Burrows uses Bradford, Hillsborough and Ibrox disasters to justify bubble

[stevegrant]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/features/newsreview/9402439.Are_police_plans_for_Saints_vs_Pompey_match_going_too_far_/

 

As the thread title suggests, our celebrity Superintendent Rick Burrows has used the disasters at Valley Parade, Hillsborough and Ibrox in the 80s as justification for sticking us on an enforced convoy of second-hand double-decker buses.

 

Something of a PR own-goal, I'd say

[Pancake]

Love this Steve:

 

"All of the likely routes into Portsmouth provide plenty of ambush points, which means a convoy of 50-odd coaches will simply be sitting ducks waiting to be fired upon with whatever the locals can gather."

 

I can only imaging a wagon train being forced to form a circle after an surprise Native American attack...

[Um Bongo]

We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel.

 

That's the quote, for those who can't be bothered to click the link.

[iansums]

Just 28 years old eh Steve? Your avatar makes you look older!

[JRM]

if the lady from the FSF is still around looking into the use of the bubble and the justification for it this article will be a very good one to provide for her, and shows Mr Burrows up for being completely out of touch and ill informed, i wonder how the relatives of the deceased of Hillsborough and Bradford like the use of their cases being used to justify a bubble coach trip?

[Sour Mash]

Would be terrible if that article found its way onto a few Liverpool and Bradford forums, maybe the FSF as well.

[Toomer]

What if one of the buses break down half way down the Eastern Road which could happen.

[yorkie]

They all get out a push Pete!

[Saint_Jonny]

What if one of the buses break down half way down the Eastern Road which could happen.

 

Then we'd get pelted with whatever the pikeys could find. Would probably be quite funny.

[stevegrant]

Would be terrible if that article found its way onto a few Liverpool and Bradford forums, maybe the FSF as well.

FSF are already aware

[shurlock]

A total non story.

 

The majority of the article is about specific circumstances justifying the bubble as they relate to previous Southampton and Portsmouth fixtures - none of us have the intel, the cost-benefit calculations, a sense of the wider political pressures to say whether the bubble is justified. There are few lines on Hillsborough - and that's only to say that sh*t can happen at the football -they're unimaginative and cliche at worst. More importantly, the article makes no link whatsoever between football violence and Hillsborough and Bradford as some imply.

 

Im no fan of the OB but this is a total red herring and the OP looks like a mug for jumping on it as further evidence that we're somehow the victims of some injustice. Man the f**k up -and if you want to discredit the OB's case, do some proper homework.

[Saints foreva]

Anyone get the feeling that the "bubble" idea will be ditched for when they come to St. Mary's?

[This Charming Man]

A total non story.

 

The majority of the article is about specific circumstances justifying the bubble as they relate to previous Southampton and Portsmouth fixtures - none of us have the intel, the cost-benefit calculations, a sense of the wider political pressures to say whether the bubble is justified. There are few lines on Hillsborough - and that's only to say that sh*t can happen at the football -they're unimaginative and cliche at worst. More importantly, the article makes no link whatsoever between football violence and Hillsborough and Bradford as some imply.

 

Im no fan of the OB but this is a total red herring and the OP looks like a mug for jumping on it as further evidence that we're somehow the victims of some injustice. Man the f**k up -and if you want to discredit the OB's case, do some proper homework.

 

Are you blind? There is a direct quote from him claiming that the tragedies at Hillsborough and Bradford were caused because of football violence.

[JRM]

A total non story.

 

The majority of the article is about specific circumstances justifying the bubble as they relate to previous Southampton and Portsmouth fixtures - none of us have the intel, the cost-benefit calculations, a sense of the wider political pressures to say whether the bubble is justified. There are few lines on Hillsborough - and that's only to say that sh*t can happen at the football -they're unimaginative and cliche at worst. More importantly, the article makes no link whatsoever between football violence and Hillsborough and Bradford as some imply.

 

Im no fan of the OB but this is a total red herring and the OP looks like a mug for jumping on it as further evidence that we're somehow the victims of some injustice. Man the f**k up -and if you want to discredit the OB's case, do some proper homework.

 

 

Wrong mr Shurlock, with a name like yours are you sure you are not a fan of the OB?

 

when Mr Burrows wrote his piece justifying the use of a bubble coach trip why put "We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel."

 

what possible reason does he have for mentioning the fire in Bradford that killed fan in connection with his decision making?

 

i suggest it is he who needs avoid being alarmist and is bringing cases that did not involve football violence into his arguement he shows himself to be ill informed.

[shurlock]

Are you blind? There is a direct quote from him claiming that the tragedies at Hillsborough and Bradford were caused because of football violence.

 

"We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel".

 

Grammatically, they're separate clauses - only Heysel is mentioned in the context of football violence.

[Toomer]

They all get out a push Pete!

 

What with my bloody ticker Bob!

[Pancake]

Are you blind? There is a direct quote from him claiming that the tragedies at Hillsborough and Bradford were caused because of football violence.

 

Sorry, it doesnt.

 

"We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel. "

 

HTH.

[Sour Mash]

A total non story.

 

The majority of the article is about specific circumstances justifying the bubble as they relate to previous Southampton and Portsmouth fixtures - none of us have the intel, the cost-benefit calculations, a sense of the wider political pressures to say whether the bubble is justified. There are few lines on Hillsborough - and that's only to say that sh*t can happen at the football -they're unimaginative and cliche at worst. More importantly, the article makes no link whatsoever between football violence and Hillsborough and Bradford as some imply.

 

Im no fan of the OB but this is a total red herring and the OP looks like a mug for jumping on it as further evidence that we're somehow the victims of some injustice. Man the f**k up -and if you want to discredit the OB's case, do some proper homework.

I can't take anyone seriously when they use phrases like "man up". Go back to doing 1000 word match reports. Burrows has brought up those tragedies for no good reason whatsoever.

[channonball]

Why mention them then, unless you are trying to create the link?

[JRM]

Sorry, it doesnt.

 

"We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel. "

 

HTH.

 

so why does he mention the Bradford and Hillsborough disasters? i think they are in very bad taste, and in no way support his arguement for his bubble, he implies there is a link between football violence and disasters having mentioned two which have no link.

[Turkish]

Sorry, it doesnt.

 

"We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel. "

 

HTH.

 

He's still using tragedies like these to justify his decisions. It's pretty vile taste to be honest.

Edited 5 December, 2011 by Turkish

[Sour Mash]

Sorry, it doesnt.

 

"We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel. "

 

HTH.

So tell us the relevance of Hillsborough and Bradford to our bubble trip please?

[This Charming Man]

Sorry, it doesnt.

 

"We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel. "

 

HTH.

 

He is quite clearly using those tragedies as justification for the bubble trip and for him to do so, he is implying that football violence was involved. Otherwise what relevance would they have to the point he is trying to make?

[70's Mike]

Love this Steve:

 

"All of the likely routes into Portsmouth provide plenty of ambush points, which means a convoy of 50-odd coaches will simply be sitting ducks waiting to be fired upon with whatever the locals can gather."

 

I can only imaging a wagon train being forced to form a circle after an surprise Native American attack...

 

and double decked buses won't

every time pc burrows opens his mouth i wonder what my cponcil tax to Hampshire Council is paying for

no doubt he and his senior officers will not be travelling by bus

[70's Mike]

He's still using tradegies like these to justify his decisions. It's pretty vile taste to be honest.

 

Agreed

[Pancake]

He's still using tradegies like these to justify his decisions. It's pretty vile taste to be honest.

 

Agreed

 

So tell us the relevance of Hillsborough and Bradford to our bubble trip please?

 

I didnt write the article.

 

He is quite clearly using those tragedies as justification for the bubble trip and for him to do so, he is implying that football violence was involved. Otherwise what relevance would they have to the point he is trying to make?

 

As I said, I agree he is using them as an excuse for the bubble, which is wrong on many levels. What he isnt doing though is linking those events to hooliganism - which is what you were accusing him of.

[trousers]

More importantly, the article makes no link whatsoever between football violence and Hillsborough and Bradford as some imply.

 

I've just read the article and I must admit this was my initial feeling. I could be reading between the lines incorrectly but I actually think he mentioned Hillsborough (in particular) as an acknowledgement that the police were found to be guilty in not taking enough proactive action to prevent the sad events that occurred and that, by contrast, the bubble idea (whether people think it'll work or not) is at least a sign that the police are acting proactively (Yes, completely different cicumstances but I don't think he was comparing them per se)

 

Perhaps I'm giving too much benefit of the doubt there but I didn't read it as a direct justification for using the bubble but more of a way of highlighting that "doing nothing" from a policing perspective can cause problems in its own right.

 

You can just imagine the uproar on here if there was no bubble in place and Saints fans got attacked..."Why the hell didn;t the police anticipate this and do something to prevent it?"

 

But, all that said, yes, I can also see how using these disasters in an article like this can come across as tasteless and inflamatory.

Edited 5 December, 2011 by trousers

[Badger]

Love this Steve:

 

"All of the likely routes into Portsmouth provide plenty of ambush points, which means a convoy of 50-odd coaches will simply be sitting ducks waiting to be fired upon with whatever the locals can gather."

 

I can only imaging a wagon train being forced to form a circle after an surprise Native American attack...

 

Guilty of promoting "apache-phobia" .Mods, three year ban required.

[shurlock]

I can't take anyone seriously when they use phrases like "man up". Go back to doing 1000 word match reports. Burrows has brought up those tragedies for no good reason whatsoever.

 

Everyone's a victim of this, that or the other.

 

Pick your battles - in this case, they're bigger and better ones. Would prefer some transparency about the specific facts justifying the bubble, not getting distracted by a few parroted lines by some copper on auto-pilot.

[Turkish]

I've just read the article and I must admit this was my initial feeling. I could be reading between the lines incorrectly but I actually think he mentioned Hillsborough (in particular) as an acknowledgement that the police were found to be guilty in not taking enough proactive action to prevent the sad events that occurred and that by, by contrast, the bubble idea (whether people think it'll work or not) is at least a sign that the police are actinbg proactively.

 

Perhaps I'm giving too much benefit of the doubt there but I didn't read it as a direct justification for using the bubble but more of a way of highlighting that "doing nothing" from a policing perspective can cause problems in its own right.

 

You can just imagine the uproar on here if there was no bubble in place and Saints fans got attacked..."Why the hell didn;t the police anticipate this and do something to prevent it?"

 

But, all that said, yes, I can also see how using these disasters in an article like this can come across as tasteless and inflamatory.

 

Here is the quote

 

"We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel."

 

He is clearly linking the two and using them to justify his decsion. Which is pretty shameful.

[JRM]

by some copper on auto-pilot.

 

have a watch of this video then tell us what is has to do with Burrows plan for a bubble

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11UP99uHMuI

[Toomer]

Anyone get the feeling that the "bubble" idea will be ditched for when they come to St. Mary's?

 

If they do have a bubble that dirty git Westwood will have a bus to himself!!!!!!!!!

[trousers]

Here is the quote

 

"We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel."

 

He is clearly linking the two.

 

Yes, he's linking the two, but I think there's a possibility he's trying to actually highlight how the police can get things wrong by inaction, whether it be at a football ground, at protest marches, etc"

 

As I say, perhaps I shouldn't be giving this level of benefit-of-the-doubt to the man.

[Turkish]

Yes, he's linking the two, but I think there's a possibility he's trying to actually highlight how the police can get things wrong by inaction, whether it be at a football ground, at protest marches, etc"

 

As I say, perhaps I shouldn't be giving this level of benefit-of-the-doubt to the man.

 

he comes across as a man who loves the limelight, i wouldn't be at all surprised if this was deliberately said to shock.

[shurlock]

have a watch of this video then tell us what is has to do with Burrows plan for a bubble

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11UP99uHMuI

 

IMO he was just making a few headline observations about how the OB have to approach football culture from a fundamentally different perspective from your average fan, namely safety and security and these considerations have to inform their decision-making at every step, even when they appear OTT. It hey aren't on the ball, tragedy can ensue and they carry the can.

 

Its a general point about the priorities of the OB, not football violence.

[JRM]

IMO he was just making a few headline observations about how the OB have to approach football culture from a fundamentally different perspective from your average fan, namely safety and security and these considerations have to inform their decision-making at every step, even when they appear OTT. It hey aren't on the ball, tragedy can ensue and they carry the can.

 

Its a general point about the priorities of the OB, not football violence.

 

personally, for him to follow up mentioning Bradford and Hillsborough with "too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy" he is bringing the two subjects together.

[Turkish]

personally, for him to follow up mentioning Bradford and Hillsborough with "too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy" he is bringing the two subjects together.

 

This was how i read it as well.

[Minty]

Yes, he's linking the two, but I think there's a possibility he's trying to actually highlight how the police can get things wrong by inaction, whether it be at a football ground, at protest marches, etc"

 

As I say, perhaps I shouldn't be giving this level of benefit-of-the-doubt to the man.

I think that's a fair point, and if you ignore who is saying it, I'm sure most fair-minded people would accept this as a possible explanation for his words. I think any mention of such tragedies has to be done very carefully and I wouldn't have done so, but I am pretty sure he's not meaning to say that violence was to blame for them... that would be incredibly crass and inappropriate.

 

Sad fact of the matter is that in this day and age the Police are criticised from all sides, for things they do and things they don't do. The IPCC are called in seemingly every day to yet another incident because of allegations made in hindsight about a split second decision taken in good faith, or a perceived LACK of action by the Police, and as trousers alludes, I think in this case these preventative measures have been deemed necessary because of this increasing culture. And not necessarily because of Saints fans either... as we saw last time, Pompey like to kick off even amongst themselves!

 

It's not right that law-abiding fans should have to go through this process, but sadly, a combination of factors and an increasing nervousness from the police mean I'm really not surprised that it is.

[Turkish]

Hillsborough = Police primarily to blame bad ticketing and overcrowding.

 

Bradford - A fire that could of happened anywhere in wooden stands that where the norm in football grounds.

 

Heysel - Allsorts to blame

 

Ibrox - Fans leaving en masse and crush from stairwell which again i cant seen related to 'trouble'.

 

I really cannot see the justification in mentioning any of those disasters. Unless your are doing so for PR scare tactics.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Whether or not Burrows was linking Hillsborough and Bradford to hooliganism (I think his words were clumsy rather than deliberate) it still beggars the question: what the **** have they got to do with a bubble?

[shurlock]

personally, for him to follow up mentioning Bradford and Hillsborough with "too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy" he is bringing the two subjects together.

 

Technically, the 'and' meant they were separate clauses -and so only Heysel was mentioned in reference to football violence. The two statements were illustrations of why the the OB as a whole needs to be proactive and necessarily has different priorities to fans.

 

Either way, Burrows doesn't come across as the sharpest tool in the box -part of an elite that can't talk straight or entertain an original thought; but dutifully parrots cliches that make it impossible to have a proper conversation and just numb you into apathy.

Edited 5 December, 2011 by shurlock

[Turkish]

Whether or not Burrows was linking Hillsborough and Bradford to hooliganism (I think his words were clumsy rather than deliberate) it still beggars the question: what the **** have they got to do with a bubble?

 

Scare tactics. Very bad taste.

[JRM]

Scare tactics. Very bad taste.

 

he is letting the fans know, "if you don't let me look after you in my bubble, look what could happen to you? you might die like one of those fans, and you don't want that do you? so support my bubble"

[Saint Lindford]

Here is the quote

 

"We all too quickly forget the events of Hillsborough, Bradford and Stairway 13 and too readily deny the link between football violence and tragedy, as seen at Heysel."

 

He is clearly linking the two and using them to justify his decsion. Which is pretty shameful.

 

No he is not. The link to football violence is with Heysel and NOT to the other tragedies. He is wrong to use the other disasters in this context IMHO but everyone is jumping on a bandwagon that is not there.

[Window Cleaner]

so support my bubble"

 

was there a choice ??

 

You just cannot make people accept to be herded into buses against their will,everybody wants to do their own thing and choose who they travel with,what they listen to,whether they smoke or not. It's modern society and if we didn't sell out it's because of this stupid bubble bus nonsense.

[Turkish]

No he is not. The link to football violence is with Heysel and NOT to the other tragedies. He is wrong to use the other disasters in this context IMHO but everyone is jumping on a bandwagon that is not there.

 

Why is there any need to mention them? What have any of them got to do with getting fans to and from a game safely? All these things happened inside a stadium. Unless he is linking them to football violence then why is there any need to bring them up? Its nothing to do with the bubble.

 

And it is in very bad taste that he would use these disasters to justify the decision. Regardless of if he ment to link them to football violence or not.

[trousers]

Why is there any need to mention them?

 

Because, he might be trying to highlight example of what happens when the police fail in their duties?

 

Turning this on its head for a moment, if you were a policeman and wanted to highlight the past failings of the police force at sporting events, what examples would you likely come up with?

 

I think we're all agreeing that the article comes across as clumsy but we don't know for sure the precise point he was trying to make. There is more than one valid interpretation here.

[Turkish]

Because, he might be trying to highlight example of what happens when the police fail in their duties?

 

Turning this on its head for a moment, if you were a policeman and wanted to highlight the past failings of the police force at sporting events, what examples would you likely come up with?

 

I think we're all agreeing that the article comes across as clumsy but we don't know for sure the precise point he was trying to make. There is more than one valid interpretation here.

 

Like he did when the police *****ed up in Feb 2009 letting them out at the same time?

 

How was Bradford a police failing? How was Ibrox?

 

This is blatently a PR exercise to scare people into supporting his bubble. It is extremely bad taste to mention 150 people plus dying in disasters as a way of justifying a decision made by local police.

[shurlock]

Why is there any need to mention them? What have any of them got to do with getting fans to and from a game safely? All these things happened inside a stadium. Unless he is linking them to football violence then why is there any need to bring them up? Its nothing to do with the bubble.

 

And it is in very bad taste that he would use these disasters to justify the decision. Regardless of if he ment to link them to football violence or not.

 

Dont think he's doing that - more likely, he's just condescending you reader/fan and reminding you how jolly hard it is to police a football game-from ensuring that you don't become proverbial sardines to reducing any aggro between fans- and that you simple f**kwit of a reader/fan has no idea of all the contingency measures in place which you ungrateful f**kwit of a reader/fan interpret as restrictive but which is absolutely necessary to having a nice day out at the beautiful game. So sit down, be cooperative and politely listen to those who are in the know and are ultimately responsible for your sorry freedom.

[LGTL]

Dont think he's doing that - more likely, he's just condescending you reader/fan and reminding you how jolly hard it is to police a football game-from ensuring that you don't become proverbial sardines to reducing any aggro between fans- and that you simple f**kwit of a reader/fan has no idea of all the contingency measures in place which you ungrateful f**kwit of a reader/fan interpret as restrictive but which is absolutely necessary to having a nice day out at the beautiful game. So sit down, be cooperative and politely listen to those who are in the know and are ultimately responsible for your sorry freedom.

 

Thanks for that Mr Burrows.

 

Oh and I assume you mean the freedom of sitting on a bus and being herded here there and everywhere all day??