hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Every school in the country having 1 bible (what on earth are they going to do with 1 bible?! - if it is a C of E school they will already have one), or a struggling school (of which there are many) getting a new classroom/new desks/sporting equipment/whatever. I voted conservative and would again if there was an election today, but this is a stupid idea which will cost money and achieve nothing. Granted £300k (or whatever it is) isn't much in the scheme of the education budget but that's not the point. But could you not say the same thing about every school being given a copy of Pepy's diary? Or Anne Franks? Or Shakespeare? What is the difference if you are studying it from a purely historical and literary perspective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 What would you say if they said they were sending the Koran to every school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 But could you not say the same thing about every school being given a copy of Pepy's diary? Or Anne Franks? Or Shakespeare? What is the difference if you are studying it from a purely historical and literary perspective? But that's not Gove's agenda, is it. He constantly harks back to the values of the 50s and seems unable to recognise that most of us in this country have moved on. But it serves to pander to the blue rinse brigade that he purports to represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 But that's not Gove's agenda, is it. He constantly harks back to the values of the 50s and seems unable to recognise that most of us in this country have moved on. But it serves to pander to the blue rinse brigade that he purports to represent. And me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 What would you say if they said they were sending the Koran to every school? I would say there is little difference, apart from the fact that Christianity is the historical religion of the UK and thus you could argue that studying the bible has more relevance to the UK and its history (in the same way that we study the Tudors for example and not American presidents.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 But could you not say the same thing about every school being given a copy of Pepy's diary? Or Anne Franks? Or Shakespeare? What is the difference if you are studying it from a purely historical and literary perspective? The Bible isn't rare in schools and is easily accessible already. Also, at that age it is hard to see where the Bible is wrong. They won't be studying it from a purely literary perspective as a 10 year old though. I think Anne Frank's diary, for example has far more relevance to Children in a way they can relate too. If the Bible was a non-religious book, they'd be massive uproar if it was put in Primary school's because of its hateful content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 But that's not Gove's agenda, is it. He constantly harks back to the values of the 50s and seems unable to recognise that most of us in this country have moved on. But it serves to pander to the blue rinse brigade that he purports to represent. I'm not arguing that Gove's agenda (if he has one) is in any way correct. All I'm saying is that the Bible is an important literary document and I have no problem with it being studied in schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I would say there is little difference, apart from the fact that Christianity is the historical religion of the UK and thus you could argue that studying the bible has more relevance to the UK and its history (in the same way that we study the Tudors for example and not American presidents.) I'd be interested to know peoples view on this. I wonder what the reaction would be if the government announced they were sending the Koran to every school and it was slammed as a waste of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 The Bible isn't rare in schools and is easily accessible already. Also, at that age it is hard to see where the Bible is wrong. They won't be studying it from a purely literary perspective as a 10 year old though. I think Anne Frank's diary, for example has far more relevance to Children in a way they can relate too. If the Bible was a non-religious book, they'd be massive uproar if it was put in Primary school's because of its hateful content. Really? Are you sure Andy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Really? Are you sure Andy? Yes. I am very sure that vast stretches of the Bible are hateful, and it would be silly to deny that! Yes, there are some nice bits too, but that hardly helps when it is meant to be the word of God. Either, it's a lie, or God is confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I'd be interested to know peoples view on this. I wonder what the reaction would be if the government announced they were sending the Koran to every school and it was slammed as a waste of money. I consider educating yourself about religions, if only from a historical perspective a worthwhile exercise. People may disagree but it's just an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Yes. I am very sure that vast stretches of the Bible are hateful, and it would be silly to deny that! Yes, there are some nice bits too, but that hardly helps when it is meant to be the word of God. Either, it's a lie, or God is confused. I don't think the entire bible is the word of God. Besides, I have already explained to you how many Christians interpret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Yes. I am very sure that vast stretches of the Bible are hateful, and it would be silly to deny that! Yes, there are some nice bits too, but that hardly helps when it is meant to be the word of God. Either, it's a lie, or God is confused. So what about the passage that says "do unto others as you would have them do to you" Described as the golden rule. Are you saying that is encouraging everyone to hate themselves and each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I consider educating yourself about religions, if only from a historical perspective a worthwhile exercise. People may disagree but it's just an opinion. I agree, it is worthwhile because many DO believe it and it defines many countries around the world.. But contain it to R.E/R.S lessons(and history lessons where it's relevant!) and make sure that Children aren't allowed to just assume it is true. Let them decide for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 It's a better book TBF. Does it not teach many of the same things people are slating the bible for? Sexist, homophobic etc etc..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I consider educating yourself about religions, if only from a historical perspective a worthwhile exercise. People may disagree but it's just an opinion. I agree, even if your not religious, which i'm not, it's still interesting, because religion has shaped our world. Clearly know it alls like Andy dont need to be educated in this way though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 So what about the passage that says "do unto others as you would have them do to you" Described as the golden rule. Are you saying that is encouraging everyone to hate themselves and each other? How about this... for every nice quote you give, I'll find something horrible... Let's start with typical Bible... 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A28-29&version=NIV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I'm not saying there aren't bits in the Bible that are nice, but there are horrible bits and you can't pick and chose and ignore parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I don't think the entire bible is the word of God. Besides, I have already explained to you how many Christians interpret it. Let's be honest, it's all b/llocks written by monks years after the supposed events. And it was written to control and to make money. With the break up of the Roman Empire there was a need for some other form of control. Hey presto Roman Catholicism was born. Much like our attempt of a commonwealth after Labour gave away our Empire. I used to read Terry Brooks novels (better than Tolkein by a long way) and that's kind of biblical because many of the groups derive from legend and myth which might have been true. For example elves and sh/t like that, why not? It's highly likely that other branches of humans lived and died out before documentation of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 How about this... for every nice quote you give, I'll find something horrible... Let's start with typical Bible... 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A28-29&version=NIV It's all about translation Andy. This link provides an interesting read about the hebrew words used and what they meant. It seems this is refering not to a violent rape but consensual sex pre marriage. http://www.gotquestions.org/Deuteronomy-22-28-29-marry-rapist.html Just imagine how much better the world would be if we all lived our lives by the ten comandments. Dont you agree?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 What I would say though, is for or against it, read it. Too many religious people I've met defend it then admit they've never read it, and some against it haven't looked at it either. You don't have to read it all or study in depth, but a curiosity to have a look and get a proper feel for it is worthwhile. Many of us are taught alternative versions of stories at school and throughout life, be it comic book versions, animations or nativities where stories are completely changed. But none of that needs schools to be sent bibles, there are loads around, churches have them, hotels have them and most importantly, LIBRARIES! Teach children curiosity and the passion for learning and they're discover more than you could fit into a hundred syllabuses. I have tried and got bored after about a chapter. It doesn't read well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I'm not saying there aren't bits in the Bible that are nice, but there are horrible bits and you can't pick and chose and ignore parts. It was written 5,000 years ago by an ancient civilsation, of course there will be bits that dont apply to the modern world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 What I would say though, is for or against it, read it. Too many religious people I've met defend it then admit they've never read it, and some against it haven't looked at it either. You don't have to read it all or study in depth, but a curiosity to have a look and get a proper feel for it is worthwhile. Many of us are taught alternative versions of stories at school and throughout life, be it comic book versions, animations or nativities where stories are completely changed. But none of that needs schools to be sent bibles, there are loads around, churches have them, hotels have them and most importantly, LIBRARIES! Teach children curiosity and the passion for learning and they're discover more than you could fit into a hundred syllabuses. Very few people know what the Bible says in full. They pick and chose and have ignorance of vast amounts of it. All pretty low scores in this test - http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/atheists-agnostics-score-best-religion-poll-christian-jewish-muslim-knowlege-survey-11750755 - but ironically Atheists and Agnostics scored best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 It's all about translation Andy. This link provides an interesting read about the hebrew words used and what they meant. It seems this is refering not to a violent rape but consensual sex pre marriage. http://www.gotquestions.org/Deuteronomy-22-28-29-marry-rapist.html Just imagine how much better the world would be if we all lived our lives by the ten comandments. Dont you agree?? Just for Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Let's be honest, it's all b/llocks ....... Well you must be the resident expert on that, given the amount you spout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Very few people know what the Bible says in full. They pick and chose and have ignorance of vast amounts of it. All pretty low scores in this test - http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/atheists-agnostics-score-best-religion-poll-christian-jewish-muslim-knowlege-survey-11750755 - but ironically Atheists and Agnostics scored best! Do you? Or are your claims that it is full of hate based on what you've been told or heard and not experience and knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I'm not arguing that Gove's agenda (if he has one) is in any way correct. All I'm saying is that the Bible is an important literary document and I have no problem with it being studied in schools.in that case they should teach kids about our original religion of paganism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_paganism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 The man is a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I know it's all to do with translations... but the NIV(the one I quoted) is the most popular in the world(215 million sold). And it is pretty specific about what it means in that quote. But suffice to say, on translation, the fact many Bible versions say different things discredits it as a passage to follow even further as quite clearly again, we can't be sure it is what God wants. How about this... for another wonderful Bible law... http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-13.htm Lots of versions there for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Do you? Or are your claims that it is full of hate based on what you've been told or heard and not experience and knowledge? I've read a lot of the Bible. Like I said, lots of it are very nice, but a hell of a lot of it is also nasty and hateful as well as barbaric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 The man is a joke. Has he implemented any changes to help you deal with controlling your class? I remember you talking about being sworn at and being upset that you could do nothing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I've read a lot of the Bible. Like I said, lots of it are very nice, but a hell of a lot of it is also nasty and hateful as well as barbaric. So would you rather the barbaric bits (crucifixion was real Mikey) were omited so you don't get upset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Ooops I mean Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 So would you rather the barbaric bits (crucifixion was real Mikey) were omited so you don't get upset? No, not at all, but we are discussing the nature of the Bible and thus I am giving my opinion on its nature. I am no fan of censoring or banning anything, but to bring back to the original thread, schools are a place for fact, hence why the £375k would be better spent on science books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 No, not at all, but we are discussing the nature of the Bible and thus I am giving my opinion on its nature. I am no fan of censoring or banning anything, but to bring back to the original thread, schools are a place for fact, hence why the £375k would be better spent on science books. Are you saying the plagues of Egypt weren't fact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I've read a lot of the Bible. Like I said, lots of it are very nice, but a hell of a lot of it is also nasty and hateful as well as barbaric. That was how the world was 5,000 years ago. Wars all the time, slavery and etc, ancient civilisations. They didn't agree with homosexuality and other things. It's only been the last 20 or 30 years or so that this has become accepted in society. If only they had question time back then for the locals to join in i'm sure it would have been a much more settled and friendly society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 But could you not say the same thing about every school being given a copy of Pepy's diary? Or Anne Franks? Or Shakespeare? What is the difference if you are studying it from a purely historical and literary perspective? The fact that it's one copy. If students are studying it (or any book for that matter), then fine they will need a number of copies (more than 1) but this is sending out a book that hasn't been requested and if it is needed will almost certainly have already been bought. THe only difference with this copy is that Gove has written a 2 line forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Has he implemented any changes to help you deal with controlling your class? I remember you talking about being sworn at and being upset that you could do nothing about it. No. I still sit in the corner of the room and rock back and forth most break or lunch times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 A good example of why the bible does have some merits as a historical document. The ten plagues The first plague - river water turned to blood The second plague - frogs The third plague - gnats The fourth plague - flies The fifth plague - death of livestock The sixth plague - boils The seventh plague - hail The eighth plague - locusts The ninth plague - darkness The tenth plague - death of the firstborn The pfisteria theory The pfisteria theory provides one explanation of the first six plagues. In 1999 an environmental catastrophe happened in the town of New Burn, North Carolina. The residents woke up to find the waters of their river - the Neuse - had turned red. More than a billion fish died. People working near the river found that they were covered in sores. The cause of this was found to be pollution. The pollution had come from a pig farm further up the river. Millions of gallons of pig-waste had found its way into the river, causing a genetic mutation in a marine micro-organism called pfisteria; turning it from harmless into lethal. The river had been poisoned. John Marr, an epidemiologist specialising in environmental disasters, believes pollution in ancient Egypt could have caused the first six plagues. Pfisteria, or something like it, caused the fish to die, thus turning the river red; the pollution would have driven the frogs onto the land, on land the frogs would die, causing an explosion of flies and lice. The flies could then have transmitted viral diseases to livestock, killing them. The volcano theory Could a volcano have triggered the ten plagues? On 18th May 1980, in north-western USA, Mount St Helens volcano erupted, killing everything within 20 miles. Ash columns were ejected into the atmosphere, circling the globe within two weeks and causing complete darkness over a radius of 100 miles. Could a natural phenomenon on this scale have triggered the plagues? John Marr, epidemiologist, thinks that fall-out of volcanic ash could have produced a toxic bloom of algae in the River Nile; thus setting off a chain of events similar to those produced by pfisteria. Santorini The volcanic theory seems dubious because there is no active volcano in Egypt. But 500 miles to the north of the Nile delta is the Greek island of Santorini. In the 16th century BCE, Santorini was blown apart by a gigantic volcanic eruption that was thousands of times more powerful than a nuclear weapon. It was one of the biggest explosions of the last 10,000 years. The ash cloud from the Santorini blast would have been huge and far-reaching. Could the effects of this eruption have reached as far as Egypt? When Santorini erupted, the wind was blowing in a south-easterly direction, towards Egypt. Samples of Santorini ash have been collected from the sea bed, the heaviest concentrations being in the direction of the Nile Delta. Oceanographer Dr Daniel Stanley, went to the Delta to drill for samples of mud and silt to see if the ash could have reached Egypt. He found volcanic shards that can be firmly related to the explosion. He says: 'I think it would have been a frightening experience. It would have been heard, the event. The blast ash fall would have been felt.' So how could this have been the trigger for the plagues? Mike Rampino, a climate modeller from New York University, has run a computer simulation to look at the climatic effects of the Santorini blast. The ash cloud passing overhead would have completely cut out the sun and plunged the Delta into darkness. This would have been accompanied by the kind of unusual weather seen after volcanic eruptions – lightening and perhaps hail. This would explain two of the 10 plagues – darkness and hail. The ash cloud would have caused temperatures to drop by up to 2ºC, which would have reduced rainfall in the Delta and could have led to a drought. With river levels dropping, the water would have begun to stagnate. Combined with the poisonous minerals that were raining down from the ash cloud, the Nile would have become a deadly cocktail and conditions would have been ripe for an outbreak of further plagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 No. I still sit in the corner of the room and rock back and forth most break or lunch times. Maybe you just dont have any presence or air of authority about you. The best teachers at my school didn't need to do anything to get us to pay attention, they just had an aura about them. Maybe you should become a lolly pop man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 No. I still sit in the corner of the room and rock back and forth most break or lunch times. As I expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Maybe you just dont have any presence or air of authority about you. The best teachers at my school didn't need to do anything to get us to pay attention, they just had an aura about them. Maybe you should become a lolly pop man. Far too much responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 As I expected. Well quite, and as I expected, you're totally naive (naive may be a bit generious actually) for believing ANYTHING that is printed in the Bible, let alone believing in a God. You should pick up a KS2 science textbook some time and fill your little mind with FACT instead of picking up a Bible and filling your head with FICTION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Well quite, and as I expected, you're totally naive (naive may be a bit generious actually) for believing ANYTHING that is printed in the Bible, let alone believing in a God. So you dont think Jesus existed then? Or tha there was a Roman Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Well quite, and as I expected, you're a total naive prat for believing ANYTHING that is printed in the Bible, let alone believing in a God. You aren't a very good history teacher in that case. There re many truths written in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 You should pick up a KS2 science textbook some time and fill your little mind with FACT instead of picking up a Bible and filling your head with FICTION. Keep digging. You have just provided us with an insight into your own ability. I would suggest you do some historical research before replying with another uneducated contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 (edited) Keep digging. You have just provided us with an insight into your own ability. I would suggest you do some historical research before replying with another uneducated contribution. I think the real travesty would have been if Thorpe used the Bible as a reliable historical source. Quote from you earlier on Let's be honest, it's all b/llocks written by monks years after the supposed events. And it was written to control and to make money. You really just are a troll! Edited 27 November, 2011 by Saintandy666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I think the real travesty would have been if Thorpe used the Bible as a reliable historical source. Quote from you earlier on You really just are a troll! What is b/llocks is the the reason for the new testament, and a lot of the content, but there is truth in parts if you read between the lines and remember that it is essentially propaganda. What you need to understand Andy is that we are talking about text written a long time ago, long after events, and as such you cannot rely on it, but what you can do is study the writings in a scholarly fashion to try to see if there is some historical fact in there. The plagues of Egypt is an example of where strange events can be explained and it gives us an insight into what could happen to us. This makes it valuable because it gives us an historical precedent to a cataclysmic event. Do you understand now youth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug187 Posted 28 November, 2011 Share Posted 28 November, 2011 Waste of moneh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 November, 2011 Share Posted 28 November, 2011 What is b/llocks is the the reason for the new testament, and a lot of the content, but there is truth in parts if you read between the lines and remember that it is essentially propaganda. What you need to understand Andy is that we are talking about text written a long time ago, long after events, and as such you cannot rely on it, but what you can do is study the writings in a scholarly fashion to try to see if there is some historical fact in there. The plagues of Egypt is an example of where strange events can be explained and it gives us an insight into what could happen to us. This makes it valuable because it gives us an historical precedent to a cataclysmic event. Do you understand now youth? So you need your facts dressed up in religious mumbo jumbo? Anyone seriously interested in plagues or anything else in Egypt is not going to start with something the Romans cooked up hundreds of years after the supposed event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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