Dave's Maggie Moment

[View From The Top]

let's face it Cameron had no choice, the UK economy couldn't survive the rule changes.

So right or wrong he followed the only path open to him.

The UK's entire economy is balanced on the City of London and the possibility of increasing M3(?) levels at will.Cameron,Brown,Clegg,Blair,Milliband or Winston Churchill the outcome would have been the same.You're in a "no can do" situation as far as clamping down on the city is concerned.

 

Exactly.

[Saintandy666]

26 other countries seemed to think it was alright! Either way, by being so aggressive in our tone, we've lost influence and are now isolated and we slide towards irrelevance. Even if that tone does appease Tory backbenchers, it isn't in the UK's interest to be isolated.

[hypochondriac]

let's face it Cameron had no choice, the UK economy couldn't survive the rule changes.

So right or wrong he followed the only path open to him.

The UK's entire economy is balanced on the City of London and the possibility of increasing M3(?) levels at will.Cameron,Brown,Clegg,Blair,Milliband or Winston Churchill the outcome would have been the same.You're in a "no can do" situation as far as clamping down on the city is concerned.

 

saintandy described him as 'weak weak weak.' If this was his only option then how was he weak?

[hypochondriac]

26 other countries seemed to think it was alright! Either way, by being so aggressive in our tone, we've lost influence and are now isolated and we slide towards irrelevance. Even if that tone does appease Tory backbenchers, it isn't in the UK's interest to be isolated.

 

What would you have done?

[CB Saint]

Heard portillo on five live this afternoon. His view was that the Tobin tax was placed by our European partners in the knowledge that we would veto it and appear to be the bad guys, whilst creating a smokescreen over the fact that the eurozone have done nothing to address the fundamental defects of the euro

 

An interesting take, I thought

[Saintandy666]

He's weak because he built no alliances and has ended up with us being a total irrelevance in Europe and so the world stage. We're nothing now. He didn't even try to get involved. Instead he just caved into his back benchers for a bit of short term popularity. We aren't a power anymore, the only way we can be is to become a regional power within Europe but Cameron doesn't want that.

[derry]

When the riots start in Athens and Rome and life gets impossible for ordinary people in other countries how long do you think this arrangement will continue. Eventually the Euro will collapse or be just a few of the northern countries. It's inevitable that there will be an in/out referendum at some point in the not too distant future. There is now a majority for getting out of the EU and sooner or later that pressure will prevail and the politicians will have to go along with it. In any event we need to look at the new powerhouse economies and get our trade more worldwide rather than the stagnant EU. It is high time that those people that haven't had a chance to make a decision are allowed to as nobody under 57 has been asked and many of those who endorsed a common market not an EU are dead. It is time for those that are saddled with the EU for the future to give their decision.

[solentstars]

26 other countries seemed to think it was alright! Either way, by being so aggressive in our tone, we've lost influence and are now isolated and we slide towards irrelevance. Even if that tone does appease Tory backbenchers, it isn't in the UK's interest to be isolated.

i think its a negotiating strategy and the games not over and i expect a compromise will happen at some point in time and has what has happened in the past.

[Saintandy666]

When the riots start in Athens and Rome and life gets impossible for ordinary people in other countries how long do you think this arrangement will continue. Eventually the Euro will collapse or be just a few of the northern countries. It's inevitable that there will be an in/out referendum at some point in the not too distant future. There is now a majority for getting out of the EU and sooner or later that pressure will prevail and the politicians will have to go along with it. In any event we need to look at the new powerhouse economies and get our trade more worldwide rather than the stagnant EU. It is high time that those people that haven't had a chance to make a decision are allowed to as nobody under 57 has been asked and many of those who endorsed a common market not an EU are dead. It is time for those that are saddled with the EU for the future to give their decision.

 

For sure, I think there should be a referendum at some point, once this crisis is over. No point being half in half out, we need to decide for sure where we stand. I'll passionately campaign for a yes vote, and hopefully we'll win. But I think it needs to happen by 2015. Or whenever this economic crisis ends.

[Saintandy666]

i think its a negotiating strategy and the games not over and i expect a compromise will happen at some point in time and has what has happened in the past.

 

I hope so. This current arrangement is just not that workable if Cameron really wants to stay in the EU which he does or at least he says he does.

[derry]

For sure, I think there should be a referendum at some point, once this crisis is over. No point being half in half out, we need to decide for sure where we stand. I'll passionately campaign for a yes vote, and hopefully we'll win. But I think it needs to happen by 2015. Or whenever this economic crisis ends.

 

Inevitably, in the end more than 50% will vote to leave.

[solentstars]

When the riots start in Athens and Rome and life gets impossible for ordinary people in other countries how long do you think this arrangement will continue. Eventually the Euro will collapse or be just a few of the northern countries. It's inevitable that there will be an in/out referendum at some point in the not too distant future. There is now a majority for getting out of the EU and sooner or later that pressure will prevail and the politicians will have to go along with it. In any event we need to look at the new powerhouse economies and get our trade more worldwide rather than the stagnant EU. It is high time that those people that haven't had a chance to make a decision are allowed to as nobody under 57 has been asked and many of those who endorsed a common market not an EU are dead. It is time for those that are saddled with the EU for the future to give their decision.

europe has not stopped the germans and french etc trading world wide with the powerhouse economys and it and has more to do with our own failures and lack of making goods to sell world wide.

[Saintandy666]

Inevitably, in the end more than 50% will vote to leave.

 

Probably, though I guess that depends on the campaigns. Yes to AV was ahead until the campaign and the the money got behind no to AV and the public changed their mind. We'll see. But at some point there should be a referendum now. I think Cameron's decision today(unless a future compromise is reached) makes that not only inevitable, but necessary.

[Saintandy666]

europe has not stopped the germans and french etc trading world wide with the powerhouse economys and it and has more to do with our own failures and lack of making goods to sell world wide.

 

Damn right, time we stopped blaming the EU for our own failures and owned up to and realised our errors and our decline.

[dune]

I was pleased to hear Vince Cable agreeing with Dave, were you young Andy?

[dune]

I'll passionately campaign for a yes vote.

 

I'm sure people will listen to you.

[saintbletch]

Cameron did well.

 

Ultimately what drove him, is not his back benchers, or even the City, but public opinion.

The British public (whether right or wrong on this) want nothing to do with European integration. Cameron above all else is still a politician and he knows he will be widely praised for this stance and that gives him strength.

 

Expect though to see lots from him now about how important the EU is too us. By drawing a eurosceptic line in the sand with the British public and his party, he creates the gravitas which allows him to pursue understated broadly pro EU efforts to ensure we remain influential.

The vast majority of our rulers and business leaders understand we need the EU more than they need us, but the reasons for that are so complex and genuinely difficult to present in an attractive way the British public understandably don't get it (often me too). It's a natural suspicion we the British have ingrained in our culture and derived from our history. I celebrate that Britishness, it's who we are, which is why I support DC's action.

 

Some say we should pursue the Norway or Switzerland option in relation to the EU, but those are very specialised economies far from the UK model which needs influence at EU level to maintain its advantages. Remove that influence and our economy will suffer.

 

The real question now is genuinely how much the rest of Europe is hacked off with us. If they accept, they also benefit from our membership (and they do to an extent) they may well be open to some diplomatic making up.

If they choose however they could spitefully push us to the margin and that will damage Britain make no mistake.

If I had to call it today, I suspect we will be ok as ultimately self interest rather than point scoring will be the strongest driver once the dust settles.

 

Today was a good day to be British, I just hope we don't pay too high a price for it.

 

I think you've identified the important issues in the argument here Brussels Saint.

 

But I'm not sure that I can quite reconcile your statements in bold.

 

You're sure today was a good day to be British for what reason? Is this a national pride thing? Because you go on to qualify that with the hope that we don't pay too high a price for it.

 

Would it still be a good day to be British if we end up paying too high a price for it?

 

The leaders of the 17+ will be meeting once per month moving forward to decide on priorities. That is a series of meetings ideally I'd like us influencing. This will not happen. And if those 17+ operate on a block vote in non-Euro zone matters, it could make things very difficult for us. Our key national interests are protected by veto but as you outline above, things could get pretty tough.

 

As I just heard a European reformer say "If you're not at the table, you're on the menu"

[eurosaint]

Damn right, time we stopped blaming the EU for our own failures and owned up to and realised our errors and our decline.

 

I presume that you are referring to 13 years of Labour misrule here ??

[solentstars]

I hope so. This current arrangement is just not that workable if Cameron really wants to stay in the EU which he does or at least he says he does.

cameron knows his party has a large rump of euro sceptics and so he has his own position to consider so he has to balance that and all prime ministers since 1970s have taken the national interest into account even thatcher a so called euro sceptic signed up to the single europeon act which was a massive transfer of sovereignty .

[badgerx16]

I was pleased to hear Vince Cable agreeing with Dave, were you young Andy?

 

A partly disgraced cabinet member, who only kept his seat as he's from the minority partner, hoping to get back in his boss's good books. Every member of the coalition front bench will say it's a good thing, because the alternative is for the facade of co-operation to crumble.

[saintbletch]

Heard portillo on five live this afternoon. His view was that the Tobin tax was placed by our European partners in the knowledge that we would veto it and appear to be the bad guys, whilst creating a smokescreen over the fact that the eurozone have done nothing to address the fundamental defects of the euro

 

An interesting take, I thought

 

The implication being that the Euro zone countries would claim that the Tobin tax wouldn't work unilaterally (in the Euro zone) if the UK opted out?

 

So it's win win.

 

Cameron says to the UK financial services sector "I protected you. I want your taxes paid in the UK please (as well as a seat on your board when I retire)"

 

The Euro zone leaders say "We tried to implement the Tobin tax but without those crazy Brits, it's not workable as all FS transactions would be conducted in the UK".

 

I wonder.

[Window Cleaner]

saintandy described him as 'weak weak weak.' If this was his only option then how was he weak?

 

How the f*ck should I know just how St Andy's mind works.

[View From The Top]

Whatever the outcome for domestic UK politics and the now inevitable in/out referendum the basic issue in that the German currency is seriously undervalued and the Greek/Spanish/Portuguese/Italian and Irish seriously overvalued still remains.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Damn right, time we stopped blaming the EU for our own failures and owned up to and realised our errors and our decline.

 

Rather patronising to us.

 

We were mistaken in not joining the Euro then Andy. Whose cock up was the Euro? Do you feel that the new Europe is a step foprward for democracy?

 

This treaty was put together in a hurry to patch up the Euro, which as a concept remains fundementally flawed and ultimately doomed. Is it wise to throw are hand in with countries that have been run like Portsmouth football club.

 

How do you think the people in markets around Europe will respond when they endure proper austerity measures essentially imposed by the Germans.

[hypochondriac]

I was pleased to hear Vince Cable agreeing with Dave, were you young Andy?

 

I think that those with experience, and those not trying to score a cheap political point knew that regardless of political party, this was the right thing to do.

[hypochondriac]

How the f*ck should I know just how St Andy's mind works.

 

Good point. The folly of youth

[solentstars]

Inevitably, in the end more than 50% will vote to leave.

who knows has someone who remembers the vote when it was a labour party who wanted us out and the conservatives were pro europe most people at the time wanted us out then but when the reality of what may happen and big business funding the yes campaign "suprise suprise we voted to stay in"people then thought was the effect on there jobs and the reality of what is at stake effected them.

[hypochondriac]

A partly disgraced cabinet member, who only kept his seat as he's from the minority partner, hoping to get back in his boss's good books. Every member of the coalition front bench will say it's a good thing, because the alternative is for the facade of co-operation to crumble.

 

Or e genuinely thought it was a good decision?

[derry]

Probably, though I guess that depends on the campaigns. Yes to AV was ahead until the campaign and the the money got behind no to AV and the public changed their mind. We'll see. But at some point there should be a referendum now. I think Cameron's decision today(unless a future compromise is reached) makes that not only inevitable, but necessary.

 

Like the AV referendum, doomed from the word go, it won't matter how the politicians and parties campaign, most people already know how they are going to vote. The political shenanigans over the denial of a referendum has stored up a great deal of bad feeling in the no vote and the politicians are going to get stuffed out of sight by the hacked off voters.

[Window Cleaner]

Good point. The folly of youth

 

Ah youth is he!! My mind didn't work at all at that age,well it did, like a welsh moutain railway, one tracked slow and dirty.

 

Fortunately there was no continous assessment at reputable universities in those days,hand in your project work and essays near enough on time and cramming up in the week before the exams still worked well.

[View From The Top]

If there is a referendum, and for the 1st time I actually believe there will be, the British public will vote to either A) Out B) Re-negotiate for trade only. There is no way on Gods green planet will they vote to remain in.

[Window Cleaner]

If there is a referendum, and for the 1st time I actually believe there will be, the British public will vote to either A) Out B) Re-negotiate for trade only. There is no way on Gods green planet will they vote to remain in.

 

Only to be expected,the average UK punter believes that his job has been stolen by a European,that all European football clubs

have armadas of paid refs at their disposal and last but not least that the British Isles are still the centre of the Universe.

[hypochondriac]

If there is a referendum, and for the 1st time I actually believe there will be, the British public will vote to either A) Out B) Re-negotiate for trade only. There is no way on Gods green planet will they vote to remain in.

 

My fear is that they will give the three options and that it will be worded deliberately to confuse, thus giving the pro euro lot a tiny edge.

[dune]

A partly disgraced cabinet member, who only kept his seat as he's from the minority partner, hoping to get back in his boss's good books. Every member of the coalition front bench will say it's a good thing, because the alternative is for the facade of co-operation to crumble.

 

And what would Millibean have done?

[derry]

who knows has someone who remembers the vote when it was a labour party who wanted us out and the conservatives were pro europe most people at the time wanted us out then but when the reality of what may happen and big business funding the yes campaign "suprise suprise we voted to stay in"people then thought was the effect on there jobs and the reality of what is at stake effected them.

 

I was conned into voting to stay in a single market not the political monolithic disaster that has evolved. It was no surprise at the time and it will be no surprise next time. Immigration, Fisheries, Transaction tax, Health and Safety, interference in Law and Order etc not to mention the German domination will see to that.

[hypochondriac]

Only to be expected,the average UK punter believes that his job has been stolen by a European,that all European football clubs

have armadas of paid refs at their disposal and last but not least that the British Isles are still the centre of the Universe.

 

And so the ONLY reason that anyone would vote to leave would be because of what you said above? Isn't that a bit insulting to those who actually have a modicum of intelligence yet still believe that leaving is best for us?

[hypochondriac]

I was conned into voting to stay in a single market not the political monolithic disaster that has evolved. It was no surprise at the time and it will be no surprise next time. Immigration, Fisheries, Transaction tax, Health and Safety, interference in Law and Order etc not to mention the German domination will see to that.

 

Not to mention the working time directive.

[dune]

My fear is that they will give the three options and that it will be worded deliberately to confuse, thus giving the pro euro lot a tiny edge.

 

Confusion won't be an issue even if they try. It's all that will be on the news every day for weeks on end. Even the great unwashed will hear about it (not that they'll bother to vote).

[trousers]

A partly disgraced cabinet member, who only kept his seat as he's from the minority partner, hoping to get back in his boss's good books. Every member of the coalition front bench will say it's a good thing, because the alternative is for the facade of co-operation to crumble.

 

Ming Campbell normally says what he thinks rather than toe the coalition line and he was also supportive of cameron's decision.

[Window Cleaner]

And so the ONLY reason that anyone would vote to leave would be because of what you said above? Isn't that a bit insulting to those who actually have a modicum of intelligence yet still believe that leaving is best for us?

 

what the hell has the "average UK punter" got to do with someone with a modicum of intelligence?You only need to look at the "average UK punter" from the outside to know that he/she is pretty moronic with no intelligence whatsoever.Obviously it's only 40% ish of the population but they're the ones who shout loudest and read the Sun.

[View From The Top]

Only to be expected,the average UK punter believes that his job has been stolen by a European,that all European football clubs

have armadas of paid refs at their disposal and last but not least that the British Isles are still the centre of the Universe.

 

True, but plenty really of well educated folk don't want to be part of "Europe" and they come from the left, right and centre.

 

Trade yes, political integration, no. I would suggest that that is the majority view.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

True, but plenty really of well educated folk don't want to be part of "Europe" and they come from the left, right and centre.

 

Trade yes, political integration, no. I would suggest that that is the majority view.

 

We would all vote for a trade agreement but the problem comes when we use the flexibility to become more competitive. The EU will never accept that.

[dune]

Trade yes, political integration, no. I would suggest that that is the majority view.

 

It is the democratic view.

[Saintandy666]

I'm just saying it's about time we realised we aren't a world power any more and the only way we can have influence is as a regional power to influence a larger group. It's a 50 year process and we just have to accept that. Only countries like the US and China can do their own thing and get away with it because they have the financial muscle.

[scotty]

Ming Campbell normally says what he thinks rather than toe the coalition line and he was also supportive of cameron's decision.

 

 

Yes, I noticed that as well. Was an interesting listen. Also, David Owen's comments on Today were spot-on.

 

I'm not so sure about this UK referendum happening; what exactly would it be supposed to achieve? We've already as good as said we wont be joining the euro, and all this nonsense about having a say at the centre of europe......well, it makes no difference whether or not we're one voice in 27, does it? We all know that when the big decisions are taken it will be germany that decides them. Cameron did the right thing last night, and is now a convenient scapegoat for the french and germans for when the euro goes down the pan. They have already tacitly accepted that its a dead duck the second they started referring to greece leaving it, that prospect had never been countenanced previously ("there is no exit mechanism......") So what are they going to do? Stop trading with us? The country they refer to as "treasure island"? They make far more out of us than we make out of them, and just take a look at the table of net contributors to the EU budget, we're up there in 3rd or 4th (or were last time I looked.) Going to kick us out from spite? I think not.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I'm just saying it's about time we realised we aren't a world power any more and the only way we can have influence is as a regional power to influence a larger group. It's a 50 year process and we just have to accept that. Only countries like the US and China can do their own thing and get away with it because they have the financial muscle.

 

Why are you so obsessed with running us down. It is not about being a world power it is about what is best for our economic prosperity.

[Saintandy666]

Why are you so obsessed with running us down. It is not about being a world power it is about what is best for our economic prosperity.

 

I know it's not about being a world power. I'm not obsessed with being such, just a lot of people still seem to have the attitude of the 19th century when we were a world power. We have to learn we can no longer do it alone, and is where what is best for our economic prosperity comes in.

[solentstars]

Only to be expected,the average UK punter believes that his job has been stolen by a European,that all European football clubs

have armadas of paid refs at their disposal and last but not least that the British Isles are still the centre of the Universe.

ha ha i expect its true and by this time next week something else wiill be on peoples minds to moan about apart from the most committed for and against europe or the euro i expect the vast majority have more important things going on with their lives and has someone from the 1970s since we joined i seen my lifestyle improve fantastically from those days before we were outside and we have never had it so good in this country.it seems people forget we are the 6 th richest country in the world.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

We signed up 40 years ago to join a Common Market with the explicit intention of advancing our trading relations with our continental neighbours. We have ended up somehow in a European Union that I feel a large proportion of the British people have never really wanted and would not vote for given the opportunity.

Far from being alarmed at the prospect of the UK's political isolation from what is obviously a rapidly solidifying European Superstate, I'm actualy quite content for us to maintain our independence. I certainly did not vote for David Cameron and his party, but what he did early this morning made be proud he is our Prime Minister.

 

And before you jump to any erroneous conclusions, I can assure you reader with the utmost sincerity, that I'm very far from the right wing, Daily Mail reading, stereotype you may assume. I see the world around us primarily from the perspective of the historian, from that point of view I can't help but be immersed in this great nation state's long and truly remarkable history. Despite all its many triumphs and tragedies, I still see our Union of the British Isles as a political entity that has been in the past, and can be again in the future, a force for good in the world.

 

As I see it, the prospect of that long distinctly British story reaching such a dismal conclusion as our submergence in this bastardised Franco-German dominated power bloc would be a matter of profound and everlasting regret.

[solentstars]

Yes, I noticed that as well. Was an interesting listen. Also, David Owen's comments on Today were spot-on.

 

I'm not so sure about this UK referendum happening; what exactly would it be supposed to achieve? We've already as good as said we wont be joining the euro, and all this nonsense about having a say at the centre of europe......well, it makes no difference whether or not we're one voice in 27, does it? We all know that when the big decisions are taken it will be germany that decides them. Cameron did the right thing last night, and is now a convenient scapegoat for the french and germans for when the euro goes down the pan. They have already tacitly accepted that its a dead duck the second they started referring to greece leaving it, that prospect had never been countenanced previously ("there is no exit mechanism......") So what are they going to do? Stop trading with us? The country they refer to as "treasure island"? They make far more out of us than we make out of them, and just take a look at the table of net contributors to the EU budget, we're up there in 3rd or 4th (or were last time I looked.) Going to kick us out from spite? I think not.

good post and if we want more say we need to outdo the germans and becoming a economic powerhouse and not rely just on financial services and start making things again and export around the world and invest and have long term planning.