Dave's Maggie Moment

[dune]

If you were in my dreams, it would have been one heck of a load of magic mushrooms.

 

no really

[Saintandy666]

Managed to catch the parliamentary session on my lunchbreak today and thought that Ed Miliband actually did alright(and I am by no means his biggest fan). Cameron looked a bit silly and clueless.

[Gingeletiss]

Managed to catch the parliamentary session on my lunchbreak today and thought that Ed Miliband actually did alright(and I am by no means his biggest fan). Cameron looked a bit silly and clueless.

 

There's a shocker..........the guy was clueless, had no answer to the PM, and if he's the best you lefties have got, then it'll be a blue few years to come.

[hypochondriac]

There's a shocker..........the guy was clueless, had no answer to the PM, and if he's the best you lefties have got, then it'll be a blue few years to come.

 

Yep. Nothing was answered by Cameron because frankly there was absolutely nothing he had to answer. Cameron looked assured and in control.

[bridge too far]

There's a shocker..........the guy was clueless, had no answer to the PM, and if he's the best you lefties have got, then it'll be a blue few years to come.

 

Funny that - since usually Dave has no answer to the questions put to him by Ed. He usually blusters and talks about stuff from 2 or 3 years ago without actually answering the points put.

 

Oh and BTW, this government isn't 'blue'. It's a rather mucky shade of orangey greeny brown.

Edited 12 December, 2011 by bridge too far

[dune]

Well I thought Ed was brilliant today. More of the same please.

 

The fact BTF is getting rattled speaks volumes.

 

Happy days.

[solentstars]

Managed to catch the parliamentary session on my lunchbreak today and thought that Ed Miliband actually did alright(and I am by no means his biggest fan). Cameron looked a bit silly and clueless.

thats because cameron is still in shock and is trying to muddle his way threw on policy trying to think what to do next ,he knows the people who tried to knife him in the back from the looney right can not be trusted has john major found out.hopefully cameron can keep the moderates in his party onside.

[Saintandy666]

There's a shocker..........the guy was clueless, had no answer to the PM, and if he's the best you lefties have got, then it'll be a blue few years to come.

 

Yer, he is ahead in the polls. The best performing of the 3 leaders at the moment is Nick Clegg, but he is kinda shoved to the background. David Cameron is alright, but he's no Blair(even Brown did better speeches than him in his heyday and was capable of doing better speeches when needed - see the citizens UK speech) and Ed Miliband is pretty awful at the moment, but occasionally does alright like today. Though of course, we shouldn't chose our leaders based on oratory skills!

[solentstars]

Funny that - since usually Dave has no answer to the questions put to him by Ed. He usually blusters and talks about stuff from 2 or 3 years ago without actually answering the points put.

 

Oh and BTW, this government isn't 'blue'. It's a rather mucky shade of orangey greeny brown.

yes thats what i thought it looked like blairism all over again and its bad when ed shows up the prime minster.

[Saintandy666]

thats because cameron is still in shock and is trying to muddle his way threw on policy trying to think what to do next ,he knows the people who tried to knife him in the back from the looney right can not be trusted has john major found out.hopefully cameron can keep the moderates in his party onside.

 

Yes, it'll be interesting to see how it goes. The Liberal Democrat backbenchers have largely cancelled out the loony right of the Tory party up to now, but I worry that might be starting to change.

[solentstars]

Yes, it'll be interesting to see how it goes. The Liberal Democrat backbenchers have largely cancelled out the loony right of the Tory party up to now, but I worry that might be starting to change.

i think thats why cameron wanted liberals with him so the looney right could not hold him ransom over europe with some of their barking mad ideas. one against 26 what a joke not even maggie used a veto.

[Saintandy666]

i think thats why cameron wanted liberals with him so the looney right could not hold him ransom over europe with some of their barking mad ideas. one against 26 what a joke not even maggie used a veto.

 

I think the real disgrace is that he didn't even bother to consult the Lib Dems/Clegg before he did it. Does he have no respect for the fact that the only reason he gets to prance around these summits as PM is BECAUSE of the Liberal Democrats. Clegg was rightly livid and if I was him, I'd demand concessions elsewhere to make up for this move away from the coalition agreement without consultation.

[dune]

Brown did better speeches than him in his heyday and was capable of doing better speeches when needed

 

You do come out with some rubbish.

[Saintandy666]

You do come out with some rubbish.

 

To be honest, oratory is opinion anyway. But back in his early days Brown had a good reputation for good speeches and he was capable of doing it even later on. He didn't rise to the top of UK politics easily. But it declined in his later years...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1545661/How-orator-Brown-lost-his-sense-of-humour.html

 

[solentstars]

I think the real disgrace is that he didn't even bother to consult the Lib Dems/Clegg before he did it. Does he have no respect for the fact that the only reason he gets to prance around these summits as PM is BECAUSE of the Liberal Democrats. Clegg was rightly livid and if I was him, I'd demand concessions elsewhere to make up for this move away from the coalition agreement without consultation.

with clegg not being by his side in the house of commons i think it showed that Britain's negotiations were played badly and i cannot imagine blair or maggie or any other prime minster walking away or using a veto in my lifetime.

[Saintandy666]

with clegg not being by his side in the house of commons i think it showed that Britain's negotiations were played badly and i cannot imagine blair or maggie or any other prime minster walking away or using a veto in my lifetime.

 

It isn't even a veto though. A veto would have stopped it. Instead, the other 26 countries are just going ahead with it regardless. Cameron changed nothing and lost precious influence and standing.

[solentstars]

It isn't even a veto though. A veto would have stopped it. Instead, the other 26 countries are just going ahead with it regardless. Cameron changed nothing and lost precious influence and standing.

agreed the funny thing they are all conservative leaders in power but cannot get on with each other .

[hypochondriac]

Blair was a good public speaker. Brown was terrible and Milliband would be a lot better if his lisp didn't distract so much. Cameron is alright but even alright is better than those three.

[hypochondriac]

It isn't even a veto though. A veto would have stopped it. Instead, the other 26 countries are just going ahead with it regardless. Cameron changed nothing and lost precious influence and standing.

 

What would you have done? There was not an alternative. Many believe that the French were deliberately unreasonable because they wanted us out. In that situation what could we have done differently?

[Saintandy666]

What would you have done? There was not an alternative. Many believe that the French were deliberately unreasonable because they wanted us out. In that situation what could we have done differently?

 

I would have bothered to build alliances the last 6 months rather than bringing out the flashman routine spouting lines to please his backbenchers, but ****ing everyone else off. He was left with no opportunity to negotiate because of his gung-ho attitude. He has utterly failed the country over the last few months.

[Saintandy666]

Blair was a good public speaker. Brown was terrible and Milliband would be a lot better if his lisp didn't distract so much. Cameron is alright but even alright is better than those three.

 

Brown had the potential to be good sometimes. I agree, Blair was good, infact I'd say he was brilliant, though good oratory does not mean good substance.

 

Do you think Clegg is a better speaker than Cameron? I've seen a Clegg speech live... it is was pretty damn good.

 

Edit: added the not!!!

[trousers]

I would have bothered to build alliances the last 6 months rather than bringing out the flashman routine spouting lines to please his backbenchers, but ****ing everyone else off. He was left with no opportunity to negotiate because of his gung-ho attitude. He has utterly failed the country over the last few months.

 

Disagree. Happy to discuss

[pap]

It isn't even a veto though. A veto would have stopped it. Instead, the other 26 countries are just going ahead with it regardless. Cameron changed nothing and lost precious influence and standing.

 

It's only really a veto if the UK actively seeks to prevent the 26 from using the instruments of the EU apparatus to implement the plan for the 26. Not really a position we'd want to be in; we'd be playing into French hands.

 

That said, numbers do not make something right. A sizable majority of Germans in the 1930s gave explicit or tacit approval to the regime that was developing at the time. I'm not making this point to link the current crop of Germans with the Nazis - it's just an example of how "popular opinion" can be massively at odds with "what's right".

 

So where do we find ourselves really?

 

We've got a PM who has said no to a European proposal and we've got 26 countries against us. Going by the numbers alone, we seem to be completely in the wrong. 26 vs 1. No argument to be had in the numbers, if you're just prepared to treat them that way.

 

Thing is, you look a little deeper and you ask a couple of questions. Would it be possible that some of the other 26 countries may have their own motives? How many of those 26 countries have real power, real influence? When it comes down to it, it amounts to about two. Previously, we might have been able to point out the likes of Spain and Italy as potential European powerhouses. No longer. Democracy has already been suspended in Italy so that it can settle its debts. Spain is not far behind.

 

Who else?

 

Germany and France, and that's about it. So really, our disagreement is with France and Germany. The Germans have to back the French if they want to keep the Euro. The French have their own reasons for wanting Britain out of the trading game ( Sarkozy has been petitioning for this since 2009).

 

I have absolutely no love for Cameron or the Conservatives. They need to make some major policy adjustments to ever be capable of attracting my vote. Regardless, this was a sh*tty deal, a sh*tty plan and honestly, there was no way we were coming out of this with a win.

 

Our options? Sign a bad deal or walk away from it. While I accept that Cameron could have potentially come away from the situation with a better result, we just don't know what the respective positions of the major players are, absent some sort of evidence.

 

Right now, the case against the UK consists of France, Germany and 24 other countries sh*t-scared of "what happens next" telling the whole world we're wrong. On the other hand, we have David Cameron telling us that he has acted in Britain's interests. My view is that there is a lot of bs from not just the UK and our European partners, but also the people in Washington.

 

Washington, Beijing et all just want it sorted. They don't want to hear anything about democratic problems or individual nation state concerns. They don't have our interests at heart and they've little interest in helping us where it won't help them.

 

Let's not get hooked up on "precious influence and standing", because really, it's just self-interest from countries who haven't quite got what they want.

[trousers]

It isn't even a veto though. A veto would have stopped it. Instead, the other 26 countries are just going ahead with it regardless. Cameron changed nothing and lost precious influence and standing.

 

The 'veto' means that the other '26 countries' can't act independently of the 'European Union' (by virtue if existing European Union law).

 

If the 'European Union' is true to itself then, by definition, the UK maintains an influential position despite the establishment of this EU sub-organisation.

 

If...

[hypochondriac]

Brown had the potential to be good sometimes. I agree, Blair was good, infact I'd say he was brilliant, though good oratory does not mean good substance.

 

Do you think Clegg is a better speaker than Cameron? I've seen a Clegg speech live... it is was pretty damn good.

 

Edit: added the not!!!

 

Yes I think clegg is the best speaker of the three though I don't rate either of the three that highly. Now Obama there is a speaker.

[dune]

Nigel Farage is the best speaker.

[scotty]

Nigel Farage is the best speaker.

 

No, but he is certainly the most amusing, which is more important than oratory. People remember what he says because of it.

[CB Saint]

Yer, he is ahead in the polls. The best performing of the 3 leaders at the moment is Nick Clegg, but he is kinda shoved to the background. David Cameron is alright, but he's no Blair(even Brown did better speeches than him in his heyday and was capable of doing better speeches when needed - see the citizens UK speech) and Ed Miliband is pretty awful at the moment, but occasionally does alright like today. Though of course, we shouldn't chose our leaders based on oratory skills!

 

Really? I think Clegg has looked indecisive and ineffective, and by not turning up at the debate, spineless

 

I think the real disgrace is that he didn't even bother to consult the Lib Dems/Clegg before he did it. Does he have no respect for the fact that the only reason he gets to prance around these summits as PM is BECAUSE of the Liberal Democrats. Clegg was rightly livid and if I was him, I'd demand concessions elsewhere to make up for this move away from the coalition agreement without consultation.

 

Then why was he publically backing the veto on Friday - http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/09/clegg-cameron-veto-eu-summit

 

As I read it Clegg agreed to the path the PM took, and then as he realised how badly he had underestimated the depth of feeling within his own party, has been backpeddling furiously ever since.

[dune]

No, but he is certainly the most amusing, which is more important than oratory. People remember what he says because of it.

 

Poor old Ed Millibean - it works the other way for him. In any walk of life nobody would want to hear his annoying voice.

[dune]

Another yougov poll just out:

 

CON 39%, LAB 40%, LDEM 10%

 

The three latest polls now show +1 Lab, Tie, +1 Lab. This is in contrast with the polls prior to DC's veto of +5 Lab, +7 Lab, +4 Lab, +6 Lab.

 

I was right all along. The right of the Tory party is the centre ground of public opinion.

 

It is essential that DC does not deviate now even if it means the Lib Dems breaking the coalition. The current tack is the path to a Tory majority govt. That said I think we need to keep the tree huggers dangling a bit longer. Spring 2012 for an election looks good to me. By that time I expect the UK economy to have surpassed predictions and shocked a few people.

Edited 13 December, 2011 by dune

[SO16_Saint]

I haven't really paid any attention to all of this as I haven't had time with my new son taking up 25 hours a day.... But I heard someone on tv saying that The Veto was not worth the paper it's written on as a Veto should mean to forbid any action taking place, in any form, whereas DC has just said 'I'm out' - and 'it' is still going ahead....

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veto

[pap]

I haven't really paid any attention to all of this as I haven't had time with my new son taking up 25 hours a day.... But I heard someone on tv saying that The Veto was not worth the paper it's written on as a Veto should mean to forbid any action taking place, in any form, whereas DC has just said 'I'm out' - and 'it' is still going ahead....

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veto

 

The veto means that technically, the 26 nations in this agreement cannot use the institutions of the EU to implement and enforce the current plans.

 

The rumblings from our EU partners is that they will seek ways to use these institutions regardless.

 

As I said in an earlier post, it's only really a veto if Britain follows this up by preventing the 26 from using EU institutions. Otherwise, it's just a news story and a lot of bad PR for us internationally.

 

Its biggest meaning is probably symbolic.

[CB Saint]

Not like the EU, changing the rules to suit their purpose

[dune]

Its biggest meaning is probably symbolic.

 

It sent out a message. We don't bluff.

 

We are Great Britain, We do what we say.

 

Now in the case of the little Frenchman this confrontation plays well for him with an election coming up in 2015 and with him 15 points behind in the polls, but for Angela Merkel it is different. She really wants us on side. She needs us on side. Along with the Scandinavians, we are all of the Germanic race. This may seem an old fashioned categorisation, but if you discount the bleatings of the Liberal Elite, and instead look at the reality, you will see that as a race of people we are profoundly different to those of Latin Europe.

 

People are talking about OUR isolation, but make no mistake - David Cameron's stance has isolated Germany more. It is for this reason that DC's tough stance will imho reap it's rewards and I fully expect our demands to be met in due course. Merkel will see to that. She is no fool.

 

If DC holds his nerve (and upsets a few wishy washy Liberals) he will ultimately be victorious at both a national and a european level.

Edited 13 December, 2011 by dune

[solentstars]

It sent out a message. We don't bluff.

 

We are Great Britain, We do what we say.

 

Now in the case of the little Frenchman this confrontation plays well for him with an election coming up in 2015 and with him 15 points behind in the polls, but for Angela Merkel it is different. She really wants us on side. She needs us on side. Along with the Scandinavians, we are all of the Germanic race. This may seem an old fashioned categorisation, but if you discount the bleatings of the Liberal Elite, and instead look at the reality, you will see that as a race of people we are profoundly different to those of Latin Europe.

 

People are talking about OUR isolation, but make no mistake - David Cameron's stance has isolated Germany more. It is for this reason that DC's tough stance will imho reap it's rewards and I fully expect our demands to be met in due course. Merkel will see to that. She is no fool.

 

If DC holds his nerve (and upsets a few wishy washy Liberals) he will ultimately be victorious at both a national and a european level.[/quotei though you would have finished your dads army dvds by now.which one do you model yourself on Godfrey or pike.

 

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[dune]

Kate Hoey (Lab, Vauxhall) said that ‘the majority of Labour voters support what the Prime Minister has done’.

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073313/Nick-Clegg-Greta-Garbo---I-vant-alone.html#ixzz1gP0cBOsQ

 

I don't think many on here would disagree with Kate.

[badgerx16]

Dunce, your eugenic claptrap is outdated and manifestly inaccurate. "We are all of the Germanic race'" - no, we are all of the Human Race. The rest is all collective tribal fantasy history.

[dune]

Dunce, your eugenic claptrap is outdated and manifestly inaccurate. "We are all of the Germanic race'" - no, we are all of the Human Race. The rest is all collective tribal fantasy history.

 

Very predictable.

 

You and your comrades hate the truth.

 

Thankfully the Liberal Elite dogma is a tired and outdated concept. People are wise to it now. It doesn't work any more.

 

It is OUR time now. Move aside and accept your fate.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6MYLtqL9T8

Edited 13 December, 2011 by dune

[ecuk268]

with clegg not being by his side in the house of commons i think it showed that Britain's negotiations were played badly and i cannot imagine blair or maggie or any other prime minster walking away or using a veto in my lifetime.

 

One of Thatchers sayings was "No matter what the disagreements, always keep a seat at the table".

[dune]

"Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope."

 

Margaret Thatcher.

 

I think these profound words echo the feeling of the great British public thanks to David Cameron's stance.

 

Finally after 13 dark years of Labour we are back. You can now be proud to British once more.

[badgerx16]

"where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope."

 

margaret thatcher.

 

 

epic fail !

[dune]

epic fail !

 

I notice that you, and the other poor misguided lefties, have nothing to say about Kate Hoeys comments.

 

It must really hurt to have one of your own speaking the truth.

 

Bless.

[badgerx16]

I notice that you, and the other poor misguided lefties, have nothing to say about Kate Hoeys comments.

 

It must really hurt to have one of your own speaking the truth.

 

Bless.

 

The thing is sweetie pie, I am reserving judgement on the basis that nobody knows what it is the Dave has actually achieved. We don't know what his 'demands' were, although they were probably specifically designed to **** Sarkastic off, we have no way of knowing what the terms thrown back at him were - other than his telling us they were 'not in our interests', and without the gift of foresight, nobody knows what the 26 might now draw up, nor what the consequences for either side might be. We are all dancing in the dark, and can't even be sure what the damned tune is.

 

Although the press are crowing over this 'victory', more and more 'experts' are seeming to question whether this action was a good or bad idea. As my wife says, the silence of the CBI is deafening.

[dune]

The thing is sweetie pie, I am reserving judgement on the basis that nobody knows what it is the Dave has actually achieved. We don't know what his 'demands' were, although they were probably specifically designed to **** Sarkastic off, we have no way of knowing what the terms thrown back at him were - other than his telling us they were 'not in our interests', and without the gift of foresight, nobody knows what the 26 might now draw up, nor what the consequences for either side might be. We are all dancing in the dark, and can't even be sure what the damned tune is.

 

Although the press are crowing over this 'victory', more and more 'experts' are seeming to question whether this action was a good or bad idea. As my wife says, the silence of the CBI is deafening.

 

Bless. Comrade Badger can't bring himself comment on what the brilliant Kate Hoey said.

[scotty]

Poor old Ed Millibean - it works the other way for him. In any walk of life nobody would want to hear his annoying voice.

 

Milibean isnt amusing though, he's just a prat.

[Whitey Grandad]

"Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope."

 

Margaret Thatcher.

 

I think these profound words echo the feeling of the great British public thanks to David Cameron's stance.

 

Finally after 13 dark years of Labour we are back. You can now be proud to British once more.

 

Actually she was quoting someone else, usually attributed to St. Francis of Assisi.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_Saint_Francis

[Whitey Grandad]

The thing is sweetie pie, I am reserving judgement on the basis that nobody knows what it is the Dave has actually achieved. We don't know what his 'demands' were, although they were probably specifically designed to **** Sarkastic off, we have no way of knowing what the terms thrown back at him were - other than his telling us they were 'not in our interests', and without the gift of foresight, nobody knows what the 26 might now draw up, nor what the consequences for either side might be. We are all dancing in the dark, and can't even be sure what the damned tune is.

 

Although the press are crowing over this 'victory', more and more 'experts' are seeming to question whether this action was a good or bad idea. As my wife says, the silence of the CBI is deafening.

 

Quite right. As a manufacturer and exporter I must admit that it scares the willies out of me.

[badgerx16]

Bless. Comrade Badger can't bring himself comment on what the brilliant Kate Hoey said.

 

You want a comment, OK - Kate Hoey is being a typical opportunist politician, one who has always been classed as strongly eurosceptic. To quote the Telegraph '"The only predictable thing about Kate Hoey is that she is relentlessly unpredictable".

[dune]

Actually she was quoting someone else, usually attributed to St. Francis of Assisi.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_Saint_Francis

 

Yep.

[dune]

You want a comment, OK - Kate Hoey is being a typical opportunist politician, one who has always been classed as strongly eurosceptic. To quote the Telegraph '"The only predictable thing about Kate Hoey is that she is relentlessly unpredictable".

 

And she is pro country pursuits. I think she's great.