Saintandy666 Posted 26 November, 2011 Share Posted 26 November, 2011 http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/nov/25/michael-gove-king-james-bible Why is this needed? Would be better to send out science text books instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 26 November, 2011 Share Posted 26 November, 2011 The best thing that could be sent to each of the 20,000 schools in the UK is 1/20,000th of Mr Gove, pickled in vinegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 26 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 November, 2011 (edited) Mr. Gove is totally unlikeable. And he doesn't have a clue. He is obsessed with returning to yesteryear when what we need to do is move forwards. Best parliament moment ever Also hilarious... At my secondary school, a lot of the text-books and facilities were older than me, some text-books were from the 80's and parts of the school were literally falling to pieces(it was only meant to be a temporary building built in the 60's)... How will spending £375,000 on these Bibles help anyone's education?! Edited 26 November, 2011 by Saintandy666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 26 November, 2011 Share Posted 26 November, 2011 michael groves is a pratt and a relic of a 1950s society,he needs sacking and replaced someone who can plan for the future rather than living in a bygone era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 November, 2011 Share Posted 26 November, 2011 He looks a bit odd, but I like what he says. He has the right attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 He looks a bit odd, but I like what he says. He has the right attitude. I disagree, as you know. But what of this policy? Do you think it is wise to spend £375,000 on this? Do you think it will help further the education of children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I disagree, as you know. But what of this policy? Do you think it is wise to spend £375,000 on this? Do you think it will help further the education of children? Britain is a Christian country so of course I agree. The bible is a collection of parables that is just as relevant today as it was when it was written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Lungs Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I thought this was going to be about Jordan Henderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Britain is a Christian country so of course I agree. The bible is a collection of parables that is just as relevant today as it was when it was written. During a time of austerity (in particular), there are greater priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 During a time of austerity (in particular), there are greater priorities. I went to a C of E school so i'm biased, but I can't imagine school without a christian assembly and stories from the bible. I think it's worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I went to a C of E school so i'm biased, but I can't imagine school without a christian assembly and stories from the bible. I think it's worthwhile. Shows how out of touch you are then if you think that goes on. I'm meeting Gove again this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I went to a C of E school so i'm biased, but I can't imagine school without a christian assembly and stories from the bible. I think it's worthwhile.But most state schools haven't had christian assemblies for years! My step son doesn't even know the words of the Lords Prayer or any of the hymns we had to sing in our day. Might be better reinstating those than spending over £1/3 Million on a book with his name in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I reckon ALL schools / education would be much, much better if they were entirely secular. Let the churches teach the religions and the schools the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 (edited) At Primary school nearly all my assemblies had(or at least they were) to be Christian based, and at Secondary school... a certain amount were. It's about time we kicked religion out of the education system(except for R.E of course). Telling a child that if they don't do God's bidding, they will burn for eternity in hell is nothing short of abuse. I used to believe it all because I was taught that way, then I grew up and thought for myself. I did not go to a Christian school. Schools have plenty of Bibles already, yet when I left my secondary school in 2009, it still had text books from the 80's and early 90's. Edit: Informative article on school's and Christian based assemblies here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8743072/Most-schools-shunning-law-on-Christian-assemblies.html Edited 27 November, 2011 by Saintandy666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Shows how out of touch you are then if you think that goes on. I'm meeting Gove again this week. C of E schools are still common in rural areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Britain is a Christian country so of course I agree. The bible is a collection of parables that is just as relevant today as it was when it was written. It's unhelpful in an educational environment and amounts to indoctrination by the state. In a school, which is a public arena, only facts should be dealt with... and religion can be dealt with privately at home. And are we really a Christian nation anymore? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6520463.stm Bear in mind that survey was in 2007 and the trends are downwards. The difference between people who say they are Christian and those who actually believe and practice is huge. I would say we are massively secular as a society. Just look to the US if you want to see a Christian nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Shows how out of touch you are then if you think that goes on. I'm meeting Gove again this week. How do you find Gove in person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Our son went to a C of E school, good reputation, regularly over subscribed. Then the head left and they got in someone more religiously minded and loads of people have taken their children out and put them in other schools as they are finding the religious aspect OTT. Luckily our son left last year so only caught the start. All down to the overly religious governors who wanted that sort of head without considering what the parents might want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 And are we really a Christian nation anymore? Yes we are. I'm not religious as such, but I believe in something. I prayed when my old man had cancer, not that it did any good. I think most people are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 (edited) Yes we are. I'm not religious as such, but I believe in something. I prayed when my old man had cancer, not that it did any good. I think most people are the same. God and Christianity aren't the same thing. Maybe you are Deist? Either way, the fact you said you are not religious as such sums up pretty much what I said in the rest of my post. Lots of a people maybe loosely believe in a God, but are they Christian??? No, they aren't. Edited 27 November, 2011 by Saintandy666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 How do you find Gove in person? Affable but totally and utterly clueless about the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Affable but totally and utterly clueless about the real world. I see, strange that he is affable in person when he comes across so badly in interviews, speeches and questioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 We chose a "Good" secular school over a "Good" C of E school after going to have a look around and seeing how they attempted to indoctrinate young minds. Come around to believing secular schools should be the norm as per France. Religious schools, of any ilk, should be fee paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I see, strange that he is affable in person when he comes across so badly in interviews, speeches and questioning. I think he struggles to get his point across partly because he doesn't fully grasp the facts of his brief and doesn't get why people laugh at them. As I said, affable but lives in cuckoo land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I think he struggles to get his point across partly because he doesn't fully grasp the facts of his brief and doesn't get why people laugh at them. As I said, affable but lives in cuckoo land. I think he also comes across as condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 If the Bible wasn't a religious book, it would be banned from modern schools due to its discriminative passages. Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 God and Christianity aren't the same thing. Maybe you are Deist? Either way, the fact you said you are not religious as such sums up pretty much what I said in the rest of my post. Lots of a people maybe loosely believe in a God, but are they Christian??? No, they aren't. I think the point Dune is making is that however many people actually are Christian, The United Kingdom has an official state religion, with the head of state being the head of the church. I always find it odd that although Britain is officially a Christian nation, people generally dislike religion getting into politics, whereas in the US, which is absolutely not a Christian state, it often seems to be welcomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Relgious has no part in schools and to be honest should have no part in education full stop. Its something that if when old enogh some folk want to examine and follow, fair enough, but indoctrinating kids who dont know any better and dont have the minds to question is abuse.. funny how everyone woyuld agree if their child was sweat off to some WACO style cult, yet feel happy to let their kids be indoctrinated at school with what is essentially a 'larger cult' - and we get no choice as tax payers that this sheite goes on... Religeous schools shoudl not be fee paying they should be banned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Something that made me laugh was a tweet I saw recently saying that many people who call themselves Christian treat the bible the same way as the licence agreement on software, i.e. they scroll to the end and agree without actually reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/nov/25/michael-gove-king-james-bible Why is this needed? Would be better to send out science text books instead. If they are studying the historical and literary importance of the document then I believe it has value. After all, no one would complain if the same amount of money was spent distributing Pepy's diary for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I think the point Dune is making is that however many people actually are Christian, The United Kingdom has an official state religion, with the head of state being the head of the church. I always find it odd that although Britain is officially a Christian nation, people generally dislike religion getting into politics, whereas in the US, which is absolutely not a Christian state, it often seems to be welcomed. Depends what you define a nation as... a state institution or a psychological entity. I tend to go for the latter, which brings up the oddity you mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Relgious has no part in schools and to be honest should have no part in education full stop. Its something that if when old enogh some folk want to examine and follow' date=' fair enough, but indoctrinating kids who dont know any better and dont have the minds to question is abuse.. funny how everyone woyuld agree if their child was sweat off to some WACO style cult, yet feel happy to let their kids be indoctrinated at school with what is essentially a 'larger cult' - and we get no choice as tax payers that this sheite goes on... Religeous schools shoudl not be fee paying they should be banned...[/quote'] C of E schools are hardly comparable with waco style cult brainwashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 C of E schools are hardly comparable with waco style cult brainwashing. ... well best not mention the child abuse perpretated in rather too many 'religous schools' then... but as too often you miss the point entirely. Young children are not capable of 'reason' and therefore are not able to question the vailidity of what they are being spun from the 'believers' of ANY religion, be it Christian, Muslim or Judaism (ironically all worshipping the same 'God', yet this 'unholy trinity' cant even stop fighting each other)... its why kids believe in Santa - only they are not told that if that if they dont believe in Santa, or if they explore their own bodies they will end up in Hell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I think he also comes across as condescending. Gove is a f**king psycho - probably the most dogmatic of the current crop. One tory who is actually pretty affable in person is osborne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I think he also comes across as condescending. It's hard to be condescending when you have dozen professionals, at all scales and political colours, laughing at you. Even my true blue colleagues think he's clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 ... well best not mention the child abuse perpretated in rather too many 'religous schools' then... but as too often you miss the point entirely. Young children are not capable of 'reason' and therefore are not able to question the vailidity of what they are being spun from the 'believers' of ANY religion' date=' be it Christian, Muslim or Judaism (ironically all worshipping the same 'God', yet this 'unholy trinity' cant even stop fighting each other)... its why kids believe in Santa - only they are not told that if that if they dont believe in Santa, or if they explore their own bodies they will end up in Hell...[/quote'] That's a sweeping statement if ever I heard one. Additionally, are you suggesting that those who believe in a religion do so because they have been told what to think from a young age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 ... well best not mention the child abuse perpretated in rather too many 'religous schools' then... but as too often you miss the point entirely. Young children are not capable of 'reason' and therefore are not able to question the vailidity of what they are being spun from the 'believers' of ANY religion' date=' be it Christian, Muslim or Judaism (ironically all worshipping the same 'God', yet this 'unholy trinity' cant even stop fighting each other)... its why kids believe in Santa - only they are not told that if that if they dont believe in Santa, or if they explore their own bodies they will end up in Hell...[/quote'] Yep, damn right. My friends sister goes to a catholic school, and when she was asked by the sister if she believed in God and she said she didn't, the little sister started crying lots and was very upset because she believed my friend would then go to hell and suffer eternal punishment. That is abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I think if most Christians actually read certain vast stretches of the Bible, they'd be disgusted by what it says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Yep, damn right. My friends sister goes to a catholic school, and when she was asked by the sister if she believed in God and she said she didn't, the little sister started crying lots and was very upset because she believed my friend would then go to hell and suffer eternal punishment. That is abuse. The other side of the coin to that is that I went to a Catholic School, suffered none of the abuse you mentioned (there were a handful of muslims there too) and your right to your religious views were totally respected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I think if most Christians actually read certain vast stretches of the Bible, they'd be disgusted by what it says. I'm not sure that all christians use the Bible as an explicit set of instructions telling you what to do. Rather, some read it and take whatever inspiration they choose from it that they believe helps them to lead a decent life. That's certainly how quite a few people in my life have used it. I don't agree with anyone that explicitly follows everything that is written in the bible and I don't think that that is what all Christians do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 The other side of the coin to that is that I went to a Catholic School, suffered none of the abuse you mentioned (there were a handful of muslims there too) and your right to your religious views were totally respected. I'm not saying that at this school the right have different religious views aren't respected, I'm sure they are. And I'm not saying that anyone has explicitly said to her directly 'you will go to hell if you do not do this'. But she would have been taught of hell, and the problem I have with R.E lessons retrospectively is that they are taught just like science lessons. No-one mentions the vast factual disputes that contradict hell existing. The daily assemblies and other christian based events go pretty heavy on the children who are too young to reason for themselves. I think the solution is just no Catholic schools, no C of E schools, no Muslim schools, no Jewish schools etc etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I'm not saying that at this school the right have different religious views aren't respected, I'm sure they are. And I'm not saying that anyone has explicitly said to her directly 'you will go to hell if you do not do this'. But she would have been taught of hell, and the problem I have with R.E lessons retrospectively is that they are taught just like science lessons. No-one mentions the vast factual disputes that contradict hell existing. The daily assemblies and other christian based events go pretty heavy on the children who are too young to reason for themselves. I think the solution is just no Catholic schools, no C of E schools, no Muslim schools, no Jewish schools etc etc etc That didn't happen at either my Catholic Primary or Secondary school (and I am not a Catholic.) I think you are generalising about very specific instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 (edited) That didn't happen at either my Catholic Primary or Secondary school (and I am not a Catholic.) I think you are generalising about very specific instances. I didn't even go to a Christian school, and I still feel retrospectively that at my primary school I wasn't really allowed tp reason whether I wanted to believe in God or not, I was just presented with God as fact due to Assemblies every morning, and the nature in which R.E is taught. Edited 27 November, 2011 by Saintandy666 changed 'a' to 'to' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 (edited) I didn't even go to a Christian school, and I still feel retrospectively that at my primary school I wasn't really allowed a reason whether I wanted to believe in God or not, I was just presented with God as fact due to Assemblies every morning, and the nature in which R.E is taught. That wasn't the case at my Catholic schools. I'm not sure what assemblies have to do with anything, what did yours contain? At my school we were taught about Christianity and about evolution. Nobody forced God as a fact onto anyone. The majority of people I still know from school do not believe in God so clearly any brainwashing you believe may have been going on did not have much effect. I went to a private school btw, and it is possible that the state school system presents the existence of God as a fact. If so then I agree that that should not happen. Edited 27 November, 2011 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 That wasn't the case at my Catholic schools. I'm not sure what assemblies have to do with anything, what did yours contain? At my school we were taught about Christianity and about evolution. Nobody forced God as a fact onto anyone. The majority of people I still know from school do not believe in God so clearly any brainwashing you believe may have been going on did not have much effect. I went to a private school btw, and it is possible that the state school system presents the existence of God as a fact. If so then I agree that that should not happen. It's not so much they present it as fact, they just present it. For example, assemblies would be a reading from the bible/simplified version(one of the stories or just something that has some meaning) followed by a prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 It's not so much they present it as fact, they just present it. For example, assemblies would be a reading from the bible/simplified version(one of the stories or just something that has some meaning) followed by a prayer. Never happened at mine. I don't think that was standard practice at all religious schools. We certainly had assemblies at special occasions such as Palm Sunday and christmas (only the christmas one was the entire service compulsory) but it was understood that this was a religious school and as such even though who did not believe in God were required to respect the service and the religious ritual. Many people from my school had no interest in religion but they respected the religious ceremony and attended the christmas assembly as the school required them to. I don't agree with you that it brainwashed any of them in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I went to a C of E school so i'm biased, but I can't imagine school without a christian assembly and stories from the bible. I think it's worthwhile. Every school in the country having 1 bible (what on earth are they going to do with 1 bible?! - if it is a C of E school they will already have one), or a struggling school (of which there are many) getting a new classroom/new desks/sporting equipment/whatever. I voted conservative and would again if there was an election today, but this is a stupid idea which will cost money and achieve nothing. Granted £300k (or whatever it is) isn't much in the scheme of the education budget but that's not the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 Never happened at mine. I don't think that was standard practice at all religious schools. We certainly had assemblies at special occasions such as Palm Sunday and christmas (only the christmas one was the entire service compulsory) but it was understood that this was a religious school and as such even though who did not believe in God were required to respect the service and the religious ritual. Many people from my school had no interest in religion but they respected the religious ceremony and attended the christmas assembly as the school required them to. I don't agree with you that it brainwashed any of them in any way. Sounds like my school had more Christian based stuff oddly! An off the point anecdote now... At my secondary school, there was a teacher nicknamed 'preacher teacher', who instead of teaching the lessons just spouted off about the religion(though admittedly, once people realised he had a tendency to do this, they deliberately probed him). In a science lesson, he told us that God created the world in 7 days and that was fact and sung us hymns. He was a fundamentalist and said many things he should have been sacked for, including that my gay friend would be cast into the eternal pit of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 27 November, 2011 Share Posted 27 November, 2011 It's a vanity project for Gove, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 27 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2011 I agree. If there's one book everyone has access to it's the bible. If it wasn't for tradition, and more people actually read the damn thing, some might mention their disgust at giving such a book to impressionable children, given it's overt sexism, racism, homophobic, violence, bigotry and general teachings of vengeance and wrath. There is the contradictory forgiveness message of Jesus, which is great, but it the damage might be done by then! Be interesting if they could read it with an open mind and see it for what it really is though. In reality you'd imagine those already indoctrinated in Christianity will read bits of it, those in other religions will protest, and the children of rationalists, or indeed just the majority of children regardless of belief will ignore it and go and play in the sandpit. Because they're children, and it's a massive book with tiny words and no shuffle button. You'd have thought if there's spare money it could be spent on text books for important subjects. In fact, surely it can just be spent to keep libraries open which provides everyone with access to books of any topic they choose to read. What could be more fair than that? Damn right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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