Euro

[pap]

I can't see Europe going to war with itself(the next war if any would be a Europe allied vs. someone else. Iran is the one to watch). The EU has kept peacetime well and improved relations massively.

 

Not sure that it really matters whether the conflict is internal or external.

 

Also, I'm not really sure you can credit the EU with the peace we've had in the EU. Remember that for 44 years after the end of the Second World War, Western Europe wasn't allowed to fail. The US pumped money in ( through Marshall Aid, corporate relocation, etc ) as a bulwark against communism.

 

Whatever. The EU is about to become something else, and is already a far cry from what we signed up for. While I think there's an element of truth to what you've said historically, the EU is no longer an agent for peace. It wants to create a new country made up of our nation states. That doesn't sound like a recipe for peace to me; more like one for civil war.

[Saintandy666]

Not sure that it really matters whether the conflict is internal or external.

 

Also, I'm not really sure you can credit the EU with the peace we've had in the EU. Remember that for 44 years after the end of the Second World War, Western Europe wasn't allowed to fail. The US pumped money in ( through Marshall Aid, corporate relocation, etc ) as a bulwark against communism.

 

Whatever. The EU is about to become something else, and is already a far cry from what we signed up for. While I think there's an element of truth to what you've said historically, the EU is no longer an agent for peace. It wants to create a new country made up of our nation states. That doesn't sound like a recipe for peace to me; more like one for civil war.

 

Fair point well made. It probably depends on how much support it has in those states and while mainland Europe is very pro-EU, I don't have a clue how they'd react to a REAL federal Europe, beyond even what Merkel is proposing which isn't a federal Europe, just much closer integration. Events over the next couple of decades could change opinions vastly of course. I do think the EU has made us speak to each other in a way we never did before. The key is a referendum so that the people can have their say.

 

 

On a separate issue, I do think people in general are far too black and white/narrow minded on these issues. There is rarely ever one absolutely correct solution with all the rest being totally crap.

[solentstars]

Who are the loony right then?

 

I presume you mean people like Redwood & Bill Cash. People who read The Telegraph and The Mail. In other words the people who were right all along about the Euro.These were people who were against The Euro Full Stop. Against Greece, France Germany, Ireland joining a single currency. How on earth did previous PM's like Major, Blair and Brown look after our interests? Looking after our interests would have been spelling out to the nations of Europe that a single currency was unworkable, our interests would have been served by holding back our money until they abandoned the idea, of threatening to withdraw from the Eu until it was shelved. How on earth was our best interests served by smilling like happy ****ing idiots, while Greece, Ireland, Spain Italy and the like signed a death pact?. We went along with this stupid proposal, just a long as we weren't in it (although some wanted to be).

 

This has gone beyond the stage of whether the UK should have joined the Euro, it should never have been put in place in the first place. The UK's best interests were for there to have been no Euro.Only the "loony right" as you call them (with a few notable Labour supporters) were against the whole thing from day one.

 

The jury is still out on the euro and brown made sure Blair did not sign up to the euro.you forget it waS the labour party who did not want to join the ec in the 70s when the Tories were the pro euro party till Maggie saddled the party with the looney right and she took us deeper into europeon superstate.so if Maggie did not take us out its never gone to happen.its one thing hateing the ec but if your in power reality takes over.that's why the national interest comes first for all our leaders and has for the daily mail its a paper for d..ckheads so the perfect euro nutters paper.if you believe that rag.I,be got more respect for the sun and the beano.

 

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[hypochondriac]

Well, many economists would agree with me also. Economists never agree. Why don't we just get some on here and let them argue rather than us because they are the only ones with the relevant experience? Or we can just drop the you don't know what your talking about card, because quite frankly neither of us have studied the economy in enough depth and so just rely on a few simplified figures and others opinions. Sounds good to me.

 

Presumably you will stop with comments such as 'we don't want the Euro to fail' then.

[hypochondriac]

The jury is still out on the euro and brown made sure Blair did not sign up to the euro.you forget it waS the labour party who did not want to join the ec in the 70s when the Tories were the pro euro party till Maggie saddled the party with the looney right and she took us deeper into europeon superstate.so if Maggie did not take us out its never gone to happen.its one thing hateing the ec but if your in power reality takes over.that's why the national interest comes first for all our leaders and has for the daily mail its a paper for d..ckheads so the perfect euro nutters paper.if you believe that rag.I,be got more respect for the sun and the beano.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

 

WHAT?? You can't be serious, do you really believe that? Christ.

[Saintandy666]

Presumably you will stop with comments such as 'we don't want the Euro to fail' then.

 

Well, no... because this is only a debate subforum on a football forum. I don't think you should have to be overly experienced in anything before giving an opinion on it? It's only a debate forum. However, if that is your opinion which it seems to be, then maybe you should just stop contributing at all to fall in line with that!

 

Bit silly really.

[pap]

Fair point well made. It probably depends on how much support it has in those states and while mainland Europe is very pro-EU, I don't have a clue how they'd react to a REAL federal Europe, beyond even what Merkel is proposing which isn't a federal Europe, just much closer integration. Events over the next couple of decades could change opinions vastly of course. I do think the EU has made us speak to each other in a way we never did before. The key is a referendum so that the people can have their say.

 

 

On a separate issue, I do think people in general are far too black and white/narrow minded on these issues. There is rarely ever one absolutely correct solution with all the rest being totally crap.

 

Are the rest of our European brothers and sisters pro-Europe? I mean, how do we know that? Sure, we assume that someone must be in favour, and largely, it's not us - so by a process of elimination, we almost assume that your average man on your average continental street is in favour of closer EU ties.

 

Of course, there are some major problems with that assumption. First, let's look at the Euro. Every country that got the opportunity to vote on it said NO. Every country that has the currency didn't get a chance to vote on it.

 

Then, consider how this country feels about some of the pitfalls of Europe, such as the daily cost and/or border controls which are almost impossible to police. I find it difficult to believe that other advanced economies with similar problems don't feel the same way about that.

 

I'm sure there are elements within political groups that would love to see political union in Europe. I'm not sure that the people of Europe want the same thing.

[Saintandy666]

Are the rest of our European brothers and sisters pro-Europe? I mean, how do we know that? Sure, we assume that someone must be in favour, and largely, it's not us - so by a process of elimination, we almost assume that your average man on your average continental street is in favour of closer EU ties.

 

Of course, there are some major problems with that assumption. First, let's look at the Euro. Every country that got the opportunity to vote on it said NO. Every country that has the currency didn't get a chance to vote on it.

 

Then, consider how this country feels about some of the pitfalls of Europe, such as the daily cost and/or border controls which are almost impossible to police. I find it difficult to believe that other advanced economies with similar problems don't feel the same way about that.

 

I'm sure there are elements within political groups that would love to see political union in Europe. I'm not sure that the people of Europe want the same thing.

 

Would be interesting to see opinion polls on a federal Europe and what Merkel is suggesting at the moment and also just the EU in general. I'd imagine they'd get steadily more popular as the 3 positions I mentioned were moved through.

[dune]

Over 1/3 of French people want to return to the Franc.

 

http://www.expat-friendly.com/?+Over-third-of-French-want-a-return+

[solentstars]

Are the rest of our European brothers and sisters pro-Europe? I mean, how do we know that? Sure, we assume that someone must be in favour, and largely, it's not us - so by a process of elimination, we almost assume that your average man on your average continental street is in favour of closer EU ties.

 

Of course, there are some major problems with that assumption. First, let's look at the Euro. Every country that got the opportunity to vote on it said NO. Every country that has the currency didn't get a chance to vote on it.

 

Then, consider how this country feels about some of the pitfalls of Europe, such as the daily cost and/or border controls which are almost impossible to police. I find it difficult to believe that other advanced economies with similar problems don't feel the same way about that.

 

I'm sure there are elements within political groups that would love to see political union in Europe. I'm not sure that the people of Europe want the same thing.

 

I think most normal people are more worried about jobs and being ripped of by the energy companys and riseng food bills than the chattering classes about the ec

 

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[hypochondriac]

Well, no... because this is only a debate subforum on a football forum. I don't think you should have to be overly experienced in anything before giving an opinion on it? It's only a debate forum. However, if that is your opinion which it seems to be, then maybe you should just stop contributing at all to fall in line with that!

 

Bit silly really.

 

Do you understand the difference between 'I don't want the Euro to fail' and 'we' (as in the collective we) don't want it to?

[hypochondriac]

Are the rest of our European brothers and sisters pro-Europe? I mean, how do we know that? Sure, we assume that someone must be in favour, and largely, it's not us - so by a process of elimination, we almost assume that your average man on your average continental street is in favour of closer EU ties.

 

Of course, there are some major problems with that assumption. First, let's look at the Euro. Every country that got the opportunity to vote on it said NO. Every country that has the currency didn't get a chance to vote on it.

 

Then, consider how this country feels about some of the pitfalls of Europe, such as the daily cost and/or border controls which are almost impossible to police. I find it difficult to believe that other advanced economies with similar problems don't feel the same way about that.

 

I'm sure there are elements within political groups that would love to see political union in Europe. I'm not sure that the people of Europe want the same thing.

 

My Italian relatives have always been against the Europe and said that Italians in general all were. The moment it was introduced prices went up to take advantage of the fact that people had difficulty adjusting to the new prices. Apparently it has been more expensive ever since.

[pap]

I think most normal people are more worried about jobs and being ripped of by the energy companys and riseng food bills than the chattering classes about the ec

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

 

That's probably true, but do most normal people know the extent to which the EU is jamming up their lives?

 

Let's take your example of jobs. Has the EU made it easier to get a job? Nope, the EU opened up the labour market to such an extent that there is no such thing as a British job anymore. There may be jobs which are based in the UK, but they're essentially open to all EU citizens.

 

Now let's look at food. Well, the EU's common agricultural policy ( mandatory for anyone in the internal market ) has historically had the effect of raising food prices by placing high import tariffs on food from outside the EU. Interestingly, we can also tied the CAP into our energy companies, who benefit from CAP subsidies.

 

The point I'm trying to make, and one that I think has been missed, is that the EU is responsible for a lot of the things that people worry about day-to-day, sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly.

 

If people are worried about jobs and food prices, they should be worried about the EU.

[Saintandy666]

Do you understand the difference between 'I don't want the Euro to fail' and 'we' (as in the collective we) don't want it to?

 

Yes, yes I do.

[pap]

My Italian relatives have always been against the Europe and said that Italians in general all were. The moment it was introduced prices went up to take advantage of the fact that people had difficulty adjusting to the new prices. Apparently it has been more expensive ever since.

 

I hear similar accounts from all over the continent.

 

Spain was ruined the day they joined the Euro. I remember going over in 1994 with very little money ( basically the proceeds of my then Asda job ) and living like a king on pesetas. Massively different under the Euro.

[hypochondriac]

Yes, yes I do.

 

Well hopefully you will not use the latter in future and risk putting words in other people's mouths.

[Thedelldays]

The euro in the current form is dead

 

Germany will reign over Europe soon enough. France will be by her side and we will either be told to join up or pish off.

 

Either way, after 100 years of trying. Germany will finally be the masters of Europe. As they have historically craved

 

So my cynical side tells me

[hypochondriac]

The euro in the current form is dead

 

Germany will reign over Europe soon enough. France will be by her side and we will either be told to join up or pish off.

 

Either way, after 100 years of trying. Germany will finally be the masters of Europe. As they have historically craved

 

So my realistic side tells me

 

Changed it for you.

[CB Saint]

I speak to a large number of Greeks both professionally and personally. Discounting the obvious antipathy that they have towards the Euro as a result of recent events, most have been fairly anti euro. For the average man in the street the only real difference they have noticed is the cost of living has risen dramatically. Overall the general felling was that they rather have kept the drachma. They are massively frightened about their future. If they stay in, they will be facing years of no growth whilst they come to grips with their debt issues with Germany callling all of the shots (you only have to wind the clock back to the 1940's to understand why most Greeks find the thought of having to kowtow to the germans so distasteful). If they crash out or are thrown out, they face a future that no one can predict.

[hypochondriac]

I speak to a large number of Greeks both professionally and personally. Discounting the obvious antipathy that they have towards the Euro as a result of recent events, most have been fairly anti euro. For the average man in the street the only real difference they have noticed is the cost of living has risen dramatically. Overall the general felling was that they rather have kept the drachma. They are massively frightened about their future. If they stay in, they will be facing years of no growth whilst they come to grips with their debt issues with Germany callling all of the shots (you only have to wind the clock back to the 1940's to understand why most Greeks find the thought of having to kowtow to the germans so distasteful). If they crash out or are thrown out, they face a future that no one can predict.

 

So exactly the same as the Italians then. I imagine that other countries are very similar and yet people consider the Euro is needed.

Edited 6 December, 2011 by hypochondriac

[pap]

I speak to a large number of Greeks both professionally and personally. Discounting the obvious antipathy that they have towards the Euro as a result of recent events, most have been fairly anti euro. For the average man in the street the only real difference they have noticed is the cost of living has risen dramatically. Overall the general felling was that they rather have kept the drachma. They are massively frightened about their future. If they stay in, they will be facing years of no growth whilst they come to grips with their debt issues with Germany callling all of the shots (you only have to wind the clock back to the 1940's to understand why most Greeks find the thought of having to kowtow to the germans so distasteful). If they crash out or are thrown out, they face a future that no one can predict.

 

Partially true, but the Chinese are already well in there - I'd see that trend continuing, more so if the Greeks are turfed out.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The jury is still out on the euro and brown made sure Blair did not sign up to the euro.you forget it waS the labour party who did not want to join the ec in the 70s when the Tories were the pro euro party till Maggie saddled the party with the looney right and she took us deeper into europeon superstate.so if Maggie did not take us out its never gone to happen.its one thing hateing the ec but if your in power reality takes over.that's why the national interest comes first for all our leaders and has for the daily mail its a paper for d..ckheads so the perfect euro nutters paper.if you believe that rag.I,be got more respect for the sun and the beano.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

 

You've got to laugh at someone who complains that Mail readers are d..ckheads and then in the same post writes "the jury is still out on the Euro". Even Jacques Delores has said it was "doomed to failure", perhaps he's a rabid right wing Mail reader.

 

The Euro nutters you speak of are surely the people that went ahead and rammed the Euro through and threatened the World's economy?

 

Brown was for the Euro in principle, it was just the timing he objected to. The people who were proved right were the people who were opposed to it in principle. Were against it, full stop. Not the people who supported it for Europe and supported The UK's entry when the cycle was right. They were wrong and have been proved wrong.

[solentstars]

I speak to a large number of Greeks both professionally and personally. Discounting the obvious antipathy that they have towards the Euro as a result of recent events, most have been fairly anti euro. For the average man in the street the only real difference they have noticed is the cost of living has risen dramatically. Overall the general felling was that they rather have kept the drachma. They are massively frightened about their future. If they stay in, they will be facing years of no growth whilst they come to grips with their debt issues with Germany callling all of the shots (you only have to wind the clock back to the 1940's to understand why most Greeks find the thought of having to kowtow to the germans so distasteful). If they crash out or are thrown out, they face a future that no one can predict.

lets face the trouble with the euro was they let countries like spain,italy,greece ireland fiddle the figures which let them join the euro,their economys were never strong enough to survive and thats why i cannot see the uk in the euro has we have a history of devaluing the pound apart from the early 80,s when a overvalued pound destroyed our manufacturing base and will be in the second tier of a 2 speed europe.

[Window Cleaner]

lets face the trouble with the euro was they let countries like spain,italy,greece ireland fiddle the figures which let them join the euro,their economys were never strong enough to survive and thats why i cannot see the uk in the euro has we have a history of devaluing the pound apart from the early 80,s when a overvalued pound destroyed our manufacturing base and will be in the second tier of a 2 speed europe.

 

Everybody fiddled the figures to meet the adhesion conditions of the Euro, one off privatisations,forecast spending not counted,growth overestimated etc etc. It's just that some fiddled more than others or met the conditions approximatively because of a one off event.

As A European resident I can tell you exactly why economies are going down the pan in domino fashion,it's because most insist on giving stacks of money to people who do nothing or have contributed nothing.Do you know that for an employer in France

every euro that he pays to an employée leads to giving 50 centimes to the government so that they can hand it out to scroungers? For 10 euros earned, the employée gives 3 to the government (or various arms of it) and the employers gives another 5?

So the effective minimum wage is about 13.50 euros/hour and that's before income tax or company tax. Employing people just isn't on.

[solentstars]

You've got to laugh at someone who complains that Mail readers are d..ckheads and then in the same post writes "the jury is still out on the Euro". Even Jacques Delores has said it was "doomed to failure", perhaps he's a rabid right wing Mail reader.

 

The Euro nutters you speak of are surely the people that went ahead and rammed the Euro through and threatened the World's economy?

 

Brown was for the Euro in principle, it was just the timing he objected to. The people who were proved right were the people who were opposed to it in principle. Were against it, full stop. Not the people who supported it for Europe and supported The UK's entry when the cycle was right. They were wrong and have been proved wrong.

the euro as far has i know still survives so they have not been proved right and has the history of the us doller showsit did not happen overnight .gorden brown was for the euro and Gordon Brown approached his last budget has Chancellor and evaluating his success or failure. One important contribution he made was to steer the UK away from joining the Euro on the ground that "it would not be in Britain's economic interest". The justification for this was based on his 5 economics tests and thats how it should be unlike the greeks and others fiddling the figures to join the euro..

[solentstars]

Everybody fiddled the figures to meet the adhesion conditions of the Euro, one off privatisations,forecast spending not counted,growth overestimated etc etc. It's just that some fiddled more than others or met the conditions approximatively because of a one off event.

As A European resident I can tell you exactly why economies are going down the pan in domino fashion,it's because most insist on giving stacks of money to people who do nothing or have contributed nothing.Do you know that for an employer in France

every euro that he pays to an employée leads to giving 50 centimes to the government so that they can hand it out to scroungers? For 10 euros earned, the employée gives 3 to the government (or various arms of it) and the employers gives another 5?

So the effective minimum wage is about 13.50 euros/hour and that's before income tax or company tax. Employing people just isn't on.

and now they will have to take steps to address these problems or leave the euro and devalue the currency.

[Window Cleaner]

the euro as far has i know still survives so they have not been proved right and has the history of the us doller showsit did not happen overnight .gorden brown was for the euro and Gordon Brown approached his last budget has Chancellor and evaluating his success or failure. One important contribution he made was to steer the UK away from joining the Euro on the ground that "it would not be in Britain's economic interest". The justification for this was based on his 5 economics tests and thats how it should be unlike the greeks and others fiddling the figures to join the euro..

 

Greece,Ireland,Portugal,Spain they're all net receivers from the EEC and they certainly wouldn't want that jeopardised by not being able to join the Euro. Can't remember the figure that someone in the economy section of the comission quoted me the other day when I was trying to get some project funding but it was staggering just how much per capita the Greeks shaft the EEC for each year.Big Big money anyway.

[Window Cleaner]

and now they will have to take steps to address these problems or leave the euro and devalue the currency.

 

The Greeks?? don't count on it. They won't leave unless they're kicked out, which is probably what should happen, pay off their debts and kick them out as a warning to all the others.

[solentstars]

The Greeks?? don't count on it. They won't leave unless they're kicked out, which is probably what should happen, pay off their debts and kick them out as a warning to all the others.

i think they will find away for the greeks to leave has i cannot see how they can survivein the euro.

[Saintandy666]

Well hopefully you will not use the latter in future and risk putting words in other people's mouths.

 

I didn't mean it in that literal sense. Surely you realised when I said we I meant the consequences for all of us will be bad, not that that was everyone's opinion?!?!

[pap]

Everybody fiddled the figures to meet the adhesion conditions of the Euro, one off privatisations,forecast spending not counted,growth overestimated etc etc. It's just that some fiddled more than others or met the conditions approximatively because of a one off event.

As A European resident I can tell you exactly why economies are going down the pan in domino fashion,it's because most insist on giving stacks of money to people who do nothing or have contributed nothing.Do you know that for an employer in France

every euro that he pays to an employée leads to giving 50 centimes to the government so that they can hand it out to scroungers? For 10 euros earned, the employée gives 3 to the government (or various arms of it) and the employers gives another 5?

So the effective minimum wage is about 13.50 euros/hour and that's before income tax or company tax. Employing people just isn't on.

 

Well, taxation rates on business are part of the problem, but you'd have the same issues whether you were inside or outside the EU.

 

The big issue you've raised - the relative competitiveness of EU economies when put up against say, China - isn't just about tax. All of our salaries are driven by the cost of living, which is still a ton higher here than it is in developing countries. That's money that people need to find every month. The only way we can compete with the likes of China and India is to stop pretending our houses are worth as much as they are.

 

Chances?

[Window Cleaner]

i think they will find away for the greeks to leave has i cannot see how they can survivein the euro.

 

True, all those tax dodgers aren't going to suddenly become honest citizens.They won't accept austerity either.

[Window Cleaner]

Well, taxation rates on business are part of the problem, but you'd have the same issues whether you were inside or outside the EU.

 

The big issue you've raised - the relative competitiveness of EU economies when put up against say, China - isn't just about tax. All of our salaries are driven by the cost of living, which is still a ton higher here than it is in developing countries. That's money that people need to find every month. The only way we can compete with the likes of China and India is to stop pretending our houses are worth as much as they are.

 

Chances?

 

This is not about taxation,it's about social security contributions. Tax comes afterwards.

You have grannies who've never paid a franc in contributions in their lives living in assisted living facilities "au frais de la Princesse" at 1200 euros a month. My late mother in law used to have 3 weeks "cure" paid for by the Secu every year.Unemployment is indexed to what you earnt and for how long.For example if you were on 30K a year before losing you job for economic reasons you carry on getting about 18000 a year for 3 years (or more depending on your age) afterwards,not counting your retirement benefit and health insurance which are maintained at the same level. It's just robbing from Peter to pay Paul.

[solentstars]

Well, taxation rates on business are part of the problem, but you'd have the same issues whether you were inside or outside the EU.

 

The big issue you've raised - the relative competitiveness of EU economies when put up against say, China - isn't just about tax. All of our salaries are driven by the cost of living, which is still a ton higher here than it is in developing countries. That's money that people need to find every month. The only way we can compete with the likes of China and India is to stop pretending our houses are worth as much as they are.

 

Chances?

true its about time we made things again to pay our way in the world and had the vision of the germans for long term planning something governments of the 60s and 70s tried to create but unfortunately we had a them and us class division where we rather fight then have unity for the greater good of the country. Germany had quietly become the world’s second-largest exporter (after China). Indeed, Germany’s exports have contributed two-thirds of the country’s economic growth over the past decade and have driven its GDP per capita to increase faster than that of any other major industrialized country.

 

When it comes to boosting exports, of course, the need to maintain or even increase the size of the manufacturing sector, in particular, has been an article of faith in major developed countries for decades. Politicians and voters alike believe that having companies that “make something” is a key element of economic success, in part because manufacturing jobs have historically paid above average wages. For its part, Germany embraced manufacturing, and much of its economic success is thanks to that decision

[pap]

This is not about taxation,it's about social security contributions. Tax comes afterwards.

You have grannies who've never paid a franc in contributions in their lives living in assisted living facilities "au frais de la Princesse" at 1200 euros a month. My late mother in law used to have 3 weeks "cure" paid for by the Secu every year.Unemployment is indexed to what you earnt and for how long.For example if you were on 30K a year before losing you job for economic reasons you carry on getting about 18000 a year for 3 years (or more depending on your age) afterwards,not counting your retirement benefit and health insurance which are maintained at the same level. It's just robbing from Peter to pay Paul.

 

Yes, but the question you should really be asking is why does it cost 1200 Euros a month to keep la granny in care?

 

I'm sure that other countries look after their grannies too, but at a much lower cost.

[Window Cleaner]

Yes, but the question you should really be asking is why does it cost 1200 Euros a month to keep la granny in care?

 

I'm sure that other countries look after their grannies too, but at a much lower cost.

 

Staff costs, they're assimilated civil servants in those places. In our nearest EHPAD there are 77 staff for 108 residents (I know this because it was in the local rag). Result of applied Mitterandism. We shall be paying for that man's whims for generations,a meglomaniac who needed communists to put him into power.NB Not all of the Grannies need care either,they've just been dumped there by the families. I read an article the other day that more and more French people are refusing inheritance,thus absolving themselves from all debts of their elders.You can use the EHPAD to look after an ageing relative and then refuse any debt incurred.

Edited 6 December, 2011 by Window Cleaner

[pap]

true its about time we made things again to pay our way in the world and had the vision of the germans for long term planning something governments of the 60s and 70s tried to create but unfortunately we had a them and us class division where we rather fight then have unity for the greater good of the country. Germany had quietly become the world’s second-largest exporter (after China). Indeed, Germany’s exports have contributed two-thirds of the country’s economic growth over the past decade and have driven its GDP per capita to increase faster than that of any other major industrialized country.

 

When it comes to boosting exports, of course, the need to maintain or even increase the size of the manufacturing sector, in particular, has been an article of faith in major developed countries for decades. Politicians and voters alike believe that having companies that “make something” is a key element of economic success, in part because manufacturing jobs have historically paid above average wages. For its part, Germany embraced manufacturing, and much of its economic success is thanks to that decision

 

Good post, solentstars. I agree. We need to start paying our way. We have resources on our doorstep that we can't use, farms lying fallow because private enterprise gets a nice whack not to farm them.

 

We're moaning about the Tobin tax at the moment because it'll affect our precious financial services. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it's financial services that got us into this mess in the first place.

 

Problem is, it's no good ploughing money into a new industrial revolution if all the jobs are going to go to Eastern Europeans.

[teamsaint]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_%26_Poor's

 

the people who are telling us that Eurozone, including france and Germany may not be credit worthy.

 

They gave AAA ratings to all the big sub prime outfits in the USA.

 

We are being taken to the cleaners by big finance.(like we didn't already know).

[pap]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_%26_Poor's

 

the people who are telling us that Eurozone, including france and Germany may not be credit worthy.

 

They gave AAA ratings to all the big sub prime outfits in the USA.

 

We are being taken to the cleaners by big finance.(like we didn't already know).

 

Was listening to Today on my way back from the school run.

 

Apparently, David Cameron is making the protection of the City his top priority at the next summit. All this guff about repatriation of powers is exactly that. Pretty clear that a referendum is out too.

[aintforever]

Was listening to Today on my way back from the school run.

 

Apparently, David Cameron is making the protection of the City his top priority at the next summit. All this guff about repatriation of powers is exactly that. Pretty clear that a referendum is out too.

 

I doubt protecting the bankers bonuses in London is high on Europe's priorities though. It will be interesting to see the outcome.

[CB Saint]

Was listening to Today on my way back from the school run.

 

Apparently, David Cameron is making the protection of the City his top priority at the next summit. All this guff about repatriation of powers is exactly that. Pretty clear that a referendum is out too.

 

This is about the transaction tax ida that was floated recently. The euro politicos thought that this would be a good money spinner especialy as 80% of all revenues would have to be paid from the City of London.

 

Actually a transaction tax would be a good idea but only if the whole world adopted it - it would certainly curtail the speculative trading somewhat

[dune]

Our economy is heavily weighted in the financial sector so it is essential that we protect this sector and keep London in it's position. Failure to do so would lead to an exodus to Shanghai, Hong Kong, Bombay etc. That would do none of us any favours.

[pap]

Our economy is heavily weighted in the financial sector so it is essential that we protect this sector and keep London in it's position. Failure to do so would lead to an exodus to Shanghai, Hong Kong, Bombay etc. That would do none of us any favours.

 

Our economy is dangerously weighted in the financial sector and is in dire need of diversification.

[Verbal]

Apparently, David Cameron is making the protection of the City his top priority at the next summit.

 

Or to express it without the 'City' euphemism, Cameron's big idea is to defend the big banks as his number one priority in Europe - the same banks whose staggering greed and incompetence almost wiped Western capitalism off the map, and may yet still do so.

 

British citizens' eroded rights didn't even rate a 'priority' number.

[bridge too far]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_%26_Poor's

 

the people who are telling us that Eurozone, including france and Germany may not be credit worthy.

 

They gave AAA ratings to all the big sub prime outfits in the USA.

 

We are being taken to the cleaners by big finance.(like we didn't already know).

 

I'm slightly uneasy about a private company effectively dictating world politics. They're funded by investors and those investors have a vested interest in downgrading because they can charge higher interest rates for their loans.

[um pahars]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_%26_Poor's

 

the people who are telling us that Eurozone, including france and Germany may not be credit worthy.

 

They gave AAA ratings to all the big sub prime outfits in the USA.

 

We are being taken to the cleaners by big finance.(like we didn't already know).

 

Storyville: The Inside Job on BBC2 now are saying exactly that.

 

Disgraceful

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Or to express it without the 'City' euphemism, Cameron's big idea is to defend the big banks as his number one priority in Europe - the same banks whose staggering greed and incompetence almost wiped Western capitalism off the map, and may yet still do so.

 

British citizens' eroded rights didn't even rate a 'priority' number.

 

For a long time it was taken as given that London's strong financial sector was good for the country as a whole. I think it is good that a lot of people are scruntinising this alot more.

[um pahars]

Or to express it without the 'City' euphemism, Cameron's big idea is to defend the big banks as his number one priority in Europe - the same banks whose staggering greed and incompetence almost wiped Western capitalism off the map, and may yet still do so.

 

British citizens' eroded rights didn't even rate a 'priority' number.

 

I do hope you're watching BBC2!!!!!!!!

[Verbal]

I do hope you're watching BBC2!!!!!!!!

 

I've seen it already Um - I get to vote on it!

[hypochondriac]

I love Boris. He is my favourite politician. He should be PM.