Dave's Maggie Moment

[pap]

Frank, it's one thing being long-winded and boring about whether Saints should play 4-4-2 and to be fair, I am like many others that don't get beyond your name on a post, but I made the mistake, this time, to see a rare event. You being concise and making a valid point. The problem is that you are reducing a century of achievement of the British empire to a sentence that pertains to be fact. Any person with a GCSE in history could see it is more complicated than that, but you seem to think that because you post it, it is a fact. A fact you hang your whole left leaning, liberal and wholly redundant political view on.

 

 

The above statement stands out as a large turd in the midst of a whole pile of boring cr @p and expalins why I will never make the mistake of reading a long post from you again....

 

Please don't reply to my posts Frank because I never read what you post.

 

Frank, you do have something worthwhile to say, it just frustrates me that you use 10 words to say it when 1 will suffice...

 

You come across as a wind-bag that makes reasoned comments, if one has the patience for you.

 

Few suggestions for you chaps based on your comments.

 

Twitter may be a more suitable form of information for you. Each message is 140 characters long and should suit your presumably short attention spans.

 

Stay away from bookshops and libraries. They are full of books, pamphlets and all sorts of other materials. All of them contain words. Lots of them.

 

Finally, it's a p*ss-poor standard of bullying right there. Might I suggest that you consult the exploits of Gripper Stebson ( 1980s Grange Hill ) or alternatively, any of the nutjobs ( Combo, etc ) in the This Is England films or series? I really feel they could help you raise your game.

[Verbal]

Few suggestions for you chaps based on your comments.

 

Twitter may be a more suitable form of information for you. Each message is 140 characters long and should suit your presumably short attention spans.

 

Stay away from bookshops and libraries. They are full of books, pamphlets and all sorts of other materials. All of them contain words. Lots of them.

 

Finally, it's a p*ss-poor standard of bullying right there. Might I suggest that you consult the exploits of Gripper Stebson ( 1980s Grange Hill ) or alternatively, any of the nutjobs ( Combo, etc ) in the This Is England films or series? I really feel they could help you raise your game.

 

I thought you were too busy to read books.

 

And honestly, I think left and right can unite (good slogan?) on Frank's posts being in need of an editor (No hostility intended). It's his choice - but I'd recommend the guy who edits Jeffrey Archer.

[trousers]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2073968/Britain-needs-plan-Great-Escape-Europe.html

 

Britain needs to plan its Great Escape from Europe

 

By Janice Atkinson-small

 

Last updated at 11:03 AM on 14th December 2011

 

Britain is in course for The Great Escape. That’s leaving the EU. Cracks are becoming evident in the plan to save the euro, the markets are wising up to it and the non-existent bailout plan is doomed. We can now save ourselves and our financial markets.

 

Last week’s summit was supposed to restructure the euro to avert 'disorderly collapse', and it failed. The euro states cannot even win German agreement to monetary easing or the flotation of emergency eurobonds.

 

Nothing has been done to rescue the euro, except what is always done in such crises: a move to 'ever-closer union'.

 

There is now a German-led 'unequal treaty' imposing a battery of budgetary and fiscal disciplines on Greece, Italy, Spain and possibly France, in the hope of calming markets. This in turn means decisions over budgets, taxes, benefits and transfers taken away from elected national parliaments and put in the hands of ministerial councils and Brussels commissioners. This is unenforceable.

 

Already governments in Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Italy that sought outside help and austerity in return have been toppled by their electorates. The ministerial councils and commissioners may have control over those governments for the time being but, so far, not over the ballot boxes.

 

How are the markets reacting? Bond markets are already seizing up.

 

As they wait for clarity from the region’s leaders, banks and investors are simply sitting on cash.

 

Following recent data that showed a decline in Eurozone money supply, figures out yesterday proved banks are hoarding cash at the European Central Bank (ECB). Overnight deposits hit €346bn (£291bn) – the highest level since the period after Greece’s 2010 bailout.

 

Lenders have seen funding lines dry up: data provided by Dealogic shows that the market for bank paper is in deep freeze. The volume of unsecured debt sales for the second half of this year is down more than fourfold versus the €232.9bn sold in the first half.

 

Even sales of covered bonds, the most secure kind of debt, have plunged, from €177.4bn in the first half to €64.5bn in the second.

 

And banks have to pay more to issue: the three-month London interbank offered rate (Libor), a vital cost benchmark, has risen by more than a third to over one per cent this year.

 

The markets are hoping that the sticking plasters that have been applied over the past two years will work. It is in their interests as the debts that some countries have run up cannot be repaid and the creditors cannot afford to write off the debts.

 

The new treaty is not in the markets interest as it will provide for additional regulation that will mean higher capital reserve requirements for banks, and so they will be able to lend less and so that will reduce potential for growth.

 

The eurozone cannot survive, two years after the crisis began, progress remains as elusive as ever.

 

The banks and markets are playing hardball. The electorates are revolting yet the politicians continue to play to their own national politics, this is why it will not survive.

 

What should happen next for Britain is that we should start to plan for The Great Escape. We can then plan for real growth with a low tax and regulation economy; release our businesses from Brussels’ red tape and bureaucracy; repeal the Agency Workers’ Directive and save hundreds of thousands of jobs; free our financial services industry from euro regulatory controls; take back control of what remains of our fishing industry and trade with the rest of the world.

 

Oh, and Europe, because we will still buy their Mercedes, BMWs and excellent food and wine.

 

Edited 14 December, 2011 by trousers

[Minty]

And honestly, I think left and right can unite (good slogan?) on Frank's posts being in need of an editor (No hostility intended).

That may be the case, but the way GM, alpine and dune responded was inappropriate IMO. But that's just one of the reasons people have little respect for their opinions, because they don't show it to others. Shame because there were some good posts in this thread, and then it gets brought crashing down by posts like theirs.

[pap]

I thought you were too busy to read books.

 

Where did I say that I was reading books?

 

Just offering constructive suggestions on how to avoid verbiage. I should know. I'm not very well-read, after all

 

And honestly, I think left and right can unite (good slogan?) on Frank's posts being in need of an editor (No hostility intended). It's his choice - but I'd recommend the guy who edits Jeffrey Archer.

 

Possibly, but a PM might have illustrated a touch more class.

[Minty]

Back on topic, another interesting take on things, and why Cameron's decision might be a good thing, if for different reasons to that he intended: http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/2011/12/14/eu-deal-permanent-austerity-permanent-stagnation

[CB Saint]

Here come the olive branches from Europe. After securing favourable headlines for their respective electorates, the Europeans get about the business of ensuring that our net contribution doesn't go walkies.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16177674

[hypochondriac]

Here come the olive branches from Europe. After securing favourable headlines for their respective electorates, the Europeans get about the business of ensuring that our net contribution doesn't go walkies.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16177674

 

Perfectly played Cameron. Boris was right. Blinder.

[hypochondriac]

Agree with everything until your last bit. The euro won't fail (if that's what you mean by a 'new issue'), because the Germans are at the heart of it. If southern European bits of the euro flake off, it'll be a huge shock to the system, but in all likelihood will leave the euro even stronger as the currency of more nearly harmonised economies in France Germany and the Benelux countries. Which is partly why, I'd suggest, the euro is still trading so strongly against the pound despite the profound crises in Greece, Portugal, Italy, etc. Slough off the bad boys and hey presto - you have a currency that looks a world beater. Eventually.

 

Mrs Merkel was speaking after the euro fell below $1.30 and £0.84 - an 11-month low - amid continuing fears over the eurozone's future.

 

Cough.

[trousers]

 

Charming....

[hypochondriac]

 

Charming....

 

I expected a better quality of communication from you trousers...

[pap]

Here come the olive branches from Europe. After securing favourable headlines for their respective electorates, the Europeans get about the business of ensuring that our net contribution doesn't go walkies.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16177674

 

Quite right, too. The level of criticism we've received from our EU partners for not signing off on their crap plan has been massive, particularly from the French ( Sarkozy still going on about it ).

 

For all the bluster, they'd be fecked without us.

[trousers]

I expected a better quality of communication from you trousers...

 

That wasn't in response to your post sir. That photo just caught my eye on the BBC home page!

[dune]

That may be the case, but the way GM, alpine and dune responded was inappropriate IMO. But that's just one of the reasons people have little respect for their opinions, because they don't show it to others. Shame because there were some good posts in this thread, and then it gets brought crashing down by posts like theirs.

 

It is MY thread.

 

I can't help it if MY threads are always the most popular threads.

[pap]

It is MY thread.

 

I can't help it if MY threads are always the most popular threads.

 

You can, actually. You can stop posting on them

[alpine_saint]

Here come the olive branches from Europe. After securing favourable headlines for their respective electorates, the Europeans get about the business of ensuring that our net contribution doesn't go walkies.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16177674

 

Which just demonstrates what a bunch of f*ckwits are in the Labour and LibDem parties, both quick to condemn, yet both unwilling to say they would have signed.

 

British politics became a one-horse race today. And to think I was a lifelong Labour voter...

[Verbal]

Cough.

 

Someone grab something of yours?

 

The point I was trying to make is that surely the euro should be in the toilet by now, after months and months of eurozone crisis. The fact is that it IS still trading so strongly, despite everything that's gone on within the zone.

[alpine_saint]

Quite right, too. The level of criticism we've received from our EU partners for not signing off on their crap plan has been massive, particularly from the French ( Sarkozy still going on about it ).

 

For all the bluster, they'd be fecked without us.

 

Sarkosy is only playing to the domestic electorate. He must be. Even he aint that thick.

[alpine_saint]

Someone grab something of yours?

 

The point I was trying to make is that surely the euro should be in the toilet by now, after months and months of eurozone crisis. The fact is that it IS still trading so strongly, despite everything that's gone on within the zone.

 

Oh, wake up and tune into Reality FM, FFS !!! The only reason the Euro still exists is because the pound and the dollar have both been managed ineptly too !

 

Deal with it, the Euro is f**ked.

[Verbal]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2073968/Britain-needs-plan-Great-Escape-Europe.html

 

Britain needs to plan its Great Escape from Europe

 

By Janice Atkinson-small

 

Last updated at 11:03 AM on 14th December 2011

 

Britain is in course for The Great Escape. That’s leaving the EU. Cracks are becoming evident in the plan to save the euro, the markets are wising up to it and the non-existent bailout plan is doomed. We can now save ourselves and our financial markets.

 

Last week’s summit was supposed to restructure the euro to avert 'disorderly collapse', and it failed. The euro states cannot even win German agreement to monetary easing or the flotation of emergency eurobonds.

 

Nothing has been done to rescue the euro, except what is always done in such crises: a move to 'ever-closer union'.

 

There is now a German-led 'unequal treaty' imposing a battery of budgetary and fiscal disciplines on Greece, Italy, Spain and possibly France, in the hope of calming markets. This in turn means decisions over budgets, taxes, benefits and transfers taken away from elected national parliaments and put in the hands of ministerial councils and Brussels commissioners. This is unenforceable.

 

Already governments in Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Italy that sought outside help and austerity in return have been toppled by their electorates. The ministerial councils and commissioners may have control over those governments for the time being but, so far, not over the ballot boxes.

 

How are the markets reacting? Bond markets are already seizing up.

 

As they wait for clarity from the region’s leaders, banks and investors are simply sitting on cash.

 

Following recent data that showed a decline in Eurozone money supply, figures out yesterday proved banks are hoarding cash at the European Central Bank (ECB). Overnight deposits hit €346bn (£291bn) – the highest level since the period after Greece’s 2010 bailout.

 

Lenders have seen funding lines dry up: data provided by Dealogic shows that the market for bank paper is in deep freeze. The volume of unsecured debt sales for the second half of this year is down more than fourfold versus the €232.9bn sold in the first half.

 

Even sales of covered bonds, the most secure kind of debt, have plunged, from €177.4bn in the first half to €64.5bn in the second.

 

And banks have to pay more to issue: the three-month London interbank offered rate (Libor), a vital cost benchmark, has risen by more than a third to over one per cent this year.

 

The markets are hoping that the sticking plasters that have been applied over the past two years will work. It is in their interests as the debts that some countries have run up cannot be repaid and the creditors cannot afford to write off the debts.

 

The new treaty is not in the markets interest as it will provide for additional regulation that will mean higher capital reserve requirements for banks, and so they will be able to lend less and so that will reduce potential for growth.

 

The eurozone cannot survive, two years after the crisis began, progress remains as elusive as ever.

 

The banks and markets are playing hardball. The electorates are revolting yet the politicians continue to play to their own national politics, this is why it will not survive.

 

What should happen next for Britain is that we should start to plan for The Great Escape. We can then plan for real growth with a low tax and regulation economy; release our businesses from Brussels’ red tape and bureaucracy; repeal the Agency Workers’ Directive and save hundreds of thousands of jobs; free our financial services industry from euro regulatory controls; take back control of what remains of our fishing industry and trade with the rest of the world.

 

Oh, and Europe, because we will still buy their Mercedes, BMWs and excellent food and wine.

 

 

Has anyone run this by Dave? Because, veto aside, he sounds as strongly committed to Europe as anyone in the House - and he's certainly made it clear that the veto is not a first step to exiting the EU.

[Verbal]

Oh, wake up and tune into Reality FM, FFS !!! The only reason the Euro still exists is because the pound and the dollar have both been managed ineptly too !

 

Deal with it, the Euro is f**ked.

 

The euro, present tense, isn't screwed. It's still there, trading reasonably well given all that's happened. The euro, future tense, is likely to be stronger if the flaky economies are jettisoned from it.

 

Deal with what, by the way? Wake up to whose reality? What's with the aggression? Got stuck in your chair?

[alpine_saint]

The euro, present tense, isn't screwed. It's still there, trading reasonably well given all that's happened. The euro, future tense, is likely to be stronger if the flaky economies are jettisoned from it.

 

Deal with what, by the way? Wake up to whose reality? What's with the aggression? Got stuck in your chair?

 

Nope, just have a problem with deluded people.

 

You really should change your moniker on here to Comical Ali.

[Minty]

Alps, you should be careful, you're edging ever closer to dune in the 'I'm right, you're wrong, la la la la la' stakes.

[Verbal]

Nope, just have a problem with deluded people.

 

You really should change your moniker on here to Comical Ali.

 

Hmm. Deluded implies some sort of mental illness. So is that how you want to progress with your argument?

[pap]

Hmm. Deluded implies some sort of mental illness. So is that how you want to progress with your argument?

 

Not really. How about you read a dictionary before offering up book suggestions?

[Verbal]

Not really. How about you read a dictionary before offering up book suggestions?

 

"A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness".

 

How is that 'not really'?

 

And books aren't all bad, you know. Agreed, compared to the internet and youtube they don't add up to squat...

[alpine_saint]

"A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness".

 

How is that 'not really'?

 

And books aren't all bad, you know. Agreed, compared to the internet and youtube they don't add up to squat...

 

That description states "especially", not "exclusively".

 

Add insufficient grasp of the English language to your list of misdemeanours...

[derry]

If we leave the EU, millions will no longer have a right to stay and would need work permits, millions will no longer be able to come in, Billions will be saved. EU imports exceed exports so tariffs wouldn't make sense. UK fishing grounds freed up, no connection to EU laws and regulations etc etc doesn't look bad to me.

[Verbal]

That description states "especially", not "exclusively".

 

Add insufficient grasp of the English language to your list of misdemeanours...

 

Why don't we get back to the thread rather than indulge your childish digressions?

 

And why don't you offer a credible explanation for the non-collapse of the euro?

[solentstars]

If we leave the EU, millions will no longer have a right to stay and would need work permits, millions will no longer be able to come in, Billions will be saved. EU imports exceed exports so tariffs wouldn't make sense. UK fishing grounds freed up, no connection to EU laws and regulations etc etc doesn't look bad to me.

and don.t forget those business who set up here for access to eu markets and who base their investment on that so they will go to,--oh if only life was that simple we would have done that long ago.

[solentstars]

Why don't we get back to the thread rather than indulge your childish digressions?

 

And why don't you offer a credible explanation for the non-collapse of the euro?

its alphine you know he only sees doom and gloom:)

[pap]

"A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness".

 

How is that 'not really'?

 

And books aren't all bad, you know. Agreed, compared to the internet and youtube they don't add up to squat...

 

Did you find the one dictionary that included the term mental illness to support your original comment?

 

People are deluded for all sorts of reasons. Religion, direct manipulation, overconfidence in one's own abilities. The list goes on. You don't have to be mentally ill to be deluded. There is no way that you can say that delusion implies mental illness.

[derry]

Or all the firms that import cars etc to the UK Vauxhall, Ford, Skoda, Seat, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Fiat, BMW, Renault, Citroen for example, the two way street would be left open. The Germans would see to that.

[solentstars]

Or all the firms that import cars etc to the UK Vauxhall, Ford, Skoda, Seat, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Fiat, BMW, Renault, Citroen for example, the two way street would be left open. The Germans would see to that.

yes but if i was a american chinese or indian multinational company choseing to site a business i think i would have to think carefully to where i would locate if the choice was the single market or outside in the uk.

[hypochondriac]

That wasn't in response to your post sir. That photo just caught my eye on the BBC home page!

 

I was joking

[um pahars]

Given discussions with the Swedes and the Irish, plus Merkel's comments, what price a U turn (or at least a partial U turn/accommodation of the treaty????)

[hypochondriac]

Given discussions with the Swedes and the Irish, plus Merkel's comments, what price a U turn (or at least a partial U turn/accommodation of the treaty????)

 

If we adopt any sort of fiscal agreement with the rest of Europe after what has happened, I will turn my back on the Tories and be disgusted by their actions. I don't think it will happen but Europe has a history of getting what it wants in the end.

[solentstars]

Given discussions with the Swedes and the Irish, plus Merkel's comments, what price a U turn (or at least a partial U turn/accommodation of the treaty????)

would not be suprised and the fact is the tories will never take us out of the eu has there paymasters would never allow it so cameron like those before him is stringing along the anti eu brigade who would be better off defecting to ukip if they believed what they say , if i hated the eu and wanted to get out i would vote ukip the only honest party to pulling out of the eu.

[View From The Top]

There is no way Cameron will take us out of the EU whilst big business wants us in.

 

Now, if he can strike a balance between the Single Market and getting back political and fiscal powers then he'll hit the jackpot.

[buctootim]

If we leave the EU, millions will no longer have a right to stay and would need work permits, millions will no longer be able to come in, Billions will be saved. EU imports exceed exports so tariffs wouldn't make sense. UK fishing grounds freed up, no connection to EU laws and regulations etc etc doesn't look bad to me.

 

Agriculture makes up 0.1% of UK GDP, fisheries 0.05%. Im all for going up against the EU if it makes sense for the UK, but not for eyecatching but destructive Charges of the Light Brigade.

[Jonnyboy]

[alpine_saint]

Given discussions with the Swedes and the Irish, plus Merkel's comments, what price a U turn (or at least a partial U turn/accommodation of the treaty????)

 

Which side are you suggesting will U-turn ?

 

Its clear to me that whatever Clegg, Cable, Hughes and Eastleigh-W*nker are doing, the Tories wont shift an inch, and the olive branches and second thoughts seem to be coming from the other 26 nations, with perhaps only France still as resolute as it was last weekend.

[saintbletch]

Perfectly played Cameron. Boris was right. Blinder.

 

I didn't think I hear myself saying this too often, but I agree with Boris too.

 

But I heard the interview with Boris on the radio and I think it's important to see a bit more of that "blinder" quote.

 

"David Cameron has played a blinder and he's done the only thing that it was really open for him to do..."

 

He's right. Cameron played a blinder - by negotiating himself into a situation where he had absolutely no allies and no other choice.

 

I'm not sure that matches my definition of playing a blinder though, but there you go.

[Frank's cousin]

Frank, it's one thing being long-winded and boring about whether Saints should play 4-4-2 and to be fair, I am like many others that don't get beyond your name on a post, but I made the mistake, this time, to see a rare event. You being concise and making a valid point. The problem is that you are reducing a century of achievement of the British empire to a sentence that pertains to be fact. Any person with a GCSE in history could see it is more complicated than that, but you seem to think that because you post it, it is a fact. A fact you hang your whole left leaning, liberal and wholly redundant political view on.

 

 

The above statement stands out as a large turd in the midst of a whole pile of boring cr @p and explains why I will never make the mistake of reading a long post from you again....

 

 

Meow! I feel your love Sweetie ;-)

 

Funny how someone who likes to portray themselves as an intellectual heavyweight spouts so much unintelligent agteesive bile ove what is obvious to anyone with no GCSEs yet a functioning brain is a tongue-in-cheek statement (the bit about 'the clap' is the clue)...

 

You forget I have acvtually met you, and rather than being the aforementioned intellectual heavy weight, you are in fact just an ordinary scroat like the rest of us... but with a rather large dose of Pious arrogant ***** thrown in for good measure... This naturally wont offend as you wont be reading this anyway.

[derry]

Isn't it that some of the inclusive countries, Sweden, Ireland for instance are now having second thoughts. The French opposition favourites to take power in April are against it. I think this arrangement will collapse like all the others. It looks like the EU don't want to stump up the rescue finance and are looking to load it onto the IMF complete with it's French boss. We should keep well out of it apart from the commitment we have already signed up to.

[Window Cleaner]

Isn't it that some of the inclusive countries, Sweden, Ireland for instance are now having second thoughts. The French opposition favourites to take power in April are against it. I think this arrangement will collapse like all the others. It looks like the EU don't want to stump up the rescue finance and are looking to load it onto the IMF complete with it's French boss. We should keep well out of it apart from the commitment we have already signed up to.

 

To be honest Derry, Hollande just doesn't know what he wants,he keeps saying he's going to do this and do that to please his Commy and Green friends and then his advisors say "Nope you can't do that François,we can't afford it".Poor bugger is all in a tizz and his advance in the polls is being frittered away every time he opens his mouth,now the Greens are going to go it alone as well.

Poor bugger is stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea just as his ex was last time round.He wasn't even supposed to be the candidate for the socialists,DSK was odds on favourite but as the UMP already had a file about 10 ft high on his whoremongering and sleaze I guess the socialist knew they would have to drop him sooner or later.No doubt his own party set him up because they knew that Sarko was just waiting for him to be pronounced official candidate before the Lille Call Girl ring and his warning from the police in the Bois de Boulogne in 2006 were used against him.

Edited 15 December, 2011 by Window Cleaner

[pap]

I didn't think I hear myself saying this too often, but I agree with Boris too.

 

But I heard the interview with Boris on the radio and I think it's important to see a bit more of that "blinder" quote.

 

I don't mind Boris. Doesn't hurt that he's wildly entertaining in interviews.

 

He's right. Cameron played a blinder - by negotiating himself into a situation where he had absolutely no allies and no other choice.

 

I'm not sure that matches my definition of playing a blinder though, but there you go.

 

Nor mine, really. Do you think Davy-boy was expecting a yes to the demands? Looked very much like he'd fecked up from his body language, etc.

 

Still, could be a happy accident.

[Verbal]

Isn't it that some of the inclusive countries, Sweden, Ireland for instance are now having second thoughts. The French opposition favourites to take power in April are against it. I think this arrangement will collapse like all the others. It looks like the EU don't want to stump up the rescue finance and are looking to load it onto the IMF complete with it's French boss. We should keep well out of it apart from the commitment we have already signed up to.

 

Sweden is not in the eurozone, and is a well-run welfare state, so it stands to lose if the EU-imposed budgetary constraints are applied. Ireland, as far as I know, is just muttering about a referendum. But yes, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the imminent victory of the Left in France. Even they won't 'veto' the financial straitjacket - just work around it the way they always have.

[trousers]

BBC Breaking News: Hungary & Czech republic WON'T give up independant taxation rights and are now doubtful to sign up to the new treaty

[Lord Duckhunter]

People like Ashdown, Huhme, and Denis MacShane are being wheeled out by the BBC to give us their views, despite being totally wrong about Britain staying out of it. It like Ian Branfoot being asked by Solent to do the saints games on radio.