What are you public sector lot up to on Weds then?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I'd be a lot happier if inflation dropped too!

 

Like I said, GFY.

[trousers]

There is no way she should feel compelled to strike. I'm sure many people won't be striking, it is a personal decision one way or the other.

 

If she feels any pressure then she should speak to the senior management as it is simply not right.

...

Edited 28 November, 2011 by trousers
deleted - probably me talking rubbish for once

[Verbal]

It is also entirely naive to expect sympathy over an act which is entirely destructive to those who may have already suffered terribly due to the reality which is now manifesting itself in the pension row.

 

There IS a lack of appreciation on both sides I feel. I know for certain though that a strike is absolutely not the right course of action, it can only inflame the situation, not generate a solution.

 

As a rule of thumb in politics, it's as well to remember that the more certain you are, the more likely it is you're wrong.

 

One of the uncomfortable truths for those who rail at the very idea of unions, or who merely object to their defence of existing terms and conditions of employment, is that without them Britain would be a low-wage economy (or even lower-wage), slipping into competition with Albania. In an age when the rich are becoming VASTLY richer - almost to the point of returning us to a Dickensian age - unions have never become more vital in the struggle to distribute a share of that economic growth over the last few decades Their actions may cause short term discomfort, but the consequences of those actions are that we - and by we I mean those who are not on seven-figure salaries at the taxpayer-sponging banks - are all better off.

 

Look what's happened in the US, where unions are weaker. The US economy is three times as big as it was in the 1970s, but workers there have experienced a 40-year, real-terms income squeeze, while the top 1% have quadrupled their wealth. We can sink back into this if you want - but Britain would be a far, far worse place for it.

[dronskisaint]

If it weren't growing we would still be in recession.

 

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/OECD-Predicts-Britain-Return-skynews-1610126020.html?x=0

[um pahars]

My brother, like thousands of other teachers, does many, many hours of unpaid overtime each week

 

Saw an interesting stat the other day regarding unpaid work in the Public Sector and it's particularly pertinent given the minority view that the public sector is workshy, lazy etc.

 

Something like 120 million unpaid hours are worked in the Public Sector every year. One in four public sector workers put in unpaid overtime worth £9billion per annum - compared to one in six in the Private Sector.

[Gemmel]

As a rule of thumb in politics, it's as well to remember that the more certain you are, the more likely it is you're wrong.

 

One of the uncomfortable truths for those who rail at the very idea of unions, or who merely object to their defence of existing terms and conditions of employment, is that without them Britain would be a low-wage economy (or even lower-wage), slipping into competition with Albania. In an age when the rich are becoming VASTLY richer - almost to the point of returning us to a Dickensian age - unions have never become more vital in the struggle to distribute a share of that economic growth over the last few decades Their actions may cause short term discomfort, but the consequences of those actions are that we - and by we I mean those who are not on seven-figure salaries at the taxpayer-sponging banks - are all better off.

 

Look what's happened in the US, where unions are weaker. The US economy is three times as big as it was in the 1970s, but workers there have experienced a 40-year, real-terms income squeeze, while the top 1% have quadrupled their wealth. We can sink back into this if you want - but Britain would be a far, far worse place for it.

 

Assuming you believe in what you have posted, the caveat you put in your first line, excuses you, for what is an absolute pile of old tosh.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Assuming you believe in what you have posted, the caveat you put in your first line, excuses you, for what is an absolute pile of old tosh.

 

Well that's certainly a devastating critique, nuanced and sophiticated.

 

Assuming Verbal is right about in his first line then both you and Verbal are wrong

[Gingeletiss]

There is no way she should feel compelled to strike. I'm sure many people won't be striking, it is a personal decision one way or the other.

 

If she feels any pressure then she should speak to the senior management as it is simply not right.

 

Worked with BA didn't it!.............or not as the case was.

[Whitey Grandad]

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/OECD-Predicts-Britain-Return-skynews-1610126020.html?x=0

 

Let's wait for the final figures, shall we.

[Whitey Grandad]

I would love to know who held a gun to the head of all these private sector and self employed workers? Everyone knows the potential benefits of certain jobs and people make a choice. If you choose to have a job with a crap pension or no holiday, that's up to you.

 

We're not complaining about our situation. We're complaining about having to pay for the bloated public sector as well as ourselves.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

My science teacher missus is extremely excited about her "strike day" on Wednesday, wants to go Christmas shopping in Winchester, have told her to get the train as I'm pretty sure parking will be a nightmare as hampshire's public workers descend on the shops!

 

The feeling at her school is this makes up for lack of likely "snow days" this winter... We had an argument when she told me that!

 

Anyone who does anything like that while their on strike needs to have a look at themselves and question if they should even be striking; if you truely believed in the reason behind the strike you would go and march/demonstrate (much like I am in Colchester - ain't I the uber unionist). Striking should not be seen as an excuse to just have a day off nor should it be taken lightly. People who see it as a 'day off' either don't take their job very seriously in the first place or the financial implications of going on strike doesn't have much of an effect on them.

 

Also, those who are moaning about the cost of teacher's pensions should ask themselves why the government REFUSE to carry out another audit on their cost to the public purse. My gut feeling is that we can obviously afford our pensions but that the Tories are using these tough economic times ™ as a cover for a politically motivated move against the public sector. Why would they refuse to carry out another audit if they were telling the truth? I'm not sure if I believe though that that the Tories could be that disgustingly dastardly...

 

Oh and FWIW, the English teacher missus isn't striking as she is due to have all year 10 and 11 classes on Wednesday.

Edited 28 November, 2011 by Thorpe-le-Saint

[Saintandy666]

I will be up before 7 on Saturday to get ready for my work, but I support the strike.

 

My Mum is a teacher and stands to lose a lot of money for her pension(my mum is only part time these days, so wouldn't have been working on Wednesday anyways). For what it is worth, the feeling is strong, people who have refused to strike before are going to strike on wednesday... i.e headteachers union.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Even the Tories themselves back the strike now!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15909788

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

We are the public sector, we'll strike when we want.

 

This. I do feel sorry for these poor unfortunate souls who were frog-marched into their private sector jobs. Not even having the option in to looking at working in the public sector when the benefits are there for all to see must have been horrible. You have my deepest sympathies.

[View From The Top]

When the sandal wearing ATL go on strike, for the 1st time in their 100 odd year history, then you know that some very bright people are very, very ******ed off.

[badgerx16]

Q - What is the point of a strike if it doesn't cause inconvenience to somebody ?

[andysstuff]

Good article here

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/28/public-service-workers-strike

 

For the record, I'll be on the picket line then on to a march in town.

[aintforever]

Was listening to a phone-in on Radio 5 the other day, this guy rang up explained how he (private sector worker) and his wife (public sector) paid exactly the same into their pensions. She stands to get 26K a year, he about 2K.

 

The fact that the public sector are striking over what is a very good deal just shows how sick with greed the world is today. They are crying like a bunch of big fat spoilt babies.

[aintforever]

Was listening to a phone-in on Radio 5 the other day, this guy rang up explained how he (private sector worker) and his wife (public sector) paid exactly the same into their pensions. She stands to get 26K a year, he about 2K.

 

The fact that the public sector are striking over what is a very good deal just shows how sick with greed the world is today. They are crying like a bunch of big fat spoilt babies.

[Saintandy666]

Q - What is the point of a strike if it doesn't cause inconvenience to somebody ?

 

There isn't.

[bridge too far]

Good article here

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/28/public-service-workers-strike

 

For the record, I'll be on the picket line then on to a march in town.

 

This bit is particularly worrying

 

The government is trying to make most pay more and work longer for less, even after this month's modest concessions. That isn't to fund pensions because people are living longer, but to help pay off the deficit run up to bail out the banks and the crisis they triggered. The 3.2% contributions hike is a tax on a workforce whose living standards have already been heavily squeezed by repeated pay freezes. Pensions aren't a perk, but deferred pay. Protecting pay and conditions is what unions are for.

 

Someone has already pointed out that the government refuses to carry out / divulge the results of an audit into the actual costs of these pensions. Some of the public sector pension funds are actually in credit.

 

I'm an NHS pensioner with a gold-plated pension of £4K a year (in spite of having held a senior management position) and I shall be marching with my fellow union members on Wednesday. Not in London, because my gold-plated pension won't stretch to the train fare, but certainly locally.

[View From The Top]

Was listening to a phone-in on Radio 5 the other day, this guy rang up explained how he (private sector worker) and his wife (public sector) paid exactly the same into their pensions. She stands to get 26K a year, he about 2K.

 

 

Must be true, a bloke on the radio said so.

[badgerx16]

This bit is particularly worrying

 

 

Your lack of cutting and pasting skill is genuinely worrying !

[badgerx16]

Must be true, a bloke on the radio said so.

And to reinforce the point he said it twice

[bridge too far]

Your lack of cutting and pasting skill is genuinely worrying !

 

I've edited it! It didn't seem to cut and paste first time, so I pressed Ctrl V again (and again)

[buctootim]

Was listening to a phone-in on Radio 5 the other day, this guy rang up explained how he (private sector worker) and his wife (public sector) paid exactly the same into their pensions. She stands to get 26K a year, he about 2K.

 

Is that a Northern Rock SIPP?

[aintforever]

Must be true, a bloke on the radio said so.

 

Sounded pretty sincere to me.

[View From The Top]

Sounded pretty sincere to me.

 

If you think paying in ££ per month over a career earns one person £26k and another £2k then I'll assume that you still believe in the tooth fairy. Either that or that the latter person has a SIPP from the Bank of Pompey.

[aintforever]

If you think paying in ££ per month over a career earns one person £26k and another £2k then I'll assume that you still believe in the tooth fairy. Either that or that the latter person has a SIPP from the Bank of Pompey.

 

That's probably why he was p!ssed off.

 

Either way, public sector pensions cost us all too much and this round of cuts will be the first of many.

[Smirking_Saint]

I would have to admit that I will be voicing my opinion towards a selfish and frankly cowardly display that is happening on wednesday.

 

In a time of such an economic mess I find it somewhat nauseating that what on the outside seems a strike designed to cause the most disruption without actually showing any real commitment from the strikers is actually happening.

 

As for inane comments such as nobody holds a gun to anyones head in regards to the jobs they take I think I will repost later when your jobs are slashed due to the double dip recession caused, a small amount, by the greed during the boom.

[View From The Top]

I would have to admit that I will be voicing my opinion towards a selfish and frankly cowardly display that is happening on wednesday.

 

In a time of such an economic mess I find it somewhat nauseating that what on the outside seems a strike designed to cause the most disruption without actually showing any real commitment from the strikers is actually happening.

 

As for inane comments such as nobody holds a gun to anyones head in regards to the jobs they take I think I will repost later when your jobs are slashed due to the double dip recession caused, a small amount, by the greed during the boom.

 

I'm sure it's all the dinner ladies, teachers, bin men that caused the boom and the forth coming double-dip and nothing to do with the banks. Nope, nowt to do with them.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15910621

 

Oh dear, isn't that a turn up eh?

[rocknrollman no2]

I would have to admit that I will be voicing my opinion towards a selfish and frankly cowardly display that is happening on wednesday.

 

In a time of such an economic mess I find it somewhat nauseating that what on the outside seems a strike designed to cause the most disruption without actually showing any real commitment from the strikers is actually happening.

 

As for inane comments such as nobody holds a gun to anyones head in regards to the jobs they take I think I will repost later when your jobs are slashed due to the double dip recession caused, a small amount, by the greed during the boom.

The economic mess you speak of was caused by greedy bankers and incompetent ministers who took chances with our hard earned money and lost.I find it reeks of double standards that the government can find millions of pounds to bail out the banks,without a second thought,but then go and slash services,jobs and pensions for everyone else.

As for calling the strike "cowardly and selfish,what planet are you on??

Do you not think its right for people to want to fight back against a government who have said work harder,longer and pay more and oh by the way you cant retire until you are fit to drop.All of this mess is NOT THE FAULT of those people going to strike on Wednesday.

My wife works for the public sector,doing a highly stressful job,for which she had to study for years to become fully trained.Her job is done in difficult conditions and she always works way above her set hours,usually starting two to three hours before and at least three hours after her shift,all without getting any extra pay.She and her work friends do this because they care about their jobs.The pension she pays into is self funding and doesnt take any money from the government,yet the Condems want to cream of money from this and make everyone pay more.

I say good luck to everyone who goes on strike on Wednesday!!!!!

[Verbal]

Assuming you believe in what you have posted, the caveat you put in your first line, excuses you, for what is an absolute pile of old tosh.

 

Are you capable of a reasoned argument to go with this? Or do you just need a little lie down?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I'm sure it's all the dinner ladies, teachers, bin men that caused the boom and the forth coming double-dip and nothing to do with the banks. Nope, nowt to do with them.

 

Of course dinner ladies .. etc aren't to blame for the recession, and neither are ordinary working people in the private sector for that matter. What is true however is that all the pain from our current situation just can't be carried on the overburdened shoulders of private enterprise yet again.

 

Any decent economist will tell you that the public sector in this country has grown far too large for the good of the productive economy as a whole, and (as this thread amply demonstrates) many of the workers within it still see themselves as having some God given right to better treatment than other working people, people who (much like myself) are very often significantly worse off than they are. I don't blame people at all for striking in a attempt to protect their privileges as it is clearly in their self interest to do so, it is not however in the national interest that they should get their way.

 

As Bod Dylan once said: the times they are a changing .......

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm sure it's all the dinner ladies, teachers, bin men that caused the boom and the forth coming double-dip and nothing to do with the banks. Nope, nowt to do with them.

Blame the banks if you like, but they didn't cause the problems. It was too much borrowing, and part of that borrowing went to employing too many public sector workers. Now the rest of us are having to pick up the bill.

[buctootim]

Blame the banks if you like, but they didn't cause the problems. It was too much borrowing, and part of that borrowing went to employing too many public sector workers. Now the rest of us are having to pick up the bill.

 

Nothing to do with the banks liquidity and solvency crunch which collapsed consumer confidence, starved business of working capital, required the government to spend £80bn or so bailing them out and caused the recession then? No sir. No sirree.

Edited 28 November, 2011 by buctootim

[bridge too far]

Those of you in the private sector with p*ss poor pensions to come will have to rely on the state to provide you with a pension. pension credits and other state benefits so that you have a barely comfortable retirement. Now who will pay for that? Your children, my children etc. etc. in the form of tax.

 

If public sector workers decide they can't afford to contribute to their pension schemes, they, too, will rely on pension credits and other state benefits when they retire.

 

With the current rates at which they contribute, some of them will be able to retire without state support.

 

As the Guardian article pointed out, the government's proposals are, in effect, a 3.2% tax rise for public sector workers. How many of you would be happy to pay another 3.2p in the pound in tax?

 

And instead of moaning about the public sector workers, why aren't you organising and demanding that your employers offer you decent pension plans. The good ones do. Why does it have to be a race to the bottom?

[View From The Top]

Blame the banks if you like, but they didn't cause the problems. It was too much borrowing, and part of that borrowing went to employing too many public sector workers. Now the rest of us are having to pick up the bill.

 

You can't possibly be that thick?

[Verbal]

Blame the banks if you like, but they didn't cause the problems. It was too much borrowing, and part of that borrowing went to employing too many public sector workers. Now the rest of us are having to pick up the bill.

 

Where can I invoice you?

 

I think you might want to look at a few histories of the current crisis to see where you've gone horribly wrong. I'd recommend Gillian Tett's 'Fool's Gold: How the Bold dream of a Small Tribe at JP Morgan Was corrupted by Wall Street Greed and Unleashed a Catastrophe'. This traces the roots of the derivatives crisis which remains at the heart of everything going on now. And for a British perspective: Philip Augar's 'Chasing Alpha: How Reckless Growth and Unchecked Ambition Ruined the City's Golden Decade'.

 

Then come back and say you can't blame the banks...

[View From The Top]

You can't possibly be that thick?

 

Actually, with the history of your posts, you are.

[um pahars]

Of course dinner ladies .. etc aren't to blame for the recession, and neither are ordinary working people in the private sector for that matter. What is true however is that all the pain from our current situation just can't be carried on the overburdened shoulders of private enterprise yet again.

 

Any decent economist will tell you that the public sector in this country has grown far too large for the good of the productive economy as a whole, and (as this thread amply demonstrates) many of the workers within it still see themselves as having some God given right to better treatment than other working people, people who (much like myself) are very often significantly worse off than they are. I don't blame people at all for striking in a attempt to protect their privileges as it is clearly in their self interest to do so, it is not however in the national interest that they should get their way.

 

As Bod Dylan once said: the times they are a changing .......

 

I certainly think there is a case for redressing the private/public sector imbalance, but I'm not sure I'd agree with your idea that they have a God given right to better treatment etc.

 

Hundreds of thousands of Public Sector jobs being culled plus an across the board effective 10% pay cut over the last two years suggests they have played their part (I'll be £100k worse off as a result of this effective pay cut). Additionally many have taken a further pay cut. So I think they have a decent shout in saying they have already played their part in contributing to the national interest.

 

And I'm also not sure about throwing the baby out of the bathwater and downgrading the roles and rewards of those who will stay in the Public Sector is the way to go. I'm certainly concerned that an effective 10% pay cut for teachers plus a massive alteration to their pensions will influence those who might on the future choose to go in to a profession that is so intrinsic to the future national interest.

[TheCholulaKid]

Those of you in the private sector with p*ss poor pensions to come will have to rely on the state to provide you with a pension. pension credits and other state benefits so that you have a barely comfortable retirement. Now who will pay for that? Your children, my children etc. etc. in the form of tax.

 

If public sector workers decide they can't afford to contribute to their pension schemes, they, too, will rely on pension credits and other state benefits when they retire.

 

With the current rates at which they contribute, some of them will be able to retire without state support.

 

As the Guardian article pointed out, the government's proposals are, in effect, a 3.2% tax rise for public sector workers. How many of you would be happy to pay another 3.2p in the pound in tax?

 

And instead of moaning about the public sector workers, why aren't you organising and demanding that your employers offer you decent pension plans. The good ones do. Why does it have to be a race to the bottom?

 

Best post on this thread. The shortsightedness (and selfishness) of people never ceases to amaze me and this thread is no exception.

 

I really didn't want to strike on Wednesday but getting home and seeing that oaf Gove on the news was the clincher. Typical divisive rhetoric from the Tories. They remind me of the Republicans under Bush - repeat untruths enough times and the public will believe.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Nothing to do with the banks liquidity and solvency crunch which collapsed consumer confidence, required the government to spend £80bn or so bailing them out and caused the recession then? No sir. No sirree.

 

I've no interest in defending the murkier practices of the financial industry as that would be an attempt to defend the indefensible, But it seems to me that the expansion of the state that we saw under the last government was, in large part, funded via the huge profits generated by the City of London. I don't remember very many public sector workers complaining about that at the time.

 

But the 'blame game' gets us nowhere because we are where we are. If we're not to join the long list of Eurozone countries in economic crisis and burden our children's children with this mess we've made, then the truth is that government debt and current spending has to be brought under control.

 

 

If we don't economize on public spending then where the hell else is the money going to come from ?

[buctootim]

I've no interest in defending the murkier practices of the financial industry as that would be an attempt to defend the indefensible, But it seems to me that the expansion of the state that we saw under the last government was, in large part, funded via the huge profits generated by the City of London. I don't remember very many public sector workers complaining about that at the time.

 

But the 'blame game' gets us nowhere because we are where we are. If we're not to join the long list of Eurozone countries in economic crisis and burden our children's children with this mess we've made, then the truth is that government debt and current spending has to be brought under control.

 

 

If we don't economize on public spending then where the hell else is the money going to come from ?

 

I dont disagree that now we have got into the mess we need to manage our way out of it - and that means balancing the budget (although we can debate how far and how fast cuts should go). I was replying to ther poster who said the cuts was nothing to do with the banks - which is clearly nonsense.

[View From The Top]

I've no interest in defending the murkier practices of the financial industry as that would be an attempt to defend the indefensible, But it seems to me that the expansion of the state that we saw under the last government was, in large part, funded via the huge profits generated by the City of London. I don't remember very many public sector workers complaining about that at the time.

 

But the 'blame game' gets us nowhere because we are where we are. If we're not to join the long list of Eurozone countries in economic crisis and burden our children's children with this mess we've made, then the truth is that government debt and current spending has to be brought under control.

 

 

If we don't economize on public spending then where the hell else is the money going to come from ?

 

Public spending is going to be £100 Billion over what the government planned, according to their own figures, due to the high levels of unemployment that their, frankly stupid, cuts have caused.

 

Instead of saving money, they are costing us all more.

[bridge too far]

Recently I read that Norway has one of the largest public sectors.

 

The same Norway that is reportedly the best country in the world to live in. The same Norway that continues to show growth in GDP beyond the European average. The same Norway that has a much smaller divide between rich and poor.

 

OK it has a lot of natural resources, but sensibly the Norwegian government has kept it in state control instead of selling it off.

[bridge too far]

Oh hello!

 

Michael Gove seems so dead set against the idea of strikes that he doesn’t admit he went on strike himself.

On graduating from university, Gove took on a job as a trainee journalist at The Press and Journal in Aberdeen.

There he went on a strike for as long as four months, after his employers de-recognised the National Union of Journalists and made scapegoats of union leaders. Most of his colleagues too were opposed to the newspaper’s actions.

The New Statesman reported a few years ago that Michael Gove was, “an active striker, willingly taking his turn on picket duty and going on a small delegation to Strasbourg to press the union’s case”.

 

From here: http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/06/27/michael-gove-warns-teachers-but-he-also-went-on-strike/ but reported on the BBC News just now too

[badgerx16]

Hundreds of thousands of Public Sector jobs being culled plus an across the board effective 10% pay cut over the last two years suggests they have played their part (I'll be £100k worse off as a result of this effective pay cut). Additionally many have taken a further pay cut. So I think they have a decent shout in saying they have already played their part in contributing to the national interest.

 

 

[JackanorySFC]

Well missus is very excited about Winchester on weds, easy day tomorrow as no lesson planning required after school for the next day. she has spent the evening making a cake as all the women are doing them to "celebrate" their mini week.

 

As an NQT she feels pressurised to go along with it even though the head isn't striking. No kids will be in her school so she's having to lose a days pay and go shopping.

 

Personally think it's insane, our contracts (my private company) have been changed 3 times in 9 years because we are skint and making less money than we used to (much like UK plc), people are living longer so we need to work longer and pay more - so what? Deal with it, Im not moaning and I enjoy working hard - watching these moaning spongers in their 70's time warp infuriates me - for a minute or two. The country's skint, chin up sleaves up and dig in without complaining. That attitude gave us an empire, today's "I'm owed a living by everyone one else that I'm jealous of" attitude will bring us in line with the lazy med country's before we know it!