View From The Top Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 It was the only outcome there could be as a referendum is considered to divisive by the ruling classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 sarkozy and Merkal were having a go at the irish yesterday about their low corporation taxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I just don't see the need to bash Cameron when he has done the right thing. Slate politicians when they do bad and praise when they do good is my motto. But there is no "right thing" in this incredibly interwoven set of vested interests. A tax on bank transactions might be the right thing if it were global in nature but it isn't so the right thing is not on the table. A more tightly-bound European Union that harmonises its members' fiscal policies in addition to it's unit of currency might be the "right thing" but again that isn't on the table and Cameron couldn't hope to deliver that. The right thing might be staying very close to the heart of Europe so that the UK can capitalise on trade opportunities that present themselves in the 'recovery' but that comes with too many strings attached for Cameron to sell to the public, his party and his financial services sector. So the right thing isn't important here. What's important is the lowest common denominator compromise that Cameron can get away with. And again, anyone that thinks our veto or some historic opt-out sub-clause that was negotiated in a late night jingoistic ****ing contest is going to protect us, think on this. If, on one side of the scale of European justice is existing European law that protects treaty members, and on the other is the potential failure of the Euro and the associated financial Armageddon, I think the 17 will simply say to the UK "if you don't like it, sue us". That's what David Cameron has 'delivered'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 But there is no "right thing" in this incredibly interwoven set of vested interests. A tax on bank transactions might be the right thing if it were global in nature but it isn't so the right thing is not on the table. A more tightly-bound European Union that harmonises its members' fiscal policies in addition to it's unit of currency might be the "right thing" but again that isn't on the table and Cameron couldn't hope to deliver that. The right thing might be staying very close to the heart of Europe so that the UK can capitalise on trade opportunities that present themselves in the 'recovery' but that comes with too many strings attached for Cameron to sell to the public, his party and his financial services sector. So the right thing isn't important here. What's important is the lowest common denominator compromise that Cameron can get away with. And again, anyone that thinks our veto or some historic opt-out sub-clause that was negotiated in a late night jingoistic ****ing contest is going to protect us, think on this. If, on one side of the scale of European justice is existing European law that protects treaty members, and on the other is the potential failure of the Euro and the associated financial Armageddon, I think the 17 will simply say to the UK "if you don't like it, sue us". That's what David Cameron has 'delivered'. Cameron played the only card he could. He can't sign up to a full treaty change without attracting massive criticism from his own ranks and the financial services sector. He can't dismiss Europe entirely, as neither big business nor his coalition partners would be on-board. He has done the only thing he is brave enough to do, and deserves about as much praise as someone who makes the decision to jump out of the way of oncoming traffic. On a related note, do we need to reconsider the defence deal we made with the French? Haven't seen Anglo-French relations this frosty for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I'm not a fool, but neither am I blinkered. You cannot be a member of a club, and then stand in the doorway trying to destabilise it at every opportunity. Our economy is so tightly bound into trading with Europe that we have to be able to influence what happens with the Euro - as far as the rest of the world is concerned we are 'in' and we will be treated accordingly, regardless of how isolationist we pretend to be. The ONLY solution to this issue is a referendum, but nobody in Westminster is willing to risk this - the Tories for fear of a 'yes' vote, and the LDs and Labour for fear of a 'no'. The only funny thing about the current situation is remembering Alex Salmond's comments on an independent Scotland being able to operate "like Ireland or Iceland, on the edge of the EU". He also said that the first thing an independent Scotland would do economically would be to ditch the pound and adopt the euro. I bet the scots are relieved that didnt happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Nigel Farage MEP: It might be appealing to think that David Cameron has scored a great victory but we have not protected the City of London as we were promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Nigel Farage MEP: EU leaders' lunch cancelled: Cameron's less popular than me at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 BBC Newsfeed 1049:Eurozone crisis: "Britain could end up as one country outside a club of 26," Economist columnist David Rennie tells World Update. "I think that's a catastrophe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Looks like Cameron has given the rest of the world a figure to pin the blame on if the Euro collapses. Mind you I don't think he had much choice - and IMO made the right decision. But he has left himself, and ourselves open to having the blame laid to rest at our door - "if only those arrogant British hadn't scuppered our best chances of saving the Euro..." etc. A few weeks back Merkel had the choice of pulling out of the Euro, or backing it to the hilt - she has publically thrown her weight behind it [Although, I've heard rumour that the printing presses in the Deutshe mint are ranking up piles with DM printed on them as a secret contingency plan]. So while Cameron has done the right thing, and Britain has done the right thing by not getting involved in a currency which was doomed to failure (without a full fiscal union), I'm not sure that we will manage to escape the blame. We are now the black sheep, ostracized and isolated. We have to hope that the blame is directed at the crazy overspending in the Med, but I'm a bit worried that China, and the US (and most of Europe) will see a currency that could have been saved, having it's best chances of avoiding collapse scuppered by the self interest of the declining power in the corner. Still, I don't see that Cameron had any other option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 But there is no "right thing" in this incredibly interwoven set of vested interests. A tax on bank transactions might be the right thing if it were global in nature but it isn't so the right thing is not on the table. A more tightly-bound European Union that harmonises its members' fiscal policies in addition to it's unit of currency might be the "right thing" but again that isn't on the table and Cameron couldn't hope to deliver that. The right thing might be staying very close to the heart of Europe so that the UK can capitalise on trade opportunities that present themselves in the 'recovery' but that comes with too many strings attached for Cameron to sell to the public, his party and his financial services sector. So the right thing isn't important here. What's important is the lowest common denominator compromise that Cameron can get away with. And again, anyone that thinks our veto or some historic opt-out sub-clause that was negotiated in a late night jingoistic ****ing contest is going to protect us, think on this. If, on one side of the scale of European justice is existing European law that protects treaty members, and on the other is the potential failure of the Euro and the associated financial Armageddon, I think the 17 will simply say to the UK "if you don't like it, sue us". That's what David Cameron has 'delivered'. There were two choices that Cameron had to make last night. He chose the right one an therefore did the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 sarkozy and Merkal were having a go at the irish yesterday about their low corporation taxx What happened about that? The Irish were dead set on not losing their low corporation tax. What does this new treaty say about corporation tax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I'm going to answer my own question. 'Ms Creighton (Irish Minister) said there had been no discussion about corporation tax, the rate of which the Government has pledged to defend, and that the subject “wasn’t an issue on the agenda at all”.' Sounds like they were too busy discussing Britain's opt-outs. I bet it won't be long before they (Merkel & Sarkozy) start putting pressure on Ireland to toe the line on Corporation Tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I'd love to be that room and just say; "F*ck off you mugs, we are Great Britain and we'll do what we want" Ditto this comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 BBC News: Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, which campaigns for the UK's exit from the EU, said Mr Cameron could have obtained concessions by threatening to hold a referendum on Britain's EU membership. "It's quite untenable for us to remain in a union alone, on the outside, having laws made for us, [while we're] in a permanent voting minority. "This is the worst of all worlds for the UK." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I think we should just exit the EU, at the moment we are getting the worst of both worlds. We should either go in properly or cut and run and at this time having full control of our borders and finances has to be preferable, leave the rest of Europe to pay for the Greeks etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I think we should just exit the EU, at the moment we are getting the worst of both worlds. I think that idea would be generally well received in Continental Europe at the moment. Most seem just want to get rid of the UK and it's money grabbers.Some are even saying you've been set up and have fallen into the trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swannymere Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Still clinging on to the 'Empire'? Dune et al make me laugh, we just shafted our biggest trading partner so our glorious leader could kiss the arse of the euro sceptics in his own party. This will be a very short term gain in the whole scheme of things and will just hasten the inevitable decline in our importance and influence on the world stage. Iceberg ahoy, don't worry this island is unsinkable..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 So we've reclaimed nothing, pi ssed off everyone else and are still not asking the general public as to whether we are in or out. I truly believe that the subject of Europe is going to rip the government apart in the months to come at that the PM was painted into a corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I bet Dune is all in a quandry now after he proclaimed it a great move by Cameron, only for the leader of the party he now votes for coming out and saying Dave ballsed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I think we should give up all our rights to self rule with immediate effect. we should disband the westminister and scottish parliments and just be ruled by the germans and french , We should convert to the euro. with effect from 1st January Suits me. Everywhere I go I see thing are run better than they are here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I'm sure that's not what brought Lehman's down, and nearly crashed Goldman Sachs. Some of the financial models were so complicated that nobody really knew how they operated, and they had no idea as to the true content and worth of the 'junk' they exchanged, nor even who ultimately 'owned' responsibility for it. Irresponsible lending or irresponsible borrowing, who you blame depends on your perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I think that idea would be generally well received in Continental Europe at the moment. Most seem just want to get rid of the UK and it's money grabbers.Some are even saying you've been set up and have fallen into the trap. I think that quite true. If you ask them what they think of the British they say "troublemakers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I bet Dune is all in a quandry now after he proclaimed it a great move by Cameron, only for the leader of the party he now votes for coming out and saying Dave ballsed up. We have put ourselves onto a course away from the continentals. That pleases me very much. We are the UK - we'll do what we want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Brilliant. So now, we remain in the EU, but because of Cameron's gung-ho attitude and his giving in to his backbenchers to take an awful aggressive stance, everyone in Europe probably hates us more. We've lost our influence. Cameron had a chance to shape and change how Europe will look like in the next generation, but instead caved in under pressure. Weak weak weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 everyone in Europe probably hates us more. Gutted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Isolation will be great. NOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 We have put ourselves onto a course away from the continentals. That pleases me very much. We are the UK - we'll do what we want. Which makes one wonder why Farage isn't happy too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 1356: The majority of BBC News website readers in the UK who have been getting in touch with us today believe David Cameron made the right decision - here is a selection of your views Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Rob Schwarzenberg in Munich, Germany emails: I am sick and tired of the UK. You guys only care about yourself and whinge about Germany all the time... where would Europe be without the German taxpayers? My message to the Brits is: European Union... love it or leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Merkel has just said that they will now be pushing for political union on the back of this. Germany now have what they have desired for centuries. They will soon have conducted a subtly executed but masterfully delivered bloodless conquest of Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 BBC Newsfeed 1346: An editorial in the French newspaper, Le Monde, is not surprised by Britain's position: "Let's be fair. The British have nothing to do with the euro crisis. They are not responsible for the inability of the eurozone leaders to resolve their sovereign debt problems. It makes sense that the British resist a move towards greater economic and budgetary integration. They don't believe in it. They do not believe in the idea of the European Union. Britain, which joined the then European Economic Community in 1973, is interested just in one thing: the single market. They [the British] are indifferent about the rest of the European project, when they are not hostile to it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I note with interest saintandy that the majority of commentators in the uk on this issue (if you read the bbc) believe it was the right thing to do with mostly labour supporters disagreeing. Also, the person you voted for agreed with this way forward. Today is a great day where we finally stood up to Germany and France and opposed their plan they were trying to force on us. Im feeling pretty patriotic and remembering my grandad and how proud he would be that we didn't cave and stood alone for what was right. This is what makes Britain great. I say pull out of the eu but stay in the common market and negotiate on an individual basis. Strengthen our ties with historical trading partners and be free to decide our own laws and implement the policies that the british public wants rather than those forced upon us by the oppressive Brussels regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Louwieke DeVos, in Amsterdam emails: I am not surprised at Britain's decision to not sign over any control over her finances in an effort to save a currency she does not use. It should only apply to the 17 eurozone countries. I am surprised though that six to eight other countries not using the euro would sign up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 BBC Newsfeed 1334: "We chose to pick up the ball and leave the pitch before the game started", according to Lord Kerr, Britain's former ambassador to the European Union under Margaret Thatcher and then John Major. He told the BBC that he found it "odd" that Prime Minister David Cameron had chosen not to negotiate on the new treaty, saying it is "conceivable that the management of the Conservative party was a factor in his thinking". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Merkel has just said that they will now be pushing for political union on the back of this. Germany now have what they have desired for centuries. They will soon have conducted a subtly executed but masterfully delivered bloodless conquest of Europe. Exactly. This has been the plan from the start. I refuse to let what my ancestors fought for be in vain. We stood alone during two world wars and we knew what was right then and we know what is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 9 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Isolation will be great. NOT. Andy you are just a child. When you grow up I expect you will think with more maturity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Exactly. This has been the plan from the start. I refuse to let what my ancestors fought for be in vain. We stood alone during two world wars and we knew what was right then and we know what is right now. This is not a Churchill moment you imbecile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Andy you are just a child. When you grow up I expect you will think with more maturity. I would like to meet his parents. I wonder what they must be like to raise such a son. I bet they hate Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 This is not a Churchill moment you imbecile. Germany are attempting to do through economic means what they failed to by force in the last generation. Only Britain oppose them. Those who fail to recognise this are the imbecile. No doubt they are the same people who supports the euro and other euro projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I would like to meet his parents. I wonder what they must be like to raise such a son. I bet they hate Britain. What on earth are you going on about? That's just a plain weird post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Germany are attempting to do through economic means what they failed to by force in the last generation. Only Britain oppose them. Those who fail to recognise this are the imbecile. No doubt they are the same people who supports the euro and other euro projects. What's this now, Nazi economics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Germany are attempting to do through economic means what they failed to by force in the last generation. Only Britain oppose them. Those who fail to recognise this are the imbecile. No doubt they are the same people who supports the euro and other euro projects. So the Germans are trying to exterminate the Jewish race, still believe in the supremacy of the Aryan race and want to impose their National Socialism on all they conquer? Grow up you idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 So the Germans are trying to exterminate the Jewish race, still believe in the supremacy of the Aryan race and want to impose their National Socialism on all they conquer? Grow up you idiot. Socialism can grow in unexpected places. Germany will effectively rule Europe after this and there are no safeguards or the future. I am proud that we stood form and so are the majority of the British public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigShadow Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 All I keep hearing is Britain will be marginalised - and Britain part of the second tier of the EU - and The world will be plunged into a financial ice age if the Euro fails. WTF??? Where is the positive campaign highlighting the benefits of closer financial integration for Britain? Its all threats that is akin to a schoolkid saying 'If you don't play by my rules I'm going to take my ball away and not play with you anymore'. Remember - we were told over a decade ago, that if Britain didn't join the Euro then businesses would abandon the country in droves and it would spell disaster for our economy. Well, we managed to survive. Why is it that the very people who orchestrated the very catastrophe that now exists, are the same people to be trusted with leading us further down the dark alley? Will Britain lose its influence outside the Eurozone? How much influence would Britain REALLY have inside the Franco - German pact that will control the Eurozone? Someone said Cameron has made Britain the Black Sheep of Europe - well I thought we had obtained that title 20 years ago. The sensible solution is to let the Eurozone countries go their own way as they are free to choose to do. Forget the EU, other European states (incl. Britain) can be part of a renewed EFTA as per the original vision in the 1960's. Surely there is room to make both options available to Europe's nations without accusations of derailing the greater European purpose. It does not have to be all or nothing in terms of our relationship with Europe. Either way - there needs to be a referendum. and soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 1426: Ed Miliband, leader of Britain's opposition Labour party, says David Cameron "mishandled these negotiations spectacularly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Socialism can grow in unexpected places. Germany will effectively rule Europe after this and there are no safeguards or the future. I am proud that we stood form and so are the majority of the British public. National Socialism is a tiny bit different to Socialism. To compare this stand to the ones that cost millions of people their lives is ridiculous. You really are an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 Why should the French and Germans dictate to everyone what they should do? Europe becomes less and less democratic as we move forward. That is why the prospect of Germany as an unappointed head of Europe is a scary one for the longer term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 National Socialism is a tiny bit different to Socialism. To compare this stand to the ones that cost millions of people their lives is ridiculous. You really are an idiot. Of course it is now but in fifty year time? Sovereign countries able to make their own rules and not effectively being governed by a larger country with more power is just one reason against closer integration but it is an important one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16107949 "UK trade deficit narrows as exports hit a record. The UK's trade deficit narrowed sharply in October, as the value of exports hit a record high, official figures have shown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swannymere Posted 9 December, 2011 Share Posted 9 December, 2011 I am proud that we stood form and so are the majority of the British public. The majority of the British watch X-Factor, I'm a Celebrity and Strictly Come Dancing not really a hot bed of sound opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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