Dave's Maggie Moment

[Verbal]

BBC Breaking News: Hungary & Czech republic WON'T give up independant taxation rights and are now doubtful to sign up to the new treaty

 

Neither is in the eurozone, so once Britain split, it was bound to be difficult to keep them onside.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Sweden is not in the eurozone, and is a well-run welfare state, so it stands to lose if the EU-imposed budgetary constraints are applied. Ireland, as far as I know, is just muttering about a referendum. But yes, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the imminent victory of the Left in France. Even they won't 'veto' the financial straitjacket - just work around it the way they always have.

 

Good to see you complimenting the Right of centre government in Sweden; driving growth with tax cuts and reductions in state spending.

[alpine_saint]

Neither is in the eurozone, so once Britain split, it was bound to be difficult to keep them onside.

 

Yeah, must be Britains fault; it cant possibly be that the treaty is sh*t and undemocratic

[trousers]

Neither is in the eurozone, so once Britain split, it was bound to be difficult to keep them onside.

 

Indeed

[alpine_saint]

Sweden is not in the eurozone, and is a well-run welfare state, so it stands to lose if the EU-imposed budgetary constraints are applied. Ireland, as far as I know, is just muttering about a referendum. But yes, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the imminent victory of the Left in France. Even they won't 'veto' the financial straitjacket - just work around it the way they always have.

 

*code for lecture others about unity then pursue the national interest exactly the same way as the nations they are abusing*

[Verbal]

Yeah, must be Britains fault; it cant possibly be that the treaty is sh*t and undemocratic

 

You distribute your sarcasm so liberally and aimlessly it's hard to know who you're directing it at. I'm just reporting a fact, not commenting on it.

[trousers]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/15/france-eurozone-row-uk-credit-downgrade

 

"France stokes eurozone row with call for UK credit downgrade"

[Verbal]

Good to see you complimenting the Right of centre government in Sweden; driving growth with tax cuts and reductions in state spending.

 

Left or right, Sweden is and has been for ages a very well run welfare state with still high rates of taxation compared to the UK.

[trousers]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/15/britain-build-europe-outside-euro

 

"Britain can build a Europe outside the euro - Cameron should position himself as the defender of a European escape route from a project that has every chance of collapsing

 

Britain needs to stress that it sees the euro as the great danger to Europe and, rather than bizarrely pushing for its centralisation under a German economic aegis – a provision that will ensure permanent proletarianisation for the southern nations – it needs to seek and create a new EU growth pact for those who wish for an alternative outside the euro but in Europe. For the common currency area that might mean separate euro zones or parallel currencies with greater or smaller spreads in relation to the euro. Rather than letting domestic policy-needs trump any international dimension, if Cameron is clever he could utilise one to augment the other and create a euro opt-out for nations for whom saving the euro would mean their own democratic erasure and impoverishment . If Cameron can make the most of this policy opportunity he will have created a vital exit strategy for European nations from a policy and a position that has every chance of failing. And, in time, Europe may thank Britain once again for saving them from themselves"

[trousers]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/dec/14/edmiliband-davidcameron

 

Has Ed Miliband suffered his Westland moment as David Cameron wins?

 

MPs draw parallels between Ed Miliband and Neil Kinnock who struggled against Margaret Thatcher during Westland crisis.

 

David Cameron faces Ed Miliband at the last prime minister's questions of 2011 Link to this video Prime minister's questions was bound to be tricky for David Cameron today. He needed to attack Ed Miliband, who was on strong form on Monday in response to the prime minister's statement on the European summit. But Cameron could not be too aggressive because of the deep Liberal Democrat unease over the prime minister's decision to wield the British veto in Brussels on Friday.

 

Even with these difficulties, Cameron put in one of his strongest performances of the year at the last session of prime minister's questions before Christmas. Some government MPs were even drawing comparisons with Neil Kinnock's woeful performance during the commons debate on the Westland crisis in 1986. Margaret Thatcher went into the debate wondering whether she would still be prime minister by the end of the day. In the end she emerged stronger after Kinnock spoke for too long and lost his way.

 

This is why Miliband failed to score a clear hit:

 

• Lack of versatility

The key moment came when Cameron delivered, with perfect timing, his pre-prepared joke in response to Miliband's inevitable jibe about tensions between the prime minister and his deputy:

"No one in this house is going to be surprised that

Conservatives

and

Liberal Democrats

don't always agree about Europe. But let me reassure him he shouldn't believe everything he reads in the papers. It's not that bad. It's not like we're brothers or anything."

As Tory MPs erupted into laugher there was a pause before a chuckling Cameron added:

"He certainly walked into that one."

A versatile leader with the sort of emotional intelligence required to be a truly front rank politician would have thrown the joke back at the prime minister. Miliband lacks that confidence so he just trotted out his pre-prepared joke. It was an excellent joke but it fell flat because they failed to capture the mood of the house. He said:

"I think our sympathy is with the deputy prime minister. His partner goes on a business trip. He is left waiting by the phone and he hears nothing until a rambling phone call at 4am confessing to a terrible mistake."

 

• Lack of clarity

Cameron challenged Miliband to say what he would have done at the summit. The Labour leader came close to answering this when he told the prime minister he should re-enter the negotiations. Miliband quoted Nick Clegg as saying there was a better deal.

Miliband's careful remarks in this area show the sensitivity of the European crisis for Labour. The party can attack the government's negotiating tactics. But Labour is wary of saying that it was wrong for the prime minister to seek protections for the City of London.

• Labour's record

Miliband found once again that it is difficult to challenge the government over the rise in youth unemployment. This is because it started to rise to levels where it became a structural problem back in 2004.

The Labour leader raised this issue before Europe. The prime minister showed that David Miliband is turning into a very helpful prop when he said:

"We won't take lectures from a party that put up youth unemployment by 40%. Even his brother admitted the other day that youth unemployment was not a problem invented by this government. It's been going up since 2004"

Cameron's success means that one of Miliband's main messages today, which could resonate in the years ahead, did not really strike home. This is that one of the government's central ambitions for the economy – that the private sector would pick up the slack as the public sector shrinks – is failing.

Government MPs thought Cameron was the clear winner. One said:

"It had a slight feel of Neil Kinnock and Westland. The prime minister was there for the taking and Miliband failed."

 

Edited 15 December, 2011 by trousers

[Verbal]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/15/britain-build-europe-outside-euro

 

"Britain can build a Europe outside the euro - Cameron should position himself as the defender of a European escape route from a project that has every chance of collapsing

 

Britain needs to stress that it sees the euro as the great danger to Europe and, rather than bizarrely pushing for its centralisation under a German economic aegis – a provision that will ensure permanent proletarianisation for the southern nations – it needs to seek and create a new EU growth pact for those who wish for an alternative outside the euro but in Europe. For the common currency area that might mean separate euro zones or parallel currencies with greater or smaller spreads in relation to the euro. Rather than letting domestic policy-needs trump any international dimension, if Cameron is clever he could utilise one to augment the other and create a euro opt-out for nations for whom saving the euro would mean their own democratic erasure and impoverishment . If Cameron can make the most of this policy opportunity he will have created a vital exit strategy for European nations from a policy and a position that has every chance of failing. And, in time, Europe may thank Britain once again for saving them from themselves"

 

If you read that carefully you should be worried. How badly do you want to get into bed with Greeks (nation-wise)?

[Window Cleaner]

*code for lecture others about unity then pursue the national interest exactly the same way as the nations they are abusing*

 

I personally fear those soppy socialists, Mitterandism is what got France into this mess in the first place.Putting hundreds of thousands of workers from nationalised industries out to grass at 50 (and earlier) on full and generous pensions has caused massive

desequilbria in the system. You only have to look at the SNCF, they have twice as many retirees as workers paying into the system.The state has to subsidise the SNCF pension fund to the tune of about 4 billion euros per year,it's the same for the old Renault,Peugeot,Citroen,PTT schemes.

 

The PTT kicked my brother in law out to grass the day he was 52,just because he was such a trouble making commie knob,gets about 25K euros a year now,it pays in France to be a knob in your workplace...well if you're a civil servant it does.

[Window Cleaner]

If you read that carefully you should be worried. How badly do you want to get into bed with Greeks (nation-wise)?

 

Depends if Nana Mouskouri is still after taking back your marbles I guess

[Window Cleaner]

Left or right, Sweden is and has been for ages a very well run welfare state with still high rates of taxation compared to the UK.

 

25% VAT I think,Reduced rates at 6% and 12%. Just imagine how all you UKers would howl if there were suddenly an extra 6%

on your weekly grocery bill.

[alpine_saint]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/15/britain-build-europe-outside-euro

 

"Britain can build a Europe outside the euro - Cameron should position himself as the defender of a European escape route from a project that has every chance of collapsing

 

Britain needs to stress that it sees the euro as the great danger to Europe and, rather than bizarrely pushing for its centralisation under a German economic aegis – a provision that will ensure permanent proletarianisation for the southern nations – it needs to seek and create a new EU growth pact for those who wish for an alternative outside the euro but in Europe. For the common currency area that might mean separate euro zones or parallel currencies with greater or smaller spreads in relation to the euro. Rather than letting domestic policy-needs trump any international dimension, if Cameron is clever he could utilise one to augment the other and create a euro opt-out for nations for whom saving the euro would mean their own democratic erasure and impoverishment . If Cameron can make the most of this policy opportunity he will have created a vital exit strategy for European nations from a policy and a position that has every chance of failing. And, in time, Europe may thank Britain once again for saving them from themselves"

 

Strange, I was watching 1984 last night. Orwell would be proud of his prophesizing...

[alpine_saint]

If you read that carefully you should be worried. How badly do you want to get into bed with Greeks (nation-wise)?

 

Its in the Guardian. I wouldve thought that was the equivalent of the old grey beardie-weirde on Mt. Siani clutching two slaps of stone to you...

[Verbal]

Its in the Guardian. I wouldve thought that was the equivalent of the old grey beardie-weirde on Mt. Siani clutching two slaps of stone to you...

 

Just can't resist can you. Pity about the spelling though. How about debating the issues rather than using every opportunity for childish ad hominem pokes.

[Window Cleaner]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/15/britain-build-europe-outside-euro

 

"Britain can build a Europe outside the euro - Cameron should position himself as the defender of a European escape route from a project that has every chance of collapsing

 

Britain needs to stress that it sees the euro as the great danger to Europe and, rather than bizarrely pushing for its centralisation under a German economic aegis – a provision that will ensure permanent proletarianisation for the southern nations – it needs to seek and create a new EU growth pact for those who wish for an alternative outside the euro but in Europe. For the common currency area that might mean separate euro zones or parallel currencies with greater or smaller spreads in relation to the euro. Rather than letting domestic policy-needs trump any international dimension, if Cameron is clever he could utilise one to augment the other and create a euro opt-out for nations for whom saving the euro would mean their own democratic erasure and impoverishment . If Cameron can make the most of this policy opportunity he will have created a vital exit strategy for European nations from a policy and a position that has every chance of failing. And, in time, Europe may thank Britain once again for saving them from themselves"

 

So is what being said here 'If you want to carry on spending money that you don't actually have, but what the heck you can just print it anyway, join our club?

 

Forgive me for asking, I am not an expert on fiscal policy but that's what it looks like to me.

[alpine_saint]

Just can't resist can you. Pity about the spelling though. How about debating the issues rather than using every opportunity for childish ad hominem pokes.

 

Sorry, I try to avoid the jokes, but quite frankly you are a target for vitriol on the scale of Harriet Harman, and therefore fiendishly difficult to resist

[hypochondriac]

BBC Breaking News: Hungary & Czech republic WON'T give up independant taxation rights and are now doubtful to sign up to the new treaty

 

Master stroke. Just like that we have significant allies.

[scotty]

But yes, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the imminent victory of the Left in France. Even they won't 'veto' the financial straitjacket - just ignore it the way they always have.

 

edited it for you, that was clearly a typo.

[Guided Missile]

Window Cleaner

I personally fear those soppy socialists, Mitterandism is what got France into this mess in the first place.Putting hundreds of thousands of workers from nationalised industries out to grass at 50 (and earlier) on full and generous pensions has caused massive

desequilbria in the system. You only have to look at the SNCF, they have twice as many retirees as workers paying into the system.The state has to subsidise the SNCF pension fund to the tune of about 4 billion euros per year,it's the same for the old Renault,Peugeot,Citroen,PTT schemes.

 

The PTT kicked my brother in law out to grass the day he was 52,just because he was such a trouble making commie knob,gets about 25K euros a year now,it pays in France to be a knob in your workplace...well if you're a civil servant it does.

 

Turning back the clock three years:

 

Scummer 14-01-2009

Is France doing ok then?

Window Cleaner -14-01-2009

Lets say the average household is by far less exposed to the effects of lack of credit.Credit is far more harshly regulated in France. IN THEORY you can't borrow more than you can afford to repay.France will suffer from the global downturn to be sure but on the whole the average household won't suffer much in the short term.Neither will you run of the mill business.There'll be hard time but not too many house repossessions will occur. We have our idiots as well, it's possible to contourn the credit regulations by outright lying,veilling the truth and falsifying documents but it's not really widespread. I'd say immigration is a by far greater problem than the credit crunch just now. When you see it from without it's far far worse than what you see from within. Been heading on a downward spiral for about 5 years. Everybody told you all in blighty that endless credit for anything and everything would be your come uppance. looks like they might haver been right. It was obvious to anyone who talked to some of the holiday oiks that we get here in France that they were living way way above their means funded by credit.Stupid people with IQs of about 0.5 driving BMW 4x4s obtained on credit but with mortgage arrears totting up.

 

Guided Missile 14-01-2009

I don't want to pi $$ on your bonfire, but I wouldn't crack open the champagne too soon. A few facts:•Currently, France has a debt of 66.6% of their GDP.

•Gross debt could rise to around 72 percent of GDP in 2010 as the French economy contracts by 1.5%. •Today France is using approximately 89% of the income tax or 140% of its corporation tax to pay on the interest alone for the national debt.

•UK National debt is about 43% of GDP A debt of 43% of GDP isn't bad for a nation that refused to collaborate with the Nazis and were prepared to spend

all of it's gold reserves helping to free the rest of Europe from tyranny. The rest of the money, we needed to spend on armaments to defend "Blighty" and liberate France and the rest of Europe, we borrowed from the US under the lend lease programme, a loan which we finished paying back on 29th December, 2006.

Window Cleaner 14-01-2009

These are just statistics,important ones no doubt but they do not affect the average househokld in any way shape or form. As for all of the rest I couldn't give a sh*t. I know from speaking to many many people how it is in "France profond" Simple people,living simply without all the trappings and attributes that so many of our countymen seem to need so badly.I work with 107 other people and not oner of them is in any way affected by the "global downturn".

Guided Missile 14-01-2009

Out of touch, expat gone native, IMO. A quick read of the history of France will tell you it is bound to go t!ts up soon, with another corrupt government installed to try and sort out the mess, as Paris riots and burns and tractors block the roads, fisherman the ports. Take a look a what's happening in Greece. It's more relevant to you than what is happening in "Blighty".

On second thoughts, have another bottle of wine and shrug. It's what the French do in a crisis.

:lol:

[Verbal]

Sorry, I try to avoid the jokes, but quite frankly you are a target for vitriol on the scale of Harriet Harman, and therefore fiendishly difficult to resist

 

Well that's your choice and your problem that I'm a 'target for vitriol' - this a discussion forum not an excuse for the socially inadequate to spunk 'vitriol'. I just wish you could resist blubbering, foaming-at-the-mouth digressions into personal abuse and stay on topic. If not, fine. I'll just have to skip over your posts. Somehow I don't think I'll be missing much.

[Window Cleaner]

Ah well in 2009 we weren't faced with another 5 years of SocioCommunism and all it's failings that is the whole point.

[Special K]

Just can't resist can you. Pity about the spelling though. How about debating the issues rather than using every opportunity for childish ad hominem pokes.

 

Has anyone got a picture of a pot and a picture of a kettle to post up? Thanks.

[Verbal]

Has anyone got a picture of a pot and a picture of a kettle to post up? Thanks.

 

A completely inappropriate comment. As a senior member of the liberal elite I have special privileges.

 

And I'm only trying to help. Dave's set the course for the destruction of the coalition and the stripping of the City of billions of euros of business, so Post-Dave Britain is nearer than you think. I hope and expect that Frank Sweeney can count on your vote.

[derry]

To be honest Derry, Hollande just doesn't know what he wants,he keeps saying he's going to do this and do that to please his Commy and Green friends and then his advisors say "Nope you can't do that François,we can't afford it".Poor bugger is all in a tizz and his advance in the polls is being frittered away every time he opens his mouth,now the Greens are going to go it alone as well.

Poor bugger is stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea just as his ex was last time round.He wasn't even supposed to be the candidate for the socialists,DSK was odds on favourite but as the UMP already had a file about 10 ft high on his whoremongering and sleaze I guess the socialist knew they would have to drop him sooner or later.No doubt his own party set him up because they knew that Sarko was just waiting for him to be pronounced official candidate before the Lille Call Girl ring and his warning from the police in the Bois de Boulogne in 2006 were used against him.

 

You couldn't make it up. No wonder the whole EU thing is so corrupt. If it wasn't politicians, bureaucrats and and governments they would all be doing a stretch.

[derry]

A completely inappropriate comment. As a senior member of the liberal elite I have special privileges.

 

And I'm only trying to help. Dave's set the course for the destruction of the coalition and the stripping of the City of billions of euros of business, so Post-Dave Britain is nearer than you think. I hope and expect that Frank Sweeney can count on your vote.

 

If he had the guts to call an election and guarantee an in/out referendum within three months if conservatives win outright, he could dispense with the liberal elite as it would be a landslide.

[Verbal]

If he had the guts to call an election and guarantee an in/out referendum within three months if conservatives win outright, he could dispense with the liberal elite as it would be a landslide.

 

Not so fast Tory boy. Labour and Lib Dem voters still far outnumber Tories, even while Dave is on a very temporary high. An electoral majority for the swivel-eyed Bullingdon clique is still far over the horizon.

[derry]

Not so fast Tory boy. Labour and Lib Dem voters still far outnumber Tories, even while Dave is on a very temporary high. An electoral majority for the swivel-eyed Bullingdon clique is still far over the horizon.

 

I'm no Tory but the others are unelectable. Milliband and Clegg are a joke.

[pap]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/15/france-eurozone-row-uk-credit-downgrade

 

"France stokes eurozone row with call for UK credit downgrade"

 

This is staggeringly short-sighted of the current French government. Seems weird that they would play this card. Is this really a government we want to have a defence agreement with?

[pap]

Not so fast Tory boy. Labour and Lib Dem voters still far outnumber Tories, even while Dave is on a very temporary high. An electoral majority for the swivel-eyed Bullingdon clique is still far over the horizon.

 

Thatcher's government was on its way out prior to the Falklands. I remember a Labour activist telling me about canvassing in the run-up to the 1983 General Election. Knocked on a door which was promptly answered by an unemployed male. Spent a bit of time telling the guy what Labour would do to improve his employment prospects. When he asked if he could count on the guy's vote, he said "No. I'm voting Conservative. Maggie won the Falklands, didn't she?".

 

The moral of this story. Populist moves work, especially if it involves the UK sticking two fingers up to everyone else.

 

Honestly don't know whether Cameron and co would be returned in a General Election, but the short-term poll jump they've seen would indicate that there is at least an element of populist support at play.

 

And derry has a point. Miliband is unelectable, and the Lib Dems have no hope.

 

My tips for the big winners in the next General Election? UKIP and depending on what happens next, the Tories. Wouldn't be surprised if it happens in 2012, either. I know they're saying that this is a 5 year parliament "no matter what", but that's dependent on the Coalition holding. How much more can the Lib Dems actually take?

[Weston Saint]

This is staggeringly short-sighted of the current French government. Seems weird that they would play this card. Is this really a government we want to have a defence agreement with?

 

But Bank of France governor Christian Noyer said they should instead be looking at the UK because of the scale of debt and inflation and the poor levels of growth and bank lending on this side of the Channel.

 

Noyer told Le Telegramme newspaper that a downgrade for France – which would drive up the interest Paris pays to borrow and make loans in the wider economy more expensive – "doesn't strike me as justified based on economic fundamentals".

 

"Or if it is, they should start by downgrading the UK, which has a bigger deficit, as much debt, more inflation, weaker growth and where bank lending is collapsing," he added.

 

Not the French Government but the Govenor of the Bank of France. And when you look at his quoted words surely it is fair comment!

[View From The Top]

If he had the guts to call an election and guarantee an in/out referendum within three months if conservatives win outright, he could dispense with the liberal elite as it would be a landslide.

 

There is no way he'd offer an in/out vote as his paymasters want us in.

 

He's caught between the rabid right and big business.

[View From The Top]

Ed is just keeping the seat warm, we all know that.

[pap]

Not the French Government but the Govenor of the Bank of France. And when you look at his quoted words surely it is fair comment!

 

Fair enough. The Bank of France is independent (which I have just learned thanks to Wiki )

 

Can't really disagree with their assessment either, but it's a bit like grassing your neighbours up because you've got into trouble.

[derry]

If Cameron doesn't become more euro-sceptic he could in due course face a leadership challenge or a no confidence vote. If he does, the coalition may well fall apart anyway. Either way the people of this country are now predominantly anti Europe and that in itself dooms the coalition's pro Europe position and the Conservatives know it.

[dune]

1 versus 26.

 

It would seem that others are now not so sure...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-26-fight-to-stop-pact-unravelling-6277137.html

Edited 16 December, 2011 by dune

[dune]

Ed is just keeping the seat warm, we all know that.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-trouble-with-ed-labour-mps-gripes-over-leader-6277712.html

 

I hope Balls gets the job.

[pap]

1 versus 26.

 

It would seem that others are now not so sure...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-26-fight-to-stop-pact-unravelling-6277137.html

 

Never really bought the 1-v-26 argument. I said so on this very thread.

 

I am not ITK, just occasionally right

[trousers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16209414

UK officials will join talks over eurozone deal

 

UK officials will join talks over what should be in a eurozone fiscal pact, despite refusing to sign up to it.

The UK has accepted an invitation from the European Council to join talks, alongside 17 eurozone states and nine other EU states considering signing up.

[Saintandy666]

Don't know why we have already said we won't sign up. Should have joined the talks, not just as an observer and then refused to sign once there is an actual draft treaty.

[trousers]

Don't know why we have already said we won't sign up. Should have joined the talks, not just as an observer and then refused to sign once there is an actual draft treaty.

 

I think that's what they call "dithering" in some circles...*cough* Ed Milliband *cough*

 

;-)

[buctootim]

I think that's what they call "dithering" in some circles...*cough* Ed Milliband *cough*

 

;-)

 

Absolutely.Always best to be decisive and decide you wont agree to something before you know what it says.

[trousers]

Absolutely.Always best to be decisive and decide you wont agree to something before you know what it says.

 

So, on that logic, one assumes you'll be listening to the next Chris de Burgh album in full before choosing whether or not to buy it ....? ;-)

 

Quite often you don't need to open the tin when the writing on the lid is clear enough....

 

That was a statement by the Tenuous Analogy Party

[Ken Tone]

So is what being said here 'If you want to carry on spending money that you don't actually have, but what the heck you can just print it anyway, join our club?

 

Forgive me for asking, I am not an expert on fiscal policy but that's what it looks like to me.

 

Shouldn't this post have been on the Pompey takeover thread?

[dune]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16209414

UK officials will join talks over eurozone deal

 

UK officials will join talks over what should be in a eurozone fiscal pact, despite refusing to sign up to it.

The UK has accepted an invitation from the European Council to join talks, alongside 17 eurozone states and nine other EU states considering signing up.

 

The Germans need us and if we hold our nerve we will get our way. David Cameron is upper class, which the "chip on the shoulder Socialists" hate, but as far as I see it I think it's a good thing in a leader as he is bred to rule. It's just as I said:

 

It sent out a message. We don't bluff.

 

We are Great Britain, We do what we say.

 

Now in the case of the little Frenchman this confrontation plays well for him with an election coming up in 2015 and with him 15 points behind in the polls, but for Angela Merkel it is different. She really wants us on side. She needs us on side. Along with the Scandinavians, we are all of the Germanic race. This may seem an old fashioned categorisation, but if you discount the bleatings of the Liberal Elite, and instead look at the reality, you will see that as a race of people we are profoundly different to those of Latin Europe.

 

People are talking about OUR isolation, but make no mistake - David Cameron's stance has isolated Germany more. It is for this reason that DC's tough stance will imho reap it's rewards and I fully expect our demands to be met in due course. Merkel will see to that. She is no fool.

 

If DC holds his nerve (and upsets a few wishy washy Liberals) he will ultimately be victorious at both a national and a european level.

[Window Cleaner]

The Germans need us and if we hold our nerve we will get our way. David Cameron is upper class, which the "chip on the shoulder Socialists" hate, but as far as I see it I think it's a good thing in a leader as he is bred to rule. It's just as I said:

 

To be exact Sarko was only 3 points behind in the first round polls published today.One you'll like is that Marine Le Pen of the Front National is polling at 20% ,4 behind Sarkozy.If the situation gets much worse she could even make the 2nd round, just like her dad in 2002,might even do a bit better as well.The French want change but they don't really want the Socialists either

[CB Saint]

Don't know why we have already said we won't sign up. Should have joined the talks, not just as an observer and then refused to sign once there is an actual draft treaty.

 

You and Mr Milliband say that as if we had a choice. How do you know that Sarkozy wasn't saying, "This is the only deal on the table, tell us now if you are going to sign or not" This is what I suspect happened. The talks regarding a "fiscal compact" were never open to us - it was always the Treaty or nothing. That is what suited Sarkozy's domestic agenda.

[CB Saint]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16222988

 

Ever get the feeling that we might not get a xmas card from the French this year.

 

Perhaps we should have a pop back, instead of rolling over. Their banks are screwed, they were downgraded last week, they have massive exposure to southern european government bonds and they are in the euro. Their cheif source of funding is their government which is facing a ratings downgrade which will significantly affect their banks ability to raise money from the state.

 

There must be a modern day equivalent of the "up yours, delors" motto we can use.