What a waste of money.

[buctootim]

Occasionally, rarely, Dune get interested in discussing on threads and forgets to troll and bait. That happened a few days ago. I see he's back to type now.

[Turkish]

I think the real travesty would have been if Thorpe used the Bible as a reliable historical source.

 

Quote from you earlier on

 

 

 

You really just are a troll!

 

Ouch, i dont know how anyone could recover from such an attack.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Seems strange to condemn faith schools that are often over subscribed and outperform their non faith counterparts. Perhaps more energy should be diverted to understanding why they are better.

 

If people want to send their children to faith schools what business is it of other people; there is clearly a demand for them and they pay their taxes. It strikes me that it is more about people hating and a bizarre insecurity that people are incapable of thinking for themselves.

[Frank's cousin]

That's a sweeping statement if ever I heard one. Additionally, are you suggesting that those who believe in a religion do so because they have been told what to think from a young age?

 

I am talking about the teaching of religous dogma as fact or without opportunity to question the basis on which it is based - to me, IMHO that is abuse (let alone the horrific stories of physical abuse that occured/occurs in some) Why, because if children grow up believers due to childhood indoctrination, then to me that is simply wrong. Therefore be it Bibles, Korans whatever, has no place in schools - until they are used in study of their history and as literature or during comaparative exercises where exploartion of their cultural influence is examined - eg an an age when kids are old enough to make up their own minds and to question the validity of it all. I would hazzard a guess that most who are true 'believers' are because of early teaching of whichever religion as fact (I have no evidenec for thsi but its an educated guess) - yes tehre are thsoe who seek it later in life @norn again' or whatever, who gravitate towards the mumbo jumbo as something is missing in their lives.

 

I am not saying that all teh parables or teachings within these books are not valid, afterall if you select elements carefully there are some good humanitarian principles in them, but to combine these teachings with belief in a higher being is something that should be left until kids are alot older and can question it.

[Window Cleaner]

I am talking about the teaching of religous dogma as fact or without opportunity to question the basis on which it is based - to me, IMHO that is abuse (let alone the horrific stories of physical abuse that occured/occurs in some) Why, because if children grow up believers due to childhood indoctrination, then to me that is simply wrong. Therefore be it Bibles, Korans whatever, has no place in schools - until they are used in study of their history and as literature or during comaparative exercises where exploartion of their cultural influence is examined - eg an an age when kids are old enough to make up their own minds and to question the validity of it all. I would hazzard a guess that most who are true 'believers' are because of early teaching of whichever religion as fact (I have no evidenec for thsi but its an educated guess) - yes tehre are thsoe who seek it later in life @norn again' or whatever, who gravitate towards the mumbo jumbo as something is missing in their lives.

 

I am not saying that all teh parables or teachings within these books are not valid, afterall if you select elements carefully there are some good humanitarian principles in them, but to combine these teachings with belief in a higher being is something that should be left until kids are alot older and can question it.

 

 

Surely schools (unless otherwise advertised)are laique [don't know the English word for that ] No religion,no religous books or objects,no veils,no headscarves.

[Saintandy666]

Ouch, i dont know how anyone could recover from such an attack.

 

And neither will I from that stinging retort.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Keep digging. You have just provided us with an insight into your own ability. I would suggest you do some historical research before replying with another uneducated contribution.

 

Until I see a historian of the same standing as AJP Taylor etc stating that the Bible is a reliable historical document, I shall retain my correct judgement that it is a load of ******** Mr.HND.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

So you dont think Jesus existed then? Or tha there was a Roman Empire.

 

If you expect me to believe that there was man walking around during the days of the Roman Empire healing disabled people and turning water into wine then my friend you are more of prat than dune.

[buctootim]

Some prophets like Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed hit the big time, some never made it. If people can believe in L Ron Hubbard in the age of the internet is it so hard to believe people were taken in 2,000 years ago?

[View From The Top]

So you dont think Jesus existed then? Or tha there was a Roman Empire.

 

There is actually no historical evidence, or at least known evidence, that Jesus did exist, although I'm sure he did.

[View From The Top]

What is b/llocks is the the reason for the new testament, and a lot of the content, but there is truth in parts if you read between the lines and remember that it is essentially propaganda.

 

What you need to understand Andy is that we are talking about text written a long time ago, long after events, and as such you cannot rely on it, but what you can do is study the writings in a scholarly fashion to try to see if there is some historical fact in there. The plagues of Egypt is an example of where strange events can be explained and it gives us an insight into what could happen to us. This makes it valuable because it gives us an historical precedent to a cataclysmic event.

 

Do you understand now youth?

 

You are confusing interpretation with fact.

[View From The Top]

Surely schools (unless otherwise advertised)are laique [don't know the English word for that ] No religion,no religous books or objects,no veils,no headscarves.

 

Should be but, alas, are not.

[scotty]

Excellent. You cant beat a good religious thread to get a few pages of utter b*llocks.

[View From The Top]

Seems strange to condemn faith schools that are often over subscribed and outperform their non faith counterparts. Perhaps more energy should be diverted to understanding why they are better.

 

If people want to send their children to faith schools what business is it of other people; there is clearly a demand for them and they pay their taxes. It strikes me that it is more about people hating and a bizarre insecurity that people are incapable of thinking for themselves.

 

The worst performing primary schools in my borough are CofE.

[hypochondriac]

I agree, it is worthwhile because many DO believe it and it defines many countries around the world.. But contain it to R.E/R.S lessons(and history lessons where it's relevant!) and make sure that Children aren't allowed to just assume it is true. Let them decide for themselves.

 

I thought that is what most schools did. So it's not really a waste of money then is it? It depends on how the Bibles are utilised.

[hypochondriac]

There are some great part of the bible, in terms of literature and philosophy, but it's hard to focus on them when so much of it is utterly appalling and a fairly shameful reflection on the human race for coming up with it.

 

I've never understood it. Clearly some people follow it and are good, but they have to dismiss or overlook huge parts of it. Therefore they already know what is good and bad, so no morality can come from the bible. For that reason I almost have more understanding, albeit not respect, for the crazies who obey it to the letter and get all vengeful, bigoted and hatey. I can't keep up with the cherry pickers.

 

Overall Lord of the Rings has a far clearer and more positive narrative.

 

Or use it as a guide or as inspiration to live a better life, or who realise that as a document it is flawed (as written by flawed human beings) but realise that it has some good in it and some worthwhile lessons to teach us?

[hypochondriac]

in that case they should teach kids about our original religion of paganism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_paganism

 

From a historical viewpoint, religion has shaped our society and history for hundreds of years. It made Britain a lot of what it is today (both good and bad) and so I would argue that Christianity is a lot more relevant than paganism. Of course, Anglo Saxon life has its merits as well but as it is impossible to study all of history at school, perhaps some things have more relevance than others?

[hypochondriac]

I've read a lot of the Bible. Like I said, lots of it are very nice, but a hell of a lot of it is also nasty and hateful as well as barbaric.

 

I think you have ignored what I have been telling you.

[hypochondriac]

I am talking about the teaching of religous dogma as fact or without opportunity to question the basis on which it is based - to me, IMHO that is abuse (let alone the horrific stories of physical abuse that occured/occurs in some) Why, because if children grow up believers due to childhood indoctrination, then to me that is simply wrong. Therefore be it Bibles, Korans whatever, has no place in schools - until they are used in study of their history and as literature or during comaparative exercises where exploartion of their cultural influence is examined - eg an an age when kids are old enough to make up their own minds and to question the validity of it all. I would hazzard a guess that most who are true 'believers' are because of early teaching of whichever religion as fact (I have no evidenec for thsi but its an educated guess) - yes tehre are thsoe who seek it later in life @norn again' or whatever, who gravitate towards the mumbo jumbo as something is missing in their lives.

 

I am not saying that all teh parables or teachings within these books are not valid, afterall if you select elements carefully there are some good humanitarian principles in them, but to combine these teachings with belief in a higher being is something that should be left until kids are alot older and can question it.

 

And I would agree with you there. I just don't think it is as widespread as some on here are making out.

[hypochondriac]

And I will stop replying now

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

The worst performing primary schools in my borough are CofE.

 

Well I am not qualified to say but as far as I understood it CofE schools outperform others. As a result they are often over subscribed. Personally I think it is a red herring and don't like the way that they are portrayed as somehow being wicked for brainwashing children. I suppose I went to a 'faith' school with a lot of others and none of us came out like Billy Graham. I just had a respect for religion and people's right to practice it be it CofE, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim. I like the values they promote.

[hypochondriac]

Well I am not qualified to say but as far as I understood it CofE schools outperform others. As a result they are often over subscribed. Personally I think it is a red herring and don't like the way that they are portrayed as somehow being wicked for brainwashing children. I suppose I went to a 'faith' school with a lot of others and none of us came out like Billy Graham. I just had a respect for religion and people's right to practice it be it CofE, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim. I like the values they promote.

 

I am 100% of this opinion. Great post. I wonder how many people deriding faith schools for brainwashing actually attended a faith school themselves?

[View From The Top]

Well I am not qualified to say but as far as I understood it CofE schools outperform others. As a result they are often over subscribed. Personally I think it is a red herring and don't like the way that they are portrayed as somehow being wicked for brainwashing children. I suppose I went to a 'faith' school with a lot of others and none of us came out like Billy Graham. I just had a respect for religion and people's right to practice it be it CofE, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim. I like the values they promote.

 

The best performing schools, hence being oversubscribed, in my borough are "ordinary" schools both at primary and secondary.

 

Plenty of CofE and Catholic primary schools, inspected under the new OFSTED rules, have been down graded from good to satisfactory and outstanding to good, due in a large part to "cruising". This is often caused by staff staying in situ too long.

 

Like anything, there are good and bad but I've always believed that religion has no place in education, as per the French model.

[hypochondriac]

The best performing schools, hence being oversubscribed, in my borough are "ordinary" schools both at primary and secondary.

 

Plenty of CofE and Catholic primary schools, inspected under the new OFSTED rules, have been down graded from good to satisfactory and outstanding to good, due in a large part to "cruising". This is often caused by staff staying in situ too long.

 

Like anything, there are good and bad but I've always believed that religion has no place in education, as per the French model.

 

I think he was referring nationally rather than just a single borough. I'm not sure what you mean by no place? I think we have all agreed that being force-fed religion as fact is totally wrong. However, I would argue that learning about religion is vitally important, since it was and continues to be a large force in our society (both good and bad.)

Edited 28 November, 2011 by hypochondriac

[Saintandy666]

I think you have ignored what I have been telling you.

 

I haven't. Just neither of us have changed our opinions because of what we have said to each other due to the fact we are both stubborn and think we are right!

[hypochondriac]

I haven't. Just neither of us have changed our opinions because of what we have said to each other due to the fact we are both stubborn and think we are right!

 

Erm no. I never denied that there are some horrible bits in the bible, neither have I disagreed that those who follow the bible as a literal translation of the word of God are wrong. I do believe though that many Christians use it as a guide or as inspiration to live a better life. They realise that as a document it is flawed (as written by flawed human beings) but realise that it has some good in it and some worthwhile lessons to teach us. Do you disagree?

[Saintandy666]

Erm no. I never denied that there are some horrible bits in the bible, neither have I disagreed that those who follow the bible as a literal translation of the word of God are wrong. I do believe though that many Christians use it as a guide or as inspiration to live a better life. They realise that as a document it is flawed (as written by flawed human beings) but realise that it has some good in it and some worthwhile lessons to teach us. Do you disagree?

 

Many Christians don't use it like that. And yes, I did agree there are nice and bad bits... the nice bits do contain some good advice. But I don't think it should be used as life guidance as the book is within the context of a narrative of what God wants and so to ignore vast stretches of it is stupid. You are better just to create your own moral compass!

 

So, we agree on some points, but disagree on conclusion. And I doubt much more debate will change that.

[hypochondriac]

Many Christians don't use it like that.

 

 

I think many more do than you believe (and insinuate.), American right wing nutjobs excepted. My line of work put me in direct contact with many Christians, as well as having a number I count as friends. I would be curious to know what real life experience you have to come to your conclusions?

And yes, I did agree there are nice and bad bits... the nice bits do contain some good advice. But I don't think it should be used as life guidance as the book is within the context of a narrative of what God wants and so to ignore vast stretches of it is stupid. You are better just to create your own moral compass!

 

That is the crux of the matter. Many Christians do not believe that the Bible is simply 'what God wants' as you put it or at least not the entire body of work. In fact, someone I know personally is frustrated by the stubborness of some Christians who stick stubbornly to the words contained in the Bible. For him (and many others) this is not what Christianity is about at all.

 

So, we agree on some points, but disagree on conclusion. And I doubt much more debate will change that.

 

I think some more experience of Christianity (and other religions) would do you a lot of good. It appears to me that a lot of your views on this issue have been given to you by other people. Going out and meeting religious people can change your mind on a lot of issues. I think that here (as in some other debates) you show your youthfulness.

Edited 28 November, 2011 by hypochondriac

[Saintandy666]

I think some more experience of Christianity (and other religions) would do you a lot of good. It appears to me that a lot of your views on this issue have been given to you by other people. Going out and meeting religious people can change your mind on a lot of issues. I think that here (as in some other debates) you show your youthfulness.

 

I can assure you I have met many religious people of many types and have had friends who are Muslim, serious Christian, relaxed Christian and Jewish. This generation is much more multicultural than the last and so in a way, I think this may be an area where perhaps the youth have a bit of experience! I think it is poor form to just say 'you are young' here.

 

I have met enough people who follow many types of religions basically and talked about it with them openly.

 

I am aware how most UK Christians do not take the whole Bible literally(you'd be surprised how many young people do though), but that just discredits the whole book which after all is what Christianity's teachings are based upon when it is meant to be the words of God written down. I am aware many have moved away from this, but if you start picking and choosing which bits are right and which bits are wrong and which bits are Gods words and which are influenced by man, you discredit the whole book.

[Frank's cousin]

Why do faith schools out perform others... without a qualified response but a gut instinct would say its quite simple... The parents of those kids who attend often go out of their way to get their kids in them... often going to church for a few months etc... quite simply because the parents actually care about their kids education, so I would speculate that these kids get the support and input from home to help with their education, its not rocket science... and its not divine intevention ;-)

[dune]

Until I see a historian of the same standing as AJP Taylor etc stating that the Bible is a reliable historical document, I shall retain my correct judgement that it is a load of ******** Mr.HND.

 

No documents written thousands of years ago can be taken at face value, but serious historians (obviously not a tin pot comprehensive school teacher) would not dismiss them. Professional scholars do not dismiss the bible, Egyptian writings, and other ancient texts, they study them to glean facts. The fact you don't understand this is a reflection of your own poor grasp of the subject. Clearly you will always be limited to being a text book historian as opposed to a true academic engaged in research.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

No documents written thousands of years ago can be taken at face value, but serious historians (obviously not a tin pot comprehensive school teacher) would not dismiss them. Professional scholars do not dismiss the bible, Egyptian writings, and other ancient texts, they study them to glean facts. The fact you don't understand this is a reflection of your own poor grasp of the subject. Clearly you will always be limited to being a text book historian as opposed to a true academic engaged in research.

 

You are reet funny and that, for someone with no qualifications and jobless you have certainly kept your sense of humour. Well done you! - talking of reasearch, have you managed to find out why the government REFUSE to carry out and audit on the cost of public sector pensions? Thanks.

[Ken Tone]

I see that as usual Dune and Turkish have turned this threads into their usual troll fest , but to return to the OP's point.

 

Gove has chosen to spend nearly £400,000 sending a bible to each state school in the country, with a foreword written by him. Not only is this pointless because I think you'd struggle to find any normal state school in the country that has not already got plenty of copies of the bible, but it is also obviously just an ego trip by Gove. What he is actually trying to achieve is to have a copy of a book in every school with his name and his introductory burble, is to keep his name in thousands of children's minds for years to come. Quite Stalin-esque.

 

If I were Osborne, I'd be wondering what similar trick I could pull to help my future campagn for the party leadership after Cameron goes. Maybe he could send every bank a copy of the regulations on credit cards, with a foreword by him, and insist it is displayed for the public to see?

 

Why on earth should we taxpayers fund Gove's silly ideas and personal ambition ?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Well quite, and as I expected, you're totally naive (naive may be a bit generious actually) for believing ANYTHING that is printed in the Bible, let alone believing in a God.

You should pick up a KS2 science textbook some time and fill your little mind with FACT instead of picking up a Bible and filling your head with FICTION.

 

One of the most influential historical documents that has helped to shape how history has panned out in the last two thousand years and that intellectual heavyweight from Colchester announces that it is purely a work of fiction.

 

Science changes.

[dune]

One of the most influential historical documents that has helped to shape how history has panned out in the last two thousand years and that intellectual heavyweight from Colchester announces that it is purely a work of fiction.

 

Science changes.

 

He as dug himself into a hole over this hasn't he?

 

I just find it amazing how one so naive about history is teaching the subject.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

One of the most influential historical documents that has helped to shape how history has panned out in the last two thousand years and that intellectual heavyweight from Colchester announces that it is purely a work of fiction.

 

Science changes.

 

Are you suggesting that is was the Bible/religion, AND ONLY THE BIBLE/RELIGION, that has driven British/European history since 0AD? Oh dear me. I don't think I need to say anything else; in trying to make yourself look clever, you've made yourself look like a total tool.

 

Yes science changes, but through a little word called 'PROGRESS'.

 

Whether you like it or not Sergei/dune, the Bible/Christianity/Religion in general is total and utter ********.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

He as dug himself into a hole over this hasn't he?

 

I just find it amazing how one so naive about history is teaching the subject.

 

Masters degree 1-0 Mickey Mouse HND

[Special K]

Are you suggesting that is was the Bible/religion, AND ONLY THE BIBLE/RELIGION, that has driven British/European history since 0AD? Oh dear me. I don't think I need to say anything else; in trying to make yourself look clever, you've made yourself look like a total tool.

 

Yes science changes, but through a little word called 'PROGRESS'.

 

Whether you like it or not Sergei/dune, the Bible/Christianity/Religion in general is total and utter ********.

 

Religion has undoubtedly influenced historical events. As a supposed teacher, you should appreciate that, whether you agree with it or not and not let your aggresive atheism get in the way. Sadly though, i suspect it does.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Are you suggesting that is was the Bible/religion, AND ONLY THE BIBLE/RELIGION, that has driven British/European history since 0AD? Oh dear me. I don't think I need to say anything else; in trying to make yourself look clever, you've made yourself look like a total tool.

 

Yes science changes, but through a little word called 'PROGRESS'.

 

Whether you like it or not Sergei/dune, the Bible/Christianity/Religion in general is total and utter ********.

 

Did you actually study history? Your powers of analysis are somewhat under developed - lets start with the impact of the spread of Christianity on the Roman Empire, or maybe when the Vikings discovered Christianity, what about the crusades, the power of the Church in the Middle Ages, the consequences of the reformation. What do you think children had read to them everyday, what do you think they first read? What about the role of religion in the empire and Gladstone's faith influencing his politics. What about Ireland? What about Gordon Brown and his moral compass? Even now it is a political issue and that is why Gove rather grandly is providing Bibles with a foreward from him. You do not think then that the Bible has probably had more influence on the direction of our nation than any other single factor.

 

How does your science explain emotion, love, spiritualism? I would suggest that the first rule of science is to not rule out anything. Religion can be a great force for good when it is not exploited for the wrong reasons.

 

By the way you come across as if you are shouting. Rather sad.

[dune]

Did you actually study history?

 

As i've said my impression is that TLS is a text book historian, as opposed to someone who is passionate about the subject.

[View From The Top]

Religion has undoubtedly influenced historical events.

 

Of course it has, hugely for at least 1500 years. One could even argue that the King James's Bible is the singularly most important book ever published in the English language.

 

However, that doesn't alter the fact that no serious historian considers the bible as a factual source and there is no primary evidence that Jesus existed, or at least none that isn't held in some Vatican vault!

 

Far too many folk confuse interpretation of events by historians with facts. The two are not the same.

[View From The Top]

As i've said my impression is that TLS is a text book historian, as opposed to someone who is passionate about the subject.

 

As he has an MA in the subject I would suggest he has more passion than someone who merely reads history books.

[dune]

Of course it has, hugely for at least 1500 years. One could even argue that the King James's Bible is the singularly most important book ever published in the English language.

 

However, that doesn't alter the fact that no serious historian considers the bible as a factual source and there is no primary evidence that Jesus existed, or at least none that isn't held in some Vatican vault!

 

Far too many folk confuse interpretation of events by historians with facts. The two are not the same.

 

I appreciate that, of course I do because i'm an atheist as far as modern religions go, but there are some aspects (particularly in the old testament) that are valuable historically if you look past the propaganda and exaggeration.

[dune]

As he has an MA in the subject I would suggest he has more passion than someone who merely reads history books.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, because based on his naive posts on this thread, he doesn't seem to have the same attitude as Simon Schama (for e.g) who would be astounded by his comments.

[View From The Top]

I appreciate that, of course I do because i'm an atheist as far as modern religions go, but there are some aspects (particularly in the old testament) that are valuable historically if you look past the propaganda and exaggeration.

 

I don't dispute that at all, I'm merely pointing out that they cannot be used as facts as they are not primary sources but certainly are useful when placed in context.

[View From The Top]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, because based on his naive posts on this thread, he doesn't seem to have the same attitude as Simon Schama (for e.g) who would be astounded by his comments.

 

In the same way someone with a MA is somewhat more qualified than a mere enthusiast Schama, Beevor etc are somewhat more qualified and experienced than TLS.

 

It's like comparing apples and pears.

[dune]

I don't dispute that at all, I'm merely pointing out that they cannot be used as facts as they are not primary sources but certainly are useful when placed in context.

 

Which is what i've been saying. The plagues of Egypt was an example I gave of something that was once thought to be a fairy tale by atheists, but recent scientific research has logically tied the events in with the eruption on Santorini. Therefore not only has the bible given us facts (albeit explained as an act of god - which is not surprising in these times) it has given us an insight into the effects of such an event. This is invaluable for the human race!

[View From The Top]

Which is what i've been saying. The plagues of Egypt was an example I gave of something that was once thought to be a fairy tale by atheists, but recent scientific research has logically tied the events in with the eruption on Santorini. Therefore not only has the bible given us facts (albeit explained as an act of god - which is not surprising in these times) it has given us an insight into the effects of such an event. This is invaluable for the human race!

 

You are falling into the trap of taking interpretation of events as fact.

 

A few scientists tied them together which was disputed by others, either view, or neither view may be correct.

[dune]

You are falling into the trap of taking interpretation of events as fact.

 

A few scientists tied them together which was disputed by others, either view, or neither view may be correct.

 

It seems logical from the programme I saw on it, and similar happened (on a smaller scale) in the USA. Also factor in the layer of volcanic ash (dated to the time of the santorini eruption) found in the Nile Delta and the unexplainable in the bible begins to be explained.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Of course it has, hugely for at least 1500 years. One could even argue that the King James's Bible is the singularly most important book ever published in the English language.

 

However, that doesn't alter the fact that no serious historian considers the bible as a factual source and there is no primary evidence that Jesus existed, or at least none that isn't held in some Vatican vault!

 

Far too many folk confuse interpretation of events by historians with facts. The two are not the same.

 

If a scientist says that the big happened 3billion years ago or that a dinosaur is 3m years old people today are more willing to believe it. If Pontious Pilot existed then it is pretty likely that Jesus did. Muslims belived he existed but was not the son of God but just a prophet and that because the new Testament was written afterwards his presence was exploited. The context seems to be right. No serious historian would rule out that he existed but lets face it at what point in history before cameras and artists can we conclude that anybody existed.