Dave's Maggie Moment

[hypochondriac]

The majority of the British watch X-Factor, I'm a Celebrity and Strictly Come Dancing not really a hot bed of sound opinion.

 

And so by implication, the minority of British people who think this is a bad idea (you know the ones, the people who supported the euro) are actually the intelligent sensible people?

[Lord Duckhunter]

BBC Newsfeed 1346: An editorial in the French newspaper, Le Monde, is not surprised by Britain's position: "Let's be fair. The British have nothing to do with the euro crisis. They are not responsible for the inability of the eurozone leaders to resolve their sovereign debt problems. It makes sense that the British resist a move towards greater economic and budgetary integration. They don't believe in it. They do not believe in the idea of the European Union. Britain, which joined the then European Economic Community in 1973, is interested just in one thing: the single market. They [the British] are indifferent about the rest of the European project, when they are not hostile to it."

 

 

Spot on.

 

The best way to sum up what's going is “The euro is the disease, not the patient.”, wise words from Roger Helmer MEP.

 

The Euro is just not credible without a bona fide federal Europe. I'm sure deep down the Euro nutters who support the EU know this. The Euro is just a stepping stone towards that goal. They'll grab more power this time, and when the crisis blows up again, they'll grab a little bit more. Every single thing Europe has done in the past 40 years has been about creeping towards that goal, but without frightening the horses into a referendum.

[hypochondriac]

Spot on.

 

The best way to sum up what's going is “The euro is the disease, not the patient.”, wise words from Roger Helmer MEP.

 

The Euro is just not credible without a bona fide federal Europe. I'm sure deep down the Euro nutters who support the EU know this. The Euro is just a stepping stone towards that goal. They'll grab more power this time, and when the crisis blows up again, they'll grab a little bit more. Every single thing Europe has done in the past 40 years has been about creeping towards that goal, but without frightening the horses into a referendum.

 

Exactly! Someone gets it. Treaties get voted down so they have another vote till it gets accepted. Constitutions are thrown out so they call it an amendment and pass it through anyway. It's not democratic at all, it stinks and is why we are better off out.

[trousers]

The majority of the British watch X-Factor, I'm a Celebrity and Strictly Come Dancing not really a hot bed of sound opinion.

 

I'd hardly call c.10m viewers (per programme), of which a significant portion will be way under voting age, a resounding statistic to benchmark the views of the nation as a whole...

[swannymere]

And so by implication, the minority of British people who think this is a bad idea (you know the ones, the people who supported the euro) are actually the intelligent sensible people?

 

Now you're putting words in my mouth, i was trying to add balance and because you did'nt agree you jumped down my throat, time of the month?

 

I'd hardly call c.10m viewers (per programme), of which a significant portion will be way under voting age, a resounding statistic to benchmark the views of the nation as a whole...

 

Remind me how many voted the in the last General Election?

 

I've reached my 3 posts for the day so Ciao for now.

[Wade Garrett]

Exactly! Someone gets it. Treaties get voted down so they have another vote till it gets accepted. Constitutions are thrown out so they call it an amendment and pass it through anyway. It's not democratic at all, it stinks and is why we are better off out.

 

I get it!

 

I just don't compare it to the Nazi's attempt to take over the world with their brand of facism in 1939.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The X-Factor is actually more democratic than The EU. You get a vote, and even if it's the "wrong" vote, you dont get told to vote again until you get it right.

[Saintandy666]

Oh shush, just because I am a bit left wing, doesn't mean I don't love living in this country.

[trousers]

Remind me how many voted the in the last General Election?

 

More than voted (as a percentage) in the public sector strikes last month?

 

Edit: the less facetious answer is 29,687,604.

Edited 9 December, 2011 by trousers

[Whitey Grandad]

Exactly. This has been the plan from the start. I refuse to let what my ancestors fought for be in vain. We stood alone during two world wars and we knew what was right then and we know what is right now.

 

That is sooooo last century. I'm surprised you don't also hate the romans for invading in 43, or the vikings after 700. Or the saxons in the 5th century. I bet you're actually part saxon - go on, admit you're actually german! And where would we have been without Blücher at Waterloo?

[Lord Duckhunter]

To be in the EU, or to be out of the EU........There's only one way to find out.....................FIGHT..............Sory I mean referendum.

[hypochondriac]

That is sooooo last century. I'm surprised you don't also hate the romans for invading in 43, or the vikings after 700. Or the saxons in the 5th century. I bet you're actually part saxon - go on, admit you're actually german! And where would we have been without Blücher at Waterloo?

 

I don't hate the Germans, I just think it is dangerous to give one country command over so many others, regardless of who that country is.

[hypochondriac]

Oh shush, just because I am a bit left wing, doesn't mean I don't love living in this country.

 

A bit???

[hypochondriac]

I get it!

 

I just don't compare it to the Nazi's attempt to take over the world with their brand of facism in 1939.

 

Neither did I, simply that if a similar situation occured in the long term future, the setup that France and Germany wants would be a dangerous one.

[hypochondriac]

Now you're putting words in my mouth, i was trying to add balance and because you did'nt agree you jumped down my throat, time of the month?

 

I never jumped down your throat. If that wasn't what you implied then I don't see the point you are trying to make.

 

Remind me how many voted the in the last General Election?

 

I've reached my 3 posts for the day so Ciao for now.

 

Ah you cannot reply. Hopefully you will tomorrow.

[trousers]

Martin O'Rourke in Roquebrun, France emails: The creation of the euro was a political move to calm French fears about a re-united Germany. Little thought was given to the financial and economic consequences. We now have an economic/financial fix to suit the Franco/German interest. It is essentially undemocratic, almost Napoleonic, in its disregard for the rights of individual nations.

[Saintandy666]

The only way for the UK to be a power is at the centre of Europe. Today marks another step on the road towards irrelevance.

[hypochondriac]

The only way for the UK to be a power is at the centre of Europe. Today marks another step on the road towards irrelevance.

 

Absolute rubbish. Today marks the first step to reclaiming some of our lost independence. Time for Britain to prove that like other countries we able to survive without the restrictions imposed upon us by Eurorpe. Many cleverer, older and wiser people than yourself have stated this is the right decision. Very few from the UK have said it was the wrong thing to do except the Labour party for obvious reasons. Even the person you voted for believed this was the right thing!

 

'trade with Europe but not run by Europe' was what we signed up to and that is how it should stay.

[dune]

I would like to meet his parents. I wonder what they must be like to raise such a son. I bet they hate Britain.

 

It's not appropriate to bring that into a discussion.

[Saintandy666]

If we want to trade with the EU on the same terms, we will have to follow most of the rules of the EU. If we are excluded, what happens is we lose our influence over those rules. We are not a powerful country anymore. At the centre of Europe we could be, just like Germany and France.

[trousers]

The only way for the UK to be a power is at the centre of Europe. Today marks another step on the road towards irrelevance.

 

BBC Newsfeed: Sir Menzies Campbell, former leader of Mr Cameron's coalition government partners the Liberal Democrats, backs the British prime minister. He says the course of action taken by Mr Cameron would not have been necessary if other European leaders had been "more accommodating".

[Saintandy666]

It's not appropriate to bring that into a discussion.

 

Thanks for the back up duney

[hypochondriac]

It's not appropriate to bring that into a discussion.

 

It would explain a lot about the mentality that I cannot comprehend. If it were down to his parents, then it would be interesting especially if the cause of that thinking was found to exist in other families.

[dune]

Thanks for the back up duney

 

I do have some standards even if you are an obnoxious teenager.

[hypochondriac]

The only way for the UK to be a power is at the centre of Europe. Today marks another step on the road towards irrelevance.

 

Out of interest, what would you have done? Signed up and lost our financial sectors?

[Verbal]

It would explain a lot about the mentality that I cannot comprehend. If it were down to his parents, then it would be interesting especially if the cause of that thinking was found to exist in other families.

 

Why don't you stop the juvenile insults about parenting?

[View From The Top]

To be in the EU, or to be out of the EU........There's only one way to find out.....................FIGHT..............Sory I mean referendum.

 

I actually feel that is a more realistic proposition now. The Tory right will be smelling blood in the water and start pushing for it sooner rather than later and as soon as "Europe" does something that really pi sses us off it will go up a ratchet.

 

It will split the government and a general election will be fought based on in/out. All, of course, IMHO.

 

As for Hypos comments, what a clueless cock.

[hypochondriac]

I do have some standards even if you are an obnoxious teenager.

 

All I said is that it would be interesting to see what his parents are like to see if that is where he got his remarkable opinions from. Nothing controversial about that.

[View From The Top]

If we want to trade with the EU on the same terms, we will have to follow most of the rules of the EU. If we are excluded, what happens is we lose our influence over those rules. We are not a powerful country anymore. At the centre of Europe we could be, just like Germany and France.

 

I'm afraid that even people like myself, who are left of centre and quite like Europeans, don't like or want the EU and look at how Norway and Switzerland trade and think, "that'll do us".

[View From The Top]

I do have some standards even if you are an obnoxious teenager.

 

Why is having a view about politics and economics as a teenager obnoxious? It's a pity more didn't and no one can dispute that the lad is always polite in his posts despite you and Rich always ripping it out of him.

 

Credit to the lad.

[hypochondriac]

Why is having a view about politics and economics as a teenager obnoxious? It's a pity more didn't and no one can dispute that the lad is always polite in his posts despite you and Rich always ripping it out of him.

 

Credit to the lad.

 

I don't think that is what dune thinks makes him obnoxious, but I don't want to put words in his mouth.

[dune]

All I said is that it would be interesting to see what his parents are like to see if that is where he got his remarkable opinions from. Nothing controversial about that.

 

I don't like people bringing peoples families into forum debates.

[dune]

Why is having a view about politics and economics as a teenager obnoxious? It's a pity more didn't and no one can dispute that the lad is always polite in his posts despite you and Rich always ripping it out of him.

 

Credit to the lad.

 

It is character building. Just look at Super Mikey. He has improved through his forum counselling.

[Dimond Geezer]

Getting away from whether Call-Me-Dave is a hero or a c()ck, and whether he has done the right thing economically (and unlike just about everyone else on this forum I've no idea if he has or hasn't), the one thing that stands out to me, is that Call-me-Dave has got rid of our aircraft carriers, and we won't have a servicable one for 10 years or so. We are supposed to be sharing one with those nice people from France, you know the ones we have royally p!ssed off. What would happen if the Chinese/Iranians, whoever, invaded/went to war, the Argies took another look at the Falklands etc. I can't see the Frenchies helping us out now, the yanks are to far away to care, and we barely register on their radar anyway. We've been left extremely vulnerable, both politically & militarily.

[hypochondriac]

I don't like people bringing peoples families into forum debates.

 

I didn't. I apologise for saying I bet they hate Britain. I still think it would be interesting to see them though, I dot thin it's insulting to say that. Anyway let's move on it was a throwaway comment.

[trousers]

Getting away from whether Call-Me-Dave is a hero or a c()ck, and whether he has done the right thing economically (and unlike just about everyone else on this forum I've no idea if he has or hasn't), the one thing that stands out to me, is that Call-me-Dave has got rid of our aircraft carriers, and we won't have a servicable one for 10 years or so. We are supposed to be sharing one with those nice people from France, you know the ones we have royally p!ssed off. What would happen if the Chinese/Iranians, whoever, invaded/went to war, the Argies took another look at the Falklands etc. I can't see the Frenchies helping us out now, the yanks are to far away to care, and we barely register on their radar anyway. We've been left extremely vulnerable, both politically & militarily.

 

One would hope the aircraft carrier agreement we signed with France wasn't reliant on greater fiscal union between the Eurozone members.

 

We weren't part of the Eurozone when we entered into the aircraft carrier agreement, and as of today, we're in the very same position.

 

Surely the French are above throwing their toys out of the pram and reneging on a completely separate and binding agreement?

 

p.s. you can say "cock" without having to mask any of the letters :-)

[View From The Top]

It is character building. Just look at Super Mikey. He has improved through his forum counselling.

 

Tedious for the rest of us though mush.

[dune]

I didn't. I apologise for saying I bet they hate Britain. I still think it would be interesting to see them though, I dot thin it's insulting to say that. Anyway let's move on it was a throwaway comment.

 

Why would it be interesting? Would it be interesting to have a debate about how interesting it would be to see your parents?

[Window Cleaner]

Martin O'Rourke in Roquebrun, France emails: The creation of the euro was a political move to calm French fears about a re-united Germany. Little thought was given to the financial and economic consequences. We now have an economic/financial fix to suit the Franco/German interest. It is essentially undemocratic, almost Napoleonic, in its disregard for the rights of individual nations.

 

Bloke keeps some sort of hotel north of Montpellier, he could always go back to Torquay if he doesn't like the way the country he lives in is run.

[scotty]

Still clinging on to the 'Empire'? Dune et al make me laugh, we just shafted our biggest trading partner so our glorious leader could kiss the arse of the euro sceptics in his own party. This will be a very short term gain in the whole scheme of things and will just hasten the inevitable decline in our importance and influence on the world stage. Iceberg ahoy, don't worry this island is unsinkable.....

 

Would you rather that Blair had got his way and bounced us into the fiasco that is the euro, just so he could kiss the arses of Sarkozy, Berlusconi and Merkel? At least the eurosceptics in the British tory party are British MP's, elected by the British public. They do actually represent somebody in Britain.

[Window Cleaner]

Getting away from whether Call-Me-Dave is a hero or a c()ck, and whether he has done the right thing economically (and unlike just about everyone else on this forum I've no idea if he has or hasn't), the one thing that stands out to me, is that Call-me-Dave has got rid of our aircraft carriers, and we won't have a servicable one for 10 years or so. We are supposed to be sharing one with those nice people from France, you know the ones we have royally p!ssed off. What would happen if the Chinese/Iranians, whoever, invaded/went to war, the Argies took another look at the Falklands etc. I can't see the Frenchies helping us out now, the yanks are to far away to care, and we barely register on their radar anyway. We've been left extremely vulnerable, both politically & militarily.

 

Nothing to do with the case. As far as I can see this is about the UK controlling the city wide boys or not and not printing money willy nilly. Europe is trying to impose fiscal prudence, the UK just wants to carry on printing any quantity of money it likes and thus never having a sovereign debt issue.

Edited 9 December, 2011 by Window Cleaner

[Brussels Saint]

Cameron did well.

 

Ultimately what drove him, is not his back benchers, or even the City, but public opinion.

The British public (whether right or wrong on this) want nothing to do with European integration. Cameron above all else is still a politician and he knows he will be widely praised for this stance and that gives him strength.

 

Expect though to see lots from him now about how important the EU is too us. By drawing a eurosceptic line in the sand with the British public and his party, he creates the gravitas which allows him to pursue understated broadly pro EU efforts to ensure we remain influential.

The vast majority of our rulers and business leaders understand we need the EU more than they need us, but the reasons for that are so complex and genuinely difficult to present in an attractive way the British public understandably don't get it (often me too). It's a natural suspicion we the British have ingrained in our culture and derived from our history. I celebrate that Britishness, it's who we are, which is why I support DC's action.

 

Some say we should pursue the Norway or Switzerland option in relation to the EU, but those are very specialised economies far from the UK model which needs influence at EU level to maintain its advantages. Remove that influence and our economy will suffer.

 

The real question now is genuinely how much the rest of Europe is hacked off with us. If they accept, they also benefit from our membership (and they do to an extent) they may well be open to some diplomatic making up.

If they choose however they could spitefully push us to the margin and that will damage Britain make no mistake.

If I had to call it today, I suspect we will be ok as ultimately self interest rather than point scoring will be the strongest driver once the dust settles.

 

Today was a good day to be British, I just hope we don't pay too high a price for it.

[CB Saint]

There is a lot of people coming out and saying that we have done the wrong thing.

 

What I don't see is any solutions or commitments to what should have happened. The Labour hierachy are making generalised statements about showing weakness or mishandling negociations. What they don't say is what they would have done.

[Saintandy666]

I regularly disagree withy Dad and my mum isn't so opinionated so I'm not copying my parents. And it's not a rebel thing either because I agree on some things, disagree on others, but life goes on.

[solentstars]

Cameron did well.

 

Ultimately what drove him, is not his back benchers, or even the City, but public opinion.

The British public (whether right or wrong on this) want nothing to do with European integration. Cameron above all else is still a politician and he knows he will be widely praised for this stance and that gives him strength.

 

Expect though to see lots from him now about how important the EU is too us. By drawing a eurosceptic line in the sand with the British public and his party, he creates the gravitas which allows him to pursue understated broadly pro EU efforts to ensure we remain influential.

The vast majority of our rulers and business leaders understand we need the EU more than they need us, but the reasons for that are so complex and genuinely difficult to present in an attractive way the British public understandably don't get it (often me too). It's a natural suspicion we the British have ingrained in our culture and derived from our history. I celebrate that Britishness, it's who we are, which is why I support DC's action.

 

Some say we should pursue the Norway or Switzerland option in relation to the EU, but those are very specialised economies far from the UK model which needs influence at EU level to maintain its advantages. Remove that influence and our economy will suffer.

 

The real question now is genuinely how much the rest of Europe is hacked off with us. If they accept, they also benefit from our membership (and they do to an extent) they may well be open to some diplomatic making up.

If they choose however they could spitefully push us to the margin and that will damage Britain make no mistake.

If I had to call it today, I suspect we will be ok as ultimately self interest rather than point scoring will be the strongest driver once the dust settles.

 

Today was a good day to be British, I just hope we don't pay too high a price for it.

good post as one commenter said today even gorden brown would behaved the same has cameron just like all our prime ministers have looked after the national interest despite the nutty right dads army of the conservative party who despise cameron for his common sense and liberal views and will try to foist there weird agenda on him.

[eurosaint]

There is a lot of people coming out and saying that we have done the wrong thing.

 

What I don't see is any solutions or commitments to what should have happened. The Labour hierachy are making generalised statements about showing weakness or mishandling negociations. What they don't say is what they would have done.

 

Be happy that Ed Milliband was not representing the UK today !

Be very, very happy !!!!

[Dimond Geezer]

One would hope the aircraft carrier agreement we signed with France wasn't reliant on greater fiscal union between the Eurozone members.

 

We weren't part of the Eurozone when we entered into the aircraft carrier agreement, and as of today, we're in the very same position.

 

Surely the French are above throwing their toys out of the pram and reneging on a completely separate and binding agreement?

 

p.s. you can say "cock" without having to mask any of the letters :-)

 

I think the pertinant phrase is "One would hope", but I'm not so sure they're above a gallic shrug should the going get tough.

 

Cock - oh yeah you're right.

[solentstars]

I actually feel that is a more realistic proposition now. The Tory right will be smelling blood in the water and start pushing for it sooner rather than later and as soon as "Europe" does something that really pi sses us off it will go up a ratchet.

 

It will split the government and a general election will be fought based on in/out. All, of course, IMHO.

 

As for Hypos comments, what a clueless cock.

i think its more likely the euro lunatics of the tory right will split the tory party has they have never been team players which will lead to a labour party back in power thats why cameron has the liberal democrats has partners to stop the euro nutters wing of his party trying to dictate policy.of course there is some moderate type euro scepticsin in the tory party but the bill cashs and nadine norriss of this world are just barking mad.

[hypochondriac]

I regularly disagree withy Dad and my mum isn't so opinionated so I'm not copying my parents. And it's not a rebel thing either because I agree on some things, disagree on others, but life goes on.

 

Socwhat would you have done differently to Cameron today?

[Window Cleaner]

Socwhat would you have done differently to Cameron today?

 

let's face it Cameron had no choice, the UK economy couldn't survive the rule changes.

So right or wrong he followed the only path open to him.

The UK's entire economy is balanced on the City of London and the possibility of increasing M3(?) levels at will.Cameron,Brown,Clegg,Blair,Milliband or Winston Churchill the outcome would have been the same.You're in a "no can do" situation as far as clamping down on the city is concerned.

Edited 9 December, 2011 by Window Cleaner