meanwhile, the advantages that the City in London has enjoyed from being the main trading centre in Europe for euro transactions will fall away as new EU regulations, proposed this week, insist upon such trades being conducted within the eurozone. The City will suffer - and hey presto, Cameron (who, the word is, exceeded his brief from officials for precisely this reason) will have achieved the very opposite of what he presumably intended, and actually undermined the City's dominant trading position.

 

Sometimes Verbal you remind me of comical Ali. You talk of Greece defaulting but seem to ignore the fact that Italy and Spain will be the catalyst for the downfall of the Euro. All that this treaty has achieved is to put into place future defensive mechanisms against over spending and has ignored the core debt issue and even the fact that the Greek and Iatlian debt level continues to rise. You also seem to not understand that if the Euro survives with just the stronger economies like Germany then the value of the Euro will jump and undermine their export ability and they will not like that. At least Osbourne is trying to address our debt.

 

As for the city, you are probably right and that is something that can only be addressed by a future re-negotiations. We must carry some weight in a future Europe because we basically pay so much into the pot and take so little out. What could Cameron do? A large chunk of our economy has been threatened why not try to support it. Why do the Germans or the French not harmonise alcohol duty rates to discourage border trade? They bat for themselves just as much as we do; their politicians have to get re-elected after all. What are your thoughts on the implications for democracy in Europe? Do you not think that in future there will be massive repercussions among the peoples of countries who cannot make their own decisions?

[Verbal]

Sometimes Verbal you remind me of comical Ali. You talk of Greece defaulting but seem to ignore the fact that Italy and Spain will be the catalyst for the downfall of the Euro. All that this treaty has achieved is to put into place future defensive mechanisms against over spending and has ignored the core debt issue and even the fact that the Greek and Iatlian debt level continues to rise. You also seem to not understand that if the Euro survives with just the stronger economies like Germany then the value of the Euro will jump and undermine their export ability and they will not like that. At least Osbourne is trying to address our debt.

 

As for the city, you are probably right and that is something that can only be addressed by a future re-negotiations. We must carry some weight in a future Europe because we basically pay so much into the pot and take so little out. What could Cameron do? A large chunk of our economy has been threatened why not try to support it. Why do the Germans or the French not harmonise alcohol duty rates to discourage border trade? They bat for themselves just as much as we do; their politicians have to get re-elected after all. What are your thoughts on the implications for democracy in Europe? Do you not think that in future there will be massive repercussions among the peoples of countries who cannot make their own decisions?

 

I'm afraid you're the laughter machine here, Sergei. You might need to address my central point that the euro, which you seem so convinced is heading down the pan, is still trading so strongly against the pound. And you're inadvertently confirming my other point, that the more the dodgy economies are ejected by default from the euro, the stronger the euro is. I don't 'ignore' Italy and Spain (or Portugal or Ireland) defaulting - on the contrary, the more the merrier as far as the currency traders are concerned, as long as it's not the core euro countries of France, Germany and the Benelux.

 

As for Cameron, it remains to be seen just how much damage he's done to the City by offering the French and the Germans the golden opportunity to restrict euro transactions to transaction-taxed eurozone banks (logical - otherwise the French and the Germans would be saying: Hey, let's give the City a huge unfair advantage!). But damage there will be - and Cameron will be negotiating from a position of far greater weakness.

[alpine_saint]

Ireland will vote yes because they would be totally and utterly screwed without support from the other none PIIG nations, nothing to do with spiting Britain.

 

So when do they start bombing Berlin and Paris ?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I'm afraid you're the laughter machine here, Sergei. You might need to address my central point that the euro, which you seem so convinced is heading down the pan, is still trading so strongly against the pound. And you're inadvertently confirming my other point, that the more the dodgy economies are ejected by default from the euro, the stronger the euro is. I don't 'ignore' Italy and Spain (or Portugal or Ireland) defaulting - on the contrary, the more the merrier as far as the currency traders are concerned, as long as it's not the core euro countries of France, Germany and the Benelux.

 

As for Cameron, it remains to be seen just how much damage he's done to the City by offering the French and the Germans the golden opportunity to restrict euro transactions to transaction-taxed eurozone banks (logical - otherwise the French and the Germans would be saying: Hey, let's give the City a huge unfair advantage!). But damage there will be - and Cameron will be negotiating from a position of far greater weakness.

 

Noone is laughing this end Verbal. Who bails out the Italians and the Spanish? How do you overcome the fundmental flaw that markets are issuing debt in a currency they cannot control.

[bridge too far]

It seems Nick Clegg is 'very angry' and there are some thoughts the coalition might not see out the full term of government. Some very interesting articles here http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/10/nick-clegg-david-cameron-europe-veto including one on the dismay of enterprise in the UK at Cameron's actions.

[Verbal]

Noone is laughing this end Verbal. Who bails out the Italians and the Spanish? How do you overcome the fundmental flaw that markets are issuing debt in a currency they cannot control.

 

But the markets are assuming defaults! (The Greeks, certainly; others probably.) Hence, the strength of the euro - unless you're suggesting the buyers of euros are a sentimental bunch. The more the southern European defaulters flame out, the more likely in the medium term the euro persists.

 

And, as I say, Cameron has inadvertently created a situation that may ultimately screw over the City, at least as far as euro transactions are concerned, and with his severely weakened bargaining position, there will be little he can do about it.

[Verbal]

It seems Nick Clegg is 'very angry' and there are some thoughts the coalition might not see out the full term of government. Some very interesting articles here http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/10/nick-clegg-david-cameron-europe-veto including one on the dismay of enterprise in the UK at Cameron's actions.

 

Interesting. Elections by the end of next year perhaps?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

But the markets are assuming defaults! (The Greeks, certainly; others probably.) Hence, the strength of the euro - unless you're suggesting the buyers of euros are a sentimental bunch. The more the southern European defaulters flame out, the more likely in the medium term the euro persists.

 

And, as I say, Cameron has inadvertently created a situation that may ultimately screw over the City, at least as far as euro transactions are concerned, and with his severely weakened bargaining position, there will be little he can do about it.

 

So you genuinely believe that the Italians and then the Spanish debt burden which continues to spiral will not be an issue in a years time? You think that Politically having your budgets controlled by essentially Germany will not be a massive issue in future. You also fail to address the fundemental flaw of the Euro.

 

Sadly you are as bad as the Eurosceptics that seem to be ecstatic at the result of the use of the veto which means that nobody wins.

 

What else could Cameron do? Get screwed now or wait for the foreplay to buy a bit of time.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Interesting. Elections by the end of next year perhaps?

 

Cameron has all to win from an election because ultimately he took the right action.

[Saintandy666]

It seems Nick Clegg is 'very angry' and there are some thoughts the coalition might not see out the full term of government. Some very interesting articles here http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/10/nick-clegg-david-cameron-europe-veto including one on the dismay of enterprise in the UK at Cameron's actions.

 

I guess isolation from Europe wasn't in the coalition agreement, so you could be right. I certainly can see Europe ripping not only the coalition apart, but the entire conservative party.

[dune]

I guess isolation from Europe wasn't in the coalition agreement, so you could be right. I certainly can see Europe ripping not only the coalition apart, but the entire conservative party.

 

You must be joking. DC has pulled off a masterstroke. The country is behind him and his party are behind him. He has acted like a true Conservative and that is what is needed for the party and the country.

[Saintandy666]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/10/paddy-ashdown-foreign-policy

 

Paddy Ashdown mostly talking sense. He's right, we aren't an Atlantic nation anymore, the US has redefined itself as pacific and now we aren't really influencing Europe. We're more isolated and uninfluential than we have been for years.

[Verbal]

So you genuinely believe that the Italians and then the Spanish debt burden which continues to spiral will not be an issue in a years time? You think that Politically having your budgets controlled by essentially Germany will not be a massive issue in future. You also fail to address the fundemental flaw of the Euro.

 

Sadly you are as bad as the Eurosceptics that seem to be ecstatic at the result of the use of the veto which means that nobody wins.

 

What else could Cameron do? Get screwed now or wait for the foreplay to buy a bit of time.

 

No, I'm agreeing with you! Of course Italy and Spain may well default. But that's a problem for the BANKS not the euro. The ECB is constitutionally forbidden to buy sovereign debt, so if Italy and Spain default, and whizz out of the euro, the euro is stronger; it's the banks that suffer (hence the panic about Commerzbank).

 

You still haven't addressed my point about the huge likely damage to the City as a result of Cameron's veto - but probably the best thing to do is wait and see. The opinion of many is that the City will be shut out of transaction-taxed euro trades - a huge market it has so far cornered. To prevent this damage, Cameron would have to have some strong bargaining chips - which is precisely what he no longer has.

[View From The Top]

You must be joking. DC has pulled off a masterstroke. The country is behind him and his party are behind him. He has acted like a true Conservative and that is what is needed for the party and the country.

 

Not really. We are paying the same amount in and are govern by the same rules and regs we were a week ago. He's clawed back nowt but given away our voice at the top table.

 

I fear he's been played like a fiddle by the French and Germans and the undoubted push by the tory right for a referendum could rip his party asunder.

[Whitey Grandad]

You must be joking. DC has pulled off a masterstroke. The country is behind him and his party are behind him. He has acted like a true Conservative and that is what is needed for the party and the country.

 

It may be seen as a popular move but nothing but harm can come from it.

[Saintandy666]

Not that I agree with what he wanted, but if he did want it then ge should have been trying to build alliances in the last few months rather than posturing and mouthing off ****ing everyone in Europe off. He's achieved nothing for the UK except to remove us from negotiations about the future of Europe. Maybe if he had been more constructive and diplomatic, he might have been able to use a bit more influence and got some of the safeguards he wanted. Instead, he got nothing.

[badgerx16]

You must be joking. DC has pulled off a masterstroke. The country is behind him and his party are behind him. He has acted like a true Conservative and that is what is needed for the party and the country.

 

No the country is not behind him, it's just the way the majority of the press, being right wing europhobes, are bound to report it. The only way to determine how the country feel is to hold a .....now what's the word.........hang on I'll get it in a moment.......that's it, a referendum !

[badgerx16]

Labour and the Liberal Democrats warned Britain was now dangerously isolated. There was growing evidence that Cameron has left Britain powerless to resist new European tax raids on the City.

While he opted out of a *Europe-wide *transactions tax, British firms who operate abroad will be subject to it in the European countries where they trade. But unlike those countries, the Government will have no say in setting the tax rate or how it is administered.

 

 

Business Secretary Vince *Cable has told Nick Clegg he should never have agreed to Cameron rejecting the EU deal. Mr Cable said: *“Fin*ancial service regulation was not nearly a big enough issue to use the veto.”

 

More details emerged last night of the panic that led to Mr Cameron’s decision. As well as facing a Tory backbench rebellion, the PM was warned that Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith and Northern Ireland Secretary Owen Paterson were close to quitting, the Sunday Mirror has learned.

 

...............................Lib Dem peer Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay says: “Cameron has cut Britain off from her main trading partners. It is deeply dangerous. Millions of jobs all over Britain, not just a few thousand in the City, have been put at risk.”

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/news/2011/12/11/david-cameron-overplayed-his-hand-on-europe-says-source-as-coalition-comes-under-huge-strain-115875-23626059/#ixzz1gBSvYI4I

 

[badgerx16]

From the Mail on Sunday :

 

The Lib Dem peer Lord Greaves said: ‘David Cameron is a petulant fool who went to Brussels and shouted his mouth off.

 

Lib Dem Euro MP Edward McMillan-Scott, who defected from the Tories, branded Mr Cameron ‘an unprincipled spiv’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2072637/Humiliation-Nick-Clegg-Cameron-didnt-phone-Lib-Dem-leader-warn-historic-veto.html#ixzz1gBTgtNe1

[angelman]

Our economy is so tightly bound into trading with Europe that we have to be able to influence what happens with the Euro - as far as the rest of the world is concerned we are 'in' and we will be treated accordingly, regardless of how isolationist we pretend to be. The ONLY solution to this issue is a referendum, but nobody in Westminster is willing to risk this - the Tories for fear of a 'yes' vote, and the LDs and Labour for fear of a 'no'.

 

The only funny thing about the current situation is remembering Alex Salmond's comments on an independent Scotland being able to operate "like Ireland or Iceland, on the edge of the EU".

 

Economy scaremongers are loving this. The reality is of course somewhat different.

 

Exports to EU for 2011 until end of September 2011 = £118,196,730,000

Imports from EU for 2011 until end of September 2011 = £150,799,563,000

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=euearlypub

 

 

So that's a £32bn Balance of Payments deficit in 9 months, so let's call that £40bn for the year. Then add £8bn a year or so for nett contributions, and round up a bit and call it £50bn that we "give" to EU via trade and contributions. I am not sure if our Balance of Payments with the rest of the world is still in surplus, but it certainly was up to 4 or 5 years ago, and I can't see that much having changed.

[badgerx16]

Even Dune's pin-up boy isn't happy !

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16111356

 

The UKIP leader said David Cameron "had gained nothing" dealing with European leaders in Brussels after he vetoed an EU-wide treaty change.

Nigel Farage said British financial markets were left vulnerable and it could lead to more EU regulation of the City of London, with Britain now in the "worst of all worlds".

[badgerx16]

Economy scaremongers are loving this. The reality is of course somewhat different.

 

Exports to EU for 2011 until end of September 2011 = £118,196,730,000

Imports from EU for 2011 until end of September 2011 = £150,799,563,000

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=euearlypub

 

 

So that's a £32bn Balance of Payments deficit in 9 months, so let's call that £40bn for the year. Then add £8bn a year or so for nett contributions, and round up a bit and call it £50bn that we "give" to EU via trade and contributions. I am not sure if our Balance of Payments with the rest of the world is still in surplus, but it certainly was up to 4 or 5 years ago, and I can't see that much having changed.

 

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=noneufullreport&hasFlashPlayer=true

 

• UK’s Non EU exports have increased by £1.3 billion (11.6 per cent) compared to September 2011, to £12.7 billion. Compared to October 2010, exports have increased by £2.1 billion (19.9 per cent).
  
• UK’s Non EU imports have increased by £0.8 billion (4.7 per cent) compared to September 2011, to £17.9 billion. Compared to October 2010 imports have increased by £1.9 billion (11.9 per cent).
  

That seems to be a monthly deficit of £5.2 Bn.

 

So based on monthly figures slightly over half of our exports go into the EU.

Edited 11 December, 2011 by badgerx16

[dune]

Not really. We are paying the same amount in and are govern by the same rules and regs we were a week ago. He's clawed back nowt but given away our voice at the top table.

 

I fear he's been played like a fiddle by the French and Germans and the undoubted push by the tory right for a referendum could rip his party asunder.

 

It could, but it could also lead to a referendum. When you talk about the right of the Tory Party you are talking about the real Tory Party especially at rank and file level, and you are also talking about most people in this country.

[dune]

Economy scaremongers are loving this. The reality is of course somewhat different.

 

Exports to EU for 2011 until end of September 2011 = £118,196,730,000

Imports from EU for 2011 until end of September 2011 = £150,799,563,000

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=euearlypub

 

 

So that's a £32bn Balance of Payments deficit in 9 months, so let's call that £40bn for the year. Then add £8bn a year or so for nett contributions, and round up a bit and call it £50bn that we "give" to EU via trade and contributions. I am not sure if our Balance of Payments with the rest of the world is still in surplus, but it certainly was up to 4 or 5 years ago, and I can't see that much having changed.

 

A good sensible post amongst the point scoring. Tell us more.

[scotty]

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=noneufullreport&hasFlashPlayer=true

 

• UK’s Non EU exports have increased by £1.3 billion (11.6 per cent) compared to September 2011, to £12.7 billion. Compared to October 2010, exports have increased by £2.1 billion (19.9 per cent).
  
• UK’s Non EU imports have increased by £0.8 billion (4.7 per cent) compared to September 2011, to £17.9 billion. Compared to October 2010 imports have increased by £1.9 billion (11.9 per cent).
   
   
   
  

That seems to be a monthly deficit of £5.2 Bn.

 

So based on monthly figures slightly over half of our exports go into the EU.

 

 

I think the point angelman was making is that we import more from europe than we export to it, and that we are one of the largest net contributors to the european budget. It follows that all the scaremongering about europe not wishing to trade with us because that nasty david cameron used the veto in the british national interest is just hot air. They get more from us than we get from them.

[CB Saint]

When the Tobin tax is introduced in Europe (if it is now they have lost their cash cow) I reckon all the European banks will relocate their non eu operations to London to avoid the tax. After all their city spivs just as bad as ours.

[JustMike]

When you've got the one eyed idiot proclaiming an end to boom and bust some stupid people will believe it. Banking is essentially professional gambling, and the problem has been that they took odds against punts thinking they were safer than they actually were.

 

 

...and yet still managed to award themselves huge bonuses! Crooks, the lot of them

[Verbal]

When the Tobin tax is introduced in Europe (if it is now they have lost their cash cow) I reckon all the European banks will relocate their non eu operations to London to avoid the tax. After all their city spivs just as bad as ours.

 

They'd be prohibited from doing so under the proposals being discussed last week. London would lose all its euro-deominated trades - a massive loss.

 

I understand the sense of euphoric glee that's followed Cameron's veto, but the damaging effects of it are highly likely to unwind for months and years to come. The oddest thing is that Cameron made the specific point to other EU heads that he wasn't interested in anything or anyone other that the major British banks - and yet he's probably damaged them as well.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Its just that so many of those (especially that post on here ) that would be classed as Eurosceptic do not disassociate they sceptisism of EU integration from their 'nationalism'. You mention an interesting point around declining levels of democracy versus centralisation... Ironically the party that is most for localsed control and teh reduction of centralised government - the Greens - are perhaps further to the left than the run of the mill socialists!

 

I am all for localised government of certain things - it IS far more democratic, but there are also distinct advantages to certain things being more centralised from an economic standpoint - we do live in a global economic environment afterall - But I am not an economist so cant state categorically what is the best approach within a global market - lets just say though that the current system which allows economies such as China to grow rapidly is because when workers get paid $2 a day so that Dune can buy his iPod for £150 rather than £800 if build in the UK does seem a tad distorted. If he is happy with that and morally at peace with it, nowt I will say will make him change his mind, but he forgets one of the key issues about communism - The 'failed experiment' in the former eastern block was NOT communism - in the way it was envisaged. It was an attempt that failed primarily because Stalin created a dictatorship of sorts, removed freedoms and what followed was a progressive isolationism with a huge chunk of their economy spent on an arms race during the cold war. Communism is NOT about keeping everyone poor - the stages of evolution were to ultimately lead to shared WEALTH not poverty - a fine ideal, but not possible for one nation unless it has all the resources, technology and culture. I am not saying it would ever work, but to dismiss the ideals based on both misunderstaning and the failure in the USSR is simply ignorant. BUt if Dune is happy with the teh current global approach that allows us to be exploit workers in other nations for the sake of cheap imports and teh the vastly disproportionate distribution of wealth... uess tha's why he's a Tory....

 

The grossly inequitable distribution of wealth in this county, and even more crucially on a worldwide basis, is indeed a enormous moral and economic issue confronting humanity. As one of those on a (relatively) low income by our standards, which in turn forces me to buy £5 pairs of trousers at Primark .. etc (doubtless made by some poor sod in a awful 3rd world sweatshop somewhere) I'm not sure if I'm the victim, or the perpetrator, of a crime. Are we exploiting the poor, or sustaining them ... a bit of both maybe ?

 

You could I suppose argue that the unrestricted movement of (very often cheap Eastern European) labour within the EU has done much to depress the income of a great many ordinary working people in this country - such as myself for instance. If it wasn't for a bottomless pit of cheap (nominally Communist) Chinese labour ready to be exploited, where would the world economy be today I wonder ? These are big questions and if I gave the impression that I know any of the answers to them then I fear I may have been misleading the forum !

 

But these questions and the historically fate of Soviet style communism are surely rather separate issues to what our future position within the European Union should be.

[CB Saint]

"euphoric glee" do me a favour. We have been royally shafted by th French and Germans. What ever came out of the talks was going to be bad for the uk.

[Verbal]

"euphoric glee" do me a favour.

 

See the thread title and the OP.

 

And the Daily Mail and its cherished readers.

 

And the opinion polls...

[dune]

Well i'm delighted. It's a step away from the EU and that is a wonderful thing.

 

We are Great britain, we'll do what we want.

[dune]

END OF EU IS UNSTOPPABLE

 

DAVID CAMERON faces “unstoppable” demands this week to “seize back control of Britain’s destiny” follow- ing his defiant stance against Brussels.

The Prime Minister, set for a hero’s welcome from Tory MPs at Westminster tomorrow, will be confronted on Tuesday with a motion calling for an EU referendum, tabled by DUP leader Nigel Dodds who last night said Britain stood on the cusp of a new and powerful position in Europe.

 

He said: “We’ve got an Opposition Day on Tuesday, so it was the ideal time to call for the referen- dum and draw up the motion.

 

“The UK still suffers terribly from the way things have evolved within the European Union and it is high time we grabbed back control and regained power over our destiny.”

 

Romford MP Andrew Rosindell, who was among the guests, said last night: “David Cameron has united his party.

“He stood up for British interests and showed the true bulldog spirit. He has proved he is willing to say no to Europe.”

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/289239/End-of-EU-is-unstoppable

 

 

This is brilliant.

Edited 11 December, 2011 by dune

[dune]

See the thread title and the OP.

 

And the Daily Mail and its cherished readers.

 

And the opinion polls...

 

The nerve eh Verbal of a British government doing what the British people want them to do.

 

That is totally against the what the Liberal Elite would do.

[Verbal]

The nerve eh Verbal of a British government doing what the British people want them to do.

 

That is totally against the what the Liberal Elite would do.

 

Oh, I've no doubt it seems a good thing to many right now. As I did actually say, I can understand all the whooping.

 

Unfortunately, as far as the City is concerned, Europe - and the French and Germans in particular - are thinking revenge is a dish best served cold.

 

Watch what happens when the City loses all that euro-denominated business, billions of it, and Cameron tries to play his trump card...the one he no longer has.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

What I find interesting is that the reaction from the City is mixed: Therefore the use of this veto cannot be simply swept under an umbrella term of 'the right thing to do'.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

The French were responsible for the Industrial revolution as our wars with them drove the necessity. This enabled the our finest days of Empire!

 

lolz.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

END OF EU IS UNSTOPPABLE

 

DAVID CAMERON faces “unstoppable” demands this week to “seize back control of Britain’s destiny” follow- ing his defiant stance against Brussels.

The Prime Minister, set for a hero’s welcome from Tory MPs at Westminster tomorrow, will be confronted on Tuesday with a motion calling for an EU referendum, tabled by DUP leader Nigel Dodds who last night said Britain stood on the cusp of a new and powerful position in Europe.

 

He said: “We’ve got an Opposition Day on Tuesday, so it was the ideal time to call for the referen- dum and draw up the motion.

 

“The UK still suffers terribly from the way things have evolved within the European Union and it is high time we grabbed back control and regained power over our destiny.”

 

Romford MP Andrew Rosindell, who was among the guests, said last night: “David Cameron has united his party.

“He stood up for British interests and showed the true bulldog spirit. He has proved he is willing to say no to Europe.”

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/289239/End-of-EU-is-unstoppable

 

 

This is brilliant.

 

What is it with this country that you can make certain people weak at the knees with the idea of 'Bulldog spirit'? British Bulldogs are the 'inbred mongs' of the canine world...hmmm, we could draw some comparisons.